The idea that women regularly use their sexual wiles to gain control over men has long been central to the Men’s Rights Movement.
In the seminal MRA tome The Myth of Male Power, Warren Farrell famously declared that secretaries have “miniskirt power, cleavage power and flirtation power” over their male bosses; the latest edition of his book features a shapely female posterior on the cover, sans clothing, to illustrate what he sees as the immense power women can exert over men with, well, their butts.
In the Men Going Their Own Way subreddit, one Reddit MGTOW takes Farrell’s argument one sickening step further, seeming to suggest that women use this sexy power of theirs to “intice” [sic] men to, well, rape them.
As High-Fruit-Trinity sees it, women have
used men’s nature against them.
They called men pigs & date-rapists. But they were the CAUSE
Of male piggishness and … rape?
They have entire industries just for women to be more beautiful, inticing and sexy. They’re taught everything about manipulating men. Men aren’t taught anything.
Women got away with this because they are the perceived victims, and you shouldn’t blame the victim. So who do you blame?
I dunno, dude, when a man acts like a pig to women, I blame him. When a man rapes a woman, I blame him. Who do you blame, Mr. High-Fruit-Trinity? Do you actually see rape survivors as the real “CAUSE” of rape, and the rapists themselves as the victims?
Apparently so. In a followup comment in the thread, High-Fruit-Trinity approvingly quotes a comment from a Washington Post reader about a famous political sex scandal.
“let’s acknowledge that women also play a role in soliciting sexual attention. Think about John Edwards and Rielle Hunter and how all the blame is focused on Edwards. She could easily cry “sexual harrassment!” as a causative factor; why isn’t a charge of “sexual enticement” just as accurately applied to the situation? “
It’s a bizarre question to ask about Edwards and Hunter, given that no one was accusing Edwards of sexually harassing her; the two had a consensual affair. But MRAs and MGTOWs seem to have some trouble understanding the difference between sexual harassment and mutual sexual attraction, as well as between consensual sex and rape.
In any case, the logic here is pretty clear: in High-Fruit-Trinity’s mind, whenever a man harasses or rapes or does anything sexual to a woman that she doesn’t consent to, it’s her fault, not his, because she must have “enticed” him into doing it.
Basically, this is blame-the-victim on steroids. And yet another reason so many people wish that the so-called Men Going Their Own Way would indeed go wherever it is they are allegedly going, the further away from the rest of us the better.
WTF. In addition to being an anti-Semite, this artist is unprofessional. The art should help to tell the story, not undermine it.
An artist snuck an anti-Semitic message into Marvel’s newest X-Men comic book
It goes against everything the X-Men and their creators stand for.
https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/4/10/15242446/xmen-anti-semitic-ardian-syaf
@PaganReader
Yes, that’s the one! Many thanks.
Although The Blue Bird got crappy reviews, I enjoyed it anyway. The fantasy was lovely, it had an all-star cast, including Jane Fonda — and it was the first (only?) USSR/USA film collaboration.
Kat, Syaf has admitted to sneaking this in, and Marvel has let him go.
@PeeVee
Good to know.
@Valentine, rest of thread
Re: Zoe Salda
It would be nice if the other black mammotheers would weigh in on the issue, but it seems like they prefer leaving me to make a dreadful ass of myself and air my personal self-loathing instead. 😀 Can’t say as I blame them. This is deeply personal stuff!
I’mma go a step further, actually and partially recant my statement.
I did some thinking and it’s unfair of me to bust on her for being ashamed of her blackness when I display similar distress regarding my own blackness.
My real issue is that her avoidance/lack of knowledge of the subject triggers my own discomfort about my black skin and large lips and nose (which aren’t even that large to begin with, by Valentine’s reckoning).
It makes me feel (along with the people who insist I should declare myself mixed-race) as though being black is a dark secret along the lines of eating babies or bathing in virgin blood (white female virgin blood, to be precise) and something to be ashamed of.
