Men’s Rights Activists and other warriors against cultural misandry often complain that women accuse them of being creepy, not because they’re genuinely creepy but just because they’re men, men guilty of no crime other than not looking like Brad Pitt.
One of these fellows took to the Men’s Rights subreddit recently with a sad tale of being unfairly profiled as a creeper just because he was lurking in a truck in the parking lot of a pharmacy until after the store closed, hoping he could chat up one of the store employees while she was walking to her car.
I know, totally unfair!
Here’s his sad tale, in his own words:
I was in a small town in NJ, spending the night in my truck waiting for a job in the morning. I park at corner pharmacy lot. I go in once and buy my items. Checkout girl is cute, make up a reason to go back in. We chat for a few seconds at most. I go back to my truck to browse the ol Reddit. Place closes at 10. I’m kinda hoping the checkout girl comes out so we can chat some more.
Yeah, yeah, I know, some of you gals have already decided he’s a creep. Isn’t a guy allowed to buy something from a cute checkout girl, to leave the store to go back to his truck, then return to the store on a pretext to chat with the cute checkout girl, then go back to his truck and just, you know, lurk there until the store closes reading his smart phone? Seriously, who could possibly find any of that suspicious?
At 10:05 pm 3 cops surround my vehicle and demand identification, claiming the employees of pharmacy we’re afraid to go to their vehicles because of a suspicious work truck with a big scary man in it.
GOSH HOW COULD ANYONE BE SUSPICIOUS OF HIM. Clearly there is some big time misandering going on here.
Obviously they want to delay me so the employees can get safely out. That is somewhat understandable, but God damn, I go out of my way to not be creepy around women, as I am a very big person.
And what an amazing job he did this time not being creepy!
What is it like to be a woman? Are you constantly afraid of being raped everywhere you go? Kidnapped? Murdered? I exchanged maybe a dozen words and a friendly smile with a cute cashier and I immediately got the cops called on me. Fuck.
Yeah, it’s not as if you WENT BACK INTO THE STORE ON FALSE PRETENSES SO YOU COULD TRY TO CHAT HER UP and then got into your truck and DIDN’T LEAVE. AT NIGHT. WHEN THE STORE WAS CLOSING.
The cops have been here for 30 minutes parked right next to me as I type this. It seems like all men are guilty until proven innocent…
CREEP RIGHTS NOW!
I can’t help but think of this scene from Tucker and Dale vs Evil.
In Dale’s defense [Spoiler alert!] he doesn’t immediately run to the Men’s Rights subreddit to whine about misandry, and despite taking the bad advice of his friend here he does turn out to be a genuinely good dude who honestly doesn’t want to creep anyone out.
He’s also got a little bit more self-awareness than our friend in the truck. Can Reddit truck dude even be real, or is this actually some kind of masterful trolling?
Most of the Men’s Rights redditors commenting on the story actually do tell him he was acting creepy as hell, so I’ll give them a few points for that.
Uh, yeah, pretty much this. Or at least hyper-aware at all times that it is possible.
*trigger warning- rape/violence
When I was in high school, several girls in my area were abducted. Although their was a suspect for at least one of them, he was never arrested for that particular rape/murder (not enough evidence even though they found the girl’s body), but for a DIFFERENT abduction/rape he had committed in another state where the girl had at least been lucky enough to escape. Many years later, he finally fessed up to one of the other disappearances that had never been solved, so at least the poor girl’s family has closure now? But there was always that fear that there was at least one guy out there, probably more, that were capable of that kind of monstrous act.
When I was working retail, a friend of mine was almost followed out when she left her shift for the day. Fortunately she noticed the guy following her through the mall and back tracked to the store to call security. After that, we tried to walk out in pairs, or get security if that was not possible. We “joked” that it was always around Christmas that all the worst creepers came out, because incidents like that were more common then.
Then the little things like getting out your car keys before leaving the store, having to always be aware of your surroundings, worrying if you smiled too much or were too polite (as part of your job) he’d get the wrong idea, having to keep total control of all your drinks (yes, even non-alcoholic ones) at parties and bars when you go out, etc…
But I get the feeling he meant that as a mocking/rhetorical question and is too dense to learn, sadly.
I wonder if it’s possible to come up with a hypothesis for why that happens, that is uglier than the actual reason.
@Fran:
Oh, I shall. He won’t escape my wrath. I have close to 40 years’ experience at dealing with creepers.
