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Reddit Incels celebrate misogynist mass murderer Elliot Rodger on “Saint Elliot’s Day”

“Saint” Elliot Rodger

While the rest of the Western world grapples with the horror of the Manchester bombing, Reddit’s incels are looking back three years to another terrorist massacre — and lauding the angry young incel who carried it out.

It’s been three years since a disturbed loner named Elliot Rodger murdered six and injured fourteen others in an extended rampage in Isla Vista, California, leaving behind a series of videos and a book-length manifesto detailing his deep hatred of, and equally intense desire for, women. Had he been able  to get inside the sorority that was his primary intended target, the carnage would have likely been far worse.

Naturally, many of Reddit’s incels — self-described “involuntary celibates” — have embraced Rodger as an incel hero. In a series of posts in the Incels subreddit today, the regulars are celebrating what they call “Saint Elliot’s Day.”

In one thread with several dozen upvotes titled “Happy Saint Elliot’s day! The third anniversary of the day of retribution!” numerous Reddit incels sing the praises of the man they hail as the “supreme gentleman.”

Wind7788 4 points 5 hours ago May he Rest In Peace. Let us not be sad. Today is a day to celebrate. Today is a day to celebrate.. the retribution.

mcfill 14 points 8 hours ago Good night sweet prince.

EconomicsofSexthe a fucking slug 3 points 4 hours ago He was the only one who ever did something for incels, the only one who ever stood up for us

DOWNVOTESBAMAFLAIRS 13 points 6 hours ago RIP. If only he had been able to take more people with him.

A Redditor called thebillstone really, really wishes that Rodger had been able to get inside that sorority.

Naturally, some visitors to the subreddit are appalled by the celebration of a murderer:

DigDugDactylus 27 points 6 hours ago* Do people here seriously support a serial killer? Edit: I thought people exxagerated, so I decided to check. People here need help permalinkembedsavereportgive goldreply [–]justendmefamThe only thing left to do is to dog 1 2 7 points 4 hours ago He's wasn't a serial killer first of all and second of all plenty of females admire serial and other killer

But in fact not all incels think Rodger was a hero. Some are appalled to see fellow incels lionizing a mass killer — something that, at the very least, makes incels look bad.

Know_What_Fvck_ThisRacecel: Enemy to All 5 points 8 hours ago Tbh, fuck this faggot, he's the reason we're associated with school shootings. permalinkembedsavereportgive goldreply [–]xxxrivenmainxxx 0 points 2 hours ago school shooters are true heros

Others look down on Rodger because his body count wasn’t higher, and not enough of his victims were women.

Angry_runtCitizen of Incelistan 2 points 5 hours ago As an agent of retribution he was laughably incompetent. He killed three Chinese guys because... what, because they take American jobs?

Still others complain that Rodger was simply too good-looking to be a true incel.

gufestus120 YO Suicidal Virgin 45 points 9 hours ago Fuck off troll. That guy was rich spoiled piece of shit with severe mental problems. He isn't even ugly. He was just spoiled. So fuck him and fuck people who worship this idiotic faggots. His experience couldn't be further away from a genuine incels.

BlumolIt's facebook and not personality-book for a reason. 25 points 9 hours ago Fuck that guy who squandered his wealth and looks. If I had half his wealth or looks I wouldn't be an incel.

The Incels subreddit may be the scariest place on Reddit.

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IgnoreSandra
IgnoreSandra
3 years ago

@Francesca

What is revenge but inflicting pain upon the world? Exquisitely glorious pain, but pain nonetheless xD

I don’t really write self inserts, but a lot of my characters are based on aspects of me at different points of my life. The villain of the current thing I’m trying harkens back to my most misanthropic periods, and most of my heroines are awesome because they analyze what’s going on, draw a conclusion, and act on it. Plus, all of them are women. All of them. I want it to be an unspoken rule that unless mentioned otherwise, the smart reader assumes a given character in my work is a woman.

IgnoreSandra
IgnoreSandra
3 years ago

@Francesca

Also, I’m going to be off my hormones for a week. I’ve been fighting my pharmacy into filing for a prescription refill for about a week and a half, and I finally got them to do it. Since I got them to do it, I learned of a firm requirement by the doctor for my blood to be drawn and sent to a lab before I can get a refill.

