While the rest of the Western world grapples with the horror of the Manchester bombing, Reddit’s incels are looking back three years to another terrorist massacre — and lauding the angry young incel who carried it out.
It’s been three years since a disturbed loner named Elliot Rodger murdered six and injured fourteen others in an extended rampage in Isla Vista, California, leaving behind a series of videos and a book-length manifesto detailing his deep hatred of, and equally intense desire for, women. Had he been able to get inside the sorority that was his primary intended target, the carnage would have likely been far worse.
Naturally, many of Reddit’s incels — self-described “involuntary celibates” — have embraced Rodger as an incel hero. In a series of posts in the Incels subreddit today, the regulars are celebrating what they call “Saint Elliot’s Day.”
In one thread with several dozen upvotes titled “Happy Saint Elliot’s day! The third anniversary of the day of retribution!” numerous Reddit incels sing the praises of the man they hail as the “supreme gentleman.”
A Redditor called thebillstone really, really wishes that Rodger had been able to get inside that sorority.
Naturally, some visitors to the subreddit are appalled by the celebration of a murderer:
![DigDugDactylus 27 points 6 hours ago* Do people here seriously support a serial killer? Edit: I thought people exxagerated, so I decided to check. People here need help permalinkembedsavereportgive goldreply [–]justendmefamThe only thing left to do is to dog 1 2 7 points 4 hours ago He's wasn't a serial killer first of all and second of all plenty of females admire serial and other killer](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/el5.png?ssl=1)
But in fact not all incels think Rodger was a hero. Some are appalled to see fellow incels lionizing a mass killer — something that, at the very least, makes incels look bad.
![Know_What_Fvck_ThisRacecel: Enemy to All 5 points 8 hours ago Tbh, fuck this faggot, he's the reason we're associated with school shootings. permalinkembedsavereportgive goldreply [–]xxxrivenmainxxx 0 points 2 hours ago school shooters are true heros](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/el6.png?ssl=1)
Others look down on Rodger because his body count wasn’t higher, and not enough of his victims were women.
Still others complain that Rodger was simply too good-looking to be a true incel.
The Incels subreddit may be the scariest place on Reddit.
@Francesca
What is revenge but inflicting pain upon the world? Exquisitely glorious pain, but pain nonetheless xD
I don’t really write self inserts, but a lot of my characters are based on aspects of me at different points of my life. The villain of the current thing I’m trying harkens back to my most misanthropic periods, and most of my heroines are awesome because they analyze what’s going on, draw a conclusion, and act on it. Plus, all of them are women. All of them. I want it to be an unspoken rule that unless mentioned otherwise, the smart reader assumes a given character in my work is a woman.
@Francesca
Also, I’m going to be off my hormones for a week. I’ve been fighting my pharmacy into filing for a prescription refill for about a week and a half, and I finally got them to do it. Since I got them to do it, I learned of a firm requirement by the doctor for my blood to be drawn and sent to a lab before I can get a refill.
I took my last day of pills today. The earliest I can get my blood drawn is friday. The latest the lab results might be back is Tuesday. Add another day for the pharmacy to screw things up. Off my meds for a week. And it actually isn’t my fault.
If the pharmacy had figured out how to use a fucking fax machine a dozen days ago when I first started talking to them, instead of telling me they sent the refill request five times while not sending it (Or not caring to send it to the right fax number), I would have been aware of this requirement in time to do something about it.
So, fuck transmisogyny.
Thanks everyone for expanding my knowledge on the US cultural phenomenon that is cheerleading. Some eye-opening facts.
@WWTH (and everyone else on sorority films etc)
Random aside – my brain inserted a “clad” that my eyes did not see. Anyway…
It’s things like this that make me give side-eye to the “male gaze” (not that it exists, but that I’m judging it). I’m bi and might otherwise expect to find scantily clad women running around titillating. But the context puts me off. Because they’re generally running around in fear. I don’t find scared people sexy. Not judging people who find playing with these emotions exciting in their consensual sexy times, but I don’t. My theory for why this (sexily dressed women running for their lives) is like a tide of cold water to my libido is that I’m failing to be the observer as I’m too busy identifying with the fleeing women. And I don’t find my own terror sexy.
