So there was a bit of a battle in Berkeley on Saturday between a motley crew of alt-rightists who wanted to give some speeches and a bunch of anti-fascist (antifas) who didn’t want them to.
Things got a bit, well, heated, with the alt-right anti-antifas going on a bit of a rampage.
https://twitter.com/shane_bauer/status/853353232151609344
Yes, that’s right, that was one baseball-hatted defender of “free speech” carrying a golf club on the off chance that he might stumble upon a golf course in the middle of the protests, I guess.
I don’t know if that guy used his golf club on any of the antifas, but there were definitely a lot of alt-rightists using their fists.
https://twitter.com/DJTJohnMiller/status/853401848287379456
The “Proud Boys” considered the day to have been a glorious victory.
https://twitter.com/MikeEnochTRS/status/853375610277777408
Hail Victory! https://t.co/EsAd0KYiXt
— Richard Spencer (@RichardBSpencer) April 15, 2017
https://twitter.com/irmahinojosa_/status/853441335054958593
https://twitter.com/jackhatesme/status/853407789066178560
https://twitter.com/ProudBoysCA/status/853337688056909824
While capturing flags is, I guess, quite thrilling, what has the alt-rightists most excited is that bit at the end of ??MAGS4?Trump‘s clip above — in which one anti-antifa dude, identified by assorted observers as white supremacist Nathan Damigo, punched an antifa woman in the face.
https://twitter.com/NEETOBO3/status/853368940407345154
https://twitter.com/HarmlessYardDog/status/853371643414151168
https://twitter.com/irrepressably/status/853405160147746816
The punch was quickly memeified.
So now we have this Punch a Communist in the face meme floating around. #berkeleyprotests pic.twitter.com/19atL33nQn
— RAMZPAUL (@ramzpaul) April 16, 2017
https://twitter.com/EvropaAwakening/status/853416124335104000
Meanwhile, some of the biggest celebrity alt-right fellow travelers — who have gone to great lengths to deny being alt-rightists themselves — cheered on the violence. Some were there.
#Berkley pic.twitter.com/aiqUdLIzx3
— RAMZPAUL (@ramzpaul) April 16, 2017
https://twitter.com/Gavin_McInnes/status/853311216596525057
https://twitter.com/Cernovich/status/853378458520563716
https://twitter.com/Cernovich/status/853408096953257984
https://twitter.com/Lauren_Southern/status/853356615021453312
Southern, ostensibly a journalist, was one of those who was there to witness the “victory” in person, wearing a MAGA helmet and accompanied by “Proud Boy” bodyguards.
https://twitter.com/shane_bauer/status/853367513626759169
Meanwhile, one fellow who’s a bit more honest about his allegiences than many of the alt-right fellow travelers looked toward the future with cautious optimism.
https://twitter.com/NEETOBO3/status/853465353673883648
https://twitter.com/NEETOBO3/status/853466123722936320
https://twitter.com/NEETOBO3/status/853468508679675905
https://twitter.com/NEETOBO3/status/853469689061621760
So how was your Saturday?
Leo, you’re kinda missing the point and as I had just medicated when I wrote that it’s likely my fault but stating it here, it’s not just that, it’s the fact that no matter what I do, where I go, the second I show up I bait the trolls by being a disabled latinx feminist. I can’t not FEED the trolls they fucking show up at random and drop from the sky like bombs. Existing is like walking through a midfield. I can’t not feed the trolls because then I can’t… exist.
Or I just keep quiet, and I’m done doing that.
@Godzilla Roberts
I feel you, definitely (and no, not your fault, hope the medication isn’t too rough on you), but they can’t be everywhere, can they? Not the actually dangerous, proper Neo-Nazi ones, at the very least. Probably not the Alt-right either, I’d have thought? This was a protest, a specific event people came into the city for, wasn’t it?
I don’t know how it is in the US, not fully, only what I hear, so all I can do is try and listen to that. Here, online, there seem enough hateful people who support the DWP and fall hook line and sinker for their ‘not really disabled’ scroungers rhetoric, no matter how many times it’s patiently countered with actual facts. It certainly makes me feel they’d rather I didn’t exist. And we have our own proper Nazis. But in person, day to day, when I’m able to get out and about a little? Strangers have taken to asking me if I’m Ok, if I can manage, which is still a bit of a downer as I take it to mean I must look dreadful, hobbling along with my stick, but they mean well. They are kind. The Neo-Nazis and the horrible people are not really the majority, and even those who support Tory policy are mostly just clueless.
Other things are less immediately visible – no one can look at me and see I’m a feminist. Maybe they could guess you were Latinx, but it seemed from what you were saying they might not.
