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Men’s Rights Hero of the Day: The dude suing a woman for $17 for texting during a date

Not all dates go perfectly

UPDATE: The lawsuit has been dropped! Details at the end of the post. 

A brave hero in Austin Texas has taken his fight against the evils of misandry to the courts, filing a suit against a woman who skipped out on a date with him after he criticized what he saw as her excessive texting.

He is asking for S17.31 in damages, the cost of a ticket to a showing of the 3-D version of Guardians of the Galaxy 2: Galactic Boogaloo, or whatever it’s called, I don’t have time for fact checking.

Let’s go to KVUE.com to hear his side of the story:

Brandon Vezmar met the Round Rock woman on Bumble, a dating app. They went on a first date to a movie theater to see “Guardians of the Galaxy.” During the movie, Vezmar claims that she opened her phone between 10 and 20 times to read and send text messages.

This, Vezmar claims, is in “direct violation of the theater’s police” and adversely affected “the viewing experience of Plaintiff and others.”

“I said ‘listen, your texting is driving me a little nuts’ and she said ‘I can’t not text my friend.’ I said ‘maybe you can take it outside to the lobby, I’ve seen people get kicked out movies for this,” Vezmar explained.

The woman took his advice and left the theater, but did not come back.

According to Vezmer, he is less interested in getting his 17 bucks back than he is in the “principle” at stake here, “as Defendant’s behavior is a threat to civilized society.” He thinks her behavior represented some sort of civilization-threatening abdication of “personal responsibility.”

Needless to say, the woman’s version of events is a little different. She told KVUE she deserted her date because he was creeping her the hell out. And he still is.

I did have a very brief date with Brandon, that I chose to end prematurely. His behavior made me extremely uncomfortable, and I felt I needed to remove myself from the situation for my own safety. He has escalated the situation far past what any mentally healthy person would. I feel sorry that I hurt his feelings badly enough that he felt he needed to commit so much time and effort into seeking revenge. I hope one day he can move past this and find peace in his life.

Somehow I don’t think that will ever happen. Especially since this may be Vezmer’s last date for a very long time.

Check out the video on KVUE.com to see the literally neckbearded (not that there’s anything wrong with that) Vezmer explain his crusade in a little more detail. The odds that he’s a Redditor seem extremely high.

UPDATE: Check out this interview, where he explains how he’s fighting for men who are being “exploited” by women on dates. The article makes even more clear what a creepy stalker he is.

UPDATE 2: The lawsuit has been dropped! She basically paid him off so he’d leave her alone. Here’s the AV Club on how this all shook out:

We’re saved everyone: By Inside Edition, of all things. Apparently as sick of this story as the rest of us, IE set up a meeting between Vezmar and his date, so that she could give him the $17.31 back. In return, she asked for him to please god, “just leave this alone.” Vezmar carefully counted out all the money, and agreed to drop his lawsuit. We’d like to say that this will be the last we hear of this, but we would undoubtedly be wrong.

H/T — @RemingtonWild  and @ami_angelwings on Twitter

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Kimstu
Kimstu
4 years ago

@cornychips:

Well if you read the update, the scared and creeped out woman paid the guy

Good for her! I only wish, for her sake, that she’d done it as soon as he started complaining about it instead of after all this kerfuffle (not that the kerfuffle is in any way her fault, of course).

Then it would have been 100% obvious that she was instantly and disdainfully disqualifying him from the category of People Who Might Even Remotely Deserve the Privilege of Taking Me Out, instead of looking as though she was possibly just scared of a lawsuit.

magnesium
magnesium
4 years ago

The only upside to this saga is that now every woman will be able to do a quick google search to know why she should not go anywhere near a date with trash pile Brandon Vezmar.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

It’s the exact opposite of “woman being nice”. It’s “woman disdainfully making it clear that horrible creep does not deserve the privilege of having paid for her movie ticket”.

A lot of posters here seem to misunderstand the etiquette principle involved.

If it’s not about a woman being nice, then how come the word etiquette keeps coming up?

And why are you obsessing over how other people react to bad dates? If you want to pay back the cost of a dinner, that’s fine but why care if other people don’t? Why is this the first time I’m even hearing about this etiquette principal if it’s so damn important.

