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Alt-Right “traditionalists” don’t understand the world they want us to return to, part 973

Cover detail from Sept-Oct 1960 issue of “Going Steady,” a comic book aimed at teen girls

No one should be turning to the neo-Nazi online tabloid The Daily Stormer for dating advice, but on the off chance that you are, I have to warn you that they don’t know what they’re talking about.

I mean, they don’t know what they’re talking about when it comes to pretty much everything, but in this case their ignorance involves what actually went on in the supposed 1950s cultural paradise they want to return us to, forcibly if necessary.

In a post with the sarcastic title “Dating Advice: The Key to Good Relationships is Cheating on Your Boyfriends,” regular Daily Stormer contributor “Zeiger” takes aim at a “fat Paki skag” dating expert who has the temerity to argue that women searching for “the One” should date a bunch of guys casually before committing to one of them.

I know, shocking.

Well, it is to Zeiger.

Not so long ago, women didn’t feel like they needed dating advice. After all, they just had to stand around somewhere until a man came to them and took care of everything for them.

All they had to worry about was serving him beer and cooking his food right so he didn’t dump their ungrateful asses.

Zeiger illustrates this point with a magazine illustration from the 1950s depicting happy teenage girls learning to bake a cake, so it’s pretty clear what romanticized past Zeiger is harking back to.

Alas, we have fallen so far from this imaginary paradise!

But in the era of NUMALE faggots and Jew feminism, women are confused. They think it’s somehow their job to understand relationships. This is already a completely insane concept.

But it gets worse.

These days, they’re getting their relationship advice from insane Paki sluts.

The “Paki slut” in question is a “relationship coach” named Sami Wunder who was recently featured in the British tabloid The Express. Despite Zeiger’s headline, Wunder does not actually suggest that women cheat on their boyfriends. Rather, she recommends that women looking for a husband date multiple men, non-exclusively, holding off on serious committment until one of them pops the question.

Whatever you think of this advice, it’s hardly “cheating” to date more than one person when you’re not in an exclusive relationship, presuming everyone is on the up and up on this.

Zeiger is outraged by the very idea.

I guarantee that no real man would “put a ring” on the finger of some hoe who cheated on him with a bunch of other guys. A “man” so pussy-whipped would more appropriately be called a “humanoid slug.” …

What this shows is the urgent need women have for stable, healthy relationships. And that is something that can only be provided by WHITE SHARIA – not fat Paki whore dating advice.

Zeiger’s anger here seems to stem from the same mix of entitlement and insecurity that drives the alt-right obsession with “cucks” and “cucking.” These are men who, on some level, feel entitled to any attractive woman who wanders into their field of vision, and feel betrayed — even “cucked” — when any of these women date or marry or just have sex with some guy other than them.

But we’re not just entitlement we’re dealing with here. More than a few alt-rightist dudes — and manosphere dudes generally — fetishize nubile young virgins, not just because they’re creepy dudes who are way too into women and girls far too young for them, but because virgins have no way to compare their sexual prowess with other men. Many manosphere dudes are quite open about this anxiety, complaining that women who’ve been with more than one guy will endlessly compare them with their earlier partners.

These are the same guys who go around boasting about what “alphas” they are.

But there’s another giant irony in Zeiger’s piece: dating in the 1950s, at least at the start of the decade, looked a lot more like Wunder’s world than Zeigers in some crucial respects.

In the 40s and early 50s, teenagers were encouraged to “play the field,” casually dating an assortment of not-quite-steady partners rather than committing to a single person.

It wasn’t until later in the decade that teens began to shift en masse to the more familiar (to us, that is) strategy of “going steady.” And far from welcoming this new monogamy, many parents were horrified. Magazines at the time were filled with alarming articles on the supposedly grave dangers of going steady.

Here’s one from 1960 warning teens that going steady might be “too dangerous” for them.

Here’s one from 1957 examining the potential “immorality” of going steady.

And here’s a graphic from a pamphlet or magazine article from the era wondering when it was “too early” for teens to go steady.

And parents actually had some legitimate reasons to worry. On the one hand, they worried that teens who “went steady” without dating around first would settle down with the first person of the opposite sex who was nice to them, not realizing they could have done better.

On the other hand, they worried that teens who “went steady” would also end up going further sexually — which could lead, as sex often does, to pregnancy and too-early marriage. Indeed, the age of first marriage dropped precipitously in the 1950s as more teens married, helping to contribute to the spiraling divorce rates of the 1960s and 1970s as these too-hasty marriages fell apart.