I took my last day of pills today. The earliest I can get my blood drawn is friday. The latest the lab results might be back is Tuesday. Add another day for the pharmacy to screw things up. Off my meds for a week. And it actually isn’t my fault.

If the pharmacy had figured out how to use a fucking fax machine a dozen days ago when I first started talking to them, instead of telling me they sent the refill request five times while not sending it (Or not caring to send it to the right fax number), I would have been aware of this requirement in time to do something about it.

So, fuck transmisogyny.

Weatherwax
Weatherwax
3 years ago

Thanks everyone for expanding my knowledge on the US cultural phenomenon that is cheerleading. Some eye-opening facts.

@WWTH (and everyone else on sorority films etc)

It’s also silly to use horror movies where sorority girls are victims as proof that sorority girls are bad. I figure that the biggest reason for this trope is mostly that it gives the filmmakers an excuse to show hot scantily women running around. Like most movies, slashers often pander to a straight male audience and ignore the rest of us.

Random aside – my brain inserted a “clad” that my eyes did not see. Anyway…

It’s things like this that make me give side-eye to the “male gaze” (not that it exists, but that I’m judging it). I’m bi and might otherwise expect to find scantily clad women running around titillating. But the context puts me off. Because they’re generally running around in fear. I don’t find scared people sexy. Not judging people who find playing with these emotions exciting in their consensual sexy times, but I don’t. My theory for why this (sexily dressed women running for their lives) is like a tide of cold water to my libido is that I’m failing to be the observer as I’m too busy identifying with the fleeing women. And I don’t find my own terror sexy.

In the same way, my prevailing thought on seeing tv/films with women in bikinis at a pool party with erect nipples is “poor love, she looks freezing, will no one give her a cardigan?”. That probably speaks more to my Britishness (we don’t really go in for outside pools, as they’re only usable for three days a year) (also the cardigan thing), but it does leave me baffled.

We all objectify people from time to time. What am I saying? I suppose that the “male gaze” is more complex than “straight men think women’s bodies are pretty”. It’s not biological, it’s socially constructed and it has all kinds of unintended consequences for how we all interact with each other.

Wow that was an essay. Given I said 3 hours ago that I was going to bed early, I’d better fulfil at least the bed bit – early has long since passed. Good night all.

Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

@Ellesar

. I do often wonder why the people who create these depictions want to portray so many American youth as complete arseholes.

Because America is an asshole country with an asshole culture. Being an asshole is the national religion.

@Sandra

I don’t really write self inserts, but a lot of my characters are based on aspects of me at different points of my life.

I don’t mean to write self-inserts, but apparently more of me leaks into some of them than I realize.

So, fuck transmisogyny.

Indeed. And much sympathy for the interruption of the hormones.

@Weatherwax

We all objectify people from time to time. What am I saying? I suppose that the “male gaze” is more complex than “straight men think women’s bodies are pretty”. It’s not biological, it’s socially constructed and it has all kinds of unintended consequences for how we all interact with each other.

Yes. The male gaze is yet another outgrowth of a culture of misogyny and toxic masculinity.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Common sense dictates that the stereotype cannot always be true, but why do you suppose it is so prevalently reinforced? Just about every mainstream depiction of US highschool shows it as some kind of hellhole if you are not rich, attractive and ‘popular’. I do often wonder why the people who create these depictions want to portray so many American youth as complete arseholes.

My best guess is that Hollywood writers probably mostly come from affluent suburbs where social status and wealth is a bigger deal and they just assume that it’s the default everywhere. I also think that teen movies and shows were very heavily influenced by John Hughes movies. That seems to me to be where the teenage cliches come from.

Or maybe I’m the one who’s an outlier? I don’t really know. I went to an economically and racially diverse city public school. There were certainly kids at my HS who were more socially skilled and had more friends than others, but it was a big school and there were friend groups for just about every type of person. And there was plenty of overlap between groups too. Teenagers are assholes so it was hardly some sort of utopia, but it was definitely not like the movies.

Francesca Torpedo, Femoid Special Forces Major
Francesca Torpedo, Femoid Special Forces Major
3 years ago

@Sandra

I’m convinced they’re just purposefully trying to prevent you from obtaining your ‘mones, which is fucking terrible. That’s all. No complexity to that whatsoever.