In the same way, my prevailing thought on seeing tv/films with women in bikinis at a pool party with erect nipples is “poor love, she looks freezing, will no one give her a cardigan?”. That probably speaks more to my Britishness (we don’t really go in for outside pools, as they’re only usable for three days a year) (also the cardigan thing), but it does leave me baffled.
We all objectify people from time to time. What am I saying? I suppose that the “male gaze” is more complex than “straight men think women’s bodies are pretty”. It’s not biological, it’s socially constructed and it has all kinds of unintended consequences for how we all interact with each other.
Wow that was an essay. Given I said 3 hours ago that I was going to bed early, I’d better fulfil at least the bed bit – early has long since passed. Good night all.
@Ellesar
Because America is an asshole country with an asshole culture. Being an asshole is the national religion.
@Sandra
I don’t mean to write self-inserts, but apparently more of me leaks into some of them than I realize.
Indeed. And much sympathy for the interruption of the hormones.
@Weatherwax
Yes. The male gaze is yet another outgrowth of a culture of misogyny and toxic masculinity.
My best guess is that Hollywood writers probably mostly come from affluent suburbs where social status and wealth is a bigger deal and they just assume that it’s the default everywhere. I also think that teen movies and shows were very heavily influenced by John Hughes movies. That seems to me to be where the teenage cliches come from.
Or maybe I’m the one who’s an outlier? I don’t really know. I went to an economically and racially diverse city public school. There were certainly kids at my HS who were more socially skilled and had more friends than others, but it was a big school and there were friend groups for just about every type of person. And there was plenty of overlap between groups too. Teenagers are assholes so it was hardly some sort of utopia, but it was definitely not like the movies.
@Sandra
I’m convinced they’re just purposefully trying to prevent you from obtaining your ‘mones, which is fucking terrible. That’s all. No complexity to that whatsoever.
The medical sector still treats transpeople like garbage. It’s amazing, really, that this is even allowed to happen, but we’re special cases, isn’t it, because we’re fucking degenerates who cause the collapse of society, to quote some guy on the Twitter verbatim.
Or, if you listen to the Hoteps, black transwomen like myself are weapons engineered by Society to Destroy the Black Family.
Popping back to say
@IgnoreSandra
That sounds awful. As someone on meds that you aren’t supposed to skip on and off of (SSRIs), I’m right there with you.
The one time I ran out (I fucked up my repeat prescription; not surprising when you consider my anxiety makes it difficult to do the sensible thing but, oh, the irony…) by 3-4 days, my local pharmacist checked his records and gave me a week’s worth in advance of a prescription. But I’m guessing that’s a luxury afforded by the NHS, which may not be available in countries which operate “health for profit”. Or he was a god amongst pharmacists. One or the other.
Anyway, fuck transmisogyny.
Yeah, if this creepy and entitled male gaze stuff was a natural consequence of finding women attractive, you’d see lesbian, bi and pan women objectify women a lot more than you do. Yet male attracted men objectify men a lot more than I see male attracted women do. So it seems most likely that men are just socialized to connect violence and dehumanization with sex.
Interesting take on a complex topic
Hiding in plain sight: how the ‘alt-right’ is weaponizing irony to spread fascism
Experts say the ‘alt-right’ have stormed mainstream consciousness by using ‘humor’ and ambiguity as tactics to wrong-foot their opponents
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/23/alt-right-online-humor-as-a-weapon-facism?CMP=share_btn_tw
@Dalillama
@WWTH
What you said.
And now I really am going to bed.
@Kat
I’ve had similar discussions with other like-minded people before this article was put to print; I believe I might even have mentioned it here.