To me, a lot of these Alt-Righters are beneath our notice, they are idiots, after all, right? We can exist without necessarily taking too much notice of their existence, they ain’t worth it.
And confronting them need not mean physically, putting yourself at further risk.
@Leo
Yes. They can.
I understand it’s not quite as bad in the UK, but over here in the U.S., these Neo-Nazi types are coming out of the woodwork, and they’re not shy about expressing their hateful views, because they have a sycophant in this Oval Office.
We’ve been “ignoring the trolls” for years and years. All it’s done is legitimized their views and made them mainstream. These people actively wish for the death of everyone not like them.
I don’t know that violence is the answer, and frankly, I’m in too much of a privileged position to debate that. But there is a problem. The Nazi rhetoric is reaching a fever pitch, and it’s in all of our mainstream news outlets in one form or another.
This is not just a bunch of Gamergate trolls on the internet (though there is some of that). This is real.
FWIW, this pic has been doing the rounds over here. To give some context, the English Defence League arranged a demo (five of them turned up). Doing the old “go back where you came from” bit. The lass in the photo had a laugh pointing out that, unlike the EDL guy, she was actually born in the town.
Google ‘girl laughs at EDL’ for further details.
@Leo
This is less than an hour from me.
http://www.rawstory.com/2017/04/god-has-given-us-another-chance-speakers-at-pro-trump-rally-urge-crowd-to-prepare-for-a-civil-war/
Make of it what you will.
1. You know about Schrödinger’s Rapist, right? Same deal here.
2. Flat-out denying the risk these omnicidal fucksticles present despite their ever-raising body count, brushing us off as “Hysterical wimminz” or whatever, isn’t pacifism anymore – it’s gaslighting. Fuck you.
@Leo
As POM said of the rise of Nazis in Germany was that they were originally a joke that got legitimized due to the fact the powers that be didn’t squash them early. Downplaying Godzilla Roberts’ concerns about the safety of her and her own like this and implying Godzilla Roberts’ is just paranoid is atrocious behavior from a supposed ally.
In regards to your earlier reply to me, why are we supposed to be the ones who reach out and make deals when they have shown clear contempt of such acts?
@EJ
Given his semi-recent comments I’m pretty sure Dave Mustaine is the Dave Mustaine of the alt-Right 😉
On a more serious note, there’s a post going around with a photoshopped picture claiming that Emily Rose was putting M80s into glass containers and that Nathan Damigo was bravely stopping her. They mention him being a marine vet and also refer to the explosives as IEDs while neglecting to mention Nathan’s white supremacy.
Leo,
There was a wave of hate crimes and sexual harassment immediately following the election. The same thing happened in the UK after the Brexit vote.
Not sure if concern trolling or just naive, but it’s getting tiresome.
@Leo
Maybe you are not in a position to protest. I don’t know you; that’s a decision for you to make.
But it’s not your place to make that same decision for the rest of the fucking world. That antifa was doing nonviolence correctly; she was not throwing punches, but she was provoking a reaction on purpose and got one. That’s how nonviolence works.
What you’re referring to is not nonviolence, it’s passivity. You’re advocating that people passively accept that shit happens and go on with their business, not bothering to support those for whom this privilege does not exist.
The “standard you walk past” statement was given specifically in the context of misogyny in the military (the Australian military in particular, but the Aussies are not unique in this or anything). It’s meant to tell the dudes who aren’t rapists or rape apologists that when they sit by quietly and say nothing while misogynists tell rape jokes and harass women, they are communicating a message that this is acceptable behavior. That passivity is the same as active acceptance. That what happens inside the privacy of your skull counts for exactly nothing if you aren’t willing to act on it.
The statement is just as applicable to racism as it is to misogyny, and considering that white supremacists display both makes it doubly appropriate. The standard you walk past is the standard you accept. Maybe you have to accept the Nazis for whatever reason, but not everyone does, and those who don’t have to accept them are morally obligated to take action on it.
Again, I’m going to say that you are not the arbiter of what people are allowed to do, and you have no moral grounds for claiming that the antifas at that rally shouldn’t have been there. They weren’t rioting, they were using nonviolent protests. They weren’t being passive, and if that’s your beef with them then you have a beef with literally every effective grassroots reform movement in the history of Western civilization. Passivity is the same as acceptance.
@Leo
Milo has planning on outing trans woman students to a bunch of his hateful followers. They (the trans students) could have been hurt or worse.
At Berkeley, Milo was going to identify students that he believed to be illegal immigrants–and the speech was going to be streamed on Breitbart. He outed and mocked a trans woman at UW Milwaukee. Either way, he was putting people in harm’s way.
