While the rest of the Western world grapples with the horror of the Manchester bombing, Reddit’s incels are looking back three years to another terrorist massacre — and lauding the angry young incel who carried it out.
It’s been three years since a disturbed loner named Elliot Rodger murdered six and injured fourteen others in an extended rampage in Isla Vista, California, leaving behind a series of videos and a book-length manifesto detailing his deep hatred of, and equally intense desire for, women. Had he been able to get inside the sorority that was his primary intended target, the carnage would have likely been far worse.
Naturally, many of Reddit’s incels — self-described “involuntary celibates” — have embraced Rodger as an incel hero. In a series of posts in the Incels subreddit today, the regulars are celebrating what they call “Saint Elliot’s Day.”
In one thread with several dozen upvotes titled “Happy Saint Elliot’s day! The third anniversary of the day of retribution!” numerous Reddit incels sing the praises of the man they hail as the “supreme gentleman.”
A Redditor called thebillstone really, really wishes that Rodger had been able to get inside that sorority.
Naturally, some visitors to the subreddit are appalled by the celebration of a murderer:
![DigDugDactylus 27 points 6 hours ago* Do people here seriously support a serial killer? Edit: I thought people exxagerated, so I decided to check. People here need help permalinkembedsavereportgive goldreply [–]justendmefamThe only thing left to do is to dog 1 2 7 points 4 hours ago He's wasn't a serial killer first of all and second of all plenty of females admire serial and other killer](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/el5.png?ssl=1)
But in fact not all incels think Rodger was a hero. Some are appalled to see fellow incels lionizing a mass killer — something that, at the very least, makes incels look bad.
![Know_What_Fvck_ThisRacecel: Enemy to All 5 points 8 hours ago Tbh, fuck this faggot, he's the reason we're associated with school shootings. permalinkembedsavereportgive goldreply [–]xxxrivenmainxxx 0 points 2 hours ago school shooters are true heros](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/el6.png?ssl=1)
Others look down on Rodger because his body count wasn’t higher, and not enough of his victims were women.
Still others complain that Rodger was simply too good-looking to be a true incel.
The Incels subreddit may be the scariest place on Reddit.
@LG Thank you so much for giving me some validation. I was really starting to feel like my feelings on things that affect me didn’t matter because of all this backlash.
@Victoria, @LG
The thread speaks for itself. Readers can draw their own conclusions.
Never once did I attack @Victoria or tell you that your feelings were invalid. I went out of my way to say that your feelings absolutely are valid and that ableism should be called out when it happens.
I disputed only that it happened in this particular instance and I took exception to someone being castigated in multiple posts for something they did not say or imply.
@Iseult said, in their OP that you strongly objected to:
That was the point at which you began multiple postings accusing Iseult of dog-whistling slurs about ASD.
I do understand, as I’ve said multiple times, that this is a very tender topic for you, and for good reason! I do understand that false presumptions are something that you have had to fight against your entire life. You don’t know me; I have similar types of issues and also tend to see them in a lot of interactions. You’ve made a lot of assumptions about my neuro-typicalness and I’m not sure how you’ve come to those conclusions.
But in this one particular case, I don’t think you’re right. I think you’ve made an assumption that Iseult meant something they didn’t mean and didn’t imply. I’m not negating your experience or your feelings, but I can read and my opinion and feelings are valid, too. It’s not always you against the world, Victoria. I’m not against you. I’m with you on this war, but not this particular battle.
The thread does indeed speak for itself and does not need to be litigated further, IMHO.
Thanks Ohlmann, she’s definitely going in. Did you have a name in mind?
I was thinking of asking you about mechanics once I’ve got a firm grasp on them, as I know you’re into game mechanics design. Would that be okay?
@EJ
Chef – The Culinary Automaton
“I’ll produce any meal you require, good sirs, whether it is roast beef, foie gras or the minced meat of your most dreadful enemies. Anything but a grilled cheese.”
Chef is a punch card operated EZ-BK series culinary automaton, built with an integrated multi-purpose food preparation station that can function as an oven, slow cooker, steamer and smoker. Chef was once employed in the military as a field kitchen, but was later relieved of his duties upon failing to accept the punch card recipe for grilled cheese sandwiches (instead offering to make cucumber tea sandwiches, much to the chagrin of his annoyed charges). Since then, he has worked as a freelance chef and occasional bouncer; his cleaver and tenderizer hand attachments effective against men and choice meats alike.
Duke Barkington – Mercenary
“Bark bark!”