It was kind of a screwed-up decade; happily, the sexual revolution of the 1960s convinced a hefty chunk of Americans young and old that 1) sex isn’t the end of the world and 2) it isn’t always such a great idea for teens to settle down forever with the very first person they have sex with.

The weird thing is that the 1950s parents, for all their faults, were more interested in girls and young women having choices than are the alt-rightists of today.

Parents in the 1950s worried that their daughters would end up getting too seriously involved with the wrong guys because they had no good basis for comparison.

Alt-rightists and manosphere dudes today are apparently afraid that no women will settle for them if they realize there are other men out there who aren’t, you know, reactionary racists who think women shouldn’t really be allowed to make their own decisions about anything.

I’m thinking they’re probably right to worry about this. And I’m glad.

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ScarlettAthenta
ScarlettAthenta
3 years ago

In exactly what era did women ‘just stand around’ until a man came by, pray tell?

Also, wasn’t there dating advice before feminism? Where does the notion that feminism or ‘the Jews’ or whatever brought in an era of dating advice?

Also, I think “cheating on your spouse” predates feminism — Hello, Helen of Troy, Princesse de Clève and Guinevere!

Also, don’t read Aucassin and Nicolette which is clearly an attempt to bring feminism to the Middle Ages!

Hippielady
Hippielady
3 years ago

I find that these types of men are terrified of women who think for themselves. Not that they’d ever admit that.

dreemr
dreemr
3 years ago

It’s not just that these men have never been anywhere, or have never interacted with women outside their own families, or apparently worked with any women, or seen any women on television, or maybe anywhere other than, I guess, 1950s teen magazines, maybe?

It’s not just all that, it’s also that they don’t seem to have ever even read anything about women, hell, about history, I mean forget just women-specific, they literally don’t seem to have a clue about humans or any living organisms, at all.

I just – where do these men come from? How do you live your entire life without ever stepping outside your front door, or ever seeing a film about a life other than your own experience, or reading a book or even a magazine article that describes something beyond your own vision?

I just don’t know. It’s like they literally came down on a space ship after only picking up satellite transmissions of “Leave it to Beaver” and “Father Knows Best” or something?

I try to, at the very least, understand how someone got to where they are, even if only in a very rudimentary way, but this is something I can’t come close to comprehending, it is so far afield from what living breathing humans are like.

Paradoxical Intention - Leader of the Deathclaw Damsels

“fat Paki skag”

Wow, fuck that guy. Skags (and fat people in general) are cute as hell.

http://www.writeups.org/wp-content/uploads/Skags-Borderlands-video-game-a.jpg

Just wook at that widdle death monster! Isn’t it adorwabul?

Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
3 years ago

SMH at this particular bit of alt-right stupidity.
On a better note, I finally got a job! I’m now an aide at one of the libraries in my area. Provided all the background check- and fingerprint-type stuff goes smoothly (which it should), I start in about 2 weeks.

MrsObedMarsh
MrsObedMarsh
3 years ago

My grandma-in-law went to college during the Second World War. She once told me and my sister-in-law about the dances she used to go to, and how women were expected to dance with multiple partners. If you danced with only one guy all night and refused everybody else who asked, GIL said, you’d be considered “stuck-up.”

Nequam
Nequam
3 years ago

@Nikki: Congratulations!

Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
3 years ago

@Nequam
Thanks! I’m still in the nervous/excited/relieved strain of mixed feelings.

JS
JS
3 years ago

Surely someone has a Borderlands Mod that gives you a pet skag…

I’d ask where do these idiots get these ideas, but then I remember rule 0 of the PUA: “You must think you should be the center of the sexual universe”

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Dating as we think of it today didn’t exist until the 20th century, but there are plenty of extremely famous stories written by very white people before the sexual revolution that covered romantic pitfalls and anxieties. Like Midsummer Night’s Dream or any other Shakespeare comedy and some of his tragedies, Emma or any other Jane Austen, Cyrano De Bergerac. There’s a reason that these works have been adapted and put into contemporary settings. Worrying about love is pretty universal. It’s not just that the alt-right doesn’t understand the world. They don’t seem to even live in it. You don’t have to be very well educated or well read to be familiar with the plots of Shakespeare romances. Everyone knows them!