This conversation is confusing me.

Anyway, I think that this is just another way of putting the burden on women to read men’s emotions and respond to them whether it’s about being nice or not.

But as soon as he indicated in any way that he resented having spent money on her for the date?

This is incredibly vague and opens up the door for women taking all the blame if they judge the resentment factor incorrectly.

IgnoreSandra
IgnoreSandra
4 years ago

@WWTH

And why are you obsessing over how other people react to bad dates?

That’s…a fair point. I hadn’t considered how strange it was that they’ve been arguing until their face is blue that they’re right no matter how often we show that they aren’t.

@Kimstu

Good for her!

Fuck. You. Seriously. Fuck you. A terrified woman being creeped out and forced to bow before some shithead’s ego due to fear of internet harassment is never anything to be happy about. This isn’t a fucking Jane Austen novel, we don’t live in a world of ritualized etiquette engrained into all of us since childhood.

I am seriously angry enough that I can’t articulate just how much disgust I have for the way you’ve responded to this woman doing what she had to do to be safe.

PeeVee the (Timber-Rattling Booger Slut, But Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Timber-Rattling Booger Slut, But Noice) Sarcastic
4 years ago

People Who Might Even Remotely Deserve the Privilege of Taking Me Out, instead of looking as though she was possibly just scared of a lawsuit.

What a singularly ungracious way of putting it. I do not believe you are nearly a big a proponent of etiquette as you would like to portray.

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
4 years ago

She definitely should’ve stayed in the creepy and potentially dangerous situation long enough to fish out loose change from her purse (in the dark) and add it up to equal the exact price of a movie ticket and a pizza, because Both Sides!

cornychips
cornychips
4 years ago

@ kimstu

I think it’s interesting that you never address the fact that you find people like her “greedy and undignified”. That’s what is fucking disgusting. You are calling a woman greedy for ignoring a creeper!!! What the fuck!

And don’t think i forgot your shitty excuse for his stalking “he already had her number and info so it’s totes ok to send her messages after she bailed”

“He knows who she is, he knows how to contact her. Avoiding this repayment isn’t a safety issue.”

THAT’S NOT FOR YOU TO DECIDE WHAT IS A SAFETY ISSUE FOR A WOMAN WHO HAD TO LEAVE A DATE TO ESCAPE A CREEPY AND VENGEFUL GUY.

That is fucking gross!

cornychips
cornychips
4 years ago

This miss manners bullshit is what keeps women down. Fuck that fucking shit.

cornychips
cornychips
4 years ago

@ kimstu

Last one. You keep explaining yourself this concept of etiquette thinking WE don’t understand YOU. But I do realize what you are trying to say regarding gifts and taking the high road etc. In a different situation, I believe that you would be correct. But not in this one. Not this one where a woman literally fled a date in which she felt unsafe.

That’s why people are arguing with you. That’s why people are getting pissed at your lack of empathy to her and your scathing judgment towards a “greedy undignified ” woman.

JS
JS
4 years ago

It doesn’t matter what her reason was for “not paying off the creeper who started stalking her”. You have a seriously weird idea of etiquette. At this point, the reason she paid him off is because he was a serious creep out to destroy her life in every way he could, and even involved her family. “Greedy and undignified” does not apply to her. It applies to him.

I hope Inside Edition paid appearance fees to both, though I suspect they didn’t.

Betrayer
Betrayer
4 years ago

@Kimitsu

If you think someone is entitled to a date despite being a creepy, unpleasant shit just because they paid money, you are confusing dating with hiring an escort.

Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

@Betrayer

Past a certain level of creepiness, escorts will kick you to the curb too.

Kimstu
Kimstu
4 years ago

@weirwoodtreehugger:

If it’s not about a woman being nice, then how come the word etiquette keeps coming up?

Huh? Who says etiquette is just about “being nice”? For women or for anybody else?

Etiquette is about getting across what you mean, in the context of all the cultural norms, customs and expectations that make “just saying what you mean” impossible in any context-independent way.

