The incel subreddit is filled with angry dudes who think their inability to convince any human females to have sex with them — their “INvoluntary CELibacy” — is some kind of human rights violation.
Many of these guys aren’t just mad that teen and twentysomething hotties aren’t leaping into bed with them; they’re mad in advance at any hypothetical “post-wall” women who would have sex with them. Because, you see, these bitter fellows imagine that all these women spent their prime hottie years having near-c0nstant sex with other dudes, thus using up all their sexual appeal, or something.
In other words, these guys think sex with any woman over 30 is like eating leftovers that have been quietly rotting away for a week in the fridge.
On the Incels subreddit today, a fellow calling himself jackville07 sets forth his version of this basic thesis:
I have so many questions. First off, why would any woman over thirty possibly want to have sex with a dude who sees her as the sexual equivalent of week-old lasagna sitting in the back of the fridge?
And second, are you aware that having sex with a woman over the age of thirty is not actually the sexual equivalent of eating week-old lasagna sitting in the back of the fridge?
Incel dudes: Here’s the thing. Not everyone starts having sex at a young age. Some don’t lose their virginity until they’re 30 or older — and this includes plenty of women. And very few people out there are having the constant sex you imagine everyone but you is having. Lots of people have dry spells — some of them years long. There are even some “Chads” out there who are, to use your term, “involuntary celibate.”
There’s nothing to be ashamed of, and nothing to be angry about. It’s a part of life, not some plot engineered by the world’s women just to make you miserable.
Here’s the other thing: Incel dudes, as long as you have these attitudes, you are basically unfuckable. No woman — under thirty, over thirty, any age — should have to put up with a guy who hates them so much he’s furious that she’s ever had sex with anyone but him.
If you are able to purge yourself of these toxic ideas about women and sex, you might end up discovering that sex with women over thirty (or forty, or fifty, or OMG even older than that!) can actually be pretty damn awesome? If you get to the point of having sex on a relatively regular basis, enjoy the sex you are having, don’t sit around nursing your bitterness over hypothetical sex you didn’t have when you were younger.
One incel Redditor responded to jackville07 with this nonsense:
I’m sorry you were bullied, dude; no one deserves that. But as for the rest of your comment, well, fuck you. You didn’t “get laid at 18?” Big damn deal. Roughly a third of American males aged 18 and 19 are still virgins. If you spend the rest of your life bitter about the sex you weren’t having at age 18, no woman will ever want to fuck you, including the “chubbies” you’re now begging for sex.
Dudes, stop obsessing over the sex you’re not having. Stop reading the incel subreddit. Go to therapy. Your bitterness and hatred of women is rooted in self-hate; so are your feelings about older women and “chubbies.” Do your best to work through all of these issues. You will become a better person. You will become a happier person. You will become the sort of person women want to have sex with.
I had a three year dry spell in my 20s during university. Don’t know why, but i got desperate enough to make a plentyoffish profile. It’s mostly fun but everyone on it seems to be in it for the no-strings shag.
However since passing the wall/carousel its been a wall to wall love-fest culminating in marriage to a kind and decent man.
I only post this because it seems so different to what the incels think life is like after 30 and yet it is my lived experience. Also I like to boast about my lovely husband as often as pos.
A recent article in Elle magazine about one particular incel ‘leader’ (?)
http://www.elle.com/life-love/sex-relationships/a33782/involuntary-celibacy/
Thanks for the link the the elle article! It’s interesting to see how the uninitiated first respond to MGTOW logic.
Continuing to bang on about my nice guy husband I should note that I actually friendzoned him during my dry spell. But things, and people can change, so now we’re married. I thought noone ever gets out of the friendzone?
Now I’ve read that elle article I feel a little sorry for the guy who runs love-shy, who sounds like a very sad anxious fellow. Although I note that he applies a double standard for older female virgins (“I would be suspicious”) which reduces the case for sympathy a little. Many things on the internet start with good intentions, but end with a shit-show.
@ rugbyyogi
Thanks for that link. I still find that “We know more about women than anyone else; including women” attitude bewildering but fascinating.
