It was a busy day on the Incels subreddit yesterday. While some subreddit regulars celebrated the third anniversary of “incel killer” Elliot Rodger’s murderous rampage — they call it “Saint Elliot’s Day” — others lashed out at the victims of a fresh tragedy: the terrorist bombing of the Ariana Grande concert that left nearly two dozen dead, many of them teenage girls.
In a thread ironically titled “A moment of silence for the victims in the UK,” dozens of Reddit’s self-described “Involuntary Celibates” mocked those who died in the explosion, dismissing most of them as “Stacies” or “future Stacies,” using the standard Incel slang for hot “normie” girls who only date alphas.
![throwawaylookism 8 points 22 hours ago I feel sorry for the kids but i have no empathy towards all the stacies that were there. They got what they deserved. permalinkembedsavereportgive goldreply [+][deleted] 10 hours ago (2 children) [–]ASS_F??♂️THOT PATROL?♂️? 2 points 11 hours ago Those little girls were gonna be Stacies in the future anyway](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/in2.png?ssl=1)
Some lashed out at Ariana Grande as well.
![pashminascarf❤❤❤❤❤ 19 points 1 day ago All of Ariana Grande's songs are about getting dicked by Chad. permalinkembedsavereportgive goldreply [–]CheesyFedoraHeightcel. Currycel. Dickcel. Total failure. 14 points 1 day ago Yeah seriously. Like her song Side to Side. Fuck that shit. I don't give a fuck about any of the whores who got blown up while listening to that filth.](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/inc5.png?ssl=1)
Those who bothered to try to justify their hatred did so on the grounds that “Stacies” — and women in general — hate incels and would be happy to see them suffer or die.
Yes, that’s right. His first response to this horrific tragedy was to feel sorry … for himself. And he wasn’t the only one.
![acenosk 8 points 1 day ago Women would genocide incels if they could. permalinkembedsaveparentreportgive goldreply [–]Beer_GrillsIncel Philosopher 3 points 1 day ago Middle class women were some of the largest supporters of the Nazi party in Germany during the 1930s.](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/inc9.png?ssl=1)
A purer example of projection can scarcely be imagined.
Indeed, elsewhere in the same thread, a fellow incel echoed Nazi language in an attempt to explain why the victims in Manchester had it coming to them.
Some of the regulars took out their anger on the Redditor who started the thread in the first place, taking aim at his highly controversial opinion that no one deserves to be blown up in a terrorist act, “not even stacies. We need more love in this world not less.”
As the regulars saw it, this was a pathetic bit of “virtue signaling” from a man hoping that expressing bare sympathy for female victims of terrorism would “get his dick wet.”
(You can click on that last one to see a larger version.)
I can only repeat what I said in my post yesterday about “Saint Elliot’s Day,” that the Incels subreddit may be the scariest place on Reddit. It’s astonishing to me that the people who run Reddit feel it is in their own, or anyone else’s, best interest to provide a forum for such twisted hate speech — a forum that glorifies suicide and self-hatred and encourages the same misogynistic obsessions that led Elliot Rodger to commit his murderous rampage.
It’s not healthy to think that murder is funny, and any ideology that promotes such thinking is deeply destructive to everyone it touches.
Get help, guys, for your sake and the sake of everyone around you.
*Pukes*
Is it time for the “Are we the baddies?” sketch yet? Or have we passed that point?
Come to think of it, not sure if it’d be worse to have this guy make a little…visit…to these incels
Or this one:
Neither one would be pleased with these guys, I think.
ETA: though I think Mustang sums up the feelings around here in this thread pretty well.
Not so different from the response of r/misanthropy
https://www.reddit.com/r/misanthropy/comments/6crjam/arianna_grande/
(you can see that misanthropes are not racists or sexist and strive to hate all people equally, YMMV whether it makes them better than “incels”).
@Redsilkphoenix
If we’re gonna get all anime nerdy about this…
I would happily let this guy have a word with all of these guys.
*Sigh.* This is exactly what Victoria was complaining about in the other incel thread. “Oh, these people are raging assholes? They must be neurodivergent! No other explanation is possible!”
“Get help, guys, for your sake and the sake of everyone around you.”
