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Non-Trump Open Thread for Not Talking About Trump: May 2017 Ten Year Orgy Edition

That orgy ain’t gonna last ten years if the shark gets on the raft, dudes

An Open Thread for people who want to talk about anything other than that man in the White House. (Talk about that man here. There’s also an Open Thread for Personal Stuff here.)

No Trolls, no MRAs, no nonsense. Well, no bad nonsense. Good nonsense is fine.

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Judas Peckerwood
Judas Peckerwood
4 years ago

Good thing that dude had a hatchet handy on the life raft. The question is, why?

Pseudonym
Pseudonym
4 years ago

Orgies with sharks sounds dangerous and kind of awesome.

JS
JS
4 years ago

So, are they jumping the shark?

Bina
4 years ago

Apropos of nothing, here are two cute cats saying Mom instead of Meow:

Ooglyboggles
4 years ago

Wait if they’re having an orgy with the sharks how do they deal with the sharkskin? It’d be like having sex with a roll of sandpaper.

Ariblester
Ariblester
4 years ago

Random musing on socioeconomics (am I doing this Open Thread thing right?):

What are the possible proposals for a system which actually manages to implement “from each according to ability, to each according to need”? Will it inevitably lead to a command economy if attempted globally?

The unequal distribution of resources and the need to transport said resources for distribution (with all the attendant problems of how to build, maintain and power said transport system) would probably require a high level of coordination. Would such a coordinating body inevitably become a State? And how would the expenditures of said coordination and transport be accounted for? Would money still be a thing in such a system, even if in the sense of “internal unit for accounting”?

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
4 years ago
dikdik
dikdik
4 years ago

Hey, what’s up! It’s been a minute. I’ve become obsessed with minecraft. It’s taken the place of Dark Souls, but I really want to go back to Dark Souls I think, but 30 minutes building machines is so rewarding.

@ariblester I’m not an economist, but I don’t think it necessarily has to. One of the bigger issues is that we cannot avoid globalization, since we sprung out of a culture of imperialism. But my brain spins off into too many ideas to make much of a coherent discussion on something so big.

Ariblester
Ariblester
4 years ago

@dikdik

Thanks for your reply. I guess that where I’m coming from is that the way that the world has been for the whole of human history, humans have been moving into areas which, without opportunity for resupply, we’d probably have died trying to settle a long time ago. Whether that’s a direct consequence of imperialism or not, that’s kinda the world that we’ve inherited.

So, if we want to continue living where we live, instead of migrating en masse and concentrating into disparate self-sufficient communes (and that’s a big “if”, I concede), we would probably still need good lines of supply and communication globally. How would such a system work absent a centralized entity for coordination? I’m too unimaginative to come up with a proposal as yet, which is why I’m tossing it out there.

dikdik
dikdik
4 years ago

@ariblester

What do you mean

the world has been for the whole of human history, humans have been moving into areas which, without opportunity for resupply, we’d probably have died trying to settle a long time ago.

That’s a lot of things to parse. Humans are pretty stunning creatures. Humans exist/ed in the most harsh deserts in all continent. They certainly had different strategies for it than what we are currently using.

Now, I’m going off fairly fuzzy memories from my college years (10+ years ago! yikers), but people lived in the North American deserts. With in the NA deserts there were multiple different cultures with multiple different survival strategies. There was also trade from Peru (I think…) to Alaska.

This does mean that the survival of these people was not solely desert based. But I do think it shows people can exist in those conditions.

The trouble is if you mean exist like we currently exist. That is entirely unsustainable. But there are infinite other models we can use. Can you break down your idea more?

Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

@Ariblester

What are the possible proposals for a system which actually manages to implement “from each according to ability, to each according to need”?

Well, first you have to acknowledge that that’s a simplified slogan that hides a myriad of complexity, and frankly isn’t terribly well adapted to modern circumstances. The short answer is universal income, sharp limits on personal wealth accumulation, and automate, automate, automate. Also economic democracy.

Will it inevitably lead to a command economy if attempted globally?

No, a command economy is entirely incapable of achieving such a condition. They’re doing well for anyone to have what they need, and don’t even get me started on the waste of talent.

The unequal distribution of resources and the need to transport said resources for distribution (with all the attendant problems of how to build, maintain and power said transport system) would probably require a high level of coordination.

Any kind of human endeavor does.

Would such a coordinating body inevitably become a State?

Depends heavily on what you mean by state. And coordinating body, for that matter.

And how would the expenditures of said coordination and transport be accounted for? Would money still be a thing in such a system, even if in the sense of “internal unit for accounting”?

Yes.

we would probably still need good lines of supply and communication globally. How would such a system work absent a centralized entity for coordination?

Well, right now we have lines of global supply and communication without any centralized coordinating entity.