On video games and misogynists : Gamergate is what happens when they slowly start realizing that they’ve never been in control of the narrative, and that the people who are in control aren’t as friendly to them as they used to be.
I don’t think they were enabled by how it used to be. I mean, I’m in my mid-20s, have been exposed to media for my whole life (started reading pretty young) and got my first console at age 7 – we’re talking deep exposure here, so deep that it all effectively crystalized into my passion for writing.
And I was the bullied kid for long, long years too – and weirdly, at some point in high school I became one of the popular kids somehow, mainly on account of having been acquainted with booze and drugs a long time before that, and suddenly landing in an environment where it was glorified and I didn’t feel like I had to hide it anymore. Guess what ? It solved nothing. I was still as miserable as I’d ever been. But I was often the only one left miserably standing at 5am, and that counts for something, apparently.
Sexual life wasn’t exactly grand either. First time age 12 in nerve-rattling and heart-wrenching circumstances, at a time where I was looking for love, not sex. 14 to 16, I still only cared for sex as a way to get some human warmth if not love, and I got lots of it – and boy was it warm, and fuzzy, what with all the booze and drugs, again. Livin’ the dream, huh. All the while desperately in love with someone who didn’t wanna speak to me for the better part of those years.
First ever relationship at age 17, and it was a loveless catastrophe that dragged on for a year and ended very badly. I only wanted what everything since my birth had been telling me I should want (and deserved) and predictably it only led to more pain.
Then three months of bliss, happiness, love, whatever, around the time I turned 19. That was what I’d been looking for, in a way – not what I’d been taught to expect, but what truly made me happy. Had even found somewhere I belonged, which was big and new for me. It ended in another catastrophe, and then it’s back to depression. Been like that for the past five years and a half, and it led to one heck of a dry spell, barely interrupted a few times is all. Mainly, when the LDR I ended up in got much closer-distance for all of two weeks (so I went to the US for the first time in my life and did literally zero sight-seeing, went through San Francisco and didn’t even see dat bridge) and huh, also those two times when I cheated because I was a fucking idiot, the “poly but doesn’t wanna accept it” kind of idiot. Complete absolute dry spell since the break-up. Or maybe since therapy, since those two happened in succession, for a reason that I totally can’t fathom at all. (I’ve mentioned before what “therapy” looks like in this country). Oh and of course, total isolation during all that time, and it’s still going.
So hey, here’s my run so far, in a nutshell. I’m 24 and all of the pain has something to do with one woman or another. Recipe for misogyny, huh ? And I ain’t even mentioned the asshole father yet : well, he’s the nastiest example of a misogynist I’ve ever seen in meatspace, and with the places I’ve been, I’ve seen a lot of nasty ones. He’s also a manipulative fuck with a knack for convincing people he’s the smartest, coolest, kindest guy around – effectively sets himself as an example and his traits very easily rub off on people.
So then tell me how come I ain’t incelling all over Reddit yet.
I’m sure there’s a recipe for incels, and I’m sure that those ingredients are part of it. I just don’t think it’s enough, and there’s gotta be something wrong with the pot too. Otherwise you get fucked-up specimens like me and mine, but at least we aren’t as creepy.
‘kay, I’m done rambling. I’ma huh go back to my business of playing video games and not being too much of a raging asshole about my love and sex life.
@Alan Robertshaw
Most humans are self-deceiving to some extent. But to blame an entire gender smacks more of projection than any kind of reflection or self-awareness.
@Dalilama: I’m leaning more toward that theory myself. Do you have any links? I’d love to read what actual *trained* scientists are discovering! Beloved and I were actually discussing last night how she likes that I’m direct and upfront about things, and I reminded her that I have told her that I miss subtlety; in fact, when we first got together, it took me a couple of weeks to realize she liked me *like that*. It would have been easier to put it on a billboard than to hint around and hope I’d pick up on it!
@IgnoreSandra: Yeah, that was poor phrasing on my part, sorry. But very cool about the girl, and good luck! That sounds like a really neat conversation, and also encouraging. 🙂
Hello.