My grandparents married in the 1940’s before second wave feminism came along and ruined everything. My maternal grandparents were set up on a date by a friend. My paternal grandparents were friends first and eventually decided to get married even though my grandmother (conservative Catholic, not a feminist) originally hadn’t even wanted to get married. That’s right. The friend zone existed before nowadays!
Paternal grandmother was a welder during WWII and worked outside the home until she was maybe about 80 and just couldn’t physically do it anymore. Contrary to popular right wing belief, that was common for working class women. My maternal grandparents had the more suburban Leave it to Beaver kind of household but just because my grandmother was a SAHM, doesn’t mean she was a submissive helpmeet type. She had a sharp wit, was good at math and managed the family’s investments. It’s because of her that there was money to leave my mom and aunt. Men were certainly more privileged in the 40’s and 50’s than they are and women more marginalized. That sure as shit doesn’t mean every man was gifted a submissive beautiful virgin upon reaching adulthood.

I think that hate and wanting to maintain privilege, while big motives for them, aren’t the only reason they idealize the past that never was. I think they’re pants shittingly scared of complexity. They want a simple formula to get through life with everything they want. But life isn’t simple and people aren’t monoliths. They never were, but right wingers desperately need to believe that if only social justice movements didn’t exist, they would live carefree and prosperous lives without putting in any effort at all.

PeeVee the (Timber-Rattling Booger Slut, But Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Timber-Rattling Booger Slut, But Noice) Sarcastic
3 years ago

Congratulations, Nikki!

I work in a library, and it’s oodles of fun! I really enjoy it.

Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
3 years ago

@PeeVee
Thanks! The main reason I want to work in a library is that I’ve loved books from a very young age and I want to make my living by doing something I love.

AsAboveSoBelow, Male Gaze Harvester
AsAboveSoBelow, Male Gaze Harvester
3 years ago

Great work showing how attitudes towards dating have changed, David.

Congratulations, Nikki!

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

Congratulations Nikki! I know I overuse this pic; but it’s a sentiment I hold dear.

http://chipkidd.com/journal/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/neil-gaiman-library-books-meme.jpg

PeeVee the (Timber-Rattling Booger Slut, But Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Timber-Rattling Booger Slut, But Noice) Sarcastic
3 years ago

@ Nikki, same!

Oh, I’m very happy for you!

Franscesca Torpedo
Franscesca Torpedo
3 years ago

@All

I would like to be a librarian, but I heard the pay is bad.

I have been damaged enough by my experiences being poor that I have decided to seek out a degree in something that will potentially pay off even though I don’t have an interest in the subject.

Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
3 years ago

Thanks, everyone!
@Alan: I can’t say I’ve ever heard that Gaiman quote (although I did read and enjoy some of his essays), but I love it!

Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
3 years ago

@Franscesca
It’s true that librarians can be rather underpaid, but a lot of how well a librarian gets paid depends on things like where they live (and the corresponding cost of living), what type of library they work in, and how much education they have (getting your Master’s in Library Science tends to bump your salary up). My main goal is to eventually move up to a full-time position where I’m either behind the main desk or at the reference desk. It’s never going to make me rich, but in my metro area (Dayton, Ohio, a relatively small Midwestern city about an hour north of Cincinnati-I live in one of the towns just outside it), you can make a moderately comfortable living doing that.
Sorry for the length, and I don’t want this comment to come across as snobbish or pedantic-there are a lot of variables involved in the librarian pay equation.

Franscesca Torpedo
Franscesca Torpedo
3 years ago

@Nikki

I’ll consider it, then, because I was ginning myself up to do something I don’t want to do at all just to make money in order to attain my true ambitions.

getting your Master’s in Library Science tends to bump your salary up

I had intended to obtain a degree regardless, so this doesn’t impact my plans at all.

One thing I actually also seriously wanted to do was become a teacher or professor, but I’ve heard pay is shit for both those roles as well. Perhaps not? I invite your evaluation of my assessment about teaching.

ETA:

Also, thank you for informing me, and no, it was not long or snobbish or pedantic; it was actually quite useful and interesting and helpful to me, personally.

Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
3 years ago

@Franscesca
I don’t have enough information to analyze teaching pay as well as I did librarian pay, largely because I was never interested in becoming a teacher or professor and never collected the info for that career track. However, a lot of the same variables, like location and education, still apply; and many colleges and universities pay their professors well-I’d recommend that you try to find a career counselor in your area, either through your school or through any local employment agencies (most US states have websites that provide career information, and most non-US countries should as well), and ask them for the specifics.
I’m glad I’ve been able to help!

dreemr
dreemr
3 years ago

@Nikki Congratulations on the new job, I hope it goes well for you.

