Love to learn about women from dudes who’ve never spoken to one on Reddit dot com

I’m dumbfounded when guys talk, brag, joke, send pics and draw penises 24/7 but get all mangry when someone even mentions periods.

@Cynical Optimist
Same way as usual; paste in a url ending in .jpg, .png, or .gif

AWildebeast,

Your wish is my command!

Search the words, “Where have all the good men gone?” and dozens of anecdotes, articles, blogs, and books will appear on your screen.

Well, that’s some great scientific evidence of a man desert if I ‘ere did see!

Overwhelmingly, this question is posed by women, discussed by women, and answered by women.

This, ironically, is an essential reason for these so called man-deserts—men are simply not being asked to contribute their opinions and perspectives. And the good men themselves are increasingly less likely to offer their point of view, for many reasons.

What planet does this dude live on? Almost the entirety of media is made up of the male perspective. Whenever anything from a female perspective does make it through, mansplainers swarm around. Non binary people apparently don’t exist at all. Sure, men never offer their opinions. Never.

I’m excited to find out if “good” is even going to be defined. Because as we’ve seen from the many sad boner whiners that have come through here, they all they think they’re one of the good ones. The ones who say they’re good or nice, usually aren’t.

I do not seek to apportion blame here, on either side, but simply to address this question from the seldom-heard voice that is the object of the question itself: good men.

Here we go.

The last 100 years of suffragettes, feminists, and political correctness have challenged and continue to challenge thousands of years of patriarchy—and rightly so. Consequently, the roles of both men and women have been transformed and redefined.

Why do I sense a “but…” coming?

While we struggle to adjust to the new and still evolving status quo, the war of the sexes has taken millions of casualties. In Western culture, divorce rates for first marriages range from 42 percent in the U.K. to 53 percent in the U.S. to a staggering 71 percent in Belgium. Subsequent marriages fare even worse.

So, by wanting equality, we’ve declared war against men? Are you sure you’re one of the good ones, bub? And I don’t see why it’s a bad thing for married couples to divorce. Why should people be stuck in unhappy or even abusive marriages?

The spectre of divorce is another contributing factor in the conspicuously expanding man-deserts. Many men, having seen their fathers broken by divorce, fear the loss of their assets, their homes, and their children and are simply stacking their chips, choosing not to gamble, and checking out of the marriage casino.

Of course. The usual. Women should stay in abusive marriages because otherwise “nice” guys might get scared of “divorce rape.” Won’t somebody think of men’s feelings?

Never mind that men actually get richer after a divorce while women get poorer. I’m too lazy to look for real studies but
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/jan/25/divorce-women-research
there’s a summary about findings in the UK since that seems to be where this particular MRA-lite fellow is from.

Family courts invariably award primary custody to the mother, while the father is restricted to weekend access, supervised visits, or left to literally climb the walls of Buckingham Palace in a superhero costume to protest rights for dads. Men—will they ever grow up?

Maybe this dude should look at the facts before whining? Most custody arrangements aren’t settled by family courts. They’re agreed upon by the couple and this seems to be the most popular arrangement. I’m really tired of these people assuming that mothers tend to have primary custody = mothers tend to win custody in cases that are contested in courts. And of course, as with most of these whiny dudes, the only well being he’s writing about it that of the fathers. The well being of the children doesn’t enter his mind.

The ridicule and debasement of men in the media and mainstream culture is now pervasive. Watch a commercial, sitcom, or movie, and invariably an immature man-child or dumb dad is the butt of the joke—the hapless buffoon. Fortunately, these silly men are always saved from themselves by a smart, witty woman or a conscripted, eye-rolling child.

Yet these buffoons are always the protagonist. Always well loved. Always have a beautiful and devoted wife or girlfriend. They also always seem to have a good job despite their gross incompetence. These roles also always seem to be written by men. To me they always seem more like a male fantasy than a debasement of men. Who doesn’t want to act like a big child and face no only face absolutely no consequences for mistakes and bad behavior but actually get rewarded? Meanwhile the women get to either be the killjoy nag or are merely a decorative object to be won at the end of the movie.

The emasculation of men has become normalised.

I can’t roll my eyes enough.

Sensibly, rather than have their balls cut off (sometimes literally, and that often gets a good laugh), men are running for cover in their droves, leaving women mystified and asking, “Where have all the good men gone?”

Citation fucking needed. People are delaying marriage or never marrying more than they used to. But who says that women all want to get married and have kids right away while the men run away? Economic factors aren’t even being considered here? Looks like this doofus is getting his evidence from romcoms and Thought Catalog posts.