IBH Ardipithecus
IBH Ardipithecus
4 years ago

Nanobots!

Nanobots are the answer. Pour a source of atoms into the hopper, and have the nanobots turn the atoms into whatever you need.

Fabe
Fabe
4 years ago

I have a Minecraft realms free 30 day trial set up. anyone interested in joining? Don’t know if I’ll subscribe after the 30 days but it might be fun for a while.

dikdik
dikdik
4 years ago

@Fabe

Maybe me? What were you thinking to do with the realm?

Ariblester
Ariblester
4 years ago

@dikdik

I think we’re pretty much in agreement, actually. My point was basically “if humans didn’t trade with other people from other areas, they’d lack the resources to live in extreme environments,”. And I personally don’t think that it was imperialism per se as much as trade that led to humans being able to settle in such extreme places. Of course, there are unquestionably myriad unsustainable practices in how we live nowadays, some of which are indeed the legacy of imperialism (which I’ll touch on below).

@Dalilama

That was a very comprehensive answer. Thanks a lot for that, it’s really helped me to collect my thoughts.

Re: “lines of supply and communication globally”

Upon re-reading my comment, I think that I may have left my argument incomplete, or skipped a few steps along the way. Let me try again.

I’m not saying that we don’t have a functioning global system of communications and transport. However, that’s not the end of the story.

Yes, we currently have such a functioning system in place – for certain values of “function”. The Global South is ignored at the moment, and the lines of transport in those regions, mostly built during the imperialist era, generally run from poor countries to the rich in one direction only. In addition, fast and reliable lines of communication run mostly between rich countries.

If we were aiming for equitable distribution of resources, then these lines need to serve all regions equally well.

(But then who would build them up, and how would the path of said lines be decided? The current method involves national and state governments acting in their self-interest, which may not always align with the interests of the masses, especially in kleptocracies or dictatorships.)

But such an infrastructure, even if it existed, is a necessary but not sufficient condition for equitable distribution. Even in a state of perfect access to communications and transport, a “free-market” system would still distribute resources not by need, but by ability to pay, resulting in inequity.

I therefore (naively, perhaps) assume that in order to reach such a state of perfect resource- and information-sharing, everything needs to run through a central clearing-house, which then disburses the resources as needed, and also works to decide how to lay down the supply lines in a manner as to ensure equitable distribution. Which is what I mean by “coordinating entity”.

However, the system then begins to resemble a top-down command economy, which is generally considered inefficient, and which has a danger of mutating into a bureaucracy, and thence to an authoritarian State.

Faced with such a situation, my imagination runs out. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

(It also at this point that I begin to suspect that I am probably way out of my depth.)

Yuki
Yuki
4 years ago

Longtime lurker, first post, apologies if this doesn’t work properly…just thought this was the best unintentional ad placement ever. Ominous warning indeed!

[img]http://i.imgur.com/fsyRUYy.png[/img]

Ariblester
Ariblester
4 years ago

@Dalilama

I also just realized that I completely forgot to respond to your proposal for a decentralized but equitable society. I am intrigued and wish to subscribe to your newsletter,.

If you’ll permit me to impose, I’d like to continue along this thread. Do you see any potential issues concerning people forming corporations as an end-run against limits on personal wealth accumulation? Will inheritance be permitted in such a society? How would such a society impact individual craftsmen (who may require capital investment in excess of the universal income)? And does “economic democracy” refer to “voting with your dollars”, or is it something else entirely?

IgnoreSandra
IgnoreSandra
4 years ago

That picture reminds me of playing Age of Mythology. Which I did, like, six hours ago. I spent an entire mission with three women riding sharks as my entire navy, and they took down a few dozen warships by the end of the level. The Nereids might be the subjects and only beneficiaries of such a 10-year orgy.

Stop hurting the lady’s shark, guys. She’s just trying to murder you and then spend time with her friends.

EJ (Marxist Jazz Weasel)

@Fabe:
Yes.

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
4 years ago

@Fabe

I might give it a try.

Fabe
Fabe
4 years ago

@dikdik, Ej & Petal

OK, I just need your minecraft names and I’ll add you to the list. I don’t really have a plan other then maybe building a base of operations and exploring the realm since it’s just a free trail so just do what you want to do.

Weird (Encouraged by the RESISTANCE!!!!) Eddie
Weird (Encouraged by the RESISTANCE!!!!) Eddie
4 years ago

This thread needs a troll…

You are all just (whatever it is that I don’t like… )!!!

Whu… oh, no trolls? Sorry, I’ll see myself out….

🙂 😉 :p

Dodom
Dodom
4 years ago

Good news! The sex bots are here! Quick, tell the MRAs!
A sex bot

PeeVee the (Timber-Rattling Booger Slut, But Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Timber-Rattling Booger Slut, But Noice) Sarcastic
4 years ago

Dodom, that is hilarious!!