Ooglyboggles
3 years ago

@Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
Congratulations, hope it all goes well for you.

Bina
3 years ago

What this shows is the urgent need women have for stable, healthy relationships. And that is something that can only be provided by WHITE SHARIA

How about NO?

I’d much rather have a stable, healthy relationship with a bunch of cats. Especially if they’re as adorably goofy as Maru here:

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
3 years ago

Always liked that term, ‘going steady’. Still use it

@Nikki
comment image
Much grats!

@Fran
comment image

Friendly Neighborhood Dragon Arthur
Friendly Neighborhood Dragon Arthur
3 years ago

In the end, it all boils down to as said, insecurity.

Because how dare things be complex and work with spectrum or two, as opposed to being an easy connect the dots or black and white scenario?

I mean, look at how they act about video games for a rather unrelated example. To alt-righters, there are no “games with flaws” or “games that while made by a crappy publisher, are still good”, it’s always “the absolute best” or “pure udder garbage”. They apply this either-or metric to everything; from relationships to governments.

I know it’s probably a point said a million times before around here, but as someone who’s constantly a victim of either-or mentalities, I feel like I need to highlight that point.

Helix_luco
Helix_luco
3 years ago

If we’re talking about job searching, I’m interested in hearing tips about interviews and stuff. I’m graduating this week, and starting​ to look for a job in software development. I’ve been procrastinating and I’m panicking a little.

numerobis
numerobis
3 years ago

Franscesca : I started writing a lot and I was assuming you’re young, thinking of heading to university, history of poverty, and your goal is education in order to be not poor. But I then realized there’s a high risk of making an ass out of me.

Teaching in public school pays a decent middle-class salary. The work conditions — in particular, the uncertainty that you even have a job — are absolute shit at the start. But if you can get through a few years of experience, it gets much better and the pay goes up. You need an undergrad + a teaching certificate; a masters helps. At a private school you may not need the certificate; pay is typically not as good, but still not poverty unless you have a family to raise on your own. Source: several friends and family.

Professing is an undergrad (that you go into debt for), then a Ph.D. (which generally involves getting paid, but working stupidly hard for just about exactly what you can live off of), then a period when you’re an adjunct being poor while you wait for a prof in your narrow sub-sub-subfield to die, then you and several others apply. If you get in, congrats, you’ve got a good salary, often a bit more than a school teacher. If not, go back to waiting for someone to die. This is not a good way to escape poverty. In some fields, like computer science, it’s not nearly as bad, because there’s stiff competition from the private sector (and you can fairly easily switch to a high-paying job) and generally lots of funding; but in the humanities it can be brutal. Source: most of my friends and family.

If you’re trying to avoid poverty, maybe select a variety of professional programs at a nearby public university or community college: e.g. nursing, accounting, engineering, electricianing, plumbing, firefighting, parole officering (I’m just randomly sticking ‘ing’ on here)? These all generally lead to decent pay and work conditions. The schools also tend to be better at actually providing for-real active help getting a job in those.

Computer science remains a great way to get a job and make a good salary, despite not being a certificate program. Graphic design and web design tend to be fairly reliable as well, if you’re entrepreneurial (your freelance work is how you’ll get noticed).

Business studies in undergrad are generally not a good way to make money. There’s not much theory that can be taught at the undergrad level unless you’ve already started a company or two; better to learn to think and to read and write and speak and listen — none of those are taught in business courses. Getting an MBA after a couple years in the work world makes lots of sense though. Source: my dad, who taught business for 30+ years and raised me on his rants of how his students were wasting their time on his classes when they could be reading Kant instead.

Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

@Nikki

Congratulations!

@Fran

Tenured professors get decent pay. An increasing proportion of faculty are adiuncts, who get paid shit and treated that way too.

Tov01
Tov01
3 years ago

@Franscesca Torpedo

My mom’s a high school teacher, and according to her, the starting pay is indeed crap. If you stick with if for a while, the pay becomes decent, but then when you approach retirement age you might have to worry about the administrators pulling crap to “encourage” you to retire. (My mom’s been having to put up with their crap for the last several years now)

dreemr
dreemr
3 years ago

Don’t overlook trades, especially if you want a decent living and some job security as well as time for personal pursuits. My degree is in FIne Arts, because that’s what I was interested in studying, but I make my living as a bookkeeper.