I went through my own stages of concealing myself in ways similar to Ms. Saldana and the mixed-race people who trumpet (lol) their mixed-race heritage.
I mentioned roleplaying in another thread, one of my hobbies. When I was a young teenage Fran, I used to roleplay a lot as white or asian characters (usually female).
In this very same thread I openly declared that I would prefer it if my features were similar to J-Law, who is a white woman.
So I’ve kind of invalidated myself from criticizing Zoe on this front.
But on the other hand, I’ve been trying to loudly assert myself as being black and beautiful, so I’m making some progress towards rebelling against the societal norms that dictate that one must be small, petite, thin, and have a tiny nose and mouth to be Gorgeous and Ravishing.
In all actuality, if such a thing were possible, I would like to look like this in real life:
Then I would have the tiniest nose and mouth ever and be super cute and awesome and everyone would remark about how tiny my nose and mouth are.
I realize this might sound like squicky disgusting fetishization of Asian women to our Asian mammotheers and if it does I apologize in advance. I just really wish my facial features were smaller.
I’m sure someone might say,
[sigh]
Guess there really is no way out from being harassed by people about one’s bodily attributes, is there?
@ kat
Yeah thats the one! ? its really good. Well l liked it. Though as for your other questions, im sorry im not sure but looks like someone else knew…. USSR films were a lot and also not something i really watch. Old films i like is usually martial arts like once upon a time in china etc. But you might like Бриллантовая Рука. From 1960s i think. And also the tv series for Тихий Дон if you like history film.
If you want some new ones i suggest:
Самые Лучшие День (!), came out 2/3 yrs ago, i cant remember. Usually i hate musicals but this one is very good and the female characters i think you will like. And its fucking funny!
Любовь в большом городе, there are three of these, comedies. A bit shit and ñot too smart but funny. Quite old now.
And also 8 новых свиданий – sort of romanic comedy. At first i hated it but its quite funny and i always seem to wach it again and again so must be something there!
@ kat
I forgot Батальонъ! If you watch any of my suggestion, watch this first. It is feminist as fuck and then also you can really use what you learn against these dudes who say women cant fight in battles women arent heroic or cant be soldiers.
@Fran
I love reading what you say about this. It is always thoughtful and helps me think too. I think many people feel uncomfortable about who they are and how they look. But its one thing if you have blue eyes blond hair and white skin like me, maybe i think i look bad but at least the mainstream tells me i am the ‘normal’ mode. I dont have the system of racisim to confirm that all the things i feel bad about are bad and i should feel bad and want to look different.
@Fran
Not unless the world changes fundamentally in the near future.
@Valentine
Thanks for the recommendations!
@Francesca
Madison Avenue works overtime to make us feel insecure about everything, really.
As far as I’m concerned, loving myself as I am is a revolutionary practice.
@Dalillama
Partially related, but that’s one of the reasons why I’m glad the Mammotheers taught me about ableism.
I like to think that by purging myself of ableist nonsense I can at least try to make the world more like that.
@Valentine
Regarding this whole issue at large, I’d like to remind everyone of Joseph Merrick, the unfortunate called the Elephant man. I always felt kinship with him because of his desire to just be a normal person, and the feeling of being ungainly and ugly, something I suffered with tremendously during my teenage years and could not quite recover from to this day.
He died trying to be like a normal person. He could not lie down because it would kill him due to his deformities.
He did so anyway. Nevertheless, he persisted.
Think about that for a while.
I’m afraid that will probably happen to me as well. Not the lying down and dying so much, but I will probably die in my quest to simply be like other people around me. Black people and transpeople and queer people are being killed wholesale these days. I live my life in full knowledge that I’m on borrowed time.
I consider the fact that I reached my twenties to be a fucking miracle.
Joseph Merrick, 1888
How I feel about the hostility I encounter in my daily life is similar. I have therefore taken the liberty of echoing Mr. Merrick in my own small way:
Fran, 2017
But, as my allies (of all races, genders, and sexualities) have pointed out, you should be able to exist and be desired and loved without having to change yourself.