(No shit. My boobs started to grow when I was just shy of my 10th birthday. Aaaaand it was right about that time that I became aware that sexual harassment existed. When I found out, a couple of years later, that it had a name, I was floored…and relieved not to be the only one. And then, promptly, infuriated that it was so damn common. Damn, it’s exhausting to not have this shit go away even after you reach A Certain Age…)
@Sandra
Best of luck.
@Dali, re: long skirts
Thanks–now all I need to do is get my paws on a solid stick vs. clinical semi-solid (which isn’t really working for me) or gel.
@Fran
Now I just need some semblance of monies that I don’t plan to spend on things to work up to my Halloween costume of Brittany from Pikmin 3. (You know of that, anyone, you get brownie points.) This includes purchasing obscure fruits.
In my experience, spring is creeper season. I think it’s because in MN, we spend several months covered up. Then it finally warms up and the coats get put away and the skirts and cute little shoes come out. It gets em all excited. Maybe it’s just me. Or maybe it’s a thing that varies by climate.
For uncertain reasons (My careful, mildly anxious nature? The fact that I tend to have a very purposeful walk? Sheer dumb luck? All of the above?), I haven’t really experienced much in the way of sexual harassment-or if I have, I haven’t noticed it. The worst example I can think of is that a few years back a guy I casually knew and had exchanged numbers with on a platonic basis wanted to go up to romantic status and got pushy on the phone, but I was able to put a stop to it and he hasn’t called me since. I realize that my relative lack of harassment is an incredible privilege, but should I feel guilty about it?
“What is it like to be a woman? Are you constantly afraid of being raped everywhere you go? Kidnapped? Murdered?”
Given my relative lack of harassment (knock on wood), I tend to look at this from a more general perspective: while certain horrible acts are more likely to be male-on-female violence, any of us are capable of raping/kidnapping/murdering/doing any number of horrible things to anyone else, and therefore we should all stay aware and do what we can to keep ourselves safe.
@weirwoodtreehugger
That’s an interesting theory. I’m in Texas, so “winter” here is probably more like mid/late spring for you. We have at least one family picture on Christmas where we’re all in shorts, outside, cooking barbecue. Its one of the few times of the year where outdoors is actually pleasant and not a sauna.
@Nikki
I don’t think there’s any reason to feel guilty about that.
@Faerie Bard
Thank you.
I try to do what I can to use my various forms of privilege (white, cishet, middle-class background, relatively little sexual harassment) to help others not as well off. As of now I’m not really able to contribute financially to feminist/pro-reproductive choice organizations or physically attend protests (not enough money or travel time-I do plan to start donating once I’m more financially solvent), but I stay updated here to remain aware of misogyny, and I sign a number of free online petitions that benefit feminist/pro-reproductive choice causes. I don’t say this to brag, but because I feel the responsibility to offset my privilege.
Hmm.
I’m AFAB. And agender.
I present female-ish.
I haven’t been harassed since my teens. I was slimmer then. Still fat, but not as fat as now.
I also don’t get much harassment for my fatness.
Probably because I look pretty androgynous and could be a fat dude…
So much trans girl positivity in this thread. I fucking love it.
Re: Asshole trans people demanding passing or death
I’ve heard about this shit and it always upsets me, not only because I worry about being able to pass myself because my dysphoria spends most of its time beating me with a stick. The idea that there’s some kind of arbitrary standard you have to hold yourself to, that you have to be this trans to be valid, is sickening.
A game I discovered recently actually talks about this, to an extent. It incorporates actual things the developers have read and heard from other people and said to themselves. (Basically, the city area is full of uppity “you shall pass” trans people). It made me both feel like shit but also kind of glad I’ve never had anyone say something like that to me. Sometimes being reclusive has its advantages.
Let me just say this, I understood things like this were creepy quite a while ago… What’s so difficult, bro?
This is one reason large and/or tall men may try to be extra gentle. With enough experience, they get the idea that people can be scared of them. Unfortunately some people take more than 18 years to get the hang of “not being a creep”.
I’ve actually been trained on how to act creepy. Invade personal space. Follow behind, slowly getting closer. Make an odd sound when they’re all relaxed thinking it’s over. Come in from odd angles. Don’t get too close unless you’re willing to take a punch. Corollary: be ready to move quick to avoid punch if you have to, even people knowing it’s a “haunted house” may react reflexively. If you do get reflex punched for scaring someone, it’s your own fault. If they say “I want out” (or whatever the “stop play” phrase is) break character and back off. Help them out to a safe place.
