In the wake of the Portland train stabbings that left two men dead and one seriously wounded after they tried to stop a white supremacist from harassing several women, Paul Elam — still probably the best-known Men’s Rights Activist online — posted a tweet that spoke volumes — not about the incident itself, but about the utter moral bankruptcy of the Men’s Rights movement.
https://twitter.com/anearformen/status/868917239143178240
When other Tweeters objected, Elam doubled down and began spewing insults — aimed not just at his critics but at the murdered men themselves.
https://twitter.com/anearformen/status/869066210964631552
https://twitter.com/anearformen/status/869068999577006080
In one tweet, he suggested that the victims themselves were the cause of the violence that left them dead.
https://twitter.com/anearformen/status/869064408252772354
In his capacity as a leader of what is essentially a hate movement, Elam has said many terrible things over the years — from his post suggesting that women who go home with men without wanting to have sex with them are “damn near demanding” to be raped” to a short story offering an apologia for — indeed, a glorification of — domestic abuse. These tweets, I think, rank up there with his most reprehensible writings, for two main reasons.
First, as many observers have noted, it was not “chivalry” that killed these men. It was an angry and hateful man with a knife who was harassing women on a train.
Elam thinks it unfair that the tenets of chivalry call upon men to protect women — why should men have to serve as unpaid bodyguards for women, he has often asked? What he doesn’t like to talk about is that these volunteer bodyguards aren’t protecting women from bears — there aren’t a lot of those in my neighborhood — but in the overwhelming majority of cases from other men.
There are a lot of problematic things about “white knights,” as Elam insists upon calling them, but the plain fact is that the “good men” that Elam castigates as terminally stupid would be out of a job if there weren’t so many bad men around harassing and abusing women.
Second, and perhaps more importantly, Elam is essentially declaring war on the very thing that sets us apart from brute nature — our ability to feel empathy for others, including people unlike ourselves. A man standing up for a woman who’s being harassed may or may not be engaging in an act of chivalry but it is certainly an act of altruism and basic human solidarity. It’s driven by the same empathetic and altruistic impulse that led so many non-Muslims here in the US to rush to their nearest airports to protest Trump’s Muslim ban.
This sort of cross-cultural solidarity is pretty much the only thing that can save our country from the hatred and meanness that is Trumpism. We need more empathy, not less.
Elam would rather we raise our sons not to feel this sort of empathy towards women. That’s bad enough. But he’s not the only MRA with an empathy problem. And it isn’t confined to his feelings about women.
It’s not just that MRAs are indifferent towards, if not actively hostile, towards women; they lack empathy towards boys and men as well. Indeed, in one notorious post (archived here; I wrote about it here), Elam literally told the “troubled men” who have turned to A Voice For Men for help to ““go fucking bother someone else with your problems” if they weren’t donating money to his site, which is to say him, as he keeps the donations for himself.
Even though he seems to have taken in literally hundreds of thousands of dollars in donations over the years, he’s never bothered to even try to set up, say, a hotline for men. Instead, he’s set himself up as a sort of ersatz internet therapist for men — he has no actual training as a therapist — literally charging the “troubled men” he claims to be an advocate for $90 an hour to talk to him on Skype.
But he’s not the only MRA who combines a hatred for women with an utter lack of interest in doing anything altruistic for their fellow men.
In the first few years of second wave feminism in the late 60s and early 70s, feminist activists set up shelters and women’s centers and countless other entities designed to benefit women in desperate need of help. In the seven years I’ve been covering the Men;s Rights movement, MRAs haven’t even set up a single hotline, much less a functional men’s shelter. The only notable MRA, er, victory? Being so obnoxious they’ve convinced numerous media sites to shut down their formerly MRA-infested comments sections.
It’s no wonder MRAs feel such hostility towards real heroes. They’re only heroes in their own minds.
@IgnoreSandra
Have you seen this? It won a Hugo a few years ago.
http://aidanmoher.com/blog/featured-article/2013/05/we-have-always-fought-challenging-the-women-cattle-and-slaves-narrative-by-kameron-hurley/
Chessman:
You really do need to learn about a proportionate response. Stop making excuses for a murderer! You are a young man on a very dark path if you believe that the murderer was acting in justifiable self defence.
“Chessman, since you don’t condone bullying of any kind, please enlighten us as to what your response would have been if you were present while these young girls were being bullied.
Ignoring it would have been condonation, so clearly you would not have done that.”