When I was in secondary school, perhaps 14 years old, there was a girl who patrolled the playground, egged on by her gang of girlfriends, kicking the boys between the legs. Clearly, she had been informed by someone this was the quickest, easiest, and funniest way to bring those stupid boys down to earth.

Um, what? That’s terrible but it’s not the norm I don’t think. That wasn’t happening at my schools. If we’re doing anecdotes, there are plenty of incidences of boys sexually harassing girls in school and the girls are usually the ones blamed for it because they wore a too short skirt or whatever. What’s the point of this anectdata?

The following day, I found my attacker in the playground and, contrary to my upbringing, without warning I kicked her swiftly between the legs. To everyone’s surprise she also crumpled to the ground, in too much agony to cry out. A crowd of cheering boys slapped me on the back—their new avenger.

The girls stared at me wide-eyed in shock—a boy who fought back? No one had told them that was allowed, surely it was against the rules! Equality: it’s a son of a gun.

Oh, I see. The point was to justify violence against women and call it equality. Tell me again how you’re a “good guy.” It’s funny.

I remember feeling no satisfaction or honour in defeating a weaker adversary but sometimes, especially in the case of a bully, personal satisfaction and honour is not the point—standing up to their aggression is. As I grew into a man—a good man—I learned to walk away from provocation, as most good men do.

Oh have so many cookies for not hitting the weak and inferior women. How good! So nice!

“Boys are stupid, throw rocks at them!” Remember the T-shirts launched in 2003? Followed by coffee mugs, posters, even a book.“Boys tell lies, poke them in the eyes!” Another favourite for young girls at the time. It took a fathers’ rights activist to have this merchandise removed from thousands of retail stores. Inevitably, he was ridiculed by a myopic majority.

Probably because that infamous shirt was made and sold by a man who sells controversial shirts to assholes. Not sold or bought by feminists.

Presently, in some areas of the U.K., 80 percent of primary schools have three male teachers or less, one quarter of primary schools have no male teachers at all, and some towns have 65 percent single mother families.

Man-deserts indeed.

A young boy can go to school and have no adult male role model, and then return home and have no adult male role models.

This is clearly all women’s fault. Nothing to do with men running out on responsibilities. Nothing to do with patriarchal gender roles that discourage men from working with children because that’s “women’s work.” It’s all the fault of feminism. Or women in general. Because he said so.

Young girls are achieving significantly higher academic standards than young boys. This feminisation of schools spills over into university, then the workplace, and eventually the home, completing the insipid cycle and the marginalisation of both boys and men.

It doesn’t follow that because girls get higher grades, schools teach boys that they are inferior. Show your work.

I was born in 1968. I grew up with a strong mother, four stronger sisters, and no father. I was taught, not only by my family but also by wider society, to regard women as my equal, and I always have. Yet, unknown to me, a generation of women were being indoctrinated and trained with a sharp-edged tool kit designed to emasculate men.

Citation needed.

Men have been subjugating women for centuries; now, they’re getting payback. It seems only fair. The fox has turned on the hounds and she’s packing a punch, or a kick to the balls. But the nature of men when faced with a fight is to fight back, either psychologically or physically.

Well, I guess it was only a matter of time before the evopsych came out. These types always turn to that sooner or later.

This whole paragraph is also the embodiment of that saying “when you’re used to privilege, equality feels like oppression.”

The relentless competitive struggle to determine who wears the trousers is simply a turnoff for many men. Many are just opting out of the kind of psychological warfare that is common in relationships today, unwilling to engage in the minefield of mind games, which are usually executed in three ways.

He keeps claiming to be for equality for women but his arguments seem to keep coming back around to his desire for women to just shut up and smile and make him a sandwich.

The first is the habitual belittling and denigration of men, in private or in front of friends, family or colleagues, for what is supposed to pass as humour. The second is letting a man know, casually of course, that other men are sexy, have better looks, more money, talent, or fame. The third, and perhaps the most destructive is being told over and over, “We don’t need no man. Men are obsolete.”

I’ve lost count of how often I’ve heard this since adolescence.

And I can’t tell you how often I’ve heard sexist jokes about women and objectifying comments about women. Also, does he really think that no women ever hear that they’re not good enough? We’re never compared to models and actresses and denigrated for not looking like them. Right.

If you tell a man often enough that he is surplus to requirements, eventually he will stop expending his energy to convince you and himself otherwise. Men are rapidly waking up to this phenomenon of man-bashing, so much so that a disillusioned social movement has arisen with its own freshly-minted acronym: MGTOW, Men Going Their Own Way.

Supported by websites and online forums, men are regrouping with a common cause, a sense of brotherhood, and finding their voices again.