The medical sector still treats transpeople like garbage. It’s amazing, really, that this is even allowed to happen, but we’re special cases, isn’t it, because we’re fucking degenerates who cause the collapse of society, to quote some guy on the Twitter verbatim.

Or, if you listen to the Hoteps, black transwomen like myself are weapons engineered by Society to Destroy the Black Family.

Weatherwax
Weatherwax
3 years ago

Popping back to say

@IgnoreSandra

That sounds awful. As someone on meds that you aren’t supposed to skip on and off of (SSRIs), I’m right there with you.

The one time I ran out (I fucked up my repeat prescription; not surprising when you consider my anxiety makes it difficult to do the sensible thing but, oh, the irony…) by 3-4 days, my local pharmacist checked his records and gave me a week’s worth in advance of a prescription. But I’m guessing that’s a luxury afforded by the NHS, which may not be available in countries which operate “health for profit”. Or he was a god amongst pharmacists. One or the other.

Anyway, fuck transmisogyny.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I’m bi and might otherwise expect to find scantily clad women running around titillating. But the context puts me off. Because they’re generally running around in fear. I don’t find scared people sexy.

Yeah, if this creepy and entitled male gaze stuff was a natural consequence of finding women attractive, you’d see lesbian, bi and pan women objectify women a lot more than you do. Yet male attracted men objectify men a lot more than I see male attracted women do. So it seems most likely that men are just socialized to connect violence and dehumanization with sex.

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
3 years ago

Interesting take on a complex topic

Hiding in plain sight: how the ‘alt-right’ is weaponizing irony to spread fascism

Experts say the ‘alt-right’ have stormed mainstream consciousness by using ‘humor’ and ambiguity as tactics to wrong-foot their opponents

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/23/alt-right-online-humor-as-a-weapon-facism?CMP=share_btn_tw

Weatherwax
Weatherwax
3 years ago

@Dalillama
@WWTH

What you said.

And now I really am going to bed.

Francesca Torpedo, Femoid Special Forces Major
Francesca Torpedo, Femoid Special Forces Major
3 years ago

@Kat

I’ve had similar discussions with other like-minded people before this article was put to print; I believe I might even have mentioned it here.

You can only say “I was only ironically pretending to be a Nazi for the lulz” for so long before you are actually just a fucking Nazi. I’ve never bought into the “IT WAS JUST AN EPIC IRONIC TROLL LOL” cover story Internet Nazis use for their activities.

Inevitably, when you confront them, they have two standard responses:

A.) “It was just an epic troll kek ironic maymay, you guise! Why you gotta be such a butthurt snowflake, le top lel kek?”

B.) “First of all, you’re infringing on my free speech, so you are actually the Nazi. And anyway, what has Africa done for us recently…? Why can’t you debate with me honestly about how white people are actually superior? We did a Civilization and whatnot and wrote books and built castles and made the Stock Market. Can you disprove this? I am trying to have a civil debate, and you are being a butthurt snowflake fascist liberal. I am the real victim here.”

Sometimes if you’re lucky you get both. And you end up having to actually debate a fucking Nazi about how murdering millions of people is immoral, which is the worst possible position to find yourself in.

Someone here said not to debate with them, ever, and I’m leaning towards that these days.

ETA:

Secondly, people are dumb for fucking buying into the ‘epic meme’ shit even for a second.

I play CSGO and other online FPS games like Battlefield and COD and the Hitler memes and Nazi Germany memes are out of fucking control. Not a day goes by that I’m not in a game and someone with a name like [1488]GAS_THEM_ALL and an Adolf Hitler avatar isn’t in the game screaming about n-words and f-words and etc.

On ordinary forums you have people naming themselves after rich dead Nazis like Albert Speer, and when you confront them about it they inform you that this doesn’t mean anything and that it’s a meme of some sort.

I saw through all of that years ago, since about 2008, when the internet nazis really kicked into high gear. I realized that they were always just fucking Nazi and were not joking about it at all in any sense.

So, my advice to you all is to lawyer up and hit the gym.

Ooglyboggles
3 years ago

@IgnoreSandra
That’s is terrible.

If the pharmacy had figured out how to use a fucking fax machine a dozen days ago when I first started talking to them, instead of telling me they sent the refill request five times while not sending it (Or not caring to send it to the right fax number), I would have been aware of this requirement in time to do something about it.

It’s likely they’re deliberately dragging their heels because of who you are. Condolences.

@weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
I guess we both are since the schools I’ve been to from Preschool to Highschool were racially and economically diverse.
@Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
It’s shit like this that validates my policy of “trolling > debate” when it comes to these chucklefucks.

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
3 years ago

Fox News Poll: Trump approval down, voters support special counsel on Russia

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/05/24/fox-news-poll-trump-approval-down-voters-support-special-counsel-on-russia.html

And a commenter has this to say:

jefffried
7 minutes ago

FOX GOT THE WORD FROM THEIR MOLES

AT THE FBI THAT CRIMINAL CHARGES ARE COMING

I was pretty surprised to see that lots of the commenters seem to hate Fox.

Boogerghost
Boogerghost
3 years ago

@dr. ej YESS BAND KIDS REPRESENT!! I used to whinge a bit about how students on sports teams were exempt from P.E. requirements but we go out into the sweltering heat to take impossibly large, rapid steps WHILE USING ALL OUR AIR TO PLAY INSTRUMENTS WITH OUR MOUTHS*, all with impeccable precision, and that’s not “physical” enough. 😉 Still feel lucky to have had that experience though. All things band, including marching, were the best part of high school for me hands down.

*drumline and pit get lots of cardio too <3

@wwth
Indeed! I always had my circuits crossed a bit by the "stupid vapid mean girl" trope in particular. I knew I was supposed to hate and/or look down on the pretty, popular girls, and misogyny leaves few young brains untouched even in budding feminazis, but plenty of them were honor students and athletes and volunteers and musicians, and perfectly civil to me in my scruffy weirdness. One of the head cheerleaders was also a top intellectual contributor in my English class, AND really nice to and appreciative of me. As Peggy Orenstein writes, being kind and accomplished in ADDITION to being beautiful and popular have become girls' obligations. Yeesh! My plate was plenty full with 10 AP classes and band and clubs, I can't imagine if I'd also had to implement a freakin beauty regimen.

No surprise, it was the boys who did most of the bullying I saw. Most of the vanity, dismissiveness, and snobbery came from clever or "rebel" boys. Only boys ever teased me for having body hair or being weird or gross. The nerdy straight boys I hung out with were a fun community to be part of but honestly didn't support each other or me all that well, and seldom shied away from objectifying women in my presence.

My best and most lasting high school friendships were with a small handful of girls and queer boys, though I didn't appreciate them enough at the time and would deprioritise spending time with them for the sake of feeling like I belonged in that group of boys, as inferior a social experience as it often was. I also never had a female "group" like I did a male group, and that would have been cool. I feel like I very much bought into the "cool girl" mythos as a youngster. Maybe a lot of young women are tricked into thinking they can't trust each other and will only benefit from male friendships, and certainly young men seem to be discouraged from showing empathy or vulnerability.

Anyway, more diverse high school experience representation would be nice. 😀

Francesca Torpedo, Femoid Special Forces Major
Francesca Torpedo, Femoid Special Forces Major
3 years ago

@Oogly

@Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
It’s shit like this that validates my policy of “trolling > debate” when it comes to these chucklefucks.

If you think about it carefully, what does one really stand to gain by debating a Nazi?

They want to murder millions of people. That’s it. You are finished. There isn’t really much more you can do at this point.

You might as well press a sharp knife really hard into the meat of your hand while sternly telling it not to cleave your flesh.

This continual red herring about “bUt We MuSt DeBaTe tHeM!” is ultimately useless. What use would that do? You can’t convince someone not to murder another person, that has a 99% failure rate. You might as well try to lift up a cathedral with your bare hands.

Perhaps we’re supposed to gain a seat at the super sekrit Nazi club by showing our goodwill? Fat fucking chance if you’re a minority…and, anyway, if the undertone is that debating Nazis will make them have mercy upon you with they rise, that’s a deeply disturbing plot twist; firstly because it suggests they will win no matter what, and secondly because it subtly implies that we should be trying to gain credence in their ranks, which legitimizes them further.

Nobody anywhere should debate a fucking Nazi. Don’t do it ever. Don’t even talk to them if you can manage it.

Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

@Fran

Someone here said not to debate with them, ever, and I’m leaning towards that these days.

Indeed, debating nazis is counterproductive.