So, as someone (Weirdwood treehugger, i think) already pointed it out, “involuntary celibacy” is an antinomy as, according to dictionnary and wikipedia, celibacy is, i quote, “the state of voluntarily being unmarried, sexually abstinent, or both”. You can have artistic license for some antinomies (like “clair-obscur”), but from what i read, redditers are hardly recognized as poets or meaningful writers, essayists or the like. So associating involuntary to celibacy is as relevant as saying something like “the good music of Jul” (well, i am biased here, spank me).
And, as the definition says it, you can still be celibate and have sexual relations, as it is not mandatory for the vow (except in some religions, with chastety vow). Mind you, due to the slowness to authorize marriage for all, there are many couples where the partners can not or do not want to marry and thus stay celibate. So, even for the main term of the expression, those redditers are not even right in its usage.
If, from 13, you did not have parents, i am sorry for you. On the other case, it is unlikely you had no benefit from at least their house, and maybe food and other commodities. So you are your own ZERO, disgrateful asshole (even worked off).
Have a nice day.
This aspect of manospherianism is what cracks me up the most.
Here’s how ancient I am: if I had had a child when I “hit the wall” she would have “hit the wall” by now. I am so old that the terrorists would rather surrender than have sex with me. I am so old that a MGTOW would either pity me for not being dead, or be mad at me for using up oxygen.
(chuckles)
Although I am old, fat old, have two cats and some purple in my hair, and did I mention I’m old, (and though, as my nym suggests, I screen out political undesirables) my sex life is highly satisfactory and would almost certainly flip out the incels.
Even more shocking, it is not the most important part of my life, doesn’t take a lot of time, and does not drive any other life choices. (That is a broad hint to any manospherians reading: Dude – get a life!)
Alas, “the wall” does not keep assholes from hassling a woman. The content gets less “flattering” and more negative but it feels exactly the same. Because it was never about attraction, or about “complimenting” her/me. It’s an exercise of power.
_____
I keep imagining a female-positive erotic video of the cock carousel. Maybe animation… I have no graphic skills though. Anybody wanna collaborate?
The whole direct/blunt speech thing is one trait I don’t have and never did (kinda*), to my knowledge anyway. I heard “think before you speak” a lot when I was a kid and always mentally inserted ‘or you’re gonna get a smack (or at least yelled at)’. So maybe I was just trained out of it.
*I generally think it but don’t say it.
I’m hoping to know for sure soonish (by mid-July) if I’m on the spectrum, I’m pretty sure I’m Aspie (and the online tests I’ve done think so too).
It’s like they got their world view from a 1960’s underground comic…
@ Dan Kasteray
Thanx, I appreciate that. I, too, developed a very emotionally satisfying sense of empathy, particularly for people who are bullied (which, IMO is a helluv a lot of people)
@ Lysistrata
*hyuck 😉 *
ETA: just fyi, I’m so old that a woman “hits the wall” at an age just shy of my son’s age… and dating the women that these people think I should be after would be hitting on my granddaughter’s classmates….
@Jesalyn: Oh, I was trained out of it, but it’s not natural for me to be subtle, so it’s difficult. I usually either don’t say anything, or when I do, I try to make it as nice as possible *for me*. I refer to a lot of it as my “public face”, which is exhausting, and I’m at the point where I just don’t care so much anymore, so I’m starting to break out of that even in public a little.
My sons are 17 and 21 and both virgins (I just know this – honestly it is not some weird dominant mother thing!) and they are comfortable with that. I believe that that is because they do not experience peer pressure and are not vulnerable to the type of media that makes young people feel bad for not having a sexual partner.
I am generally neutral about it, but a little glad, as my sexual experiences as a teen left me with a burning hatred of a particular man. I know that they are unlikely to have the same experiences, but I feel that being a bit older is better – you know yourself better, and have more confidence and better self esteem.
To assess yourself as some kind of failure because you didn’t have sex in your teens is really pathetic. You must be far too fixated on it for it to be just a simple case of sexual frustration. As I said before, actual sexual pleasure and intimacy does not even seem to be a part of it.
I know that as a teen girl I was desperate for the social approval that having a bf brought, and unfortunately the boys/ men I was with expected sex and I had been brought up by a non feminist but extremely liberal mother whose attitude to sex was open, but unfortunately very poor on dealing with men assertively.