Yeah, just going to add again Leo, you really need to drop the notion these are harmless trolls and somehow being inside makes you safe. These people are getting louder, bolder and they have power now.
I spent over half my life on the receiving end of extreme bullying, I can tell you what happens next. The people who say just don’t provoke them? You’re not the ones getting killed.
Wasn’t the Milo thing earlier? When I was saying Berkeley, I meant this event, or am I mixing it up?
@Alan
Yup, that’s my own hometown, too! Proud of her as a fellow Brummie. : )
The distinction in the police response is striking, too.
@Poglodyte
It’s not just ‘not quite as bad over here’, it’s nowhere near as bad over here, if you’re telling me it’s literally crawling with actual proper Neo-Nazis. That would be simply impossible for me to really imagine.
A good part of it is down to the mainstream media and their clickbait approach, but I do feel the attention this lot got brought them to more prominence than the numbers merited. I don’t even think Trump would’ve necessarily won if he hadn’t become the story by utilising the outrageous tactics he did, though admittedly in his case it’s harder to tell how much was on purpose. Milo, certainly, he does do it deliberately. Troll tactics. Hence my suggestion, that since paying attention hasn’t worked, debating certainly doesn’t work, can we get away with publicly ignoring them, and publicly denigrating the idea they’re worth taking any notice of? Treat them like flat earthers (some of them are actual flat earthers, they’re that out there) – their ‘racialism’ (aka racism) is as unscientific.
Would be interested to hear other ideas.
@Policy of Madness
As far as I could tell from the video, she grabbed him? I didn’t blame her, but it didn’t look that nonviolent. I would consider non-violence to mean not using force at all, really.
I’m not promoting passivity, I’m suggesting focusing on the government and ‘normal’ Republicans and not fringe far righters, especially the really out there ones. You won’t shift them by confronting them, in any case. Maybe more will join them or they’ll be further emboldened – that’s their reaction right now. The idea is to unite the side they think is theirs in disapproval. Here, our right wing doesn’t like blatant bigots like that horrible EDL man pictured above, either. If you’re trying to shift the Overton window of acceptable discourse, it’s easier to go for the ones closer to the middle.
Nor am I saying ‘it’s totally morally wrong to fight Nazis, tsk tsk’. I’d advocate it if I thought it needed. I’m saying ‘despite the moral justifications, that may not be the best move right now’. Making suggestions as to what to do is not telling anyone what to do.
@weirwoodtreehugger
Yes, I know, though here it was partly more reportage of such crimes. I don’t see that happening as a reason to get into fight with Neo-Nazis. Not concern trolling, I promise, actually concerned people will get killed and that things will just further spiral – that’s what the Neo-Nazis want to happen.
@Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
I am a woman. I’m not denying there’s a risk, I’m saying there is, some of them are dangerous, some of them will become so if caught up in a violent mob, so it might be better to reduce risk by avoiding violent confrontation where possible.
Honestly, I’m not sure what you want me to say. I couldn’t consider ‘Go fight Nazis, good luck!’ to be anything other than irresponsible. That doesn’t make sense if there’s not a risk -and so far, I do think the precise level of risk is unclear- because if there isn’t, then it’s not justified, and if there is a risk, it’s telling people to put themselves in harm’s way, in a situation where the police might not back them up or might be a further threat themselves. It might be more likely to be the most vulnerable people who’d end up doing so and getting hurt or worse. I’m sticking with ‘stay safe’ instead, that’s hardly gaslighting. I’m not a pacifist. I just don’t think this is going to work, not right now. People are of course welcome to explain why they think it will, I’d be very interested.
@Ooglyboggles
I’m just trying to offer reassurance at a difficult time, not downplay concerns – I know there is a risk.
Reach out to the Neo-Nazis and make deals, absolutely no way, that’s not what I’m saying, and it would be impossible, of course, even if remotely desirable which it of course is not.
@Godzilla Roberts
No, I’m probably not going to get killed, that’s true, because the odds of a random Neo-Nazi attack, while they happen, are not that high. I don’t think they are all an active and present threat, if nothing else because they don’t want to be arrested. I think the odds of getting killed will increase if there are more such unpredictable physical confrontations where it may not have been necessary, and I don’t want that to happen to anyone. I’ve been bullied, too, so I do appreciate why you’re upset, they’re horrible.
Yes, their calls for a civil war are really scary, it’s very worrying. I don’t want to see that happen, so I think it’s best if they’re not given further opportunities to fight as much as possible.