Croquembouche:
I’ve witnessed a couple incidents like this. One time I did intervene, but I didn’t get physical. These two drunk guys were harassing this homeless woman. I think the one was trying to rape her actually, he had her by the arm and she looked paralyzed by fear. I was scared but both of these guys were smaller than me and the one who was the prime instigator was very drunk so i took the risk and intervened. Basically I just walked up about 8 ft away and said “hey man I don’t think she wants you touching her like that”, trying to be as non confrontational as possible and actually these guys backed off and left. Another time I heard the sounds of a pimp brutally beating up a prostitute in an ally. I felt bad but I judged it to be a dangerous situation because of the pimp/ho relationship dynamic, I thought if I intervened, the woman might feel she had to defend her pimp and I might just have both of them turn on me and kick my ass. So I walked by and told a local business owner asking him to call the cops. He said “Is it a pimp and prostitute? Don’t get involved.” I really didn’t feel there was much else for me to do as shitty as the situation was, although looking back I could have walked to the police station maybe to report it. Another time, I saw this guy get crazy on a bus and he had a knife, this is about the closest thing I’ve seen to this story. I was literally about 5 seconds from jumping up out of my seat and kicking this guy, but the main reason I hesitated was actually he was kind of a frail old man and I wasn’t sure if he was really all that dangerous, although he did point the knife at a boy and his mom. Anyway, this white knight stood up to this guy and told him “get off the bus”. When the bus stopped, he just grabbed the guy’s luggage and tossed it out the door onto the sidewalk so the guy got off the bus. The other incident there was this drunk bounty hunter going crazy on this other dude in a bar and this dude was friends with the chick I was hanging with. Anyway, she stood up to this guy to get him to back off her friend, and the cops actually came but since this guy was a bounty hunter, they basically gave him the “professional courtesy” and left without really doing anything. After they left he got in this chicks face. I was sitting there with a beer bottle in my hand about to smash this guy with it if he touched her which it looked like he might hit her. Anyway, then I saw her simply reach out and put her hand on the back of his hand. She leaned in and just talked to this guy in a soothing and empathetic way. It was actually really amazing. His whole posture and demeanor changed when she did that. I saw his eyes get “soft”. I saw his rigid posture relax, basically he went from agro beast mode to purring pussy cat mode in about 5 seconds. Could another man have done that? I don’t think so… I think only a woman’s touch would have that effect in that moment.
So, here is how I think of it:
Men are socialized with this toxic “protector” gender role. The thing is, if we are going to move to an egalitarian or even matriarchal society, it requires women to “woman up” in my opinion. I have seen other instances where I’ve seen women talk men down and calm them down. I think women can’t just expect to have their cake and eat it too. As they get more equal treatment they also have to step up and take more equal responsibility. So the bottom line is I think it’s actually WOMEN who need to pershaps be more willing to intervene, more willing to take on that protector role. Often times that feminine touch can diffuse a violent situation whereas the masculine confrontational approach can sometimes escalate the situation unnecessarily, which is what I think MAY have happened here… Of course I could be way off on that and we will have to see the video to know.
Anyone want to link Chessman to one of the many many many stories of what happened when a woman stood up for herself against an aggressor?
I HAVE AWAKENED. THE WORLD IS….SOMETHING. I DUNNO. DUN DUN DUN APOTHEOSIS!
Nah, didn’t take. Still human. For now.
Looks like I missed another party.
Also looks like I have some belated welcomes to give !
So, welcome, Aulma and Checkmate.
@Sinkable
Oh don’t worry one of the trolls is still around. Tuck in.
@Guest
No I haven’t read that. I was connecting a few dozen data points from different parts of my life. I’m reading it NOW though.
@Sunnysombrera
You seriously think he’s going to accept a thesis that begins with “Women have a right to stand up for themselves?” No. His only issue with the situation is he would have preferred the terrorist here made a successful strike against those two teenage girls. Their deaths is the point he’s arguing towards.
Damn son this comment thread has gotten intense dawg!
Chessman: at last a bit of humanity! Women intervene all the time pal! Look up the murder of Lee Rigby – a WOMAN went up to a man who had just attacked Rigby with a machete.
This has nothing to do with ‘equality’. It is about compassion, and the need to defend those who are less able to defend themselves. I often stand up for people who are being verbally abused. I don’t care if they are male or female, or who the aggressor is. Like you I do not intervene if I feel there is real danger, but I have to say I have never witnessed the kind of thing you describe.
Women can intervene in more situations without fear of attack – I know this from experience, but you have to have the personality for it. It also helps if you are not small. I do not get white knighted, I can assure you – if an aggressor did decide to attack me I think I would be on my own. BUT NO ONE should have to feel that they are not being a good citizen for not intervening – there is no shame in fear.
@Sandra.