Just to chip in my story, I too am one of those guys who found that therapy was a great help to finding a sense of self-esteem. I suffered from depression and combined with some really toxic classmates at college, it just left me feeling really down on myself for not “getting laid” and being a virgin at 20. I alternated between hatred for my (in retrospect) misogynist classmates and myself for not being able to fit in with them. But over time, I learned that it wasn’t healthy to dwell on such things and focused on what made me feel comfortable in my own skin and went from there.
I find myself paraphrasing that that exchange in Real Genius where Chris Knight explains to Mitch that he had been in Mitch’s position before and spent three years dressed in white shirts and Hush Puppies ensuring a girl would never talk to him. While they were talking about academics, it’s a fair point that these guys feeling like they’re “losers” for being virgins really are suffering from the same self-esteem issues that a lot of us have and we’ve all been there to varying degrees.
I think that’s what bothers me the most about the whole “incel” concept: it describes the very real sense of adolescent and young adult awkwardness and confusion and questioning that all young people have, but then twists it into something really dark and awful and it just leaves these vulnerable guys stewing in anger and hate. Not sure how many Mammotheers are familiar with Wizardchan, but picture a 4chan for self-described “incels.” It’s as depressing as it sounds.
Part of me wishes the internet was more sophisticated when I was in school, cuz Dr. Nerdlove would have helped immensely.
@Her Grace Phryne
Much like me then, although at home I get to drop some of the ‘nice’. My partner, much like me, has a low tolerance for jackasses.
I just flat out call it what it is, my ‘public mask’. It’s a bloody huge drain on my energy, between portraying myself as being ‘calm, cool and collected’ with a hint of ’emotionally dead’ and large helping of ‘polite’ (ie. don’t call a jackass a jackass, and remember that other people exist) and some serious social anxiety, I barely ever go out unless I absolutely have to.
Oh, no, with my Beloved, I drop all pretense of “nice”. Which is nice. Neither of us has much tolerance for assholes being assholes.
I hear you on that. I practically became a hermit for a while, but now I’m starting to just go, “Y’know what, this is me. Deal with it.” But I’m also getting to the point of liking who I am and dealing with a bunch of bullshit baggage from the past, so it might just be that I’m tired of pretending for people who don’t care.
At least he admits he’s immature and that’s part of why he wants a young woman. Then he keeps talking and all hope of self awareness goes out the window.
What’s funny is that he’s mad that a woman his age might have turned down everyone else who propositioned her but would be willing to have sex with him. Wouldn’t it be flattering that she was waiting for the right person and it was him? Wouldn’t that boost the low self esteem he whines about?
These guys are very good at getting people to feel bad for them. At first. To outsiders they claim they’re not misogynistic, they’re just nice guys who are socially awkward and unable to find a partner. But if you look at their forums and blogs, they say some pretty misogynistic and sometimes terrifying things to each other. As much as they try to put a good face on when they venture from their online spaces, it doesn’t take much prodding to get them to reveal their misogyny and entitlement. I’ve seen a number of sad boner trolls both on this site and others and it’s always the same with them.
Notice how the “incel” is not so much involuntarily celibate as voluntarily celibate. This guy has closed himself off to just about any potential partner. He doesn’t want anyone with experience. He doesn’t want anyone with no experience that isn’t very young. I’d be almost scared to ask just how young he’s going for here. He doesn’t want anyone who isn’t “attractive.” I’m by no means saying that someone should feel obliged to have sex with someone they aren’t attracted to but when he phrases it like this
It’s all about how other perceive his partner, not whether or not he personally finds her attractive. If other guys aren’t chasing her, if she’s not a trophy, he’s not into her.
So, he’s backed himself into a corner. The only partner he wants is a beautiful young virgin that other men are interested in but hasn’t turned down too many men either. The chances of finding this diminish considerably with each passing year because unless young women have really changed since I was that age, 18 or 19 year old women don’t tend to be into being creeped on by men old enough to be their fathers. Women are still often naive at that age, but since we start getting street harassment as soon as puberty hits, we tend to be able to suss out if a guy is just a creep who’s scared of women his own age and trying to perv on all the young women.