Duke Barkington is a top hat wearing attack Yorkie and the result of an industrial experiment gone awry, his head covering concealing a cutting edge suite of medical instruments that have dramatically boosted his intelligence. Originally built as a low cost alternative to human conductors, Duke Barkington was fired from his occupation after biting the fingers off several too many ticketless airship freeloaders albeit only after a hard fought lawsuit by his employer. Duke Barkington then fell on hard times, pursuing the life of a poor street performer before finding his true calling as a soldier of fortune. Expert at infiltrating the homes and hearts of his enemies, Duke Barkington has earned a well deserved reputation as a dependable and quite cuddly asset for those with more money than morals.
Can you imagine if we celebrated Saint Aileen Wuornos Day?
They wouldn’t think that was very funny, I think.
@PoM – got it, thank you.
Unfortunately it is too late for me to edit/delete my last comment. Disregard.
@EJ : I am a software engineer, who have worked on game, not directly a game designer.
I do have a grasp on game design, ’cause you sort of need to in thoses field, and because I am sort of a boardgame geek. I am also unsufferable on thoses topics it seem (the last time I collaborated on a game a lot of people disliked my intervention), and at least not to be taken as a full professional on the topic.
She was called Margaret … with an english first name that I can’t remember on the life of me. Which is sort of the ultimate shame, to forget the name of its own
Valentine,
https://kiwifarms.net/threads/we-need-a-sub-forum-like-r-incel-on-reddit-for-us-to-post-about-the-real-truth-about-life.29267/
I don’t like it much, either.
@dreemr
I’m not in charge of anything here. Just my opinion.
@Victoria
I’m sorry, but your disability does not give you the right to force other people to agree with you.
By all means call someone out if you think they have been ableist, but this is a matter of opinion and feelings. You think one thing, other people think another; there isn’t any right answer.
Sometimes we reach a consensus in a debate like this, and sometimes we don’t, but no one person is in charge of what language means.
@abars01
Interestingly enough, the Elliot Rodger murder spree was what led me to this site.
I agree with you that one of his real problems was that he felt that BEING someone (good-looking, wearing the right clothes, driving the right car, etc.) was what made the women (specifically the blonde, young and white kind) come to HIM. It’s entitlement at its finest. He thought he didn’t have to DO anything to get that thing (companionship/sex) he wants and clearly thinks he deserves. The folks who post in the incel thread seem to share this problem.
The other mindset he seemed to share with incel posters is envy. I can’t remember the specific phrase in his manifesto, but it really stuck with me. It was about how he saw some other person (which I think was of the “wrong ethnicity”, but I can’t really remember) with a “hot woman” and felt enraged. Even through just words I could feel seething, blinding rage he felt at someone having something HE didn’t have but clearly deserved.
This mix of entitlement and envy, coupled with seeing sex/relationships as some sort of status symbol, was what fueled Elliot’s rage, and this mix is obviously/painfully present in the folks at the incel thread. It’s a toxic stew that will most likely create more Elliot Rodgers.
(In case my post to Valentine wasn’t clear, I meant to convey that I don’t think that David photoshopped the Elliot photo above.)
Don’t know if this is o/t or not but anyway, do any Chicago based Mammotheers want to be in a play about ju-jitsu Suffragettes?
http://www.theatreinchicago.com/auditions/industrydetail.php?AuditionID=6298
@ David F – there’s roles for guys too 🙂
@ Hippodameia:
Sadly, it seems likely. Poor little girl. I’ll check out that book. Thanks.
@Bina:
Yes to everything you wrote. It seems like his motivation was possession. If we can believe anything he said, that’s what he seemed to believe about himself, too (or maybe I’m confusing what he said about himself with what he told the FBI about the killer who turned out to be Gary Ridgway). The suicide hotline part of Bundy’s life especially fascinates me. Was there anything real there? Ann Rule said he saved lives, but her answer to the question “Wasn’t Ted Bundy really nice…underneath?” is a flat No. I can’t comprehend such compartmentalization, working hard to help strangers while abducting and killing others.
@Valentine: I’m sorry the manipulation of the ikon upset you. It doesn’t please me, either, though ikons do not have the same place in my beliefs that they do in yours. It appears to come from a chan-type forum. Best wishes.
@Citizen Rat : my hypothesis is more that he believe that there is a magic recipe that, if executed correctly, give you a girlfriend. It’s a batardization of computer science applied to real life ; I guess thoses incels are also terrible cooks for the same reason.
He did thing he had things to do. But he was wrong about what ; in particular, he though that if you fulfill an arbitrary set of condition it’s good.
The good people at r/incels are commenting on this thread. Apparently everyone is misinterpreting them.