Nursing, plumbing, HVAC, electrician, etc. There is room for creativity within some of them as well. Many take a couple of years at trade school and sometimes apprenticeship.

I just don’t think everyone has To go to college and take on crushing debt. But even with trade schools, be careful and avoid for-profit places.

brian
brian
3 years ago

I would rather be trapped in a room with one hundred Pandoran skags than a single MRA/Alt-Right/Neo-Nazi dude.

numerobis
numerobis
3 years ago

Helix_luco: keep in mind I am not the universal hiring manager, I’m just one software developer who’s hired a couple times. But if I were hiring you, here’s what I’d want:

(a) Tell me you know something about what my company does, what my personal background is, and what you think I might be hiring someone for. As in, read my website, and ask me a question about it. Read my business card. Look me up on linkedin. Even just read the name of the company on the banner next to my career fair booth. Please! I crave external validation.

(b) Tell me about a group project you worked on. What particular thing did you do? What effect did your contribution have on the group’s success? What did you have to quickly learn to get the project through?

OK, now tell me about two more.

These projects don’t need to be school-related. In fact, bonus points if they aren’t. They don’t even all need to be software; show me you can work in a team, help analyze requirements, and deliver something that works (but also show me you can do that with software).

(c) Generally, if you make a claim that you’ve got some great quality X, I’m going to ignore your claim unless you can demonstrate that by naming a project Y where you did X and it had effect Z. Example: “I am skilled at analyzing algorithms” versus “In my first job, I analyzed the code, realized the core algorithm involved appending to a singly-linked list rather than prepending, fixed that, and sped up some important benchmarks by a factor of 1000x.”

(d) I’m not usually looking for a junior candidate to know any particular technology. It’s always nice to have a match, but I expect it’ll be 6 months before you know how our codebase works and how we collaborate and where the coffee machine is. Plenty of time for you to learn whatever language variant we’re working in. If you spend your interview or career fair time trying to tell me how great you are at Java for Android, I’ll spend my time looking for another candidate who might be ready to learn on the job.

Otrame
Otrame
3 years ago

@ Hippielady

You said:

I find that these types of men are terrified of women who think for themselves. Not that they’d ever admit that.

I think you are right, though I think the first 11 words are all you needed to say. They are endlessly frustrated, to the point of being homicidal on occasion, by real women. Their problem is that the women in their minds, the women they keep looking for, don’t exist and the women who do exist scare the shit out of them.

I would also note that the image they have of the 1950s seems to be based entirely on situation comedies from that era. I’m old enough to remember my mother saying some very unmotherly sorts of things about June Cleaver and Harriet Nelson. I think it was the running the vacuum while wearing a pearl necklace and high heels that pushed her over the edge. I mean it’s not like she was ultra-modern, a woman before her times. I think it was well into the 70s before she was willing to go to the store in a pair of slacks and she insists on wearing lipstick when in public to this day (she’s in her mid 80s).

Franscesca Torpedo
Franscesca Torpedo
3 years ago

@Fran’s Career Discussion, re: everyone

Franscesca : I started writing a lot and I was assuming you’re young, thinking of heading to university, history of poverty, and your goal is education in order to be not poor.

Yes.

In all actuality, I would like to make art. I learned quickly enough that this is not a means of avoiding poverty.

Expecting to support yourself via your art is absolutely the worst decision possible that one can make, and I’m sure everyone will agree with me on this front.

I gave it a shot and rapidly surrendered in the face of economic reality. Having to sleep at other people’s houses or in your car will sober you up immediately.

[puts hands up] I know, I know. Patreon, etc.

However, I have been active in the various circles of internet artists who do commissions and whatnot and their lives are unspeakably grim if they are entirely supported by their commissions, unless, of course, they’re already employed elsewhere.

I want the simple luxuries of being able to say, “This is my house and this is my car. Leave the electricity on, I’ve got my bill on auto-pay. Y’all can eat as much food as we got in the kitchen.”

And then I go and prepare a meal from its basic ingredients from a fully-stocked refrigerator.

I swore I would attain this at all costs, even if it meant abandoning what I really wanted to do, and so.