The essential precepts of MGTOW are financial independence, rejection of chivalry, social preconceptions of what a man should be, and consumer culture which defines masculinity by a man’s house, car, clothes, watch, or cologne. It is the refusal to be shamed into conventional compliance by being told to “man up.”

Many aggrieved MGTOW refuse to marry or even date Western women, the more ardent among them consciously choosing non-committal relationships, strippers, pornography, or celibacy. Above all, goes the MGTOW mantra, maintain sovereignty of self.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! How did I know he would reveal himself to be a member of the manosphere? Not exactly a twist ending there. There’s some more wanking that I’m not even going to bother with. This part below sums it up

Equality is not always sameness. Difference is diversity, and should be a cause for celebration, not dogmatic elimination.

Translation: bitches should get back in the kitchen.

So, where have all the good men gone?

For now they have gone their own way. But they are out there, in the same desert, contentedly swimming in the oases they have found for themselves, no doubt waiting for the fourth-wave of feminism to wash over them so we can all truly embrace equality, just like the first-wave promised.

Translation: bitches can vote. What more do you want? Now, shut up, smile, make me a sandwich and blow me.

Sorry that got so long!

Search the words, “Where have all the good men gone?” and dozens of anecdotes, articles, blogs, and books will appear on your screen.

At least 50% of Google results of that phrase are manospherian rants.

The number one result, though, is one of my favorite slices of ’80s cheese, Bonnie Tyler’s ‘Holding Out for a Hero’ video.

http://i.imgur.com/cguxP0o.gif

@Alan

I started typing this earlier, but something came up that I had to tend to. So here.

1. Is there an ideological misogyny?

Not sure. I think some people are misogynistic because women drive them to be so; they don’t seem to take accountability for the things they do, and want to take all the credit for things they don’t (affirmative action policies and certain women-only services are examples). It seems to me that men and women had natural roles for a long time in society before technological innovation, the dissolution of time-honored systems of governance (aristocracy, monarchy, etc.), the rise of the welfare state, and conflict-oriented sociological perspectives drove women to act out. The “misogyny” I think, is a natural and healthy response to seeing women behave in unnatural ways; I think it’s almost instinctual, that it’s a normal, biologically-driven response that encourages men to reclaim their natural place in civilization whenever women try to upset that balance. I’m sure you could *build* an ideology on an instinct; people have built entire worldviews on their tendency to look at nature and see design or agency behind it.

2. Is Incel a cause or an effect? (i.e. Does it radicalise or is it merely a space for the already discontented).

It could conceivably be both. It absorbs people from peripheral communities sometimes, I think; in some ways I’d say they’re almost like a cross between MGTOW and PUA, but they’re not as successful as the latter. I think sometimes they absorb a lot of people with self-esteem issues, and a lot of them seem to have BDD (these guys are into Mike Mew, jaw workouts, botox, ear-pinning, rhinoplasty, are worried about negative canthal tilt, want bigger muscles, faddish diets, etc.); this could be a factor in their being Incel. You couple this with a sex-obsessed culture, the hypergamous nature of women, and a PUA-style belief that one’s masculinity is contingent upon how many women one can sleep with, and you’re in for mess.

3. How do acts of ‘random’ misogynistic violence relate to the manosphere? (Directly promoted, inspired by, or merely claimed after the event?)

Depends on who you’re talking to. The “manosphere” is pretty eclectic, and I can’t speak for all of them. I’ve gone back and forth over this one, writing and deleting things, and I’m not entirely sure I understand the question. I think some people can be inspired to behave violently by the manosphere, though you could say the same about any group, especially one as syncretic as the manosphere. There might have been some direct promotions of violence before (Paul Elam likes to hide behind “satire,” and there was that Ball guy), but I think it’s more or less just that some people take the rhetoric and use it to justify their violence.

“I’d also be interested in how you got involved with the Incel/MGTOW culture and any demographic information about yourself you’d be willing to share.”

I was raised in a rural southern home (not mentioning the state) with some very religious and conservative parents. They were very much into dispensationalist and futurist interpretations of the Book of Revelation, the end times, Armageddon, what have you, and I was indoctrinated pretty young into that (I remember going to theatrical performance involving Hell and the devil when I was about 3).

As I got older, I became aware that there were other religions and that there were some things about mine which didn’t make sense. I found a bunch of people on Youtube who made some very compelling cases for atheism and against creationism, and I ended up becoming an avid fan. Eventually, they started to get into arguments with feminists and SJWs of various stripes, and I found myself agreeing more with the anti-SJW atheists and libertarians, than with the SJWs. I was also an avid reader of Encyclopedia Dramatica, and they might have influenced me somewhat as well.

