As bad as most of the misogynistic ideas I write about on this blog tend to be, they at least have a certain perverse logic to them; if you accept their deeply flawed premises, at least long enough to try to parse the arguments, the conclusions make a sort of rough sense.
But when I wander into the online worlds of the so-called “involuntary celibates” I can quickly lose my moorings. Most incels are hugely depressed, and as I know from my own experience dealing with depression of varying degrees of severity over several decades, deep depression not only distorts your thinking; it also can make you weirdly self-obsessed, assuming that everything that happens in the world has something to do with you — both with your own imagined failings and with the alleged injustices the world supposedly imposes on you.
When you combine all this with the standard bad ideas of the misogynistic manosphere, incel “logic” can quickly become very strange indeed.
I say all this as a sort of introduction to this little “true story”I found on the Incels subreddit, a story that starts out with an awkward not-quite-interaction on a largely deserted bus and ends with a plot twist I have to say I never saw coming.
So let’s take a look at the post titled “Feminism’s fault I’m incel,” (archived here) by a fellow calling himself Brazierlord.
I was sitting next to this girl on the bus the other day and as the bus starting emptying out, I stood up to change seats like a good male is supposed to. I would be labeled as a danger to females if they saw me continue to sit next to that innocent female when I could easily move – obviously I was preparing to stalk her and rape her as soon as we got off the bus.
Obviously what he means by that last bit is that the others on the bus might consider him a bit creepy if he continued to sit next to the girl in question when there were now plenty of open seats. But his choice of words here, while meant sarcastically, make him seem even creepier than he intends.
So I stand up and I see her look at me through the corner of my eye. I move to the seat behind and at angle of -45 degrees from the horizontal to her. The entire time she is tracking me. Once I am seated she looks away and lays her head on the window.
Maybe she’s “tracking you” because you’re “tracking her” as you move to a new seat.
We get to our stop and she glances back at me. I am standing at this point and she hurries off the bus and nearly breaks into a run in the opposite direction.
Either she’s in a hurry, is nervous about being out alone, or our narrator really is giving off a creepy vibe.
So far, this seems to be a relatively straightforward story of a guy who may be giving off more of a creepy vibe than he realizes.
Then we get this:
If it weren’t for feminism I wouldn’t have changed seats and she wouldn’t hate me for breaking her heart. She probably would have followed me to my apartment and asked me if she could have sex with me and I wouldn’t be a virgin anymore
WHAT.
What the fuck are you talking about?
You didn’t break her heart. At best, she barely noticed you; at worst, you creeped her out. That’s it. Everything else is going on in your head, and nowhere else. Women do not follow strange men to their apartments to ask them for sex because they happened to sit next to each other on the bus. This is the sort of fantasy you come up with when you can’t imagine actually interacting with a woman as a real human being.
Get off of r/Incels and into therapy. Please. For your sake, and for the sake of every woman you sit next to on the bus.
@Franscesca Torpedo
That’s totally fine. I consider individual upbringing to be a fair thing that I don’t judge in a situation like this.
I have not been the type to make excuses for the shitty behavior associated with the brony community or the bad steps the show took despite the good ones. I speak well of it when relevant and encourage people to talk about the stuff they hate and what they experienced.
I have some genuine social horror stories like the time I pointed someone to this article about the practice involving facial disfigurement in the way they they were choosing to photo shop someone. I also responded with “fuck ariane” as well as more words about why it was a shitty thing to like (in a board that was the social descendant of 4chan’s /b/ coard). I did the best I could but in the end my memories are of wasted opportunities. Denizens of /b/ and /co/ tried to be a big friendly pony community. It was probably inevitable.
Feel free to share your horror stories.
Sorry I don’t know. I can only think of natives in:
Marvel comics
The Blair witch games
Assasin creed video game
Smoke signals- one of the best movies of all time period
Elisa in Gargoyles (she’s half native and half African American)
Native art on deviantart and Pinterest
And more. But maybe there are steampunk native comics somewhere if you look hard enough.
When it comes to fandoms, is anyone here a fan of RWBY? That fandom seems to be one of the better ones. Other than that, I’m in the Doctor Who fandom, and other than the consistent claims (for no real reason) that the next doctor must be a white british man, it seems alright as well.
@Alan Robertshaw
“It seems weird all round fancying a cartoon character…”
I’ve got to confess to a long-standing crush on Marcelline the Vampire Queen… who, curiously, it occurs to me, was a Queen without any subjects, yet Princess Bubblegum, who actually runs a country and has subjects, isn’t a Queen.
She was my new Wilma Flintstone, but Wilma… she’d never leave Fred, and we know it…
@DanHolme
+10 internets for the “Red Dwarf” reference
@Fabe
Cheers for the internets, but I can’t take credit. Space Corps directive 68250 left me no choice.
“No officer shall grow bananas on the forward deck?” I hardly think this is the time to be worrying about horticulture, sir.
@ brony
That’s an interesting perspective; thanks for sharing. Your tale did resonate a bit for me. Reminds me of a friend who had a pretty horrible childhood for reasons, so she used to pretty much live in the stable and hang with the horses as effectivly a surrogate family to avoid what was going on at home.