Francesca Torpedo, Femoid Special Forces Major
Francesca Torpedo, Femoid Special Forces Major
3 years ago

@Dali

Pretty much. As I said, I think the idea that these Nazis are definitely not le top leling with us seems to be gaining traction.

I’m just furious that it took this long for people to realize it.

I feel like we might have screwed up really bad this time and allowed something to happen that we’re going to have a hell of a time putting it back in.

“Excuse me,” remarked Fran, as the Panzer VI tank treads slowly reduced her legs to a bloody jelly of pink chopped muscle, shredded skin, shattered, glistening white bone, and dark, spreading blood, “but I believe your argument contains an ad-hominem attack and therefore is not acceptable in a moderated debate…”

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

@ weatherwax

That probably speaks more to my Britishness (we don’t really go in for outside pools, as they’re only usable for three days a year)

I used to frequent Ilkley Baths. That was an unheated open air swimming pool, on Ilkley Moor. A place immortalised in a song about someone freezing to death.

It was as cold as you’d imagine. Went lots times, but if you cumulatively add up all the time I actually managed to stay in the water it probably amounts to about three minutes.

(I think the rest of the time I was trying to restart my heart)

Boogerghost
Boogerghost
3 years ago

That probably speaks more to my Britishness (we don’t really go in for outside pools, as they’re only usable for three days a year)

I used to frequent Ilkley Baths. That was an unheated open air swimming pool, on Ilkley Moor. A place immortalised in a song about someone freezing to death.

Went for a dip in Hampstead Heath on one of the hottest days of the summer last year – 20 minutes of shivery paddling was plenty and we were out of there.

Francesca Torpedo, Femoid Special Forces Major
Francesca Torpedo, Femoid Special Forces Major
3 years ago

In my particular corner of the colonies, at least if you live in a fairly affluent Suburbanite area, swimming is fetishized to the point where if you don’t know how to swim and aren’t in a pool at some point in time, you are considered extremely odd.

Swimming schools make money like crazy over here. There is a reason why almost everyone I know in reality is capable of swimming.

Also, we spend a lot of time at the beach. You should see the beach nearby me.

You guys consider people walking around in swimsuits with their nipples out to be weird? That’s standard midsummer shit around here.

This place is full of vapid, awful people, though. I am not trying to say my area is ideal and excellent and the American Dream and etc, just that you do, in fact, encounter that sort of thing here.

If you guys visit me sometime we can all hang out at someone’s pool in extremely hot weather wearing the tightest shit ever. Bring all your Mammotheer pals. It will be exactly like those teen movies except we’re all adults, but yeah.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

@ boogerghost

20 minutes of shivery paddling was plenty

Well that should be enough to top up on Weil’s disease.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

@ fran

This might appeal to your sense of humour.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ri-UE0pEomA

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
3 years ago

@Francesca

You end up having to actually debate a fucking Nazi about how murdering millions of people is immoral, which is the worst possible position to find yourself in.

I admire your effort.

Francesca Torpedo, Femoid Special Forces Major
Francesca Torpedo, Femoid Special Forces Major
3 years ago

@Alan

Thanks!
That is exactly what all the popular parties look like around here, pretty much. Well, except for the last part somewhat.

Like, the very last time I was somewhere at a house party, there was a pool and everything and skimpy swimwear and etc.

Ooglyboggles
3 years ago

@Francesca Torpedo, Femoid Special Forces Major

I find it especially funny when people say I should give them a chance. I did, with my former best friend, for a whole damn year when he stopped his act of half way decency. All it did was make me hate them all the more and make me irritable just thinking about it.

Perhaps we’re supposed to gain a seat at the super sekrit Nazi club by showing our goodwill? Fat fucking chance if you’re a minority…and, anyway, if the undertone is that debating Nazis will make them have mercy upon you with they rise, that’s a deeply disturbing plot twist; firstly because it suggests they will win no matter what, and secondly because it subtly implies that we should be trying to gain credence in their ranks, which legitimizes them further.

Funny part, he’s Vietnamese like me and still said all that fascist bullshit.

As Ooglyboggles was dragged from his home and shoved facefirst into the sun baked pavement alongside his neighbors, the leading officer says “Pardon me, but I believe your comments come from unsubstantiated sources. There is no reason to use petty insults when we can try to have civil discourse with each other…”

Kale
Kale
3 years ago

yea a bit late but after reading the thread here I just feel like I need to say this:

if you want it to be seen as if it is completely welcome, and ok, and “feel free to” comment on ways other comments might strike you as ableist here…

…you cant also get hyper-defensive & dismissive about it.