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago
Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
4 years ago

@Fabe

My MC name is the same as here but without the blank space.

Jesalin
Jesalin
4 years ago

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/transgender-rights-bill-female-born-spaces-1.4110634

Two feminists are warning the Senate’s legal and constitutional affairs committee that passing the federal transgender rights bill could threaten the existence of exclusively “female-born” women’s spaces, like rape crisis centres, a controversial argument that has ignited a debate over who should call themselves a woman.

“We are worried that this well-intentioned legislation will be used to undermine the rights of women and the crucial work of women’s groups,” Hilla Kerner, a collective member of the Vancouver Rape Relief and Women’s Shelter, told the Red Chamber committee studying Bill C-16.

Opinions?

Personally I think it sounds like a whole bunch of TERF bullshit.

LindsayIrene, Rioting Werebonobo
LindsayIrene, Rioting Werebonobo
4 years ago

@ Jesalyn

A rape crisis center that’s for women only sounds like some bullshit to me, even before the TERFiness. And it positively reeks of TERF.

PeeVee the (Timber-Rattling Booger Slut, But Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Timber-Rattling Booger Slut, But Noice) Sarcastic
4 years ago

Jesalin,

This pisses me off to no end.

Yeag, it does reek of TERF bullshit, and I hope they don’t fucking prevail. Assholes.

IBH Ardipithecus
IBH Ardipithecus
4 years ago

Spyro (our blind cat of “bump fuckit, bump fuckit” fame) has been in the wars. The local baduns have sensed his weakness, and have invaded his territory. He was recently chased in through his catflap, and bitten twice on his rear as he went in. The bites have infected so he now has two large bald holes in his skin. And we have large vet’s bills.

He is an unhappy mogs.

I’m going to invest in a super soaker.

PaganReader - Misandrist Spinster

@Bina
Cole and Marmalade! I love those two. So cute

Oh poor Spyro 🙁 Hope we recovers quickly

Buffalo Headroom (it doesn't have to make sense)

Who likes big butts, they cannot lie?

Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

@Ariblester

If you’ll permit me to impose, I’d like to continue along this thread. Do you see any potential issues concerning people forming corporations as an end-run against limits on personal wealth accumulation?

Not really; see below.

Will inheritance be permitted in such a society?

Not really; it’s honestly a severely problematic concept in a lot of ways, and frankly causes more trouble than it serves. I mean, Grandma’s antique dagger or your dear old dad’s monogrammed cufflinks, sure, but not massive wealth transfers.

How would such a society impact individual craftsmen (who may require capital investment in excess of the universal income)?

The establishment of a ‘right to capital’, whereby a fund is set up to provide artists, artisans, and collectives of same with the means to set themselves up. Existing cooperatives pay regularly into the fund, and thus does the whole thing roll back over.

And does “economic democracy” refer to “voting with your dollars”, or is it something else entirely?

Something else altogether. It means having a say in your economic life as well as in your political one*. To wit, it means worker cooperatives/syndicalism. (This is where we address the wealth through corporations thing above: If everyone in the company gets an equal vote, nobody’s going to get voted the lion’s share of the value they produce. )

*And political organization is a whole other deal, which I’m not going to address in this comment

And I personally don’t think that it was imperialism per se as much as trade that led to humans being able to settle in such extreme places.

Yup

(But then who would build them up, and how would the path of said lines be decided?

The actual building would be done by people with machines, same as now. The financing gets a tad more tricky; more on that in a bit. As to deciding where they go, the proper answer is everyplace that wants them. Specific details of routing etc. need to be worked out with the people living on the route.

The current method involves national and state governments acting in their self-interest, which may not always never align with the interests of the masses, especially in kleptocracies or dictatorships.)

This is true.

But such an infrastructure, even if it existed, is a necessary but not sufficient condition for equitable distribution. Even in a state of perfect access to communications and transport, a “free-market” system would still distribute resources not by need, but by ability to pay, resulting in inequity.

Yeah, you can’t do anything like this without accounting for the massive disparities of capital* that already exist in the present world. So, basically, the question of who pays for it (above) is ‘the people who can afford it’. I.e., a collectivist pseudostate based in the Global North would recognize a massive debt owing, and pony up the cost of building up that infrastructure from the resources stolen by previous states and non-state actors occupying that geopolitical space. Ah, you say, but what if they don’t? Then the whole fucking thing falls apart and it may as well be the USSR all over again. So there you go, really.

*Not just financial, but also physical, human, and natural capital.

I therefore (naively, perhaps) assume that in order to reach such a state of perfect resource- and information-sharing, everything needs to run through a central clearing-house, which then disburses the resources as needed, and also works to decide how to lay down the supply lines in a manner as to ensure equitable distribution. Which is what I mean by “coordinating entity”.