I can turn off that character though. Some of these guys don’t even realize what they’re doing. The rest are doing it on purpose, and ruining things for the not-creepy people.
As a cashier I get this a lot, but we have security! I was glad of it the other day when we tried to ban a large alchoholic. He made a run fo the white cider and security had to sit on him. We don’t sell that shit no more it is the bad cider.
Well I wanted to talk about creepy men some but you’ve derailed me fran. I’m the other kind of trans and I feel I should represent.
I din’t like my dick I prefer a fanny. But don’t feel I have anything against your dick ;). I know these transnazis you mention exist because they have been seen in the comments. Sad. Enlightenment passed them by but did not stop.
My transexual mentor was a bit of a high heels nazi. She’d spent her whole life as a prostitute and had internalized a hella lot of patriarchy. Stunningly beautiful and a total pass, she did great as a prostitute but all she really wanted was to get married to the one. I thought being on the game, always wearing high heels and a dress and constantly guarding against doing anything unfeminine was not for me but she would try and push it on me. We stopped hanging out because she tried to set me up with one of her Johns.
I transitioned at 19 and was lucky (from my point of view) to not have masculine features. After 5 years of hormones my boobs peaked at a DD (down to a BB now thank gawd). I will say (with a good trace of shame at my narcissism) that I am smoking hot. This has lead to a lot of street harassment. I wore hot-pants once and was asked “how much do you charge?” by builders. Never again shall I wear hot pants in public which is a shame.
For me passing is important… too important… possibly mental health problem inducing important and the reason I take anxiety meds. To you Francesca this might seem silly and quite possibly boring, and it is a bore, but I just want a quiet life and transitioning all the way without reservation has provided it so far.
I am deeply impressed and grateful to you Fran that you stand unashamed in the middle ground brandishing your girl-dick and smashing patriarchy with it, but that also is not for me.
I do feel I pass and men flirt harmlessly (hopefully) with me in work. One of them did once say that I was a lovely person and then repeated it several times for emphasis but I just said “well that’s just part of the job, as is being patient with customers”
Sometimes I wonder if I do pass or if people are just incredibly polite these days but then I think back. Before I passed people were really fucking rude. Now they just chat me up. Will I ever stop worrying about it?
When I was visiting my (not really close) friend in Germany something happened that made me feel scared, since you know, we always have that rape/murder fear in the back of our minds. I’m torn between wondering if it was something sinister or that he had no idea how much the situation would concern a woman he doesn’t know brilliantly well.
I was hanging out at his house for dinner, afterwards he suggested we go “for a walk.” This was about 9.30pm and fully dark outside. He leads the way since he knows the area and we end up walking through his uni campus. It’s not well lit. There aren’t many people around. He makes noises about seeing if a local bar is open (goes to check when we pass it) and if there are any parties going on. I just say “oh ok.” It’s when we walk through a particularly dark patch that I feel fear in my gut and say “I’m tired, I want to go home.” He agrees and walks me to the metro station.
So. Was friend acting concerning or was he just being clueless? Knowing his personality cluelessness is a likely option.
@JS
I don’t care if they’re clueless, doing it on purpose, or “ruining things” for people who aren’t creepy. Not being creepy is minimum behavior. People don’t get rewarded for minimum standard of behavior in my book. They simply have to meet the minimum standard. That’s it.
I think a lot of us here understand creepiness. It’s been applied against us, and some of us (Such as myself) may have even worked in “haunted” attractions in the past. In any event, guys being creepy to feminine people is substantially different than haunted attraction creepy.
@Misophistry
Honestly, you probably do pass. I’m happy for you <3 I don't know if you'll ever stop worrying about it. But then I've only been on hormones for four months, so…yeah. I don't know. Thanks for sharing your experiences.
I seek out teachers of different feminine things now and then. But I'm broke and battling depression, so I don't have a ton of energy to exercise all of them. So yeah. I dunno.
@sunnysombrera
I think if there’s any doubt at all, or if you confront him over this and he minimizes your fear, it’s better not to give him any chances. But then I have a very short way with people who even remotely trigger my creepometer.
Re: creepy behaviour
There’s something I’d like to canvass opinions on if folks would be kind enough to share.