Commenters here have already covered the Ted Bundy stuff, but for the sake of posterity, I’d like to drill down into thebillstone’s ghoulish comment to tease out a couple telling passages:
Okay, I felt squicky typing that sentence, but I think it’s worth pointing out how much cultural reinforcement this idea has. Even billstone himself has enough self-awareness to acknowledge this in the context of slasher films, usually bad ones that even a bad movie aficionado like me avoid for how bad they are. From Black Christmas on out, I would need more than two hands to count all the sorority-theme slasher films that have dropped over the years. By contrast, I really can’t think of one where a sorority was painted in a positive light. From the same group of people that claim video games have no influence on people, it’s clear that this trope has rubbed off on Mr. Billstone to the point where he doesn’t even see sorority members as human. It’s rather grotesque to see in the written word.
Like don’t celebrate mass murder? What a cruel intellectual yoke we live under!
From what I’ve seen, every poster on an incel forum who says something respectful of women or objects to the misogyny of other posters is called either some variation of normie (if male) or whore (if female). Similar to the find the find the moderate MRA challenge, I would like to challenge any of the incel redditors reading this to find me a non-misogynistic incel. Show me a regular who says respectful things about women without getting downvoted and insulted for it. Show me a site where misogynist hate speech gets one banned.
Just so we’re clear, saying that a woman is worthless if she’s not a conventionally attractive virgin is misogynistic. So is thinking that a woman owes you sex if you’re nice to her.
Calling people not human is a great way to demonstrate respect and certain proof that they are not extremists.
Gussie Jives,
It’s also silly to use horror movies where sorority girls are victims as proof that sorority girls are bad. I figure that the biggest reason for this trope is mostly that it gives the filmmakers an excuse to show hot scantily women running around. Like most movies, slashers often pander to a straight male audience and ignore the rest of us.
It’s also worth putting these movies into the context of the time they were released. The 1980s. It was the era of over the top conspicuous consumption. Popular culture very much demanded that everyone be hot and rich with trendy clothes and fancy cars. At the same time, with Reaganism and Thatcherism, income stratification was accelerating in much of the English speaking world and living up to consumerist demands was harder than ever. Of course, there was a backlash against this. As sorority girls symbolize both wealthy people and beautiful women that men are told they can’t get if they don’t fit the wealthy consumerist mold, they are obvious targets for the backlash. These movies don’t just cater to the straight male boner. They pander to straight male resentment.
As usual, manosphere film analyses are about as shallow as possible. I’m still laughing about the time someone said that It Follows was a red pill movie.
It’s also worth noting that the director of Slumber Party Massacre was a woman and a feminist and it’s actually a satire of the trope. Although I don’t think it was a very successful satire because it’s pretty indistinguishable from the real deal. Not technically a sorority movie because the characters are supposed to be in high school, but it’s pretty similar to the sorority girl slasher.
Well we mustn’t misjudge them. I think we owe an apology to ElliotsSecondCo…Oh.
FWIW @Victoria I see exactly where you’re coming from and I understand why you reacted the way that you did. I didn’t get diagnosed until adulthood and I’m sure at least some of my former classmates have me in mind when they say ‘not autistic, just awkward, you know’.
I think for people who don’t have the actual experience of living with autism or other developmental disorders, etc. it’s very difficult to see the mountain of cultural assumptions we see behind seemingly innocuous comments. To them, it seems very clear that there are people out there who are just cursed with being socially awkward, and that remarking on that is a neutral thing. It isn’t a notion they’ve ever challenged. Thus the confusion…
Just finished page 2. Feels like it should be page 5 or so; I hate when these disagreements happen so I’m not going there.
abars01 – I don’t think incels are lazy so much as they are simply entitled shits. They think they’re the pinnacle of human evolution and achievement and tell each other so constantly and at length. They refuse to consider changing themselves in any way and demand that the rest of the world conform itself to their preferences and desires. I know none of that precludes laziness, but I still believe it’s mostly entitled thinking.
Also, I hope your date is wonderful!
I’m not going to say much because I don’t have many spoons today. But I wanted to say @Victoria, I’m sorry for your pain. I am not autistic; I do have multiple disabilities that currently make me, well, a basement-dweller.
And I get what you are saying. Often it’s not any particular instance so much as the recurring appearance of words, phrases, or ways of framing a topic. These things have cultural baggage that not everyone is going to see or feel, and denying the existence of that baggage is rubbing salt in the wound.
Fwiw, I’m not accusing anyone here of ill intent. And most of the time, this us my favorite comments section on the internet. But what Victoria is saying resonates with me on a personal level. This kind of conflict in the comments makes me anxious because the pushback and denial makes me feel invalidated, too.
So, Victoria, I am sorry for your pain.
@GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
That’s why I’ll never appear at school reunion: I’d laugh at such insincere confessions like
“there were a lot of girls that would have liked to go out with Gene, but he was so shy you knew he’d never get up the nerve to ask”
It seems to me that you idealize your female schoolmates. You’ve just told that you used to hang out with guys only and there were terrible to you. It’s much more like if you hang out with girls more, they’d be terrible as well.
Y.