Like it or not, in our deeply capitalist society buying something for somebody else is perceived as giving them a benefit, for which they somehow “owe” you something.

In situations such as social dating, where we want to explicitly contradict that default perception (because dating’s not supposed to be a commercial transaction), we need an explicit etiquette rule for that purpose. That’s why we have the etiquette rule that “The person who initiates the date pays all the expenses of the date with nothing expected in exchange”.

Accepting a date invitation in accordance with that rule is an expression of social trust. When the inviter deliberately violates that rule by complaining about paying for the date, they are betraying that trust.

Repaying the complainer’s money is how you get across the message that they have betrayed your trust. They are no longer worthy of being trusted even to the tiny extent of accepting a minor favor from them as a social gesture. You rightly refuse to accept from them anything that could be construed as any kind of a favor or benefit in accordance with the default “transactional” expectation that you “owe” them something in exchange.

By the way, this is also known as the “Take Back Your Mink” principle. Namely, if somebody gives you a present that appears to be merely a gesture of social nicety, and later you find out that they expected to get something from you as “payment” for it, you don’t hang on to the present and say “Too bad loser, it was a gift so I’m keeping it!” Nope, you show your disgust and disdain for their betrayal of social trust by contemptuously telling them to Take Back Their Mink.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
4 years ago

@Kimstu

You know what the first rule of etiquette is?

Not correcting other people’s etiquette.

You’re not the etiquette deity you seem to think you are. Miss Manners answers etiquette questions that other people ask her. She doesn’t jump in out of nowhere to scold other people for their etiquette. I am 100% certain that she would not approve because she has said as much, in words, multiple times when people write in to her bragging about how they ambushed someone else’s etiquette.

Just fucking stop. What you’re doing has been bad etiquette from the start and it certainly isn’t smoothing over any social situations, which is the primary and only purpose of etiquette.

Dagmar
Dagmar
4 years ago

@Kimstu

When I used to read The Washington Post (print edition) years ago, I consistently enjoyed the Miss Manners column. Her dry sense of humor, and her custom of addressing any and all advice seekers (regardless of temperament or civility) as “Gentle Reader”, amused me to no end. She is also from my mother’s generation, and in many ways she reminded me of her. My mom was very proper in many ways, but she was brilliant, had a wicked sense of humor, and was the kindest person I’ve ever known.

So…I may be wrong (it happens sometimes) but I don’t think that Kimstu is representing Miss Manner’s advice properly. Maybe because I could never imagine my mother counseling me or my three sisters to do what she suggests.

This is how Kimstu put it in her first post (apologies – I don’t know how to blockquote):

“If your date acts like you owe them a “return” for what they spent on you or complains about your “exploiting” them for it, just hand them the money (Miss Manners suggests flinging it down on the table before disdainfully exiting the restaurant), and you need never speak to them again.”

Kimstu – Can you please provide a link to that advice? I’m happy to admit I’m wrong, but if I’m not, I think the record should be corrected so as not to besmirch my mother. I mean Miss Manners.

Kimstu
Kimstu
4 years ago

@IgnoreSandra:

A terrified woman being creeped out and forced to bow before some shithead’s ego due to fear of internet harassment is never anything to be happy about.

Nobody here is happy about her being creeped out or fearful, as far as I know: certainly not me. But the fact that she did the right thing, to stand up for her independence and call out the asshole’s betrayal of social trust, is something to be happy about. She told the creepy shithead to Take Back His Mink, so I say again, good for her.

@cornychips:

I think it’s interesting that you never address the fact that you find people like her “greedy and undignified”.

Whoa, I never said that I thought she actually is greedy or undignified. Not in the least. What I said is that failing to punish somebody’s violation of social trust by rejecting their payment of your date expenses can come across as looking greedy and undignified.

That’s not her fault as an individual, not in any way. That’s just the reality of this whole entrenched complex of cultural norms and expectations that we’ve got in our society, which we need etiquette to navigate.

IgnoreSandra
IgnoreSandra
4 years ago

@Kimstu

Here you go again. Explain, explain, explain.