@Fran
I saved that poem in my notes.other than that i suppose i cant say anything that you didn’t already say better. But your last sentance should be painted up on every building for all people to see and understand and get into their bigoted minds.
@Fran
Nah, you just talk too much. Hard for my black ass to get a word in edgewise ?
So, 1st of all, I. Do. Not. Police. People’s. Identities. If Zoe Saldana would prefer not to call herself black (instead going with her ethnic nationalities) that’s well and fine. Fuck it, I’m all about it. I’d prefer to call myself Bajan/Trini/West Indian American. And I do. But, echoing summat you said, I’ll stop calling myself black when assholes quit yelling n****r at me from speeding pickup trucks or when my life actually matters to police departments or or etc etc. I also wanna say that Zoe is dealing with being a woman and Latina. Whether by intention or otherwise, her eschewing the black label is not something imma get on her for
Moving on, I’m a cis male, so take this as you will. I’ve got my own issues with self esteem and appearance. Not gonna get all up in that, but, suffice to say, it’s valid to not like how you look. It’s also super valid not to like how you look in the face of racist beauty standards. Black gals have it rough, ya know? I would caution against using ‘Asian gals are super pretty’ as your response to that, not least cos (some) Asian gals being super pretty is not always something in their favor…
Finally:
-Queen Bey, 2016
Sista, you gorgeous! It’s one thing to hear/read that and another to live it, ofc. But ain’t nobody gonna live your beautiful blackness for you. Girl, fuck Jennifer Lawrence. Now, shut up and slay!!!
?
@Axecalibur
Thank you!
I’d just like to add that this:
…seems to be a universal experience for black people in the USA.
I have had this happen to me, I’ve heard my family members experience it…
…the weirdest time this happened to me was when I was leaving a Borders Bookstore a few years ago with my mother and two white dudes sped past me in a Corvette, yelled the n-word, and then peeled out of the parking lot.
I was just like… “at a bookstore, of all places? Why?”
@Fran
Oh, absolutely. Errybody catches that shit at least once
Cos there were black folk there. Simple as that. White guys think that nonsense is just the funnest thing
Personal question: this’ll happen more often depending on where one lives. Where was that incident at the bookstore? You still living there? The general area will more than suffice. Frex, my incidents (same exact thing 2 different times) were in the near Atlanta suburbs, and I do still live here. Unfortunately. My mom and uncles got the same in the whiter bits of Brooklyn a few decades back…
I wasn’t sure whether to weigh in on this because I have all the issues. I’m mixed and identify as blacktalian. I was raised by the italian half of my family, well-meaning, but very white people who like to say things like they’re “color-blind.” Yeah, I’ll be unpacking racial shit the rest of my life.
Other than being fat I’ve never had an issue with the size of my nose or mouth. (Big lips? Bigger target for bright colored lipstick, yeah?)
I’ve never been called a n***, as far as I can tell only other black people peg me as black, white people tend to play “oh what are you? let me guess” and my former Moroccan in-laws hugged my ex and told him they were proud of him for dating an arab. After 9/11 there have been some. . .uncomfortable moments with white people.
@CleverForAGirl
I’m really glad you posted because I was feeling tremendously isolated for a second, there, and it was distressing to me.
my experience with other black people has been similar. I’m too dark and have too large sized nose/lips and too long a jaw for white people to be confused about my race, though.
@Axecalibur
Well, you see – and this answers your next question -this bookshop was in a very rich suburban enclave called Lake Grove, NY, and it’s right next to a state university, and everyone there is intelligent and some form of elite professional in the form of a doctor or lawyer or scientist or teacher or engineer or so on.
So I had imagined they would be more intelligent than that, because people like to say only dumb people are racist.
I have found – most obviously in the fandom/geek circles I run with that are infested with racist people who are also intelligent, so yes.
We don’t live there, but it’s a major business hub and brings people from out of town all the time.
