Men’s Rights Activists and other warriors against cultural misandry often complain that women accuse them of being creepy, not because they’re genuinely creepy but just because they’re men, men guilty of no crime other than not looking like Brad Pitt.
One of these fellows took to the Men’s Rights subreddit recently with a sad tale of being unfairly profiled as a creeper just because he was lurking in a truck in the parking lot of a pharmacy until after the store closed, hoping he could chat up one of the store employees while she was walking to her car.
I know, totally unfair!
Here’s his sad tale, in his own words:
I was in a small town in NJ, spending the night in my truck waiting for a job in the morning. I park at corner pharmacy lot. I go in once and buy my items. Checkout girl is cute, make up a reason to go back in. We chat for a few seconds at most. I go back to my truck to browse the ol Reddit. Place closes at 10. I’m kinda hoping the checkout girl comes out so we can chat some more.
Yeah, yeah, I know, some of you gals have already decided he’s a creep. Isn’t a guy allowed to buy something from a cute checkout girl, to leave the store to go back to his truck, then return to the store on a pretext to chat with the cute checkout girl, then go back to his truck and just, you know, lurk there until the store closes reading his smart phone? Seriously, who could possibly find any of that suspicious?
At 10:05 pm 3 cops surround my vehicle and demand identification, claiming the employees of pharmacy we’re afraid to go to their vehicles because of a suspicious work truck with a big scary man in it.
GOSH HOW COULD ANYONE BE SUSPICIOUS OF HIM. Clearly there is some big time misandering going on here.
Obviously they want to delay me so the employees can get safely out. That is somewhat understandable, but God damn, I go out of my way to not be creepy around women, as I am a very big person.
And what an amazing job he did this time not being creepy!
What is it like to be a woman? Are you constantly afraid of being raped everywhere you go? Kidnapped? Murdered? I exchanged maybe a dozen words and a friendly smile with a cute cashier and I immediately got the cops called on me. Fuck.
Yeah, it’s not as if you WENT BACK INTO THE STORE ON FALSE PRETENSES SO YOU COULD TRY TO CHAT HER UP and then got into your truck and DIDN’T LEAVE. AT NIGHT. WHEN THE STORE WAS CLOSING.
The cops have been here for 30 minutes parked right next to me as I type this. It seems like all men are guilty until proven innocent…
CREEP RIGHTS NOW!
I can’t help but think of this scene from Tucker and Dale vs Evil.
In Dale’s defense [Spoiler alert!] he doesn’t immediately run to the Men’s Rights subreddit to whine about misandry, and despite taking the bad advice of his friend here he does turn out to be a genuinely good dude who honestly doesn’t want to creep anyone out.
He’s also got a little bit more self-awareness than our friend in the truck. Can Reddit truck dude even be real, or is this actually some kind of masterful trolling?
Most of the Men’s Rights redditors commenting on the story actually do tell him he was acting creepy as hell, so I’ll give them a few points for that.
@Francesca Torpedo
Its not the weight so much as the un-ergonomic and inconvenient way in which it is carried. Modern bra engineering is pretty good, at least.
I’m a climber and a caver and a side-sleeper amongst other things; if I had to carry around big boobs it’d drive me mad, I’m sure.
@Alan
Wow! I have to agree: Evil stalks this planet.
Regarding creepy or awkward, I used to give some of those guys a chance because I thought they were just socially awkward.
Now I think I was wrong.
I gave those guys a chance, and they turned out to be creeps.
Besides, even I try to reassure other women that I’m not a threat. When I walk behind a female pedestrian at night, I clear my throat or cough to let her know I’m a woman. It’s not a big deal to treat others with a minimum of sensitivity. I understand that for a man (or really, any gender), whistling works. Someone with evil intent is unlikely to announce his presence. Bonus points for whistling upbeat classical music.
The truck guy himself, despite his size, should be wary of people willing to approach him in the dark late at night. You would not want to meet Joanna Dennehy under those circumstances…
@ Kat
There are a number of behaviours that are supposedly seen as non threatening. Be interesting to hear whether people agree. Whistling is one. You’re announcing your presence in a non intimidating manner. And being ‘otherwise occupied’ is meant to feel safe. So if someone in a lift or on public transport is engaged in a phone call or fiddling with their phone. I suppose it’s the fact that they’re being oblivious to you so they’re obviously not interested in, or have even noticed, you?
I tend to err on the side of oblivious, giving people the benefit of the doubt.
But there are some men who do seem to actively enjoy making women feel uncomfortable and unsafe. They are not intending to DO anything physical, but obviously get a real kick out of seeing a woman’s fear. I have not experienced this much personally, as I am large and aggressive, and stopped being actually afraid a long time ago (never not wary and aware though), but have seen it happen quite a lot.