You don’t seem to be getting that we understand as much as you do. We’ve just reached a different conclusion than your assessment of proper protocol in this situation. You wanna live according to your standards? Fine. Whatever. Go do it. But don’t you fucking dare tell any of us we’re wrong for handling the situation in a different way.

And let’s not forget how you were gloating and crowing not a dozen replies ago (Or immediately previous to this reply) about how this woman was forced, under threat of violence, to pay her abuser money. To abide by your “principle”. You fucking asshole.

You see these tendrils of yours you are obviously trying to reach out into our lives? Withdraw them, now, before we start snapping them. We do not need to do things the exact same way you would do them.

Kimstu
Kimstu
4 years ago

@Policy of Madness:

You know what the first rule of etiquette is?

Not correcting other people’s etiquette.

Well sure, in actual social situations, that’s very true. In actual social situations, it’s also considered contrary to etiquette to gossip about incidents in other people’s social lives, the way we’ve all been doing during this entire thread about some poor woman’s horrible date experience.

But on a discussion board, arguing freely about the morals or ethics or etiquette or prudence or wisdom etc. of the actions of other people known to us only from public media is par for the course.

IgnoreSandra
IgnoreSandra
4 years ago

@Kimstu

it’s also considered contrary to etiquette to gossip about incidents in other people’s social lives, the way we’ve all been doing during this entire thread about some poor woman’s horrible date experience.

Not equivalent. We haven’t used her name, and this situation has connections to the misogyny most of us experience in our lives and the direction that misogyny could go. This could happen to literally any of us who date men, being prepared is a good idea. Plus he deserves to be shamed for this. That’s one way we help prevent bad behavior like this.

So…find a valid argument. And maybe stop talking down to us.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
4 years ago

Well sure, in actual social situations, that’s very true.

So you think that the interactions you’ve been having don’t constitute an actual social situation.

That says a ton about you, and none of it is good.

Just. Fucking. Stop. Nobody is dying to hear more from you. You’ve made your point and it’s been rejected. This horse is dead and it’s hypocritical for you to hammer on about etiquette anyway.

Kimstu
Kimstu
4 years ago

@IgnoreSandra:

You don’t seem to be getting that we understand as much as you do.

You certainly don’t seem to understand what I’m saying in my posts. For example:

@IgnoreSandra:

And let’s not forget how you were gloating and crowing not a dozen replies ago (Or immediately previous to this reply) about how this woman was forced, under threat of violence, to pay her abuser money.

I’m absolutely not gloating about her being forced to do anything. I applaud her for having done the right thing and stood up for herself in repaying the money her abuser spent on her under false pretenses (i.e., the false pretense of being a decent human being who could be trusted to accept and abide by elementary social rules).

Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent + Bard of the New Movement
Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent + Bard of the New Movement
4 years ago

@Kimitsu

It’s getting late. Maybe you should take a shower and go to bed. Think about it. Sleep on it. Have a good breakfast and see if your thoughts are more coherent tomorrow.

Right now…you’re mostly just digging yourself deeper.

That’s not good.

Kimstu
Kimstu
4 years ago

@Policy of Madness:

So you think that the interactions you’ve been having don’t constitute an actual social situation.

Not insofar as they involve the woman and man in this public news story. I have no reason to think that either one of them has even the faintest idea that I exist, much less about anything I’ve been saying concerning them. I don’t see any way in which I could be reasonably described as being in a “social situation” with either of them.

Kimstu
Kimstu
4 years ago

@Troubelle:

It’s getting late. Maybe you should take a shower and go to bed. Think about it. Sleep on it.

That’s okay, thanks, if people want to continue talking to me I’m happy to go on talking to them! I certainly won’t continue going on about it if they’re done posting on the topic, though.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
4 years ago

I don’t see any way in which I could be reasonably described as being in a “social situation” with either of them.

You’re in a social situation with other people on this board. One that you’ve turned into an awkward lecture-fest about etiquette, which, even if you were correct in your interpretation of etiquette (you aren’t) would be hella rude. Unless you’re the guardian of a child and responsible for teaching that child the ways of the world, noticing or commenting on other people’s etiquette is rude, because the only purpose of etiquette is to make social interactions go smoothly. Your incredible breach in breaking etiquette’s literal first rule has made the social interaction on this forum really unpleasant, which betrays how poorly you understand etiquette and how unprepared you are to correct anyone’s behavior anyway.