I had even decided I would do something unspeakably grim (for me) like nursing or dental hygiene. I’ve heard the salaries of dental hygienists are quite high, but pushing my fingers in the mouths of strange people and having to be in close quarters with people whose are suffering from dental ailments sounds absolutely fucking terrible. It’s right up there on the List of Things I Really Don’t Ever Want To Do, Ever. I already have difficulty sleeping; that would just worsen it.

I’m also a germophobe and hate getting my hands dirty. I’ll do it, but it causes me immense stress. I did not consider plumbing for this reason, obviously.

Nursing? I have heard horror stories about that job. So. Many. Horror. Stories.

I’m not going to bore you all with epic tales I’ve heard from RNs about the depression and angst they suffer from, and the awfulness they witness every day. I’m already struggling under a great deal of anxieties about different things; being a nurse would be hellish for me.

Becoming a parole officer or an organ of law enforcement in any form is anathema to my principles, especially after recent events. I’m not trying to be holier-than-thou here – I actually considered becoming a police officer for a while when I first hit 17, until I saw enough black bodies being killed by Law Enforcement to permanently repel me from the idea. That was back in 2007.

So I was figuring I might become an accountant, which sounds like a soul-crushing, draining job devoid of any creativity and is entirely at odds with my artistic inclinations. I get to write numbers and stare at screens, yaaaaaaaaay. 🙁

I had also been considering engineering, which is actually slightly within my interests. I’ll be frank; I’m not fond of mathematics, which, I understand, is somewhat of a hurdle to overcome if you wish to become an engineer.

I do want to design a plane or spacecraft, however, and like space a lot, so I was going to become an aerospace engineer if anything.

I understand an excellent grasp of mathematics is necessary to become proficient at computer science, but I had considered that as well. I’m willing to test my ability where this is concerned, but I am not optimistic about my chances.

As an aside, I think I might have an undiagnosed learning disability that makes it difficult for me to properly use mathematics. I’ll have to get that checked.

Ultimately, I had decided I might probably become a doctor or a lawyer, not because I give a shit about either of these things. Both occupations have zero appeal to me, but you get to make money and people always want you to do jobs for them.

Furthermore, one of my recently acquired ambitions has been to become a politician and take the fight directly to the Republicans; I have enlisted in the ranks of my local Democratic party and am currently being evaluated for my fitness as a candidate in the local elections.

(Sensible) People like politicians who are lawyers. Citation: Barack Obama.

I figured becoming a constitutional lawyer would make an excellent addition to my portfolio and lend an air of credibility.

Franscesca Torpedo
Franscesca Torpedo
3 years ago

I apologize for the double post, but one of the reasons why I decided against actually publishing any of my fiction, in spite of my successful ventures with writing novels for NaNoWriMo, were the myriad dark tales of death and grim life that follows for authors.

Unless you are lucky, you are consigned to a dull, awful life of poverty and stress. Being a fiction writer for a career is unspeakably grim.

Mind you, I’ll still self-publish, but no power on Earth or elsewhere could convince me to do it for a living. I would sooner have hot lead poured down my throat.

Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
3 years ago

Thanks, everyone! I’ve really appreciated all your support during this job-searching saga, and I’m glad to finally be able to report a happy ending to this chapter.

dreemr
dreemr
3 years ago

@Fran

So I was figuring I might become an accountant, which sounds like a soul-crushing, draining job devoid of any creativity and is entirely at odds with my artistic inclinations. I get to write numbers and stare at screens, yaaaaaaaaay. 🙁

Uh, well. As mentioned, I have a BFA, in printmaking. I make art every day. I also have a minor in mathematics and make a living “writ[ing] numbers and star[ing] at screens, yaaaaay”. And yet I don’t feel soul-crushed nor drained. In fact, I own my own home; I have raised a child on my own; I own my own vehicles outright, I take a nice vacation every year. I can afford everything we need and most of the things we want. I can afford any art materials I would like, and a printmaking studio in my basement. I work with fairly decent people that don’t irritate me too much, and my work is interesting enough on a day to day basis to keep me engaged.

So, I dunno. Maybe don’t assume so much? And maybe don’t put so much of a value judgement on things that just don’t happen to interest you?

Franscesca Torpedo
Franscesca Torpedo
3 years ago

@Dreemr

Ah, but you see, mathematics are probably easier for you than for me.

As mentioned, I’m terrible at numbers. It’s a complete horrorshow.

I am certain that if by some chance we were hanging out together for a day, you would probably catch me forgetting basic things, like how to add or multiply fractions, and be like, “Fran, what the _fuck_ is wrong with you?” I gar-on-tee you would do it.