@ pie
Maybe you and DanHolme can swap spelunking tales?
Speaking of which, this is an old legal thing you might find amusing…
http://www.nullapoena.de/stud/explorers.html
@Alan
It’s pretty obvious if someone is trying to appear as if they’re not paying attention to you. We’re all quite good at sensing these things, not due to any supernatural reasons but just as human beings. As a woman, I am always aware if someone nearby (say, in a lift or a train carriage) is thinking about me but trying to hide it. It would be less creepy if they’d just say “hi, how’s this weather eh?” than try to be ‘not creepy’. If someone is genuinely engrossed in their phone, or genuinely whistling unconcernedly, you can pick that. If they’re doing it just to try to seem unconcerned, it’s somehow quite obvious. I say, go ahead and smile awkwardly and mumble something innocuous. I’ll be less concerned about that.
@IgnoreS
He says he’s coming to England later this year for a short road trip, wants to see me. I want to ask him what was up with that event but do it in an oh so casual I’m-not-accusing-you-of-anything manner. See what his response is. I’m slightly erring on the side of “he didn’t think how it would come across” because again, his personality sort of fits that (he’s quite impulsive). But I would like to know for sure so I can relax. That evening kind of sticks out like a sore thumb from my entire trip to Hamburg, which was otherwise a very enjoyable holiday.
@Alan
Jesus that’s horrible. This is why I really hope that under times of great threat my “freeze” instinct doesn’t kick in. If my body allows, my general plan is “fight the fucker off and worry about legal consequences later.” But then we get into the realm of Use of Excessive Force laws etc…then there’s that whole “risk aggravating your assailant”…
I know that men aren’t exempt from it but I’d say that, apart from the whole periods and childbirth and uterus stuff, the constant personal safety analysis us women have to do is the worst part about being female. I’d give anything not to have to worry about rape or murder as much as we’re expected to. Since you know, society still act like these things are our own fault somehow.
@ elllesar
Just let them know you’re from Hoxton and they’ll probably back down for fear of ending up in some motorway foundations.
@ lucrece
I love your picture btw, reminds me of those brilliant Norman Thelwell illustrations.
And thanks to both for the input on the ‘threat matrix’ issue. This is very useful to hear.
Dimethecone products are great for thigh rub. Vagisil makes a good one. If you can’t find it, clear make-up primer is almost the same thing. It just costs more.
@ sunnysombrera
That’s a vital, yet often overlooked consideration. The literature is full of cases of martial arts experts and the like getting battered because they froze when faced with real world violence. We actually spend more time drilling people to avoid that than on the actual techniques.
I’ve actually put some notes together for that. They were inspired by our Antifa discussions but they’re equally applicable to general self defence. They’re just in the process of being edited by some of our more literate (than me) Mammotheers.
As always, it should be noted that some people are given more leeway for self defense than others. The Black woman in Florida (IRRC her name is Marissa Alexander) getting 20 years for firing a warning shot to escape her abuser comes to mind.
LOL – I am from Crouch End! Grew up there, that is.
We really aren’t that gangster round here, but I can’t deny that living in the borough of Hackney for 25 of the last 30 years has toughened me up.
@Alan
Thank you! Yes, it is a bit reminiscent. ?
My mum has drilled into me that I should always trust my ‘gut instinct’. As she says, it’s better to overestimate the danger and stay safe, than underestimate and possibly be in danger. And this is really what the rape schedule is all about – I don’t get the luxury of giving anyone the benefit of the doubt because if I make a mistake, it could be catastrophic if not fatal.
It’s quite against my nature since I’m generally very trusting, but I do get odd feelings sometimes and I’ve been stalked enough in my life to take the feelings seriously. My poor dad has been the recipient of many late night calls when I’m walking home from a function and want to make sure someone knows where I am. I stay on the phone until I get to either my car or into the train.
Garbage humans cause so much anxiety and misery (and sleeplessness) in this world. I wish we could put them all on an island together á la Lord of the Flies.
@Fran, Dali, Sandra, and misophistry:
Thank you for sharing, I really appreciate the insights you have provided. Thank you for also pointing out how cis-normative insisting that someone must ‘pass’ or be a bad trans person is. It is something that i knew, but hadn’t put into so many words.
Re: my favourite murder: haha, there are a lot of sidebars and different types of corners in that podcast. They typically chat with each other for a while, then tell each other stories after.
It’s kind of like you’re hanging out with friends.
Re: positioning and creeps – i have a friend who is… Not a big guy, but an intimidating guy. Solid, shaved head, big beard. If you know him, you know he’s a sweety, but if you didn’t… his resting face is a little intimidating.