Firstly, I condemn any violence and form of that low attitude, regardless by whom.
I just want to bring a perspective (as best I can do) from my own experience. I got the impression that people declaring themselves as feminist regularly behave in a mean way towards someone’s pain just because of their (mens) shitty gender they were born with and couldn’t even choose. It’s like reversing the already-shitty sexism toward women, just because it’s cool or so I don’t know.
I am actually not even masculine/ don’t favor masculinity because I personally “hate” it, yes the behavior not gender.
It’s just that as I keep reading those mean and very dull words from someone, that you first believed is on the “good” side, like feminism. Yeah reading the mean often hurtsome statements just stimulates me even more into self-loath.
I may guess that many of those shown mental derelict men could have been saved from that very toxic behavior in first place. Having no one to talk to is the issue. And that is just a part of reality where people tend to look away from. Ok don’t get me wrong. I am not a fighter. And creating awareness and such crap has been become impossible due stupid mra’s being a great dick towards men anyways. Do not expect any stand-up by me for any men’s issues. I am just saying something that maybe worthy or not.
Right, I am not allowed to talk about any sort of pain. So that pain grows more into your soul over the years. Sexist interactions toward men being addressed just creates two forms of notably reactions.
The first is your standard play-down and ridiculing by feminists who believe you’re an mra and the second is by ignorant people like the mra’s or mgtows themselves who are desperately trying to indoctrinate those men like me with their sexist, nonsense theories.
Oh yeah there is even a third reaction: silence.
It feels humiliating when you get called and armada of mean slurs just because you wanted to talk about your pain. Mainstream feminism being a pioneer in slur calling men. We men have to put up ourselves with violent men and sexist expectations from society. So average hetero women are also not a possible dialog partner, because they will respond with homophobic views if you happen to be non-masculine and bisexual like me. But that’s it. We don’t have any partners who listen to our suffers and scars because the world values gender-tribes (yes even feminists) considerably more than individually. Fact.
“Get help, guys” Face it: We have no one to talk to. And please stop with that distinctively referring to “therapists”. I don’t like to talk to them, they are objective, forensic and analytical. Of course and they are into $ too as our whole life turns around. But that is my personal decision, not wanting to hold anyone back liking therapy. If it helps you than go for it.
So if it weren’t to that constant arrogance and self glorifying mindset among feminists themselves (best example TERFS), or mgtows and mra’s being not damn obstacles by pressing their arses into my face by making men’s suffering to an impossible matter, then those men like me having no one to talk to may have had a healthier development in life. . But do not mix me with those “incels”. I just got my silent self-harm and timidity. I am a “taker”, those not fighting back and getting wrecked. Those.
I may be persuaded to push that button regardless of Chad’s actions.
So some people in r/incels are gloating about kids and teenagers being killed. Especially the girls, because girls are evil. Self-awareness is where???
On a lighter note, when I see the name “Stacey” I always picture the character from The Baby Sitters Club, who seemed nice enough.
Of the original four:
-Kristy was the ideas person and the sporty one
-Mary-Anne was the gentle and sensible one
-Claudia was fashionable – and also East Asian while not good at math (gasp! how subversive!)
-Stacey was popular (as in actually likeable, not evil-girl popular), and embarrassed that she had diabetes, because diabetes is apparently embarrassing
For these incels, the fastest way to get their dicks wet would be to take more frequent baths.
I made this to express m feelings ;P
http://i.gifntext.com/LqDTRKZBIP-you-can-click-on-that-to-see-a-larger-ve.gif
The Incel subreddit, where “Terrorists should not blow up children” is considered virtue-signalling.
And yet it’s the fault of women that they cannot get laid.
How is it possible to construct an entire identity around a) not having sex and b) blaming everyone else alive for it?
From what I’ve seen on the Reddit, they actively resist any suggestion that their involuntary celibacy is a correctable state of affairs. That is, correctable through any means under their own control. I get the impression that even if, against all odds, they encountered a woman who found them desirable, there would be something that made her desire unacceptable.
It’s almost as if they really, really don’t like themselves. It reminds me of the Heinlein/Lazarus Long aphorism that sin lies in hurting other people unnecessarily. Hurting yourself unnecessarily isn’t a sin, it’s just stupid.