Honestly, this guy kind of scares me because even women in the 18-25 year old range can’t really fulfill his criteria. Conventionally attractive young women tend to have plenty of chances to have sex during high school and therefore a lot of women who are young but still consenting adults don’t fit his criteria. It’s really only going to be 14 or 15 year olds who fit his demands. I really home he doesn’t start preying on kids to get rid of his “involuntary” celibacy.
Now because I’m morbidly fascinated by the whole incel thing, I’m going to read the rest of the article and see if there’s anything else I can pull apart.
So, he claims to think the site is too misogynistic, but won’t shut it down or at least ban misogynistic talk. Two options here. Either he agrees with the misogyny and just won’t say it aloud to the (overly sympathetic IMO) reporter. Or he just has no sense of self awareness or personal responsibility whatsoever. It could be a combo of both.
So he didn’t want to make any move and when he did get an opportunity he didn’t take it. As someone who is a bit shy and awkward when it comes to dating, I completely understand this. I’ve often not a made a move when I wanted to or not known how to just simply start a conversation with someone I’m attracted to. So I’m not judging his awkwardness and shyness here.
What I am judging is that even though it’s pretty clear that the problem is with him and he knows it, he’s chosen to spend his entire adult life judging women for not fixing all his problems and encouraging thousands of other young men to do the same.
Interesting how it doesn’t even seem like he attempted to interview unhappily virginal women. It’s so gross. Even from the start, the incel movement has taken the view that women are objects to be won. As objects, we can’t possibly feel shyness or insecurity or have troubles with dating and sex that distress us. And it never occurs to them to connect these attitudes with their troubles with women. Seriously. How are you going to connect with a woman if you don’t see her as fully human?
What need does going on misogynistic rants even fill? It’s clearly not helping them. He’s using the term therapy very loosely here. Why it’s almost like they don’t want help overcoming their anxiety around dating and sex and just want an excuse to go on misogynistic rants.
Unless you’re a woman with problems finding a partner and you go to a loveshy forum seeking support and instead find virulent misogyny. Or unless you’re a gay man with problems finding a partner and all the focus on how women are denying incels their due completely erases his own experience and issues.
Hey, good news incels. There are women who are “icel” too! Perhaps if the forums were to become less misogynistic and more woman-friendly we might get some love matches between male and female love shy people who have so much in common!
Well, I’m just so shocked to hear that!
See incels, this is why people say – rightly, so – that you’re doing this to yourself.
See. This is why I have absolutely no sympathy for incels and no one else should either. They complain that they can’t connect with women and then go out of their way to drive off any women who may be willing to connect with them.
Oh please. We aren’t an alien species. We’re all just human. If you don’t think you can talk to women, even ones who have similar life experiences to yours, you are never going to stop being incel. Anecdotal, I know. I’m not sure this has ever been studied. But in my experience, the hetero men who do the best dating and sex wise tend to be the men who don’t view women as an other. They tend to have female friends and acquaintances and are willing and able to talk to us whether or not they want us as partners. Really. How do they expect to get a girlfriend if they think we’re so bizarre and mysterious they can’t even have a conversation with us!
I read through the whole article waiting to hear what Michael wants in a partner and never saw anything except that comment about youth and virginity. Nothing about the personality type he finds attractive. Nothing about similar interests and similar perspectives on politics and religion. He mentions sports and hiking as interests but doesn’t mention wanting to find someone who is into those things and also sexually attractive to him. It’s just young and hot. That’s all he cares about. Even the highly sexist and problematic manic pixie dream girls that are all over the movies have more to them than that as one dimensional as they are.
Sorry for the tl;dr. Like I said, I find incels morbidly fascinating. They’re just so infuriating because as someone who has some stuff in common with the “loveshy,” I know their attitudes are so toxic and self defeating. The fact that I’ve been there and didn’t respond with hate and entitlement is why I have just no sympathy for them.
