Leaving on a jet plane: Another Trump open thread because holy crap what a week

@ fran

Alan should like this

I did indeed! Of course, like all attempted satires of the North it’s disturbingly close to the reality. Basically we’re Poe’s Law writ large. Every cliché is true; but we’re actually quite proud about that.

Complete OT but I have to get this off my chest.

I just watched a 3 part documentary on one of Sweden’s most famous murder cases, in which two brothers aged 5 and 7 were declared guilty of killing a 4 year old boy. The events happened in 1998, and this documentary series has dominated domestic news here recently. The film maker managed to access previously unreleased video recordings of police questioning the brothers. Most of the people involved with the investigation are featured in interviews, as well as the brothers, who are now in their mid 20s, and their parents.

It’s been an absolutely infuriating experience to watch. I don’t think I’ve ever been so shaken by a documentary before. I cried many times, despite being on meds that make me almost unable to cry. I hope it gets subtitled in English, or I might try to put a translation together myself. I knew it would be an intense ride, but it was a lot worse than I expected. I can’t even.

@ fran

the Real British Crime article is a riff of the Campaign For Real British Ale,

Like some of the best comedy it works on multiple levels. So there’s the obvious parody of CAMRA (oh, and they’re so parochial they just assume the ‘British’ as read). But it’s also a reinterpretation of Orwell’s essay ‘Decline of the English Murder’.

Satire works best when it could just as easily be taken at face value. I think the Starship Troopers film is a good example of that. And this does the same thing. But as mentioned that’s pretty easy with Northerners. I found myself nodding along reading the kids are all potential criminals article (well, it’s not wrong is it?)

@ fran

Oh, and to return to The Cleopatras:

I’m glad you’re enjoying it. It is a fantastic series. It’s that combination of witty script and amazing actors. It’s that clever ability to have larger than life characters yet keep them plausible and avoid pantomime caricature. It’s unfortunate it suffers inevitable Claudius comparisons. I think it’s equally good (and I *love* Claudius) but, whilst there are some similarities it’s a very different beast.

Speaking of Claudius you may also enjoy another forgotten series. It’s called The Caesars. Six (B&W) episodes. Came out shortly before Claudius which may have overshadowed it since. But it’s again equally excellent. Covers same ground as Claudius but some interesting differences in characterisation. Funnily enough it reflects a central theme that crops up in Claudius, should historical tales go for entertaining or accuracy?

Claudius is basically a funny Mafia family saga, Caesars is a more sober account. I especially like the interpretation of Tiberius. Much less petulant although equally frustrated. Reminds me a bit of Prince Charles. Hankering for years after a job then when it finally comes you’re too old and you’ll always pale in comparison to your adored and acclaimed forebear.

@banned

how easy it is to accidentally coax them into saying things

Well, aren’t we optimistic? It’s called ‘the Kevin case’, and, no, it don’t seem very accidental. An, admittedly short, exploration on Google makes blatantly incompetent out to be the most generous framing for the police 🙁

@banned & Axe

Yeah. After watching the documentary, I believe that some of the investigators were just incompetent, and others were actively malicious. Here’s a short summary of what happened (I guess there will be spoilers, if that word can be used in this context – oh, and also TW for various things).

Kevin was found on a wooden pallet, floating in shallow water in a lake very close to his home and to a school. He had been assaulted, likely kicked, in the crotch area, and finally strangled to death, likely by having a twig pressed against his throat.

When the news got out, one of the brothers told his stepmom that he had seen Kevin that day possibly with another person. The stepmother contacted the police, in case the boy might actually have some information, even though it seems likely he was just making things up, as kids do. Both brothers were brought in as possible witnesses.

They were subsequently interrogated upwards of 20 times each, for hours at a time, without legal representation and mostly without any parent present. The boys seemed to give positive or negative answers basically at random, constantly contradicting themselves and each other. They were asked to identify other kids in school photos, but it led nowhere.

Eventually the interrogators started asking whether the boys themselves were present when Kevin was killed. They both went back and forth between confirming and denying, but the interrogators quickly jumped to the conclusion that the brothers were the perpetrators. They then moved on trying to get the children to give an account of the murder that was consistent with the physical evidence, blatantly nudging them in the right direction. When the boys didn’t give the correct answers, they were simply given the facts and asked to repeat them.

While all this went on, the stepmother had a mental breakdown and was admitted to a psychiatric hospital. The police interrogated her at the hospital, while she was clearly in a confused state, and got her to agree with various suggestions about the day of Kevin’s death. They came away with “confirmation” that the older brother had come home with wet clothes on the day in question.

As it became clear that the brothers were the main suspects, their father was also admitted into psychiatric care and questioned while on heavy medication.

The boys never did give a remotely correct account of the murder, and they never once admitted to having killed Kevin. Even so, the police claimed to have received admissions of guilt. They also claimed that the boys had been extremely accurate and consistent in describing the events that led to Kevin’s death. This was clearly a lie.

The police worked with a “recovered memories expert” who was very well respected at this time, since he had previously worked with the super high profile Thomas Quick serial killer case. Quick confessed to more than 30 murders and was convicted of 8, in a series of trials between 1994 and 2001. During this time, Quick was on heavy psychiatric medication. After being taken off medication, Quick retracted all of his confessions and was subsequently acquitted from all 8 murders in a series of decisions between 2010 and 2013.

One of the most harrowing moments from the videotaped interrogations with the brothers in the Kevin case, was seeing the older boy crying and asking to see his mother, while the lead interrogator demanded that he admit dragging the dead body through the woods to the spot where Kevin was found. Eventually, the boy was told he could see his mother if he would point to the spot on the map where Kevin was found. When he couldn’t, the interrogator identified the spot for him. The boy was then happy to point at that spot, in exchange for getting to see his mother. This was the 18th time the boy was questioned, and the session had at this point gone on for 3 hours with no break.

In the aftermath, social services tried to place the boys with a foster family as the father and stepmother were in terrible mental states. As it happens, they couldn’t find any family willing to take in two allegedly murderous demon-children, so in the end the whole family was put in psychiatric care together. The situation was described by the family as “a prison”. They had never spoken publically about these events until being contacted by this documentary film maker.

@Jenora

Exactly. The interrogators even admitted on camera that they pushed the kids down a specific route because they needed to show some progress in the investigation. So gross and wrong.

The WM3 case was one of the worst cases of railroading I’ve ever seen…if the Kevin doc is anything like that, I can relate to the fury at the incompetence of the investigators.