You can only say “I was only ironically pretending to be a Nazi for the lulz” for so long before you are actually just a fucking Nazi. I’ve never bought into the “IT WAS JUST AN EPIC IRONIC TROLL LOL” cover story Internet Nazis use for their activities.
Inevitably, when you confront them, they have two standard responses:
A.) “It was just an epic troll kek ironic maymay, you guise! Why you gotta be such a butthurt snowflake, le top lel kek?”
B.) “First of all, you’re infringing on my free speech, so you are actually the Nazi. And anyway, what has Africa done for us recently…? Why can’t you debate with me honestly about how white people are actually superior? We did a Civilization and whatnot and wrote books and built castles and made the Stock Market. Can you disprove this? I am trying to have a civil debate, and you are being a butthurt snowflake fascist liberal. I am the real victim here.”
Sometimes if you’re lucky you get both. And you end up having to actually debate a fucking Nazi about how murdering millions of people is immoral, which is the worst possible position to find yourself in.
Someone here said not to debate with them, ever, and I’m leaning towards that these days.
ETA:
Secondly, people are dumb for fucking buying into the ‘epic meme’ shit even for a second.
I play CSGO and other online FPS games like Battlefield and COD and the Hitler memes and Nazi Germany memes are out of fucking control. Not a day goes by that I’m not in a game and someone with a name like [1488]GAS_THEM_ALL and an Adolf Hitler avatar isn’t in the game screaming about n-words and f-words and etc.
On ordinary forums you have people naming themselves after rich dead Nazis like Albert Speer, and when you confront them about it they inform you that this doesn’t mean anything and that it’s a meme of some sort.
I saw through all of that years ago, since about 2008, when the internet nazis really kicked into high gear. I realized that they were always just fucking Nazi and were not joking about it at all in any sense.
So, my advice to you all is to lawyer up and hit the gym.
@IgnoreSandra
That’s is terrible.
It’s likely they’re deliberately dragging their heels because of who you are. Condolences.
@weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
I guess we both are since the schools I’ve been to from Preschool to Highschool were racially and economically diverse.
@Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
It’s shit like this that validates my policy of “trolling > debate” when it comes to these chucklefucks.
Fox News Poll: Trump approval down, voters support special counsel on Russia
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/05/24/fox-news-poll-trump-approval-down-voters-support-special-counsel-on-russia.html
And a commenter has this to say:
I was pretty surprised to see that lots of the commenters seem to hate Fox.
@dr. ej YESS BAND KIDS REPRESENT!! I used to whinge a bit about how students on sports teams were exempt from P.E. requirements but we go out into the sweltering heat to take impossibly large, rapid steps WHILE USING ALL OUR AIR TO PLAY INSTRUMENTS WITH OUR MOUTHS*, all with impeccable precision, and that’s not “physical” enough. 😉 Still feel lucky to have had that experience though. All things band, including marching, were the best part of high school for me hands down.
*drumline and pit get lots of cardio too <3
@wwth
Indeed! I always had my circuits crossed a bit by the "stupid vapid mean girl" trope in particular. I knew I was supposed to hate and/or look down on the pretty, popular girls, and misogyny leaves few young brains untouched even in budding feminazis, but plenty of them were honor students and athletes and volunteers and musicians, and perfectly civil to me in my scruffy weirdness. One of the head cheerleaders was also a top intellectual contributor in my English class, AND really nice to and appreciative of me. As Peggy Orenstein writes, being kind and accomplished in ADDITION to being beautiful and popular have become girls' obligations. Yeesh! My plate was plenty full with 10 AP classes and band and clubs, I can't imagine if I'd also had to implement a freakin beauty regimen.
No surprise, it was the boys who did most of the bullying I saw. Most of the vanity, dismissiveness, and snobbery came from clever or "rebel" boys. Only boys ever teased me for having body hair or being weird or gross. The nerdy straight boys I hung out with were a fun community to be part of but honestly didn't support each other or me all that well, and seldom shied away from objectifying women in my presence.
