So the fellas in the Men Going Their Own Way subreddit are trying to figure out why women visit their horrid little subreddit and sometimes even post mean things about them there. A fellow called VanDerVaart has an explanation. Well, two of them:
Yes, that’s right. Some of the women who seem on the surface to despise the whiny misogynistic shits who populate the MGTOW subreddit are actually really into them, or at least really into all the cool shit MGTOWs own because they don’t have to waste their money on, I dunno, buying women lobster dinners in hopes of scoring some sex.
And so these wily resource-hungry ladies are going to try to slime their way into their lives in hopes of … scoring a lobster dinner in return for sex. Or maybe these evil females will just sneak into their apartments to steal their cool-ass gaming chairs or something. Because LL Cool C: ladies love cool chairs.
@ Chessman:
That’s… deeply stupid. Women don’t like being catcalled. You’re also confusing “feminist” with “unattractive woman”, which I assure you is unrelated. For instance, I’m a feminist, and I’m a man. Most of the actresses and female singers that you find attractive (assuming you’re a hetero man with typical tastes) are feminists.
Some women you find unattractive are also feminists. Some women you find attractive are not feminists. See how this works yet? Physical appearance and belief systems are not connected. And in general, we don’t care who you find attractive.
Seriously, do you people ever stop to think about anything fundamental to your worldviews? It’s all nonsense on top on nonsense, perpetuated by manchildren spewing noxious hatred. You’re this tribal band of manchildren who have convinced each other that all women are icky and evil, and you try to force every new data point into that model.
Let’s break this into two parts.
What did MGTOWs do that’s so horrible? Well, they utterly despise women, and they can’t seem to shut up about that. Seriously, every fucking thread and article and discussion by MGTOWs is full of misinformed misogyny. Misinformed because it’s not actually based on reality, but rather on these shared delusions about what women think and feel and want. Misogyny because, well… just go look up the word.
Is there a hateful cyber-bullying campaign by feminists against MGTOWs? No.
Seriously, no.
Mocking the shit they post about isn’t cyber-bullying. And if it were, then you Miggies would be hypocrites, no? You’re continually writing about how awful women are (see above).
Also, this isn’t cyber-bullying. Cyber-bullying is when you Miggies dox women, and fuck with them on social media, as you so often do. This isn’t symmetrical, sport; feminists aren’t doing this to your side. You guys are the cyber-bullies, but as is so typical, anything and everything that you do that’s wrong or hateful, you project onto the objects of your hate.
Citation needed for any dehumanizing abusive things posted by David or by the commenters here. You’re projecting again.
And no, there isn’t a double standard. We don’t support that, but you do.
You do it, then complain about the imaginary cases where we do it.
Here, I’ll even help.
When you guys claim that “pretty much the whole existence of women” is based around
sapping and impurifying all of your precious bodily fluidstaking your stuff, you’re dehumanizing them. Women actually don’t generally care about your stuff. They have actual real lives of their own, and interests, and jobs, and friends, and family, and they already have their own stuff. Even among those who DO covet your stuff, that’s only a tiny part of who they are. Their whole existence doesn’t revolve around your stuff. Seriously, just stop for a second and try to think that one through; it’s utter nonsense.It’s dead easy to find examples like that in pretty much everything Miggies ever write.
Now it’s your turn. Citation please?
* crickets *
GamerGate was a vehicle for internet misogynists to attack women. MRAs and MGTOWs loved it. Sure, some people in GG weren’t MRAs, but most were. In a Venn diagram of those groups, there’s a huge overlap.
Ahhhh, the classic Whataboutism. Change the subject, whine about something unrelated, and then demand that everyone care ONLY about your issue.
Women are being murdered and abused and vilified by men. It’s an epidemic. Your response? “Oh but what about MY problems?” Yeah, that’s what I thought.
No, no, yes, and no.
Nobody’s suggesting that it’s good that men are committing suicide. Nobody’s happy about that. This site doesn’t promote that. Feminism, as a movement, don’t promote that.
Yes, this site is anti-misogynist, and always has been. MGTOWs are misogynist, so this site is and has been anti-MGTOW.
If you’d stop hating women and just go your fucking way already, that would change.
If you just spent your time and energy advocating for men’s issues instead of attacking women, that would change.
But I get it. Self-awareness is a rare commodity among your lot.
And finally, no, this site is not remotely anti-male. See, being male and hating women isn’t actually causally connected. I’m male, and I love women; they’re great! This site isn’t attacking me. False equivalence again there, pal.
Yes. All the damned time.
Seriously, try learning about feminism from actual feminists, instead of just believing the shallow propaganda by people who hate women. Feminists are the MAIN group of people who do exactly what you’re asking for there.
Ahh, the irony.
Um, I take responsibility for my own sexuality by accepting that no one else is obligated to partake in it, and that I have no right to inflict it on anyone else without their consent.
And, uh, I have no interest in sex with ‘strange men’. I’m fine with my Magic Wand and some ‘erotic romances’, thank you.
I’d like to add a slight addendum, that we are all fucking for the idea of men who don’t want to enter relationships with women, and who want to concentrate on self improvement, and generally go against the harmful social norms enforced upon men. Live your life. I will cheer you all the way. However: that’s largely not what MGTOW do. They tend to, instead, concern themselves with what women are doing, or not doing, and how they can blame women for all of their ills.
As we constantly say: we would love it if MGTOWs would actually go their own way. Yet they do not, because that’s not what they actually want.
The MGTOWs are as much about misandry as misogyny. The picture they paint of “men” (and note “men” and “women” are always monoliths to these people) is horrific. IF I thought “men” (that it, the monolith) were actually like that, I would be forced to become a lesbian. The kind of lesbian that hates men.