That action actively discourages people from pointing out that ableism, because no one wants to be seen as “a bitch” who “starts shit” & get scolded as if “over-reacting”.

If you actually do want to encourage people to point out ableism, your reaction should be more like “ok, sorry that came off that way, I hear you”, and moving on. Not gonna stick around to discuss so dont feel the need to address me, I just wouldnt feel right not sayin it.

PeeVee the (Timber-Rattling Booger Slut, But Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Timber-Rattling Booger Slut, But Noice) Sarcastic
3 years ago

Nobody anywhere should debate a fucking Nazi. Don’t do it ever. Don’t even talk to them if you can manage it.

Requoted for truth.

Hambeast
Hambeast
3 years ago

Francesca said

So I guess I’m now going to be known as That Girl who Writes about a Depressed, Eccentric Black Girl experiencing Weird Shit.

Not to egg you on, but as a long time Stephen King fan, that sounds kinda awesome.

Z&T
Z&T
3 years ago

Thanks for the Birthday Wishes, Everyone! 🙂

I got some other remembrances and a few small gifts including –

An “Arctic” polar bear beanie – here –

https://store.ty.com/newtys/tyshop_items_preview.cfm?ITEM_NO=42108

A pink glass vase that is more – like a round bowl – it’s my own *Glowing Orb*, it’s fantastic!

And several candles, I like candles.

About the thoughts on cheer leaders – I went to private school, we didn’t have it, we did hang out with all other kids in other private (including religious) and public schools.

I was more like a goth / punk sort of kid. If even that. Not overly interested in that either, this is probably how grunge came about, ha, from lazy people like me.

We did hang out with cheer leaders and when I was at Uni some “sorority girls”. I am trying to remember that – one of my party friends from that group – became a dentist.

Yeah. Wild Swinging Times.

We did have enough of fun as kids but it was NOT a “Girls Gone Wild” video.

I had an idea about this, and these “men” we are discussing here –
OK – a lot of them seem to think there are all kinds of “conspiracies”. And against them specifically, too. Not to mention the far fetched ones like “Jewish Plots”.

They also seem to base a lot of their ideas on what they see in the media.

So why don’t they question the various entertainment and media they look at? Put your tin foil hat on and do some “research” on that – why don’t you?

They don’t though.

They are not basing their thoughts on actual people, but on actors and scripted scenarios they absorb via various media.

Step One is to separate these things in your head.

And to reiterate the above, which might blow all their gaskets –

Sorority Girl. Became a Dentist.

Hambeast
Hambeast
3 years ago

Sandra – So sorry about your script! Hope you weather the gap all right.

Re: cheer leaders – I graduated in 1978 and the cheer leaders were okay. It was the drill team that were better than every one else.

Whoa. The medication just kicked in; it took me 12 minutes to type that last paragraph . Hi Sinkable John, if you’re out there.

IgnoreSandra
IgnoreSandra
3 years ago

@Everybody

Thanks! I hope I do too. My hormones have seriously helped a lot of my mental problems. My symptoms have been so much less severe since I started them.

I just finished with rehearsal, and I was actually outgoing and enthusiastic and enjoyed time with most of my cast members. It was like a different woman was doing it. And then I saw a picture of myself, wanted to destroy it, and realized it was me.

@Dalillama & Francesca

I am completely certain that the only reason for my difficulties is because of the medicine I need and that my legal name is still my dead name. So I am certain that I will need to badger this pharmacy as long as I don’t have a physical script, in writing, in my hand. A week off is the minimum time. If I have to fight the pharmacy to do their minimum goddamn job, it’ll probably be nearly two weeks. When I see my doctor, I’ll mention my issues and ask if he knows a pharmacy that keeps it’s nose out of the patient’s life.

Because, y’know, what helps this patient is irrelevant. She needs to conform, especially if she’s miserable. If she’s not miserable and suicidal, she’s not being the human “god” made her to be. Fucking hell.

dashapants
dashapants
3 years ago

Harking back to that whole male gaze and “scantily clad beautiful women in peril” discussion, I must disagree that the reverse does not exist or is not as prevalent. The reverse is called “scantily clad handsome men experiencing torments” usually because they have been caught by the inquisition or perhaps sentenced to die by being tied to a stake at the bottom of a deep well that is slowly filling with water or they are James Bond about to be murdered in some particularly interesting fashion.