It’s often said in the self defence community that people who intend no harm take steps (whether consciously or unconsciously) to demonstrate that. So for example, in an otherwise empty lift they’ll stand as far away as possible or if finding themselves walking behind a woman at night they’ll cross to the other side of the road.
Now some people may just be oblivious to things like personal space or their effect on people and ‘intrude’ without realising it, but of course this may be indistinguishable from people who are deliberately trying to intimidate or put someone at unease.
We’ve covered some of this with creepy trucker bloke, but it’s always helpful to get perspectives from folks, so any comments/thoughts gratefully received.
Re: Creepy behavior
I agree completely. People who intend harm, or intend no harm, demonstrate such things to you whether by choice or by habit.
People who intend harm will position themselves where they can see you but you can’t see them, they’ll hang around in your blind spots, they’ll make an effort to collide if walking opposite ways, they’ll make sure you notice them noticing your car, they’ll get within engagement range in dark areas, they’ll come back in the store on a flimsy pretext to stare at you. Is this by choice? I doubt it.
People who don’t intend harm will keep a healthy distance from you and otherwise not really give a shit what you’re doing unless you’re doing something fantastic. Like eating a giant bag of cheese chips while petting a cat and your friend massages your feet. But that’s envy, that’s a bit different than creeping.
@Misophistry
Not at all, actually. I’m jealous. I desperately wish I could transition all the way.
Dali says that hormones are not really a death sentence for one’s girldick (if anything, it seems to only cause erectile dysfunction to an unlucky few), however, so I’m gonna do it anyway and see what happens.
I actually would like to pass 100%. As I said earlier in the thread, it would be super cool if I had all the feminine attributes – huge breasts (the DDs you mentioned you had are absolutely a thing I would like and if I were you I would have kept them. I know they are hell on your lower back muscles, but I lift weights – carrying around extra weight is hardly an issue for me), smooth skin, softer voice tones, and so on.
I have heard that you even smell and taste differently when you’re on mones. Like, your pheromones change sharply.
So, yeah – it’s not so much that I enjoy not passing and fucking with people’s minds by being androgynous, it’s just that my choices may interfere with my ability to pass, and I decided I’d better not get my hopes up before I become hopelessly quagmired in despair about myself.
I hate being androgynous and would like to be fully femme, but I have prepared myself for the contingency in which hormones cause my girldick to stop working, in which case I’d have to refrain from doing it.
If I luck out and the ‘mones cause my girldick no ill effects, you will have an (almost) fully passing Fran on your hands and everything will be peachy pie.
[makes grabby hands]
Why can’t I be like you?
WHY.
That’s all I would like. God.
@ ignoresandra
Ah, thanks for that, and you’ve also reminded me of something that I’d completely failed to connect before. There’s a thing called the ‘five stages model’ that’s used in violent crime analysis. Basically it breaks down attacks into five stages (intent, interview, positioning, attack, aftermath).
The positioning thing is now obvious (Ta) but I suppose it could also apply to the interview stage. That’s where a predator assesses the potential victim as a target. It’s not always verbal, it can be something like walking past a person a couple of times and seeing if they notice. But it can also be ‘testing’ reactions to behaviour. That could include intimidation.
And now that all ties in with some predatory behaviour analysis and the tactics they use to manipulate. Hmm, you’ve given me some ideas here. Cheers.
Thankyou IgnoreSandra. I suppose no-one ever stops worrying about their bugbear altogether. I was very lucky really and I’m conscious of that when I talk about this. I’m also conscious that I like to talk about myself a lot, but it is so refreshing being basically anonymous that I cannot resist telling you my life story.
Hormone wise they always have me on a double dose of the yasmin tablets – a common birth control pill. I remember at about 4 months I thought I could see a little bean behind each nipple. The tablets also had me very emotional at first and interfered with boner function, not that I cared.
I went to the NHS to see if I could get GRS on the system but teh doctor just asked why I wasn’t wearing a dress. I said these are women’s trousers and its the 21st century dude. Needless to say I had to pay for the surgery which I could not have done without family and friends support. I am so lucky to have them, many don’t.
For me actually behaviorally being feminine was a matter of practice. By the time I got to the speech therapist it was a year after the op and after I explained what my problem was she said I already spoke like a woman. When men do falsetto they do it wrong, it is not all about pitch. Speaking like a woman is an art and as a cashier I have constant daily practice. I think that’s why they put me on the tills because I speak nice.
