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Incels agree: It’s “unfair and cruel” to expect men to enjoy sex with women over 30

Happily, we don’t live in a world in which we’re put to death at the age of 30

The incel subreddit is filled with angry dudes who think their inability to convince any human females to have sex with them — their “INvoluntary CELibacy” — is some kind of human rights violation.

Many of these guys aren’t just mad that teen and twentysomething hotties aren’t leaping into bed with them; they’re mad in advance at any hypothetical “post-wall” women who would have sex with them. Because, you see, these bitter fellows imagine that all these women spent their prime hottie years having near-c0nstant sex with other dudes, thus using up all their sexual appeal, or something.

In other words, these guys think sex with any woman over 30 is like eating leftovers that have been quietly rotting away for a week in the fridge.

On the Incels subreddit today, a fellow calling himself jackville07 sets forth his version of this basic thesis:

If You did Not Enjoy Women in Your Youth then You got a RAW DEAL (self.Incels) submitted 8 hours ago by jackville07 Study hard, when ur 30 and successful all the women will finally mature and chase u since u will be a rich doctor. Dont worry All those chads will be working at a gas station at 30. Ur time will come. There is someone for everyone. Am I supposed to feel happy that I studied and worked my ass off (with ZERO help from ANYONE) from 13-30 without love,sex and intimacy and without enjoying a woman in her PRIME and BEST years. I must now accept a lower paying less educated woman who is past her prime and less attractive with sagging skin and stretch marks and who was a cum bucket for tons of chads for 17 years and be grateful and happy with that??? Why should men even live if we are given such a raw deal in life?? Totally unfair and cruel if u ask me.

I have so many questions. First off, why would any woman over thirty possibly want to have sex with a dude who sees her as the sexual equivalent of week-old lasagna sitting in the back of the fridge?

And second, are you aware that having sex with a woman over the age of thirty is not actually the sexual equivalent of eating week-old lasagna sitting in the back of the fridge? 

Incel dudes: Here’s the thing. Not everyone starts having sex at a young age. Some don’t lose their virginity until they’re 30 or older — and this includes plenty of women. And very few people out there are having the constant sex you imagine everyone but you is having. Lots of people have dry spells — some of them years long. There are even some “Chads” out there who are, to use your term, “involuntary celibate.”

There’s nothing to be ashamed of, and nothing to be angry about. It’s a part of life, not some plot engineered by the world’s women just to make you miserable.

Here’s the other thing: Incel dudes, as long as you have these attitudes, you are basically unfuckable. No woman — under thirty, over thirty, any age — should have to put up with a guy who hates them so much he’s furious that she’s ever had sex with anyone but him.

If you are able to purge yourself of these toxic ideas about women and sex, you might end up discovering that sex with women over thirty (or forty, or fifty, or OMG even older than that!) can actually be pretty damn awesome? If you get to the point of having sex on a relatively regular basis, enjoy the sex you are having, don’t sit around nursing your bitterness over hypothetical sex you didn’t have when you were younger.

One incel Redditor responded to jackville07 with this nonsense:

thegambler952 5 points 9 hours ago i feel you because im walking toward this path. i lost the best years of my life in a shitty university due to bullying. i will never get laid at 18 because im 21. fuck this. im too old and all girls are geting married while im pleading for chubbys to take my virginity

I’m sorry you were bullied, dude; no one deserves that. But as for the rest of your comment, well, fuck you. You didn’t “get laid at 18?” Big damn deal. Roughly a third of American males aged 18 and 19 are still virgins. If you spend the rest of your life bitter about the sex you weren’t having at age 18, no woman will ever want to fuck you, including the “chubbies” you’re now begging for sex.

Dudes, stop obsessing over the sex you’re not having. Stop reading the incel subreddit. Go to therapy. Your bitterness and hatred of women is rooted in self-hate; so are your feelings about older women and “chubbies.” Do your best to work through all of these issues. You will become a better person. You will become a happier person. You will become the sort of person women want to have sex with.

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msexceptiontotherule
msexceptiontotherule
4 years ago

This incel mentality seems to start pretty early on, maybe there needs to be some sort of effort made with parents? Not “don’t let your kids watch tv or play video games”, more like “talk to your kids about how what they see on tv and in video games isn’t real, it is people playing roles (or monsters, animated-for-entertainment-but-that-candelabra-won’t-talk-to-you-in-real-life)” kind of stuff?

As nice as telling kids they can do anything they set their mind to, pairing that with no discussion on why that actress or actor was able to do X-Y-Z perfectly sets them up for feeling like they failed at achieving something that was never realistic because it was only possible in a tv/movie/video game universe.