The sexy appeal being promoted is different. While the point of a “scantily clad women in peril” trope appears to be either revenge fantasy or power trip that has as its goal getting off on someone’s helplessness, the reverse appears to feed on the resilience of the trapped character.

While men are being sold fetishized vulnerability, women are being sold fetishized willpower (within more or less the same perilous framework where the situation is similar, the clothes are scant, even the the traits – vulnerability and strength – are both present, but the emphasis on them is different). Make of it what you will, and a solid argument can be made for pervasive entrenched stereotyping of femininity versus masculinity, but both men and women are sold this trope by the movies in equal measure.

Equally, women have a hard time understanding how men can enjoy the trope aimed at them and men absolutely hate the trope aimed at women (even though it presents their gender in a much better light). This, as has correctly been surmised, is mainly due to empathy with one’s own gender. Women don’t enjoy being terrified, especially if the slasher or monster or whatever gets them in the end, and men do not enjoy being stripped and tortured, even if in the end they do escape. Whatever gender the viewer identifies with determines which trope they find repellent and which seems titillating.

Lord Pabu
Lord Pabu
3 years ago

@Dashapants

I think comparing those two things is a bit like saying that portrayals of characters in videogames isn’t sexist, because the male characters are sexualized as much as the female characters. But it’s been well established by now that both the male and female characters in videogames are designed for the male gaze, with the female characters being the sexually objectified prize (for men) and the male character being the power fantasy (again for men).

It’s mostly action flicks that show the male protagonist being tormented, and men make up the majority of those audiences. Movies that have a large female fanbase don’t usually feature men being tortured.

I won’t try to debate this much more because I’m just not the greatest at clarifying my point, but I do think that, when you want to know who a certain trope is appealing to, all you have to do is look at the fanbase and who makes it up.

The only exceptions I know of exist in yaoi culture (Does anyone else here read Killing Stalking?) but most of us reading are inserting ourselves into the position of the one being tormented in these cases, and finding the psychology and push-and-pull fascinating.

Anyway, I think my point is just slipping further and further away from me now. : P

Pictured: me in this post (aka a cute ferret trying to reach a donut and failing) http://imgur.com/cuKxcfv

EJ (the Scheming Liberal Race-Traitor)

@dashapants:

The difference is the audience.

When we say “objectified” we mean it in the linguistics sense of the word “object.”: someone or something which is acted upon, rather than acting in its own right. As such, a key part of objectification is that the person is presented as something which the audience want to own or use, rather than someone that they want to be.

Fetishised women are objectified for a male audience: men aren’t expected to want to be them, but to want to own or use them.

Fetishised men (which certainly exist, as you point out) are also presented for a male audience: men aren’t expected to want to own or use them, but to want to be them. They’re still very much the active participant.

If we look at media intended for women, and then at the men presented as desirable in it, we don’t see a lot of fetishised willpower. For my own part, what I’ve seen is:
– Men who are charming and have their shit together, but whose lives are in just enough disarray to be “a project.”
– Men who, having just met the woman, accept her unconditionally and will continue to do so despite her behaviour.

Both of these tropes are often ridiculed by male observers because they don’t feel like power fantasies. They aren’t aggressive or domineering, and they present the man as an object to be acted upon rather than as a subject who acts upon others. However, the male ridicule is usually aimed at the loss of aggression rather than the objectification.

(An aside: Is there a male fictional trope which manages to both fetishise and objectify the man, without losing the aggression? Yes, in my view. I’d argue that the depiction of mooks or henchmen, willing to kill or die at the orders of a their leader, counts as this. We’re not intended to identify with them; we’re intended to identify with their leader and to fantasise about how great it would be to own a group of obedient badasses.

I think this is why comedy based around henchmen talking to one another and asking why they’re henching is often so funny: it turns an object into a person, which inverts our expectations.)

So yeah: men do get treated fetishistically, I agree with your thesis point. But let’s not call it objectification, because it usually isn’t.

guest
guest
3 years ago

‘Men who, having just met the woman, accept her unconditionally and will continue to do so despite her behaviour.’