Just. Fucking. Stop.

IgnoreSandra
IgnoreSandra
4 years ago

@Kimsitu

either of them.

Because you and the two of them are the only people here. The rest of us, who disagree with you and find your ghoulish crowing over the subversion of this woman’s will at best tasteless and at worst misogynistic are just drones. Don’t even qualify as people, just sheep being led by a different leader than you.

I’m absolutely not gloating about her being forced to do anything.

You absolutely are. You are gloating over her doing things your way, calling such things “The” right thing to do. And since she did it because she’s under threat of harassment, doxing, and violence, she was effectively forced to do it that way instead of standing up for herself in the way she had decided was best. Oh, but it’s not standing up for yourself unless it’s your way, is it? How dreadfully disenfranchising of you, as if you can decide that someone else’s choice is invalid just because you wouldn’t do the same in her shoes.

Kimstu
Kimstu
4 years ago

@IgnoreSandra:

Not equivalent. We haven’t used her name

I haven’t used her name either, nor do I have any interest in using it. In fact, I don’t think I even know her name; if I read it at some point in the original blog post or somewhere in the discussion, I’ve forgotten it.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Kimstu,

Notice how all your posts about how women are perceived and judged. You’re not commanding that men organize their behavior around how they are viewed. Only women are apparently expected to do this.

Do you not see how that is misogynistic?

As you’ve failed to address when I’ve said it before, etiquette always seems to conveniently require women to watch themselves and to read men’s minds.

Here’s a thought. Who gives a shit if men perceive us as rude, uptight or greedy? Misogynistic men will perceive women as all those things no matter what we do. Or they’ll just us call us sluts. You’re advocating respectability politics here. Misogyny won’t disappear if women stop accepting dinners and movie tickets. In fact, we do that and they complain that they’re being emasculated. There’s no way to win the placate misogynists game. The only way to win is not to play at all.

Kimstu
Kimstu
4 years ago

@Policy of Madness:

You’re in a social situation with other people on this board.

Sure, but I haven’t “corrected the etiquette” of the behavior of any of the people on this board. I’ve disagreed with a lot of people here about general rules and principles of etiquette, and their application to the behavior of random strangers in a public news story, but that’s not the same thing.

I don’t think there’s anything intrinsically rude about disagreeing or arguing with people, is there? A lot of people on this board seem to do it.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
4 years ago

Good god, Kimstu, is English your first language or not? I’ll cut you slack for not understanding what words mean if you’re ESL, because what I wrote and what you’ve read back to me are not remotely the same.

Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent + Bard of the New Movement
Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent + Bard of the New Movement
4 years ago

@Kimstu

…Okay, need to drop a harder hint.

For the love of God, please go to bed. My colleagues have long since eviscerated your posts; don’t go about holding your guts in.

You’re pushing against a solid wall. And like in a 2D Pokemon game, all you will get is a noise meant to signify that you are getting nowhere, and should turn about and get back on track.

So…please. Remove yourself from this situation.

cornychips
cornychips
4 years ago

@ peeps

I noticed a couple kimstu posts include a lot of “independence” shtuff. It feels very telling. “Oh ladeez, just be independent and misogyny won’t effect you” or some such shit (I know that comparison is bit of a stretch) but It’s weird. I don’t know how to explain how it tingles my spidey sense.

Viscaria the Cheese Hog
Viscaria the Cheese Hog
4 years ago

Well that was a hell of a lesson in upper class politesse. I feel as if I’m practically a Hepburn now.

Re: the update: uuuurgh. I’m glad that she has done what she needs to for her own safety, but damn am I ever mad that this toolshed succeeded in using the legal system to harass and bully a woman for not womaning right.

Kimstu
Kimstu
4 years ago

@weirwoodtreehugger:

You’re not commanding that men organize their behavior around how they are viewed. Only women are apparently expected to do this.

Well, except where I keep saying that the guy who broke the etiquette rule about the initiator of a date paying the expenses of the date without expecting anything in return is a horrible creep who betrayed social trust and is undeserving of even minimal social acceptance.