I have trouble reciting the multiplication tables off the top of my head, for crying out loud. You would stumble away from me reeling and nauseous at how utterly bad I am at that stuff.

Conversely, I dissolve into a panic when confronted with numbers. Obviously I don’t curl up into a tiny ball and start crying, but the amount of stress involved would wear away at my will to live, I think.

Ooglyboggles
3 years ago

@Franscesca Torpedo

I want the simple luxuries of being able to say, “This is my house and this is my car. Leave the electricity on, I’ve got my bill on auto-pay. Y’all can eat as much food as we got in the kitchen.”

And then I go and prepare a meal from its basic ingredients from a fully-stocked refrigerator.

I swore I would attain this at all costs, even if it meant abandoning what I really wanted to do, and so.

Freaky, I got the same goals myself.

So I was figuring I might become an accountant, which sounds like a soul-crushing, draining job devoid of any creativity and is entirely at odds with my artistic inclinations. I get to write numbers and stare at screens, yaaaaaaaaay. 🙁

Honestly the draw for me is the desire of something that is easy to understand and is consistent.

By the way, remember earlier when I said I was gonna use the anime girl for an idea? Well here it is. Thank you Dalil, Fabe and Ray of Rays for finding the girl.

http://i.imgur.com/fqNzS3j.png

Now you are the leader of the commulists.

Jayne
Jayne
3 years ago

@Francesca
I’m also still pretty young, but from talking to adults with much more experience in life than me, has taught me that trying to force yourself to do something you hate, (not just “don’t like” but truly despise) will only have bad consequences. This goes double for high-stress jobs like doctors and lawyers. In the short term, it looks pretty good, but people tend to crash quickly and spectacularly, which leaves them in debt, emotionally shattered, and sometimes physically ill.
(also, have you considered technical writing, writing for advertising or things like that? I know that you said ‘not writing’ but these jobs are much more stable than freelance writing, because you’re actually part of the staff somewhere)

dreemr
dreemr
3 years ago

@Fran – that could very easily be the case! I honestly don’t know. I happen to like numbers, but of course not everyone does.

What I am objecting to isn’t your dislike of or possible inability to deal with numbers – that’s totally understandable. My (very mild) objection is to dismissing and discounting a profession because you assume it isn’t creative.

Now, it may not seem creative, and it might indeed be boring for a lot of people. But there’s no reason to pooh-pooh it as though it’s beneath anyone, particularly beneath a creative person.

When someone is creative, it doesn’t even really matter what they do for a living, because they will always find a way to be creative, even if all they are doing is writing down numbers and staring at screens all day (or whatever else sounds boring and uncreative to you).

Another reason something like bookkeeping is a good profession: if I were a writer, I would have tons of time on-the-clock to write, since I’m really only busy at certain times of the month. As it is, I use that time to draw, to write other things (I don’t write fiction but I do write personal essays) and to read. Just FYI 😉 there are lots of hidden perks in jobs that aren’t necessarily right up-front-and-center when you’re learning about them.

LindsayIrene, Rioting Werebonobo
LindsayIrene, Rioting Werebonobo
3 years ago

I’m terrible with numbers and flunked several math classes, but did really well in a one-term accounting elective that my high school offered. You use an adding machine, so doing the math isn’t a problem. You put all the numbers into the right places and make sure everything comes out even. I rather liked it.

Franscesca Torpedo
Franscesca Torpedo
3 years ago

@Oogly

I will treasure this forever.

Also, it may be more relevant than you know.

Story time:

At one of my meetings with my local democratic party, I more or less made an improvised speech (you are allowed to take the mic for a certain time and address the meeting) that boiled down to “We need Universal Basic Income now,” and received thunderous, long-lasting applause.

Other people were having trouble engaging the audience; I captivated them and held them in thrall. I speak exactly as eloquently as I write and have been told my voice is fantastic.

It was a fantastic scene and truly the high point of my life; an indicator that a career in politics would suit me perfectly.

So I may actually be a Communist Leader (in training).

Jayne
Jayne
3 years ago

@Franscesca
*scrolled back up, remembered the original mention of librarian-ing as a career*
I don’t know about everywhere, but here (Canada) if you have a degree in library science, you can get paid pretty ok as a librarian. That’s what my aunt does for a living. It also seems to be a job where love of books and love of knowledge really pays off. She did well partly because she got good at finding specific books for people based on a vague description from when they read it years ago.
One piece of advice though, based on my aunt’s experience: if you possibly can, don’t work at a library right near where all the Hell’s Angels hang out.