As such, he says that he always gives women lots of space when he’s walking somewhere, because he knows he can be intimidating and doesn’t want to scare anyone.
It’s not hard to avoid being creepy.
@Alan Robertshaw
Re ‘Speluncean Explorers’
I quite like that. I get the dilemma that the essay is proposing, and the different judgements that could follow. It’s like an underground ‘Richard Parker’ scenario. I get that, so please don’t think the following is too nit-picking:
It’s just… A cave with one entrance closed by a landslide is going to be sealed pretty tight. A cave with TWO entrances has a flow of air through it, a cave with one does not. My own limited experience of being trapped in a cave even with lots of air flow, due to the way I was constricted, meant I was soon breathing back in a pretty heavy concentration of my own carbon dioxide, hence why I don’t remember it too well. Five people, in a tightly sealed cave for twenty days would soon have used up enough oxygen to make themselves, at the very least, incapable of rational thought; would they still be considered capable of ‘murder’ in that case.
More likely, the ‘bad air’, and hypothermia, would have carried them off.
A mine would be a different story; mines have ventilation, and potentially several ways in or out. This has its own issues – there was a real life murder case in which the miners at the Magpie Mine entrance lit a fire to smoke out those in another part of the mine, who had broken through and were claiming title over the vein. The smoke choked three of the miners at the Redsoil Mine, and five of the Magpie Miners were arrested; then, controversially, acquitted – partly, it appears, because the Redsoil miners were Cornish migrants who weren’t terribly welcome in Derbyshire. Plus ca change.
Thanks to Fran and Dali for the discussion re passing, girl dicks, etc. I personally find trans women w dicks hot as hell. Rock on, you badass chicks.
Here’s another take on “passing” and gender normativity. I’m tall and broad-shouldered, with hands, head and feet too big for women’s gloves, hats, shoes. I’m well muscled and overweight, with big breasts. I have strong Slavic features. I routinely get called sir by people who aren’t paying attention, just on the basis of my size. My voice is deep for a woman, tenor for a man, and I can make it rough or smooth. With short hair, a bandage on my chest, a bit of attitude and a tiny bit of mascara on the upper lip and jaw I can pass as male. It takes more effort to gussy myself up as a lady, not to mention garments designed by engineers.
I’m indisputably female, physically and psychologically. Never felt especially feminine, but I don’t identify as anything but female. And yet, I do not “pass” as female without more work than it take to pass as male.
My experience does not compare to the challenges and complexities of trans; I am in awe of you guys, your self-awareness and courage.
My story just illustrates that binary expectations can be weird for cis people, too.
Also, I can confirm that harassers are gonna harass. I have been catcalled and groped as sexy, abused as too butch, and abused as too fat, all on the same walk. I’m 63; it still happens, all of it – although admittedly less often; age does bestow some invisibility. And yeah, come to think of it, I still follow the rape schedule. Unless I have mascara on my moustache and my boobs taped down.
ETA: not t have excluded Sandra and others on the trans discussion, I just started this hours ago, and am running out of time… thanks all.
Re: thigh chafing
As a fat woman who’s never been remotely close to having a thigh gap, I can share my experience of avoiding chafing while wearing skirts and dresses.
Bike shorts and leggings are excellent. If possible, get them in a smooth lycra-containing fabric that’s made to wick away moisture. Cottony stretch ones seem like a good idea and are very comfortable, but they tend to catch on the overlying fabric of the skirt/dress and cause it to ride up as you walk. Constantly pulling down your skirt is a bloody pain in the neck. Long leggings are generally quite acceptable under skirts and dresses these days and are a great way of putting off shaving your legs (if you like to do that, which I do).
If shorts or leggings aren’t desirable, I suggest a good quality moisturiser on the inside of the thigh, spread from the thigh creases up top to around half way down. I’ve had a lot of success with Dermalogica body cream and soothing treatment oil mixed together. Very thick creams aren’t helpful in high wear areas because they cause skin to stick together which contributes to chafing. What’s needed, not to put too fine a point on it, is lubrication, preferably something slightly oily so it doesn’t just evaporate or absorb into the skin.
Avoid powders, they turn into an abrasive paste when you sweat. This causes micro abrasions on your skin which opens it up to more infections. Some powders are used in a paste by lens makers for fine grinding work – that should give you some indication of why they’re not good against skin chafing!
In skin folds, I prefer Bepanthen cream (not ointment) to keep down irritation, but it’s not suitable for high wear areas. I also dislike zinc creams – they always feel quite drying and sticky. Personal preference though.
Sorry for essay, but hope this is useful for anyone coming to grips with non-bisected leg wear for the first time. Also, PSA – nighties are amazing – get into them! Especially long lacy light cotton ones. I love those in summer ?