@Bina
Crud. No invisibility cloak at all? You’re sure? 🙁
Also, all I could think when I read this:
…was some dude leaning out his car saying “Hey baby” and you standing there like
http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/39/3986085418874f6535854ac97af89db3dc2b259b2c40af471ce031f11ab9a81a.jpg
@weirdwoodtreehugger
The persisting social script for men to initiate and carry the interaction at the formative stage of the relationship can give the impression that women are less interest and making a deliberate choice to remain passive, particularly to those unable to adequately take on that role and unwilling to contemplate the underlying causes.
At almost 38, as far as I could tell no-one has ever hinted at any interest, so I can understand the temptation to wallow, but it’s not really reasonable to think only men have to experience this, especially considering women are all-but openly discouraged from being assertive and asking men out.
So, in my early twenties I went through a pretty long dry spell while it seemed all of my friends were having all the romantic fun in the world. I got pretty bad, very depressed and bitter (though not as worked up as these weird internet people you quote). Thing is, though, I got through it. I grew up. I got over myself. And man oh man do these guys not know what they are missing out on vis-a-vis over 30 sex.
I wish I could convince them to take on a version of Pascal’s Gambit relating to women. Just act as if women are complete human beings, each an individual, who are much more like men than they are different, and after a while they will find out that Holy Shit! It’s true! Just act as if sex isn’t the be-all, end-all of life; it’s just something people who connect on that level can do for fun if they want, and Holy Shit! It’s true!
What do they have to lose? Their horrible internet subculture? I don’t know. Nobody tried talking sense to me when I was down, but I did not have a support group of like minded haters reinforcing my worst thoughts and keeping me from growing out of it.
Nothing happened for me until I moved past the hatred. People in that state are truly unfuckable.
@weirwoodtreehugger
Damn dude, great comment, I read the whole thing, you totally hit the nail on the head there. I can sympathize with these guys at first because I’m in the same situation, but it all falls apart when they start blaming women and generally being entitled little shits. If I ever had a chance with a girl, which I haven’t, I’d probably be just as clueless and never make the first move, because I don’t even know what a move is or how to make one, but how you can realize that and still place the blame on anyone but yourself completely blows my mind. The only thing more baffling is how they expect any woman to want to be part of their community when you can feel the resentment radiating from that “welcome” message like a fucking quasar.
I don’t consider myself an “incel” because there’s nothing involuntary about my situation, I’m sure there’s something I could do to fix it, I just don’t know what it is or I’m too incompetent to get it right. But for lack of a better term, I’m certain the experience for male and female “incels” is no different, these guys just tell themselves it is so they can continue to blame them for everything. As far as I’ve noticed, the only difference is that women tend to attract a lot of creeps regardless of how they look. But that doesn’t make the situation any different for them, because even though they technically have a chance, they want nothing to do with creeps, just as these male “incels” apparently want nothing to do with a woman over 30. So as far as I’m concerned, the difference between male and female “incels” is like the difference between a 25 year old virgin, and a 25 year old virgin with a swarm of bees following them around. Aside from the whole bee thing, the experience is exactly the same.
That sounds right to me.
It comes down also I think to the stereotypes about women being more emotionally intelligent. People who don’t grok that women are human beings always seem to believe that we’re all born knowing how to flirt and otherwise interact with people we are interested in or people who are interested in us. We’re also not supposed to nervous that we don’t look good naked or don’t kiss well because we just have to lie there and passively agree to sexual activity and it’s all good. They also don’t understand that harassment is annoying or threatening. Not flattering.
They also don’t get that there’s a flip side to the expectation that men do the pursuing. Yes, if you ask someone out and get turned down, that’s rejection and it sucks. But if you’re a woman and you’re told your whole life that someday a nice man will sweep you off your feet, and then none even try, that’s a different type of rejection. It means (according to cultural messages) that you were not worthy. If men are “supposed” to pursue us if they are interested, every man who isn’t pursuing us must not be interested.
@ryeash:
Yup, you pretty much nailed it with only slight exaggeration. I’ve been catcalled while wearing the unsexiest things imaginable. Puffy coat, baggy jeans, Docs, no makeup, hair pulled back in a boring-ass pony. And STILL got some curb-crawler trying to pick me up. Protective coloration, I’m clearly doing it rong.