Pandering to racists is old hat in the US. It’s a strategy that has been formalized into the Republican Party’s unofficial platform. It works because rank-and-file Republicans are fucking racists. If your goal is to somehow persuade racists to just not be racist anymore, because of reasons, you’ll need to work some kind of magic because that’s been tried and it’s accomplished jack shit.
It’s not considered acceptable in the US to be overtly racist in public, but in private Republicans let loose, as anyone with a racist uncle or grandma can attest. The KKK and the Nazis are doing a social unacceptable thing, but Republicans agree with their position!
Your strategy is useless, in short. Maybe you could pull it off in the UK but in the US you may as well sit on your thumb for all the good it would do. It’s been tried before, and yet here we are.
So while you are quietly tapping your head against a brick wall, the Nazis are out there being Nazis and normalizing overtly racist behavior. It won’t take very long before being a racist in public is fine again, because people will get used to it and nobody seems to be saying anything about it.
“Don’t feed the trolls” doesn’t work. On this blog, we stuff trolls until they explode. That doesn’t work either, but at least we are entertaining ourselves and providing a good example to lurkers that troll behavior is beyond the pale. There is something that works, though: the banhammer, the IRL equivalent of which is state action. But the state is reluctant to act against white people, so your options are to make it clear that racism is unacceptable, or to “ignore it” and make it seem to bystanders like racism is acceptable to you, or at least no big deal.
Trolls are gonna troll. You can’t control someone else’s behavior. You can’t stop trolls from trolling. You can only control your own behavior, and the message you send. The message your preferred behavior sends is passive and accepting, regardless of whether that is what you want or intend to send.
@Ooglyboogles
Yeah, sorry, I’m not good with fumbling with html on a five-minute deadline.
Is it ethical to punch a neo-Nazi? We asked the experts.
Seems to work now.
@D
The link works, thank you for the response.
As far law is concerned, holding and voicing a particular set of beliefs aren’t grounds for pre-emptive violence. Initiating tends to muddy the waters as to what gets reported. And there’s legitimate questions as to exactly who deserves it, how extreme the views need to be. True, the far-right taking control of public spaces will be an inherently threatening event to a lot of people, (which begs the question why are local government entities in the US allow it?) , but it seems like most of the time a shout-down counter-protest would be enough without resorting to violence unless people get attacked.
@Bryce
I think not only as to how extreme the views need to be, but how you can even tell, in a mass protest, especially when things span out of control already. This manifestation of the far right are a loosely connected group that can’t agree with each other for five seconds, and they’re not all Neo-Nazis (…even the Nazi ones, horrifying as it is either way, can’t manage to agree on things like if it’s Jewish people or black people the main enemy, or on what to do about it. Yuk…), but if there’s a ‘free speech’ protest people who don’t agree with everything they say, and people who are just terminally clueless, are potentially going to turn up. I imagine many of us, at least if we’re patient and I don’t blame anyone who isn’t, have encountered someone online who uses some of the same type of language as the really awful ones (‘libruls going too far, taking away mah freeze peach!’), sometimes a lot more subtly than that, who doesn’t actually seem to agree with all their horrible views, and may express outright disapproval. Whether they’re lying is hard to tell sometimes, of course some do moderate what they’re saying at times depending on their audience, but I do think people like that exist. And some are so myopic they really don’t seem to see much beyond video game ‘censorship’. And then, hmm, it’s hard to say this tactfully, but I’m not neurotypical myself, so: I don’t think all of them are. That doesn’t justify their views or mean they deserve more sympathy than the victims, but sometimes it goes partway to explaining their behaviour, along with male entitlement.
Will respond later, Policy of Madness.
@Alan
I was going though the comments to see if anyone would post that photo, thanks 🙂 Saved me the trouble! I was at the protest (on the anti-EDL side obviously!) representing the Greens. Met the brave woman in the photo and the hijab wearing Muslim woman who was getting vile racist abuse from the EDL thugs and who the woman in the photo stepped in to help.
Member when feminists wanted to end chivalry?
Congratulations, you have achieved said goal at least in that part of the world.
@ Simon
Some friends suggested the lass wasn’t really a Brummy because “you can understand her”; but they are from Wolverhampton.
It’s sad but we have had had a lot of hijab related queries in our little Krav circles. FWIW, if you know anyone who has had trouble this may be of some minor help:
@ Simon
It’s sad but we have had quite a few hijab related queries to our various Krav groups. FWIW, if you know anyone affected this might be of some minor help.
(Apologies for the production values but it was an urgent sort of thing)
I notice that these Twitter eggs all have Syrian flags in their names. Yet they’re the first people who would lose their shit if Syrian refugees came ashore. You know, Camp of the Saints and all that cal.
How the hell do they even square THAT circle, I wonder?