@Alan:
Canadian comedy duo Wayne and Shuster did the ‘Martinus’ joke decades ago. Then again, they were ones who did the Shakespearean baseball game skit:
They liked intelligent humour. You were expected to be able to follow along.
@ jenora
One thing I enjoyed about Latin (perhaps the only thing) was how funny some of the original Roman writers were; and how filthy! We were lucky in that, catholic school notwithstanding, our teacher believed only the non bowdlerised versions were authentic. This was his translation of a Catullus favourite.
“You ask me dear old Marcus
How country life I bear
The answer is quite easy
It’s cos you’re not fucking there”
I can still remember that to this day, so obviously worked. We also probably knew more about sticking radishes up your bum than the average 14 year old.
@ dan
That was partly the inspiration. I like it though in that’s it’s sci-fi story as legal article; and it does address the key principles very well. It’s quite famous in legal circles.
@Alan:
Well, given some of the graffiti found in Pompeii, I have little doubt about how filthy some of the writers could get.
Heck, there’s some pretty filthy stuff in the Bible. Ezekiel 23:20, anyone?
It doesn’t take much reading of the classics to realize that, no, basic human nature hasn’t changed significantly in the last few millennia.
(One of my favourite Latin quotes, and one I used as the motto for a supervillain group in a game I was involved with: “Nihil tam munitum quod non expugnari pecunia possit” – No fort is so strong that it cannot be taken with money.)
@ jenora
There’s some similarly earthy Viking graffiti in Jorvik.
And I love that quote. Funnily enough Sun Zsu expressed exactly the same sentiments. Like you say, people haven’t changed.
@Misophistry
Yes, exactly! 😀 It’s quite the Morton’s Fork I’m impaled on.
I would, actually, like to be a sexy, 100% passing girl with all the feminine attributes. At the same time, I would like to retain my large, fully functional, thick girldick. I’m very proud of it. It’s really awesome.
Admittedly, I am really interested in what having a vagina would be like. If it were possible, I would like to have both sets of genitalia, but science hasn’t advanced far enough to allow that.
When I say I’m rebelling against the cisnormative bullshit, I don’t mean I would like to be androgynous – merely that I would like to be a desirable, totally feminine woman who also has a big dick, because, you know, cisnormative society says you can’t do that.
This is why I’m very proud of Dali and Sandra and their big girldicks on their very femmy bodies. They have achieved the pinnacle of Non-Heteronormative Transgirldom.
I can do without being androgynous for the rest of my life.
Now, let me just add a quick disclaimer: I realize not all women are sexy demigoddesses. I’m sure some of the ladies in here who aren’t supermodels with big butts and huge breasts are probably frowning super hard at our idealized view of what it is to be female, and, yeah, I understand that being a lady isn’t about being super sexy and arousing to the cis-male peen.
So I’ll give the ‘mones a shot and see what happens, as per Dali’s suggestion. I’m really dedicated to the idea of being femme; you can be certain I’ll be getting plastic surgery to complete my look.
@Lysistrata
Don’t forget Sandra, the other roguish, quirky Mammotheer girl with a fat girldick! 😀
Together, we make up the Bad Girl Gang.
I know I’m not supposed to, but your reaction excites me greatly.
I say I’m ‘not supposed to’ because a contingent of transpeople insist that people shouldn’t say that and that we should not do this.
They say people like you are making us disgusting fetish objects, and that we’re encouraging that.
HOWEVER…I, personally, speaking for myself? I love that. I want you to be aroused and for your passion to be inflamed by my attributes.
I’m not the only one who feels that way. Some of us quite like stirring the erotic desire one feels when approaching a fully feminine woman with a dick. It’s exactly what we’re shooting for.
Hopefully this isn’t impolite, but I find this really hot.
Like, all I can think about now is what your large hands must feel like around my waist.
To continue my non-heteronormative desires, I am strongly attracted to women with your attributes.
I consider myself sort of lucky to have such broad shoulders for a woman (I’ve had boyfriends whose shoulders weren’t as wide as mine) because it helps me carry around the weight(s) that are the result of wearing a 30H size bra. If anything I’d like to be taller but it’s too late for me to get a genetic do-over, with both parents being relatively short people as well.
I feel silly complaining about such things, but it seems like no matter what there will always be SOMEONE telling us we’re not woman-ing correctly, and too many of us have been allowing ourselves to try and change after hearing all the stuff that is supposedly wrong or doesn’t fit someone’s idea of what a woman should do/wear/look like/act like. To hell with those jerks. You do you and don’t let anyone tell you you’re doing it wrong.