LindsayIrene, Rioting Werebonobo
LindsayIrene, Rioting Werebonobo
3 years ago

if you possibly can, don’t work at a library right near where all the Hell’s Angels hang out.

Which reminds me, I just learned to day that there is such a thing as an ‘outlaw biker’ genre of romance novels.

dreemr
dreemr
3 years ago

@LindsayIrene – accounting and bookkeeping are really more like solving puzzles than anything like pure mathematics. Sure, there’s numbers involved, but you’re rarely doing anything more complicated than adding and subtracting in different ways and categories.

I happen to enjoy puzzles. 😀

I’m not trying to sell anyone on accounting or anything. I just say, you’re young, don’t overlook something necessarily.

I mean if your goals are mostly to be able to work, make a decent-enough living to own a few things and have some security, maybe not strike it rich but not have to sweat it out over which bills to pay and when, you could do worse, y’know?

I didn’t study for it, I just happened to do it while I was in art school, so I could, y’know, pay for school, rent, etc. After college, I worked in management in a printing field, which was creative but commercial; I went back to bookkeeping because I left the big metropolitan area to raise my only kid in a small rural town and that is a skill that is much more easily transferable to a small town than “International Digital Imaging Manager”.

Like I said, there are worse ways to make a living, and I managed to study what I wanted to study.

Not that anyone asked, but as a middle-aged woman, for young people including my own young son, here’s my bit of advice: It doesn’t really matter TOO much what you do for a living, as long as you can look at yourself in the mirror and you aren’t suffering too much in some area or other in your life (home/family/leisure/etc).

Bottom line: If you’re reasonably intelligent, reasonably responsible, and reasonably reliable, YOU WILL BE OKAY. You can always make money. You might not make it doing something you love and THAT’S OKAY, you don’t have to. As long as you’re not working 75-80 hours a week doing something you hate, you will still have plenty of time to do lots of things you love to do.

Find something you DON’T HATE. You don’t have to love it, but it’s important not to HATE it.

The people you work with matter WAY more than the work itself.

Recognize if you have a good boss or a shitty boss. If you have a shitty boss, do whatever it takes to get out of there. Even if you work with the best people, nothing makes up for a shitty boss.

Do not give your soul to your job. Give what you can within reason, but don’t be a zealot, nobody owes their life to their employer. If you find something better, move on, no one is going to look out for you but YOU.

Most important: don’t be afraid. I know it’s hard not to be, but don’t be. You’re a smart person, you can figure this out. Be honest with yourself about your strengths and especially about your weaknesses – if you can’t get out of bed before 10 am then do NOT get a job as a milk delivery person, you will only fail. If you cannot be around drunks, then do NOT be a bartender.

My personal weakness is, I am not good at managing my time on my own, so I cannot work for myself, I have to have another location to go to and people to be responsible to or else I’ll just lay around my house all day!

Franscesca Torpedo
Franscesca Torpedo
3 years ago

@Dreemr

I understand. I think the fact that you like numbers and I don’t is what divides us so sharply on this matter.

Again, though, I did intend to swallow my dislike and just bite down on the aforementioned bullet, since I want my house and car. I’m willing to endure great suffering if it pays off.

I can’t stress to you enough how bad I am at the whole mathematics thing. You really would be surprised, perhaps even shocked.

I feel like I should be in a freakshow, wearing a tight leather outfit and a collar, while someone barks at the carnival attendants to watch me forget how to do fractions and shocked, appalled people wobble away trying not to throw up at my glaring ineptitude.

ETA:

I didn’t see your latest post before I posted this one, but:

Not that anyone asked,

I did.

Believe me, I need help getting my shit together. I very obviously don’t have it together and am in no small amount of distress.

GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
3 years ago

It’s my understanding that Trump’s accountants have to be very creative people …

Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

@Dreemr

Bottom line: If you’re reasonably intelligent, reasonably responsible, and reasonably reliable, YOU WILL BE OKAY.

This is not even remotely true. Please stop saying it.

xyz
xyz
3 years ago

@Francesca – here is a TED talk by Barbara Oakley, who also believed she sucked at math and ended up with a PhD in engineering (you’re situation is probably different, but this is just for inspiration) 🙂

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