I started subbing to people like Justicar, Aurini*, GWW, etc., and eventually, I started seeing references for this thing called “MGTOW” in the related videos. I started watching them, and at first, I was kind of shocked. They seemed more caustic about women than the garden variety MRAs were, and I was initially somewhat offended by some of what they were saying about women, but I liked some of the other things they were saying (talking about self-improvement, looking after yourself, libertarianism, unfair and sexist attitudes towards men, etc.) so I stayed. Eventually, I started to adopt the rest of their views, and after the initial period of sadness** dissipated, I began to find meaning in this lifestyle.

I occasionally caution other men about the dangers of marriage and bonding with women, though I’m careful not to break out any of the Red Pill/MGTOW stuff. If I do start talking Red Pill, I only do so in small doses in order to gradually get them acclimatized to it, since it can be so shocking and offensive to hear at first.

*I initially subbed to him because I was interested in studying personality disorders, and he had some videos on those at one time; only AFTER that did I find out that he was also an atheist and had anti-feminist videos and such.

**That being, the sadness that comes with learning that much of what one has been taught about women is romanticized garbage, and that women aren’t as good as one would be led to believe.

My period’s not here yet.

Abunghole
Wooow so its bad to be sexist towards men but it’s womens fault for misogny? It’s ok to harass, threaten, talk garbage, murder, rape, etc women and girls because women/girls have opinions and want to live out our their lives and not pleasing men and putting them on top?
F*** you infinity and beyond.

There are no such thing as “natural roles” because everybody is different. Not everyone is straight, there are gay, bisexual, trans, etc people too.

And you do know that Aurini is a white supremacist, right? How can he be against discrimnation towards men when he discriminates other men such as non white men?

You are nothing but a bag of puke and pigeon s***. I’m glad that pr*cks like you are staying single and staying away from women and girls. Nobody deserves to be with you.

I initially subbed to him because I was interested in studying personality disorders

I know that when I’m interested in studying personality disorders, I go to a white supremacist pretentious film maker for my information. That’s only natural.

@ abunga

Thank you for that. I genuinely do appreciate that you took the time to respond so fully and candidly.

What I find interesting is that I can agree with some of your observations/premises; but not the conclusions you draw.

Take for example:

PUA-style belief that one’s masculinity is contingent upon how many women one can sleep with

I’ve commented before on how the manosphere only seems to see women in terms of validation. Either self validation (ie how many notches on the bedpost) or more often how other men view them. Hence the obsession with ‘HB10s’ etc. It’s women as Vebler goods rather than people.

But surely having recognised that you can see why it’s better to seek relationships based on what makes you happy (as opposed to what it does for your status) rather than cry off women entirely. Why blame women? They’re not the ones promoting themselves as trophies. That’s entirely down to men pressuring other men.

much of what one has been taught about women is romanticized garbage

Indeed. But again it’s not women plugging the idea of the manic pixie dream girl or suggesting that gatecrashing her wedding with some bold romantic gesture will suddenly woo her. You recognise that’s just pop culture BS so why blame women for it? It’s not women creating false impressions about women, once again it’s men.

To be honest I just don’t get it. You’re clearly quite a bright guy and you are capable of some degree of self analysis (not being derogatory there, thats all a lot of us are capable of) so what’s with all the seagull stuff and the insults? Is it just a bit of a laugh? Are you seriously believing all the MGTOW philosophy or is it just an Internet character you play?

Genuinely interested.

I think “where have all the good men gone” is usually more a figure of speech, stated when one finds that a guy one found attractive turns out to be taken or gay. Or both.

I am a feminist myself, and I know many men I like a lot. Of course, I find men attractive, since I am pretty straight. I’d say most men are more or less tolerable. Miggy would probably not be one of them.

I wonder if it ever occurs to the younger members of the MGTOW “movement” that it was started by a bunch of guy in their 30s or older in an effort to talk younger men into staying away from women so the older ones can get more dates, especially with younger women–at least some of whom haven’t learned to recognize a “nice guy” and/or don’t run away far enough when they do.

Oh goody, Abunga’s still here.
Hey, Fungal! Guess what! I’m on my period as I type this! It’s well onto it’s third week, and showing no signs of stopping! Woo!

Not a troll I’m currently writing a paper on women in computing science (or rather the lack of) using a feminist/sociology of work perspective highlighting tokenism. One of my ‘friends’ whom I thought was more of a critical thinker posted it on FB. I read it and was like – I don’t have time! SO I came here to add the conversation.

I wasn’t in the headspace to break down that crap.

LindsayIrene, Rioting Werebonobo did get the one issue I wanted to say…Nothing like a time warp to the 1980s to put perspective on these things.

UGH, this is the second time that so called friend posted something like this in the past little while… I’m rethinking this relationship.