Just remembered – my husband told me that one of the things that he found most appealing about me when we met was that I seemed to be entirely satisfied with my life. I wasn’t hoping for someone to complete it, or fix it, or make it worth living. But I was open to sharing it, and with him.
Wow. Just wow. I’m reading this as I listen to the words of a mother who lost her 15 yr old daughter in the attack.
Y’know what. I’m a woman. And I spent years – yes years – as an “incel” while married. Was it painful? Yes. It was. Indescribably. But that never made me lose my humanity or empathy. Nor does the pain of that rejection (which often coincided with abusive humiliation) come even close, not within a mile, of the loss of a child.
And despite being a woman/girl* , I didn’t always find it easy to make a connection with the opposite sex and a lot of that was because of my own inability to make emotional connections and express vulnerability because of childhood trauma. I was lonely but I didn’t know how to bridge the gap. So, I do actually understand their plight. It’s real, but it’s no fucking excuse for behaving like that.
I know others have said it – but hateful, bitter and revelling in the pain of others is not a good look. Y’know how I get laid now on a fairly regular basis? By BEING NICE, by thinking about my partner(s) and by making a connection that isn’t completely selfish. And I’m closer to 50 than 40 and I’m fat. I have a long term lover who I think is hot** and I’m dating someone new who is also pretty hot and is an actual scientist in the same field I got my degree in which is so much fun and who I feel hopeful about – even though it’s early days. (They know about each other). I know the new guy would probably drop me like a stone if I expressed opinions like these incel redditors (as he should) and the long-term guy would probably ask me to get some help and vice versa.
*from their point of view, I know folks here will understand that loneliness crosses gender
** he’s the closest to a “Chad” I’ve ever had on more than a one week basis, but he’s not an asshole.
Endorsement of murder isn’t that far from incitement, yet this still doesn’t violate reddit’s terms of service.
Piece of Shit,
So, what you’re saying is it that we had better be nice to men or they’ll hurt us. Or at best revel in it when someone else hurts us.
There are a lot of commenters here of all genders who experience pain. People with mental illness or disability. People who feel suicidal. Abuse or rape survivors. People who’ve had to deal with bigotry. People here are generally sympathetic to people who are in pain and we don’t care what gender they are.
What we are not sympathetic to is the notion that not getting laid justifies misogyny, rape or murder.
As I said earlier in the thread, I’ve seen people try and offer sympathy and help to entitled sad boner whiners countless times. On this and other sites. No amount of compassion or soothing cures them of their misogyny. They choose to be misogynists.
I agree that toxic gender roles too often prevent men from seeking help when they are hurting. Although it was sure as hell not feminists who caused this state of affairs. But if you expect me to be nice to someone who wants me tortured, raped or murdered simply because of my gender, then fuck you and your respectability politics. You seem to have chosen your name well.
Seriously. If you look at comments from a bunch of men celebrating the murder of women and girls and your response is to wank about how mean feminists and/or women are, you really to reevaluate yourself
http://i.imgur.com/RjWDs.gif
@piceofshit
Your argument/explanation, such as it is, is very difficult to follow, but you seem to be saying feminists are being mean to men because of their gender. That’s not even remotely the case in this thread. We’re “being mean” to a particular bunch of men who have expressed the view that the victims of a suicide bombing “deserved” their fate because they wouldn’t have slept with those particular men. Think about that for a moment!
Secondly, to address another item on your laundry list, TERFs are most definitely NOT welcome here. If you’d hung around us for a while before putting your oar in, you’d realise we have several trans* commenters in our community. We are not radical feminists, we are not calling for the death or complete disempowerment of all men, we are here to call out sexism and misogyny wherever it occurs.
Thirdly, “incel” is a completely bogus concept. No one is involuntarily celibate. The men on the incel sub reddit think they are being denied by the particular women they want to sleep with, not that they are being denied by all women. They have a very weird set of standards for women and when they can’t find someone who’ll have sex with them who exactly matches those standards, they become bitter and attribute the ENTIRE BLAME for their lack of sex to OTHER PEOPLE, specificallly the particular women they want and the so-called Chads. The simple reality of the world, though, is that almost anyone could find a good sex partner on any given night, if they wished. It’s the bizarre fixations on appearances and purity the self-proclaimed incels have that prevent them from the many, many fulfilling relationships they could be experiencing right now. But that would mean seeing women as more than just dick holsters, so I guess it’s pretty unlikely.