The hardest people to convince are people on the phone as they are not distracted by boobs etc. If you convince someone on the phone that you are unambiguously female then you are indeed…
These days I don’t think it is as important to pass as it once was.
The first time I went out with in a dress I got fondled by a sailor, got thrown out of the pub and then punched in the face in the car park. Blood everywhere. So glad my friends were there to help me or I would not have such a symmetrical face. I think this is what made me want to pass as a matter of survival. Loud noises made me jump for months afterwards.
After having spend 15 years living as a woman I can say it has been eyeopening, embarrassing and surreal, but that I am now in a very comfortable place and it was overall a fun scary ride. Its interesting to note that when I was a boy my grades had me marked out as someone with a bright future ahead, but since transition I have graduated to minimum wage cashier with a degree… suspicious.
I hope you have all the luck in this and that your boobs sprout and grow to an appropriate size. I hope what I said has been helpful and not too self absorbed. Thanks for reading
Oh Fran… I had misunderstood. that is a fascinating conundrum you got yourself there. I wouldn’t say hormones completely suppressed the boner, just made it less constant, I was 19 after all…
Hope you get your hot boobies. The problem with the surgical route besides money is that your chest skin will be tight, so you have to start small, wear them in, get slightly bigger ones, wear those in etc. Honestly I can see why my friend was on the game as she had to do it three times to get the size she wanted (big).
Alan that’s useful to bear in mind. If one thinks a creep is interviewing you you can show him the CV that says ‘has experience with eye gouging’
@ misophistry
Heh, well they do say it’s the one interview you want to fail.
But there is a lot of truth in what you say. The predator is testing the water and conducting his cost/benefit analysis. If it’s made clear there is a cost then that can be enough to head of the attack at that early stage.
And eye gouges are remarkably effective if you know how to apply them. You can do all the lifting you want but it’s hard to toughen up corneas.
*warning for horrendous domestic violence*
One of the women involved with a women’s groups we do the self defence stuff with, literally had her eyes gouged out by her abuser. :-/
@ misophistry
Well they do say it’s the one interview you want to fail.
But there is a lot of truth in what you say. The predator is testing the water and conducting his cost/benefit analysis. If it’s made clear there is a cost then that can be enough to head of the attack at that early stage.
And eye gouges are remarkably effective if you know how to apply them. You can do all the lifting you want but it’s hard to toughen up corneas.
*warning for horrendous domestic violence*
One of the women involved with a women’s groups we do the self defence stuff with, literally had her eyes gouged out by her abuser. :-/ That’s partly why I can get a bit fanatical about this sort of thing.
Alan – I was stalked once by a man who intended assault, here is the story:
Was walking early 4am on a summers morn. Displaying my lack of knowledge about male privilege and how I no longer have it I decided to walk the coastal path and watch the sunrise. Walk past tall man drinking stella from a can “uh-oh” my mind says. Turn around, man following me, still drinking stella and it occurs to me that this is not morning to him but late night. He is following and gaining and the path is long and has no turnings till the footbridge half a mile away. So I jump up onto the rock armour boulders on the seaward side and begin to pronk like a gazelle pursued by lions while continuing to move forwards. I hoped this display would learn stella-guy that I am fit, agile and sober. He gingerly ascends wall and follows. This is the clincher, he is after me. after a short pursuit where he is aided by long legs he intrudes right into my personal space boulder and says “you wana be careful where you walk love” so I tripped him off the boulder, shouted “I’ll walk wherever I fucking want” and legged it to the footbridge. Saw him walking with a limp later on. He could have drowned. Stupid stella-guy didn’t realise how being drunk and balanced on a boulder puts you at a distinct disadvantage compared to sober victim.
I am so lucky.
@Alan
HOLY. FUCKING. SHIT.
There really are monsters amongst us.
@ misophistry
Thanks for sharing that; I apprentice it can’t be easy re-visiting stuff like that. But it is always helpful to collate real world incidents. I’m very glad you were ok.
@ lucrece
There certainly are. That’s why I’m a bit over passionate about the self defence thing. TBH, it was a bit difficult meeting her. I mean, what do you say? If you want to know more she’s called Tina Nash. She won’t mind me sharing that info; she’s a bit of an advocate for highlighting DV issues. Of course, many people here will probably find her experiences depressingly familiar.