Fortunately I know that, while there are some pathetic little men who are very much like MGTOWs think all men are, they are actually pretty rare. So all I need to do is develop a filter that will figure out which are the good guys and which are not worth the time to tell them to fuck off.
@Mish,
I certainly will! ?
I recently read an interesting concept for testing if someone correctly understands an ideology they oppose. For example, let’s take an anti-feminist. Get them to write on a topic from the perspective of a feminist, and then get someone who identifies as feminist to read it. If that person believes it was written by a fellow feminist, then they pass. I get the impression that most anti-feminists would do terribly at this.
@ dlouwe:
Absolutely! And this is the view not only of the people here, but of mainstream feminism. Gender roles in our society are messed up, and they’re often bizarrely restrictive and hurtful. Feminism (as a movement) is in favor of people finding ways to be happy with themselves and their sexuality, and breaking the confines of social expectation in so doing. Men AND women are both harmed by the current (patriarchal) model that MGTOWs embrace while railing against; feminists oppose that whole worldview.
It’s just so deeply ironic to hear MRAs complain about men’s issues while perpetuating those same issues; and to hear them rail against the feminists who actually do care about those men’s issues (and everyone’s issues!) and want gender roles and expectations to be loosened.
And, honestly, it’s hard to respect anything about the MRA approach. It’s rooted in hatred and ignorance, and it’s utterly self-defeating.
Yeah, that’s an excellent test.
I have never read anything by an MRA that expressed an accurate (even if wholly basic) understanding of anything relating to feminism. Seriously, never.
A lobster dinner would be nice, but you gotta hit MGTOWers where it really hurts– go after that sweet PVC waifu collection!
Drop-in trolls and sealions always want to know WHAT ABOUT THE MENZ. Well, it’s feminism, so the menz are outside the wheelhouse. It so happens that many feminist principles help men when implemented, but I deeply resent the unspoken expectation that feminism is useless unless it helps men.
Feminism is about helping women. Not men. I’m sad that men commit suicide sometimes, but suicide prevention for men is not feminism’s job. A side-effect of feminism would reduce male suicide, but male suicide prevention is not the objective and that’s not a terrible thing.
If Chessman wants to help prevent male suicide, there are ways to get involved in that. None of them involve haranguing feminists. As long as Chessman is busy haranguing feminists, my conclusion is that the deep concern for male suicide is entirely feigned.
@Collateral Thought
I think the closest I’ve seen was some of the fake Feminist twitter accounts set up by 4chan; when restricted to 140 characters and considered in a vacuum they did a semi-passable regurgitation of Feminist language. (though less passable when given any amount of scrutiny)
But yeah, I also can’t think of any serious writings from MRA-types on Feminism that has managed to pass the “not even wrong” bar. It outs itself as an entire movement based on false premises.
dlouwe:
a rousing thought experiment, indeed, my good man!
on that note… …i would like to get collatoral thought’s source for this idea that mgtows “embrace a patriarchal model” with a citation from a mgtow source… seems like kind of a strawman misrepresentation of mgtow theory to me…
Goddamn it, do I need to bust out the citronella candles again? That persistent high-pitched whine…
Direct From MGTOW sites and reddit feeds mostly
but you cant actually directly cite a single source…am i getting this right…?
sorry i don’t think you really “get” mgtow if you think it is about some “patriarchal model”
i think mgtow men get feminist theory pretty well though to speak to the point from dlouwe
if you tried to pass of “hey guys lets do our patriarchal model” to actual mgtows as an understanding of mgtow theory you would be sniffed out immediately in
dlouwe’s game model i am pretty sure
@Chessman
Mainlined from the subreddits…
This has evolved beyond sealioning and entered Gish Gallop territory, I think.
@ chessman
Would you accept the ‘angryMGTOW’ YouTube channel as a qualifying source?
Here’s a video (found after less than a minute of Googling) that advocates for a ‘return to patriarchy’.
https://youtu.be/npfe-ov4y74
And there seem to be plenty of others in a similar vein.
Hey, Chessman, I want proof that MGTOWs are not following a patriarchal model. Go hop off and find me some links showing that their model is non-patriarchal. Otherwise I believe nothing you say.
Since the vast majority of all the MGTOW reddit threads are about how awful women are, how only men are capable of love, and how it’s funny/good when bad things happen to women (or young girls), do you really think you can argue that MGTOW does NOT favor a patriarchal system?
Seriously, point me to one example of this blog snickering over the deaths of young boys, or calling men inhuman.
Well I think its pretty clear that all we’re going to get from chessman is a bunch of goalpost moving and “no true Scotsman” fallacies .
Thanks, @Bina, now I have
He’s a trolllll man….
(trumpet riff)
He’s a trollll MAN
Running through my brain!
*to the tune of “Soul Man” if it wasn’t obvious
Oh look, an MGTOW arguing in favor of patriarchy: https://www.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/comments/6d5y9f/women_dont_need_rights/
Boy, that was hard to find!
http://i2.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/lomet2.png
How’this, for a start? Want to keep asserting that MGTOWs don’t support patriarchy?
@dlouwe – that is a fascinating idea/experiment and it makes me wonder if I could do a credible job articulating the main points of Republican/religious conservatism.
(spoiler alert: I kinda think I could).
I get plenty of catcalls, unfortunately. I have no way of knowing whether or not they’re MGTOW but I know I don’t need it to happen more often.
Of course, when misogynists troll feminist and/or women’s sites, it’s pretty much the internet version of a catcall. Considering the vast multitudes of MGTOW trolls we’ve had here, I hardly think you refuse to catcall us.
Look at the sidebar where it says recent posts. Click on the one that talks about an MGTOW saying women shouldn’t inherit property. Then shut up.