Celibacy is a choice. I am celibate, not because I’m not interested in sex but because I prefer it inside a fulfilling relationship and right now I don’t have time to build a romantic partnership. It’s a CHOICE. No one is forcing it on me. If I was so inclined, I could hook up tonight, but I’m NOT so inclined.
And I don’t believe “get help” is helpful unless the person sees and understands that their ideology and world view is holding them back. Any kind of help is only useful if one recognises the need for change and is willing to put in the hard and painful work to do it.
So take your self-righteous piety about “pain” somewhere else. We do not put up with requests for emotional labour here. If you’re unhappy about an aspect of your life, only you can do something about it. If you do actually need help to fix it and you’re unwilling to ask professionals, don’t expect other people in your life to do anything about it for you. That’s totally disrespectful.
Lucrece out.
@piceofshit
Tell me, what part of the pain you mentioned is somehow so unique to hetero men that it excuses treating an entire gender horribly as a result?
If women who’ve been grossly abused by men can go through life without believing that the entire gender should be locked up and deprived of rights as a result, I think men suffering from ‘mean feminists’ can do the same.
@piceofshit
One last thing:
There are women who do respond that way. There are many more women who do not. I suggest you broaden your acquaintance to find some of the second type.
Not fact. The world is changing and gender-tribes are altering too with the recognition more widely that gender is a spectrum, not a binary. Feminists (and good grief! it sounds like you found out everything you know about us from cynical stereotypes and old propaganda posters!) are much more likely than anyone else to welcome those of different genders and sexualities. You need friends you can talk to, men and women who are like you. That’s nothing to do with sex, it’s about companionships and building your place in a community. EVERYONE has to do that. It’s hard work.
I’ll repeat this because it’s important though – do not ask women to perform emotional labour! We are sick to death of it! Whether it’s a partner or a friend, we aren’t there to look after your feels or your problems in life. We may choose to do it, and if we do, be grateful not dismissive. But do not expect it.
@ piceofshit:
Where do you get that impression; from men who complain about feminists, or from actual feminists? I strongly suspect it’s the former, whether they’re MRAs or MGTOWs or so-called incels. Certainly, the feminists I know don’t act that way.
I’m male, and I’m proud to be a feminist. I post under various ‘nyms on multiple sites where feminist issues are discussed. I NEVER feel targeted with hatred by feminists simply because I’m male. If I say something stupid, then I’ll be corrected (for which I’m glad), but that’s about it.
There is however a pervasive myth among the MRM that feminism is locked into the second-wave form of misandry. The guys who argue this will quote Andrea Dworkin at length, but seem curiously unaware that most modern feminists strongly disagree with this view, and have disagreed for decades now, and that mainstream feminism moved on a long time ago from those views.
Regardless, I recommend that you spend some time reading the articles here and the comments to form a more informed opinion about how THESE feminists – the ones you’re addressing – actually act.
OK, I think it’s essential to distinguish between two kinds of mean statements: a) mean statements about all men or about masculinity itself, and b) mean statements about men who literally hate women and celebrate the deaths of innocent young girls in a terrorist attack, or mean statements about the kinds of misogynist views that bring these men to think and speak this way.
A lot of people on this site, and on others, will make the second kind of mean statements; I will myself. I find that attitude loathsome and I decry it quite often. But as for the first… nope. Not here, and not on the other sites I frequent.
If someone points out that toxic masculinity is harming our society, I agree. If someone points out that men do a lot of horrible things to women, and that women have good cause to fear violence from men, and that men benefit from a system that gives them disproportionate social and economic and political power – and strive to keep things that way – I agree. I don’t argue that I’m not like those men or that I don’t share their views; I don’t pull out a #NotAllMen, because I don’t feel that I’m being attacked by those statements, and I already know that I don’t want to be like those men, and that I don’t see myself as being like those men. If you’re worried that women complaining about misogyny or abuse or harassment or threats of violence or actual violence are speaking about you… I think you should spend some time reflecting on that.