Still, I get that that’s more descriptive than prescriptive, and I’m happy to make some prescriptive “commands” about the behavior of men too to even up the balance. For instance:

Men (#notallmen, sure) should absolutely stop playing bait-and-switch in this way with the social rules of dating and our underlying notions of economic obligation. To ask a woman (or anybody else) on a date for which you pay and then decide retroactively that she “owes” you reimbursement for some reason is HORRIBLY rude. Men (or anybody else) who don’t want to pay for both people on a date should have the guts to make that clear in advance.

And as I said before, I personally think it would save a lot of persistent pervasive sexist bullshit if pay-your-own-way could be made the default cultural expectation in dating. In the meantime, though, people who don’t specify pay-your-own-way in advance sure as shit should not be retroactively invoking it later.

@weirwoodtreehugger:

Who gives a shit if men perceive us as rude, uptight or greedy?

I don’t think etiquette perceptions are necessarily a gendered thing. I certainly didn’t mean to imply, when I said that certain behavior could “come across as looking” a certain way, that what mattered was how it could “come across as looking” to men in particular.

@weirwoodtreehugger:

There’s no way to win the placate misogynists game. The only way to win is not to play at all.

Very true, but I don’t think it’s only misogynists who have opinions about the ethics and etiquette of dating rules.

Kimstu
Kimstu
4 years ago

@Policy of Madness:

Good god, Kimstu, is English your first language or not?

Yup. What part of what you wrote do you think I misunderstood, or misrepresented?

As far as I could tell, we agree that it’s rude to correct the etiquette of people you’re interacting with. But I don’t know whether you agree with me that it’s not rude to disagree about etiquette with people you’re interacting with, or to criticize the etiquette of strangers in a news story.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
4 years ago

@ Kimstu

Noticing or commenting on other people’s etiquette is rude. Do you see the period at the end of the sentence? That means that is the end of the sentence.

It doesn’t mean that doing it to someone’s face is rude (although it is) but that doing it behind their back or to your friends later or in any way shape or form is incredibly rude and a breach of etiquette.

This is because, as I have said, the purpose of etiquette is to make social interactions go smoothly. That is its only purpose. That is subverted when you decide to pick on someone else’s etiquette. You’re not making social interactions go smoothly here, so you’re doing etiquette wrong and demonstrating with every post that you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about. You’re not Miss Manners and Miss Manners would never do what you’ve done here.

Just. Fucking. Stop.

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
4 years ago

Kimstu, trying to continue a conversation in which you aren’t welcome makes you look greedy and demanding, as you clearly care more about the attention you’re getting rather than any point you claim to be making. A truly independent person would exit such a conversation instantly, thus demonstrating that the other people in the conversation Aren’t Worthy of Speaking to You.

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
4 years ago

So Deprive Us All Of Your August Presence.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Seriously though, am I the only one who has never heard of this Very Important Etiquette Principle about how you’re supposed to return a gift if the giver doesn’t appear to be giving it unreservedly? Because I never have. My mom is quite well mannered. Even prissy. She never hesitated to correct my manners growing up and even though I’ve been an adult for nearly twenty years, she still occasionally does it. I’ve also read countless magazines and consumed a lot of fiction with proper lady type characters in it. I haven’t been to finishing school or anything, but whether I follow proper etiquette or not, I am at least aware of what proper etiquette is in Anglosphere culture. This is the first I’m hearing of this rule though. As far as I’m aware when you receive an offer of a gift, favor or compliment the two proper options – depending on the context – are to either accept or to make a show of politely rejecting and then accepting on the second offer. Returning or altogether refusing to accept would be considered uncouth in most circumstances.

Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

@kimstu

I don’t think etiquette perceptions are necessarily a gendered thing.

Then you don’t know the first thing about the history, theory, or practice of modern WASP etiquette, and you need to shut the hell up about it until you do.

I certainly didn’t mean to imply, when I said that certain behavior could “come across as looking” a certain way, that what mattered was how it could “come across as looking” to men in particular.

You may not have meant to imply that, but nevertheless you did so, and continue to do so.