Arbitrating entity perhaps, but not coordinating. Some type of U.N. equivalent would be needed to provide a mediator for disputes between groups (probably loosely culturally affiliated semi-nations; while I personally am a committed internationalist, I don’t actually believe we’ll ever get everyone on board the same cultural train, as it were, nor do I think we should, and there will inevitably be frictions between groups)

However, the system then begins to resemble a top-down command economy, which is generally considered inefficient, and which has a danger of mutating into a bureaucracy, and thence to an authoritarian State.

Not in danger of, but guaranteed to. Command economies are shit.

@Jesalin
Yeah, that’s TERF bullshit right there.

Feline
Feline
4 years ago

Thank you for this, Dodom.
Here’s the Basic Sub-Orbital Delight. Keep calm and retrofit your own kraken

“Retrofit your own kraken” sounds like a perfect dadaesque retort to daze and confuse a belligerent adversary.

Moggie
Moggie
4 years ago

Ooglyboggles:

Wait if they’re having an orgy with the sharks how do they deal with the sharkskin? It’d be like having sex with a roll of sandpaper.

Nuh-uh. Sharks are totally smooth.

https://twitter.com/bransonreese/status/848746940179382272

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
4 years ago

@Jesalin
There is 0 difference, zero, between the arguments of those critics and those of the proponents of bathroom bills

@Dali

Well, first you have to acknowledge that that’s a simplified slogan that hides a myriad of complexity, and frankly isn’t terribly well adapted to modern circumstances

Indeed

I personally am a committed internationalist

Definition, pls? Thanks 🙂

@Oogly

Wait if they’re having an orgy with the sharks how do they deal with the sharkskin? It’d be like having sex with a roll of sandpaper

Quit cockblocking the sharks. Snarks need luvvin, too. They’re good sharks, Brint!

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I can see the possible need for women only programs but there’s no reason trans women shouldn’t be included in those and yeah, “female born” can’t be anything but TERFiness.

LindsayIrene, Rioting Werebonobo
LindsayIrene, Rioting Werebonobo
4 years ago

Who likes big butts, they cannot lie?

Big butts, little butts. Girl butts, boy butts, non-binary butts. I am pro-butt.

Buffalo Headroom (it doesn't need to make sense)
Buffalo Headroom (it doesn't need to make sense)
4 years ago

@LindsayIrene, Rioting Werebonobo

Butts are love, butts are life

Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

@Axe

Definition, pls? Thanks

Workers* of the world unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ731aR_SBY

*which is to say members of non-capital owning classes generally, regardless of individual employment status and/or disability

More comprehensively, I support developing and maintaining international networks of solidarity and mutual aid between all manner of labour unions, communes, workers’/poor people’s parties, &c. Also open borders.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ dalillama

Did you ever get a chance to check out the Join Lewis Partnership? Be interested in your thoughts.

Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

@Alan
Thought I commented on that one last time… Huh. Anyway, the short of it is that the board is controlled by appointed executives, so it’s not economic democracy in any meaningful sense.

Fabe
Fabe
4 years ago

@Imaginary Petal

@Fabe

My MC name is the same as here but without the blank space.

Ok invite sent to ImaginaryPetal

Banananana dakry: Fat, Short-Haired, and Deranged
Banananana dakry: Fat, Short-Haired, and Deranged
4 years ago

@LindsayIrene

I like sitting on my butt. Does that make me pro-butt?

numerobis
numerobis
4 years ago

The trees are having an orgy in my sinuses. It blows.

dlouwe
dlouwe
4 years ago

@Jesalin

Ugh, not more of that crap. There was fairly recently a postering campaign put up in Vancouver by a website (I don’t want to link it, but it’s called “Woman Means Something” *barf*) that was trying to stir up fear about C-16.

One thing that really ticks me off is that now there’s an article that refers to the dissenters with language like “Murphy, and some other feminists…” and “Some feminists…”, and skips over the fact that the people they talked to who support the bill are probably also feminists. Where’s the “Vast Majority of Feminists Support C-16 and Think Those Other Feminists Are Regressive Shits” article?

JS
JS
4 years ago

Have you EVER been a member of, or in any way associated (either directly or indirectly) with The Communist Party?– still on the US citizenship application (N-400).

Buffalo Headroom (it doesn't have to make sense)

@Banananana dakry: Fat, Short-Haired, and Deranged

Yes. Yes you are my fat, short-haired, and deranged friend.

Banananana dakry: Fat, Short-Haired, and Deranged
Banananana dakry: Fat, Short-Haired, and Deranged
4 years ago

@Buffalo Headroom

Why then, yes, I am very very pro-butt. If only because all the alternative body parts for sitting on kind of suck.

Fabe
Fabe
4 years ago

@dikdik & Ej

If you’re still interested in joining my minecraft realm I still need your in game names.