My best and most lasting high school friendships were with a small handful of girls and queer boys, though I didn't appreciate them enough at the time and would deprioritise spending time with them for the sake of feeling like I belonged in that group of boys, as inferior a social experience as it often was. I also never had a female "group" like I did a male group, and that would have been cool. I feel like I very much bought into the "cool girl" mythos as a youngster. Maybe a lot of young women are tricked into thinking they can't trust each other and will only benefit from male friendships, and certainly young men seem to be discouraged from showing empathy or vulnerability.
Anyway, more diverse high school experience representation would be nice. 😀
@Oogly
If you think about it carefully, what does one really stand to gain by debating a Nazi?
They want to murder millions of people. That’s it. You are finished. There isn’t really much more you can do at this point.
You might as well press a sharp knife really hard into the meat of your hand while sternly telling it not to cleave your flesh.
This continual red herring about “bUt We MuSt DeBaTe tHeM!” is ultimately useless. What use would that do? You can’t convince someone not to murder another person, that has a 99% failure rate. You might as well try to lift up a cathedral with your bare hands.
Perhaps we’re supposed to gain a seat at the super sekrit Nazi club by showing our goodwill? Fat fucking chance if you’re a minority…and, anyway, if the undertone is that debating Nazis will make them have mercy upon you with they rise, that’s a deeply disturbing plot twist; firstly because it suggests they will win no matter what, and secondly because it subtly implies that we should be trying to gain credence in their ranks, which legitimizes them further.
Nobody anywhere should debate a fucking Nazi. Don’t do it ever. Don’t even talk to them if you can manage it.
@Fran
Indeed, debating nazis is counterproductive.
@Dali
Pretty much. As I said, I think the idea that these Nazis are definitely not le top leling with us seems to be gaining traction.
I’m just furious that it took this long for people to realize it.
I feel like we might have screwed up really bad this time and allowed something to happen that we’re going to have a hell of a time putting it back in.
@ weatherwax
I used to frequent Ilkley Baths. That was an unheated open air swimming pool, on Ilkley Moor. A place immortalised in a song about someone freezing to death.
It was as cold as you’d imagine. Went lots times, but if you cumulatively add up all the time I actually managed to stay in the water it probably amounts to about three minutes.
(I think the rest of the time I was trying to restart my heart)
Went for a dip in Hampstead Heath on one of the hottest days of the summer last year – 20 minutes of shivery paddling was plenty and we were out of there.
In my particular corner of the colonies, at least if you live in a fairly affluent Suburbanite area, swimming is fetishized to the point where if you don’t know how to swim and aren’t in a pool at some point in time, you are considered extremely odd.
Swimming schools make money like crazy over here. There is a reason why almost everyone I know in reality is capable of swimming.
Also, we spend a lot of time at the beach. You should see the beach nearby me.
You guys consider people walking around in swimsuits with their nipples out to be weird? That’s standard midsummer shit around here.
This place is full of vapid, awful people, though. I am not trying to say my area is ideal and excellent and the American Dream and etc, just that you do, in fact, encounter that sort of thing here.
If you guys visit me sometime we can all hang out at someone’s pool in extremely hot weather wearing the tightest shit ever. Bring all your Mammotheer pals. It will be exactly like those teen movies except we’re all adults, but yeah.
@ boogerghost
Well that should be enough to top up on Weil’s disease.
@ fran
This might appeal to your sense of humour.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ri-UE0pEomA
@Francesca
I admire your effort.
@Alan
Thanks!
That is exactly what all the popular parties look like around here, pretty much. Well, except for the last part somewhat.
Like, the very last time I was somewhere at a house party, there was a pool and everything and skimpy swimwear and etc.
@Francesca Torpedo, Femoid Special Forces Major
I find it especially funny when people say I should give them a chance. I did, with my former best friend, for a whole damn year when he stopped his act of half way decency. All it did was make me hate them all the more and make me irritable just thinking about it.
Funny part, he’s Vietnamese like me and still said all that fascist bullshit.