JS
JS
4 years ago

@Kimstu, It’s not etiquette you are talking about, anyway. You’re trying to explain to us how it’s vital that, if someone makes the decision to “ask for money back after a bad date”, that EVERYONE who gets asked that absolutely must pay it back as soon as possible, on pain of feeling greedy and disgusting. I don’t think your explanation is useful. I don’t think it’s even meaningful at this point.

The very idea that I must feel greedy and disgusting because I failed to pay back someone who didn’t like dating me is illogical. The alternate idea that I must feel good about myself because I paid off a creep isn’t any better.

I now have a much better feel for what “Mansplaining” is, so thank you for that much, I guess.

IgnoreSandra
IgnoreSandra
4 years ago

@WWTH
I was taught that it’s proper to accept gifts, pretend to reject gifts before accepting them, or offer reciprocal gifts depending on context. And also that some gifts can be sold or re-gifted, but others must be kept – and should a gift be disposed of, it should not be done in front of the gifter.

I hate the formal rules, though, so my personal policy for gifts is: I give it, I no longer have a say about what happens to it. I receive it, you no longer have a say about what happens to it.

I was also taught a very important exception – “proper” behavior no longer applies if the other person is acting as an opponent, enemy, or threat. You know, as a creep always is. You do what’s necessary to defeat/overcome/escape the threat.

Like you, I was never ever taught to return gifts to people I hate. I have literally never heard of this “rule” kimstu is peddling, and it makes no sense no matter how many words they devote to “explaining” it.

PeeVee the (Timber-Rattling Booger Slut, But Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Timber-Rattling Booger Slut, But Noice) Sarcastic
4 years ago
Viscaria the Cheese Hog
Viscaria the Cheese Hog
4 years ago

Seriously though, am I the only one who has never heard of this Very Important Etiquette Principle about how you’re supposed to return a gift if the giver doesn’t appear to be giving it unreservedly?

I, too, was previously ignorant of this crucial practice of polite society. Of course, what could I possibly know about sophisticated behaviour? No man has ever even given me a mink!

All sarcasm aside, what’s funny is that giving a gift back is not necessarily a bad idea in similar circumstances, depending on the message you’re trying to convey. It’s just the one-size-fits-all Miss Manners prescriptiveness that I don’t get. Sometimes something is a good idea in one case… And not a good idea in another case! Would you even believe.

Kimstu
Kimstu
4 years ago

@Policy of Madness:

the purpose of etiquette is to make social interactions go smoothly. That is its only purpose.

Sure. But is that the only purpose of discussing etiquette?

@Policy of Madness:

You’re not making social interactions go smoothly here, so you’re doing etiquette wrong […]
you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about […] Just. Fucking. Stop.

Smooth.

JS
JS
4 years ago

It’s official, we’ve gone meta.

Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent + Bard of the New Movement
Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent + Bard of the New Movement
4 years ago

@Kimstu

somebody’s takin’ the train to sleepytime junction

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
4 years ago

Kimstu,

Do you realize that some of us contribute to the upkeep of this blog? That’s right, You have Allowed Us the Social Privilege Of Spending Money on You! You must Immediately Demonstrate Your Scorn by Returning The Money!! I for one will not feel Properly Scorned until You Return $25 to me for Each Comment in This Thread! And if You Do Not Return the Money Right Now, You Will Be Seen As GREEDY, DEMANDING, CLASSLESS, and A Craven Lickspittle Totally Lacking Independence!!

Kimstu
Kimstu
4 years ago

@Hippodameia:

Kimstu, trying to continue a conversation in which you aren’t welcome makes you look greedy and demanding

Well, naturally. But if people keep replying to me, and arguing with specific points I bring up, and continuing to address their posts to me, it’s kind of hard to sell that as “a conversation in which I’m not welcome”.

Honestly, folks, if you don’t want me to talk about this to you any more, then just don’t go on talking to me about it. I don’t mind. If you want me to stay out of the conversation while you talk to one another about it, or talk to one another about something else, or complain to one another about me (very etiquette), that’s fine too. But if people go on directly replying to me, I’ll probably go on replying to them.