I live in a suburb about twenty miles away that is beginning its transition into a Bad Neighborhood; people get shot and stabbed fairly frequently around here, heavy militarized police presence, gangs, robbery, and so on.
I am on the frontline of the destruction Late State Capitalism has caused to U.S. citizens.
@Franscesca Torpedo, I’m just glad I’m not the only black person here.
Once I leave the relative safety of the sf bay area the racism gets more “in your face.” The neighborhood I’m in, they might call in a ‘suspicious person’ if you wander about while black, but will be polite to your face. (not representative of the entire east bay, I’m living in one of the last neighborhoods to integrate) Once I’m outside of the Bay Area, the being ignored, stared at, followed by security and the more overt racism starts up. (Around here we call it Berkeley vs. Alabama racism)
@Clever
I’m in Long Island, New York.
I’m glad I’ve allayed your fears. There is, actually, a contingent of Black Mammotheers and we hang out here a lot. They were being quiet – except for Axe – so I had a brief attack of self-conscious anxiety.
@Fran + Clever
Me, y’all, @lkeke35, @Patricia Kayden, and @Big Head (but he ain’t around too often). I think that’s all of our particular typa brown. There’s other Ps of C, but overall it’s whiter than Fox News in here ?
@Fran
Yeah, city slickers like me don’t go east of Jamaica, Queens if we can help it…
@Clever
There is no Alabama, only Alabamas. 50 of em. Some worse than others, but all distinctively hostile. White folk complain about being scared at night in black neighborhoods. Muffuga, I don’t wanna be alone in your ‘private community’ in broad daylight!
@CleverforaGirl
Thanks for the lovely video.
@Axecalibur
Sit down, comrade.
I tell story. [/spoken in heavy Russian accent]
You’re right to not come out here. The first thing that struck me when I went to the city for the first time was how many interracial couples there were.
Out here, that shit’s still rare. I thought nothing of it until I experienced city culture.
Now this place feels like an awful, repressive hellhole of white supremacy – which is what it is, because the KKK once used Long Island as a meeting place.
The city – in spite of all the dark shit people tell about it being a crime-ridden horror house – just feels so much more vibrant and alive.
Out here it’s like you’re just passing time waiting to die.
I hate it here. Seriously, don’t come out here. I don’t recommend it at all. It’s perfectly awful and I hate it a lot.
Ahhhh….thanks, “ladies”, it never ceases to make me laugh coming to this site. Gave me a good guffaw while eating breakfast.
Keep “fighting the patriarchy”…..you know, the very one that built a free society so that all of you angry hambeasts have the FREEDOM to even HAVE discussions like this, oh, and rallies, riots, marches, etc ad nauseam.
….Keep “fighting rape culture”, or as its also known, “completely dismantling gender roles, societal norms, committing terrible and frequently violent man shaming and assaults against men as a whole,
all for the actions of a tiny minority”
….Or maybe, just wake up? Feminism has been co-opted into a violent, hateful, useful idiot culture. The 1% are actively bankrolling your activities to help bring instability and hopelessness to Western societies. This is all part of a plan (along with the “refugee crisis”) to have us all fight each other instead of the system, and sadly, its working all too well.
@John
Never sure what the scare quotes are supposed to mean. Then again, does it really matter? Every possible meaning is extra gross anyway…
They built a free society for them, the rest of had to claw our way into it
I’m not seeing a problem here…
If man for you is indistinguishable from rape perpetrator/apologist, maybe you’re the problem
You fool! Don’t awaken the sheeple!
But the ‘1%’ live in, and make there money mostly from, western societies. Makes little sense to cause uncertainty, considering how stocks and investments react (not well, turns out)
Maaan…
See what I mean with these confusing ass scare quotes?
Then quit running into forums you weren’t invited to while berating and condescending to everyone there. Unless it’s OK when you go after us instead of “the system”. In which case carry on. Or just to Galt already. Leave us be
Also, couldn’t resist:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAYL5H46QnQ
Maaan…