Handsome :Punkle Stan: Jack

I just want to gush about everything in this season premiere but at the same time it would ruin the surprise.

The writing, art and animation is just, like…that’s Samurai Jack. And it’s so far just as amazing as the old Samurai Jack, albeit with slightly prettier art (because HD and computers are much more common in animation) and more adult things. Like, blood was shone and pretty sure in, like, 2001 kid’s cartoons that was a no-no, but even if it’s slightly more mature, it still has the core of the earlier seasons.

For real, so far, if you like Samurai Jack, peeps, you’re not gonna be disappointed. He’s back and shit is going down.

Dan Kasteray
Dan Kasteray
4 years ago

I just want to say this as someone who was bullied as a kid.

Being bullied never made me want to bully others or made me expect that the world owed me something because I was bullied. And it sure as fuck never made me want to disregard the pain and bullying that others went through like I’m playing in the opression olympics.

I’m not sure what set me apart from these so called Incels, but I do get offended when people winge about bullying, and then turn around and want to bully and lord over others.

I’m not a perfect human being by any measure and my personal faults would take no less than thirty years to list if I never slept.

But it really, really gets today of all days to see these self pitying assholes envy the bullies and want to emulate them.

IgnoreSandra
IgnoreSandra
4 years ago

I am 23, going on 24, and fellows will fall in line…

Oh wait. That’s not how that song goes. I honestly find it super creepy that every time they bring up a woman’s age, it’s always to try and use it to deny her self-worth and personal agency. And that’s old enough to be in the Sound of Music. So yeah, these people are just like Rolfe from that musical. Even to the point where they’re supporting American nazis.

Also: 13-30? IS THIS ASSHOLE ACTUALLY SAYING HE WANTS TO FUCK KIDS? Fucking pedophilic jackass. The age of consent in my locality is 18, and it definitely fucking applies when someone in their late twenties or early thirties or even fucking older is talking about 13 fucking year fucking olds.

My understanding of virginity is that if you don’t regard the sex you’ve had as a positive experience, it doesn’t count. So in that respect, I am a 23-year old virgin who is a woman. As other commenters have pointed out, we exist. When I was younger, I wanted to have sex very badly, but I never blamed other people for the fact that they didn’t want to get with me. I played at that a bit, to try and distract myself from hating myself so much, but I never could escape the truth the common factor in all of those circumstances was me. And that the only real power I have is over myself.

Therapy helped me, some. I can’t really afford to keep going now, but while I was going I was diagnosed with Asperger’s and learned a lot about how to work with that and address other people. Of course, now I’m at a point in my life where I’m kinda refusing to not be Aspie because neurotypicals expect it, so my pride is turning my perpetual singleness into a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts. And I actually have no problem with that. Social connection is important to human functioning, sex simply isn’t. It’s a fun thing you can sometimes do, but it’s not that important. It’s certainly not more important to me than refusing to conform to demands that should never have been placed on me in the first place.

Lone Galtian Bootstrapper
Lone Galtian Bootstrapper
4 years ago

I don’t think that men like this think of having sex as a pleasureable thing to do in and of itself, but as a way of proving oneself and of achieving worth by comparing the ‘conquests’. The sex could be absolutely awful for both parties but if the ‘female’ in question is a teenager, slim and fulfils other criteria these saddo’s would be delighted with the experience. There is no hint at all that they see sex as a mutually enjoyable experience.

BLAMMO. All in one.

Kat
Kat
4 years ago

If any woman ever expressed an interest in a relationship with an incel, he’d probably collapse from the excitement.

Then — once he picked himself up off the floor — he’d ruin the relationship. Destroying a relationship doesn’t take long, maybe a minute or two.

Kat
Kat
4 years ago

@Alan

“Government gets girlfriends” is both an incel philosophy and the handle of a particularly notorious incel blogger (if you are going to look him up there aren’t enough trigger warnings in the universe).

The proposals vary from state sponsored prostitution through a sort of ‘sexual socialism’ (basically women’s rights being tied to willingness to have sex with incels) to outright sexual slavery.

I discovered this philosophy after Elliot Rodger’s killing spree. I went on 4chan for the first time, and they were talking about their hero, Elliot, and also proposing that the government send women to incels.

Which I found amusing because years earlier I had suggested to an awful boyfriend (who claimed to be way left) that he wanted the government to send him a different, compliant girlfriend every six months.

I was charmed when I went to the women’s march in San Francisco and spotted this sign: “Intersectional or GTFO.” Just three words pretty much summed up my side of a lot of arguments.

Kat
Kat
4 years ago

OT: Trump

Every day some horrible new thing.