A lot of men AND women feel this way. But… you’re literally talking to people right here, some of whom are trying to engage you in a positive discussion about your feelings and perceptions. You’re not alone.
Having said that… how you approach a community will shape the responses you get. The more self-pitying you are, the more closed-minded you seem, the more you misrepresent the community, the harder it will be to have constructive or pleasant dialogues. I’m not calling you any of those things; I’m just trying to offer some advice on how I’ve approached various communities in the past, and what worked best for me.
You absolutely CAN talk about your pain. The people who tell you otherwise are generally buying into toxic masculinity and machismo, and in my experience the vast majority of such people are other men. Certainly feminists are the least likely of any group I’ve encountered to feel this way. However… again, how and when you express your pain will affect how empathetic others are towards you.
As I said above – and this is VERY GOOD ADVICE, I swear – you really ought to spend some time reading previous articles and discussions here. A lot of people who post here have pain in their lives, and many have struggled with that pain, and with how others accept that pain, and accept them in general. This community tries hard to be supportive of such discussions. Because a lot of these topics are very painful, people can be quite defensive sometimes. Many of us have filters that can block our ability to understand where someone else is coming from when we don’t share life experiences. So there can be a little friction from time to time, but that’s just because we’re human.
Respectfully, this is entirely the opposite of my experience in every regard. The people who have the cruelest, most hurtful, most hateful things to say about others are bigots who feel secure in their power. That is to say, misogynist and/or sexist men are the ones who feel the most comfortable saying horrible things about others.
I’m not one of those men. You aren’t either. So pointing this out isn’t an attack against you anymore than it’s self-flagellation for me. 😉
Mainstream feminism today is intersectional. It deals with the many ways that people can be disadvantaged by society, including not only gender issues, but also racial, social, economic, religious, ableist, and many other issues. Mainstream feminists today absolutely don’t oppose men; they oppose the horrible things that some men do, and they oppose the rape culture that supports those horrible things, and they oppose bigots and Nazis and MRAs because those people spread hate through their beliefs, and declare themselves opposed to feminism.
Anyhow, I hope you do spend some time genuinely trying to learn more about how feminists act and think today, and specifically how the feminists HERE act and think today. I’d expect that you’d find you feel less alone, and that you might read some things that will help you understand how other people struggle with the same issues you raised (and other similar issues, and other wholly dissimilar issues).
Take care.
Over on r/incels someone tried to call us out by making the point that yesterday 34 Libyan refugees drowned and there’s not been an outpouring of grief for them. Now that’s not an unreasonable observation. Perhaps a better example would have been that 68 children were killed by a suicide bomber in Syria the other day and that barely made the news. So there is a valid discussion to be had about how and why some deaths seem more important than others. So, did his fellow incels help show what hypocrites we are are by expressing sympathy to the poor drowned migrants? Well, what do you think?
Shorter pieceofshit:
Am I being unfair or uncharitable? Possibly. But your first response to “internet assholes celebrate children being murdered” could have been something other than “why don’t you appreciate how sad my life is?”
@shit
What everyone else said
Also, I’m a cis male. And bisexual (sorta, it’s complicated). And not especially masculine. And a virgin…
And nobody here gives even a single fuck about any of that. None of the commenters. Literally zero people have given me grief about that stuff on this website. Nor have they failed to listen to my problems when I deign to share em. Tho, I usually don’t go outta my way to impugn the folks from whom I’m seeking sympathy, sight unseen, but maybe that’s just me. Seriously, this place is fuckin great and the peeps are even greater!
In conclusion, I take some umbrage with your characterizations just now. And, hey, I’m a friendly kinda chap, so I’m willing to put this down to misunderstanding and not being in the right state of mind (notably, your vision clouded by self pity) to effectively discuss this stuff. Or I can just write you off. Both work equally fine for me. All depends on how you deal with the criticism you’re getting. Good luck, and take your time 🙂
I wasn’t going to say anything on the incels’ comments above, I was too angry, but I’ve just watched Charlotte Campbell’s address about her daughter Olivia, and there was more dignity and courage in her minute’s speech than any of those posters will ever demonstrate in their entire fucking lives.
“Get help, guys, for your sake and the sake of everyone around you.”
Hypocrite.