I just wanted to highlight/reinforce this because I think it’s a significant trope, going all the way back to Elizabeth Bennett. We (women) like to imagine that we’ll meet a man who will love and respect us for who we are, no matter how many or how large our ‘defects’–that we can find a man who loves us without us having to hide and pretend. (This trope often also includes the more beautiful, pleasant and ‘acceptable’ but hypocritical or phony woman as a comparison.)

yzek
yzek
3 years ago

“Dude, are you okay? Let us know if you need to talk.”

Because I was included in important stuff section by someone, who seems to be concerned about my well-being, I feel obliged to answer: I’m OK, thank you, In fact: I’m more OK now I’ve ever been in my life. I just seem to lack that pink veil which most people cover their memories of childhood and adolescence with and it grows thicker with age.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

It couldn’t possibly just be that commenters knew nice girls growing up. Yzek knows everyone’s life better than they do. Any fond memories are just a “pink veil” whatever that is.

I met one of my best friends when I was 9 and the other when I was 15. I guess I only think they were and still are good people because I’m lying to myself. Now that Yzek has told me the truth, I’m going to have to go tell them that they’re actually terrible and I don’t want to be friends with them anymore.

Valentine
Valentine
3 years ago

@Peevee thanks for checking )))
@dasha pants thank you! You explained very well. And yes – also what it is saying there on the book makes it even worse. Just generally horrible to look anyway. This one you said is like the way my friend is describing it, that this is mistranslated but it also the way that everyone is saying anyway in english because to explain properly takes long time…

PeeVee the (Timber-Rattling Booger Slut, But Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Timber-Rattling Booger Slut, But Noice) Sarcastic
3 years ago

Well, good for you, yzek. Thanks for stopping by.

@Valentine, you are more than welcome.

yzek
yzek
3 years ago

“It couldn’t possibly just be that commenters knew nice girls growing up.”

Yeah, and your anecdata is more more anectadive than mine.

Scroll back to OP and see how he switched from “I was too shy to talk with girls” to say 40 years after that “they were nice to me”. How could he know if he didn’t actually talked to them then?

Lea
Lea
3 years ago

Yzek,
Can you go awfulize, comdesend, insult and feel sorry for yourself somewhere else?

We’re all full up on hearing how repulsive and foolish we all are. You’re attempt to get away with being shitty to other people while playing the victim is kind of an old worn out act we’ve all had enough of.

Lea
Lea
3 years ago

Ugh. “Your”

Lea
Lea
3 years ago

Women are all fiendishly cruel liars and anyone who says anything else is just delusional?
Yeah, why don’t more women throw themselves at you?
It’s a mystery.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Yzek,

GoM was just sharing a personal experience, not making a scientific claim. He gets to have anecdata about his own life. You’re telling him that the girls in husband school were awful without actually being there or knowing. You were the only one making sweeping claims.

And he didn’t say he never talked to girls, he said he didn’t ask them out. There’s a difference.

IgnoreSandra
IgnoreSandra
3 years ago

@WWTH

And he didn’t say he never talked to girls, he said he didn’t ask them out.

Is it just me, or is there something really fuckin’ creepy about a guy who assumes that the only reason to talk to a woman is to ask her out? He clearly thinks this, otherwise he wouldn’t have changed “Didn’t ask women out” to “Didn’t talk to women” in his head.

yzek
yzek
3 years ago

If we are discussing who actually said that, please point me where I actually said anything like “the girls in school were awful”, or played the victim.

I’d happily admit being generally repulsive, foolish and awful, but none of the above. I sincerely am constantly amazed about power of cut the edges of memory and I’d like to hear what actual experiences lead OP to his conclusion.

Y.

yzek
yzek
3 years ago

“And he didn’t say he never talked to girls, he said he didn’t ask them out.”

Yeah, he engaged often in small small talk or whatever: that’s why they considered thim painfully shy and never expected any advances from him. It’s logical.

Y.

Viscaria the Cheese Hog
Viscaria the Cheese Hog
3 years ago

I’ve figured it out: yzek actually is all of the women GOSJM went to high school with, and that’s why they’re a better authority on GOSJM’s own memory and experiences than the man himself.

Lea
Lea
3 years ago

Are you still here?
Shoo.
You’re dull, rude and dishonest. I didn’t invite you to a debate. I said you should see yourself out.