Funny you should say this. When I was reading your first paragraph what immediately sprung to mind was those studies where they raise condors with glove puppets. I can completely understand where you’re coming from in terms of fictional characters filling an emotional and social void. I know a few people who lost themselves in books for the same reasons.
So I can see how people would find fictional, including animated, characters comforting. I probably should have expressed myself clearer. I was responding to @Fran’s post, so it’s not so much the cartoon aspect as the fact they’re ponies. I can see how, like @danholme, people may be attracted to animated humans. It’s the inter-species sex aspect that I was thinking of.
But I don’t want to get into any sort of shaming, and I’m pretty prone to anthropomorphising myself. If people find cartoon animals arousing then it’s entirely a matter for them, and from what Fran’s saying it’s all premised on informed consent so presumably not harming anyone.
@EJ (Marxist Jazz Weasel)
No need for the sir – I’m a Technician – the guy who changes the bog rolls outranks me.
@ Mobile Swedish Sexual Bread
Dr Who fandom is relatively laid back until the question of canon appears, in my experience. I’m still recovering from an argument in 2013 when I mentioned how delighted I was that ‘The Night of The Doctor’ made Lucy Miller, amongst others, an official, canonical companion. Certain friends of mine did not agree, strongly, for a variety of different reasons – most commonly, ‘the BBC novels are the Canon, not the Big Finish audios’ – which is clearly nonsense, the destruction of Gallifrey in the books is completely un-canon since ‘The Day of the Doctor’.
Which is a shame, as ‘The Ancestor Cell’ is SO much better than ‘The Day of the Doctor’. 🙂
Fabe:
*raises hand*
Well, not entirely there on the “hetero” part, but… close enough, I guess?
@Alan:
I’d say that the anthropomorphism certainly plays a large part in the attraction. To use FiM specifically as an example, despite being equines, they were given enough human-like traits (primarily when it comes to intelligence and facial features) that they become more relatable, and possibly outright attractive, than a real-life horse.
While I’m not really part of the furry fandom, I imagine the same applies there. Just because someone finds, say, a hypothetical sapient, anthropomorphic dog attractive, doesn’t mean they ever intend to fuck a real-life dog.
Thanks, folks. I woke up way earlier than I expected to, so I was still a bit high and that plus the kind comments really helped with the sense of dread.
@Troubelle
Y’know, the old me would probably laugh and say something like you’re pretty old to not have ever been anywhere like that – but, well, 17 happens to be the age I was when I experienced what drunk hypothermia feels like (that’s when I learned that sleeping bags are not in fact “useless extra weight”, go figure), and it was there.
At any rate I hope you can experience something like that someday. It’s actually a lot better than I made it seem – and to be fair, this particular festival is the best I’ve ever known. It’s fucking safe, for one. People look out for each other and actually feel safe enough to bring their 6 yr old kids in an environment brimming with booze and drugs, and it’s a huge part of why I love it. For every potential abuser or would-be rapist present (can’t avoid them, even there), there’s 20 badasses with some kinda sixth sense watching them and keeping ready to throw ’em out with their teeth broken at the first sign of them getting even just a bit clingy. Peeps will share their food if you don’t have any, their beer and pot if they like you, and even some basic meds if you get sick.
The kindness is overwhelming and has gotten me through and out of some tough times. That’s why I always play my field nurse and firekeeper roles there, to try and give back some.
Also
Heh. I so rarely get a chance to crawl out of my hole, I’ll take anything. I actually envy you living on a campus with other people around, but then I’m biased too, what with the crippling loneliness from being stuck home all year round. It probably isn’t that great in reality.
You ever take a vacation or other in France around May, make your way to a place called Châteldon – it’s definitely the best place for someone who’s never been to any other festival. Some would sneer and call that “training wheels” but fuck ’em.
@Fran
I can definitely relate to that. I’ve grown antisocial but I don’t want to accept it, maybe because I’m still so young and it’s still fresh, and I desperately want to “fix” it, because I know it’s making me unhappy. I won’t listen to you all the way but I’m packing lightly just in case I have to haul ass back home on foot in an emergency (it’s a four hour walk at most, so it’s doable if I leave some weight behind – beer in heavy glass bottles, for example, and I know I’ll find someone to relieve me of that burden). Anything goes wrong and I’ll take the advice gladly.
I can also relate to the depression – it’s a shitty thing and I hope you can get better. I also hope anyone telling you “You can’t be BLACK and TRANS and QUEER” eventually gets what you feel they deserve. Also have all of the hugs.
Aight folks, I’m ready to take off. Wish me luck ._.
@ gipsz
Yeah, I’ve been thinking a bit more about this (one of those days at work). I dont know a lot about furries. But I’m familiar with the cat ears paint your nose black thing and I find that quite cute; so I guess it’s just an extension of that really. And, whilst I’m somewhat sceptical about ‘otherkin’ (fine as a bit of fun, but I find it a bit disasteful when someone suggests not being allowed to wear a tail at work is oppression in a par with real trans people); I’m very interested in cultures that have totem or spirit animals.