Re reading his comment I actually wonder if he’s trying for “women should look after themselves and do it by being submissive.” You know, the abuse-enabling “if women were nicer men wouldn’t hurt them” train of thought.
@Sunnysombrera
I honestly haven’t read his comment. But based on his history, I know his politics.
What he’d really prefer is if the terrorist murdered those two sixteen year old girls, and every man in the car cheered him on as he did it.
But if he comes out and says that, he reveals something to us that we already know: He licks terrorists boots.
Chessman, I would like a VERY specific answer to this question:
What if you were on that train and saw this happening? What if you were sitting right by those girls?
He’d whip out his dick and start yanking it.
EDIT: … Oh, and I forgot to welcome the new posters. Welcome, Aulma and Checkmate! ^^;; I’ll stop rambling about Fallout and post my own ponysona if this thread’s still going by the time I’ve finished Photoshopping her.
@Chessman
So, in the 2 “dangerous” situations you mention, you decided not to help the people being harassed in any way. In one of them a White Knight apparently helped you as well as the woman being harassed because you thought a dangerous situation wasn’t dangerous because of the harasser’s age.
While it’s not required of anyone to help, these stories helped me to understand what you really are. A man who needs the help of “White Knights” to be a good person. A man who is so scared of an “old man” with a knife, that he lets the harassment go on unchecked. A man so afraid of an unknown pimp, that he fails to report a bad situation to the police. And then a woman actually solved her own problems without your help.
@sunnysombrera
Heh, I’m good. This one bores me way too much, I stopped reading his screeds a while ago so I can’t really reply. I’d need to catch up to the whole thread too, and I’m a bit behind on that as well.
I’ma roll one and watch from the sidelines though, ’cause I see the situation is being handled beautifully.
Why is there such a huge overlap between people with stupid opinions and people who don’t know how to use paragraphs?
It’s really odd. I don’t feel like there should be any causal relationship, but it’s just too obvious to ignore sometimes.
Chessman really showing that he little bit coward and also stupid with these storys hes telling. In US or UK yes police also not perfect, but least he can do is call to them! On his phone. Walk to police station? Fuck its 1975 still there in America? Next time you see like this chessman remember phone in your pocket or remember on public phone emergeny service is free to call. Or if you ask that person in a shop, ask his phone too! And call to police. You behave like you not really interested in this people who being beaten – you dont tell like someone who really seen these things…
In other words, when men are violent, it’s women’s fault and it’s our responsibility to fix it.
You know what? A lot of women who are victims of partner violence are manipulated by their abuser into believing that. That the abuser just gets angry sometimes and he’s a good man but she can fix it if she sticks by him and loves him enough and walks on eggshells so he’s never upset.
It never works. That belief, that women are responsible for men’s violence, that men aren’t responsible for their own violence gets three women a day in the US alone killed by their partner. Some gynocracy.
So, fuck you.
The reason men are disproportionately violent is that they are taught to be so. Largely by other men. Women can only do so much to fix it. Men are responsible for about 90% of homicides and the fact that men like you excuse murders and try to put it on women for not being nice enough is not helping. It is up to men to stop defending bullies and rapists and abusers and murderers. You are the one enabling a culture of violence and toxic masculinity.
I am seeing shades of Mellertron in Chessman’s musings, and it revolts me.
I cannot believe Chessman is actively blaming the victims for their own murders/assault.
“We need to see the video.” Fucking ghoul.
He is reprehensible.
He also needs to fucking GO AWAY.
Notice how many other people the seagull has blamed for the actions of violent men?
It’s the fault of white knights. It’s the fault of women for not being soothing enough. It’s the fault of the cops. Never ever the fault of the people who actually commit the violence. Society is at fault for encouraging men to stand up for women but it’s not at fault for creating violent bullies in the first place by rewarding their behavior at every turn.
Oh, and even if he’s not a fan of Trump, my point from last night still stands.
Chessman,
When Trump pushed other world leaders out of the way to get a better photo op position, would those world leaders have been justified in killing him? If not, why not?
Yeah, I’ve noticed…and he blamed the toxicity on women, of course.
Because it’s ALWAYS a woman’s fault. ALWAYS.
I am so tired.
@Chaturanga
So, that was utter nonsense. W… Were you tryna imitate us? Cos that wasn’t even close. Even the surface level shit was way off
Those wondering if NowtMare has been here before? I noticed this familiar mangling of two phrases he doesn’t understand:
Compare with (regular?) reader CaptainAmazing, who wrote in on Mother’s day:
https://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2017/05/15/mgtows-ban-mothers-day-because-women-are-the-rectum-of-civilization/
Huh. Good eye, Newt.
Even the scare quote placement is the same.