I’ve only seen a few episodes of MLP; but I did enjoy them. The characters are quite endearing. And Fluttershy very much reminds me of someone in my life who’s very much got that ‘friend to all living creatures’ thing going down (if Fluttershy occasionally threw butyric acid over people wearing fur coats anyway).
I still can’t shake my general queasiness though at the more sexualised aspects of MLP fandom. I’ve wondered why that is, as I try not to be judgemental. I think fundamentally it’s because the ponies (to me at least) are cute and ‘innocent’. I know we’ve discussed their ages and the fact they have business and the like. But I still read them as very young, so I think that’s ultimately where the ‘ewww’ factor kicks in when they’re portrayed as sexualised.
ETA: @ sinkable john
Good Luck! Glad you managed to sort of resolve this. Hope you have a great time.
@Alan:
Fair enough. While I don’t think the porn in general is inherently evil or gross (as long as it’s clearly labeled so people can avoid it if they so wish), there’s room for argument that certain characters should be off limits. Anything involving foals, for example (though then there’s the question of what to do with aged-up depictions). But there are also other characters who are clearly adults, including canonical married couples. The main(/”mane”) cast are just kind of on an ambiguous borderline where they could be somewhat plausibly interpreted as either underage or adult. Personally, I just lean towards the latter interpretation for the aforementioned reasons.
@ gipsz
You know it might also be a subconscious thing. Despite my horsey friends’ constant reminders that “Ponies are not baby horses!” I do keep getting that mixed up.
@Sinkable John
Well, my parents probably wouldn’t have let me–and as far as I know, there aren’t too many things like that within walking distance of where I am most of the time.
Plus, I’ve always side-eyed alcohol. It got my dad good while I was just starting school. (He’s been clean for about a decade now, though.) So I probably wouldn’t be doing the non-hypothermia half of that equation, anyway.
It all sounds like a sweet gig, though. If I’m ever in the area…I’ll be sure to check around for festivals.
Godspeed to ‘ya, Sinkable John…
@Alan:
That could be a source of confusion, yes. I certainly learned more equine terminology through the show and its community than I ever thought I would.
(Commenting before I read all the other comments; will delete if necessary.)
Seconding…well, too many to count, but: the incel guy comes off as astoundingly creepy even when he’s the narrator; I can only imagine what the behavior looked like to his prey or others on the bus.
@Gaebolga: Why the hell did he feel the need to move?
1. As a resident of one major US city who grew up in a couple of other major cities (i.e. with lots o’ mass transit): yes, as others said, it’s often considered good manners to move–not necessarily because of gender combos, but just for breathing space.
I’m a middle-aged woman who involuntarily takes up more space than these guys think I should, so I’m lucky: even when I try to squeeze myself completely into one seat area, I often get a vacant seat on one or both sides.
2. But this situation sounds different to me. This (incel’s thought process) isn’t depression; it’s paranoia. We know from his own words that he had very sexual thoughts about the woman just from sitting next to her; my impression is that in some way he felt transparent, as though she could perceive his thoughts and react directly to them rather than to the creeper behavior.
In a way, that makes sense of the sarcastic “of course I was preparing to stalk and rape her.” He was preparing to stalk her, did stalk her in a sense, maybe would have been preparing to rape her if he got up the nerve–but more likely would stay with the bizarre and creepy projection evinced by that fantasy at the end.
To clarify in case necessary: I am commenting on a thought process. I am not saying either that the incel writer had a mental illness, or that people diagnosed with paranoia or any MI necessarily behave in the way that he did.
I still have no idea what a fetlock is. Still, here’s the best tribute to equine affection I know of.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzYzVMcgWhg
(“Just play the fucking note!”)
I still don’t know what a fetlock is.
@Alan:
All you need to know is that it’s scandalous when unshorn.
Behold, a fetlock:
I can see how this might be, er, problematic for foot-fetishist MLP fans.
@ bina
Well I never; thanks for that. If I’d had to point at a picture as to my guess, I wouldn’t even have been close.
But now at least the ‘fetlocks flowing’ lyric makes sense
@Alan:
De nada. Who knew horses had such hairy ankles, eh?
I thought they were called ‘feathers’. I really love horses with feathered feet. Like these gorgeous ladies (mum and daughter).
http://i.imgur.com/0KzDfRO.jpg
@Franscesca Torpedo,
Thanks. I may have a future in writing that stuff after all. XD. Though given certain of my…kinks?…when it comes to reading/fantasizing/writing the stuff, I may want to watch where I put it up at, let alone under what name. Don’t want someone reading it, then finding out my gender and deciding for me I must like doing what I wrote live, and…. D:
@Croquembouche,
That’s why I said a writer was needed. Reality is seldom as good fantasy when it comes such things. 😉
I may have to look up Fear of Flying sometime. I’m at the age now when I’d find that interesting.
ETA: Femiods?!? I DON’T NEED MORE NYMS ADDED TO MINE!!!! >:| (Need to streamline what I have now.)