After Pledging to Donate Salary, Trump Declines to Release Proof

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/after-pledging-donate-salary-trump-declines-release-proof-n732466

John F. Kennedy donated all but $1 of his salary as president ($100,000) to charity. He also donated his salary to charity when he was a senator. And he managed the Cuban missile crisis well enough that the planet didn’t explode. Nah, I’m not going to defend JFK’s sexism.

Hambeast (fan of diversity)
Hambeast (fan of diversity)
4 years ago

Moggie – The idea of government-issued porn is both horrible and hilarious! Horrilarious?

I think it’s pretty obvious that these chuckleheads don’t view self-pleasuring as sex. I don’t know what they do think of it as, but to them, rubbing one out is definitely not proper sex.

Aside from that, I think I know what you’re getting at; at the end of the day, incels, MRAs, MIGTOW, and PUAs are still pretty much interchangeable in that they think they should be entitled to a female person in their sad lives to treat like crap.

It’s almost like the idea of a happy woman infuriates them! ;p

ryeash
ryeash
4 years ago

all the women will finally mature and chase u since u will be a rich doctor

C’mon man, I already about busted a rib laughing at an old white dude who called me racist for pointing out the fact that he’s an old white dude. Go easy on me.

I am counting down the days til my 30th, when my invisibility cloak will kick in, and none of these creepy fucks will bother me again for the rest of my life.

…that’s how it works, right? Please tell me that’s how it works.

Dr. Thang
Dr. Thang
4 years ago

@Dan Kasteray

Yeah, same here. I was bullied constantly, but it never made me an entitled crybaby or want to take it out on everyone else. It definitely effected me in ways that I don’t always realize, but I don’t even hold a grudge against any of them. The way I see it, we were all just dumb kids, I did my fair share of dumb things that I wouldn’t do today, and I guarantee none of them would treat me like that today either.
Everything about the mentality of these incels baffles me. By all measures, I should sympathize with them, because I’ve had to live the same way. None of them can say I don’t understand what they’re going through, I couldn’t get a girlfreind to save my life and apparently still can’t, and I’d bet my literal ass that I’ve been worse off than most of them and have more reason to be bitter and frustrated and hate women, but I simply don’t, because it’s just not rational. I’m not a victim, women aren’t to blame for my failures, they don’t owe me a goddamn thing. I see these “incels” as exactly as pathetic as the rest of us see them, if not moreso, despite being just as much of a failure in life, because that’s just my objective observation.

Wetherby
Wetherby
4 years ago

Over the last thirty years, I’ve had multiple sexual partners ranging from late teens to early fifties.

The best? The four who were forty and up. Absolutely no question.

These so-called “incels” are so obsessed with the notion that their partners have to be young and somehow “untainted” that they ignore the fact that they’re actually much more likely to have the kind of wild, uninhibited and pretty much effortless sex that they so obviously desperately crave with someone who’s already been around the block a few times and who consequently knows her body extremely well and knows exactly what she wants.

I still remember switching from a 21-year-old to someone fully twice her age. Mind blown. (And quite a few other things besides.) That was a full 25 years ago, and the youngest person I’ve slept with since then was 35. In other words, I’ve been doing the precise opposite of what these people advocate, and I have absolutely no complaints: I’d gladly do everything the same way all over again.

Bryce
Bryce
4 years ago

It’s surprising that David would offer some well-intentioned advice to those who refer to other people as “cum buckets”.

According to one of the few studies around this there’s something like 50% more adult male virgins, which is likely due to societal norm for men to initiate; Those who are socially awkward, lack social skills, or have easily observable bitter hangups effectively count themselves out by not approaching or doing so in ways that are inappropriate. That’s more than can be addressed in a few therapy/counseling sessions.

Some self-examination and change of attitude might at least make them less obnoxious human beings, help them find a few genuine friends, etc. That’s pretty much my experience.

Flora
Flora
4 years ago

I know this is the mildest of all the fantasies here, but rich doctor at 30?? Assuming you take the fastest possible route and do 2 years of undergrad and med school you are 24 when you graduate, plus a minimum of two years of residency. At this point you have ~$200,000 in student loans by the time you’re 26 and working, and family docs (the only 2 year program) will be able to pay that off in 3-4 years if they live frugally, work tons and have no clinic expenses. Even in the BEST case scenario you’re looking at 35. I won’t even finish my specialization until I’m 35, I’m hoping to be actually paying off debt that isn’t student loan debt in my mid 40s…

Oh but right women are less educated, I forgot.

Kat
Kat
4 years ago

OT — and horrifying.

TW for rape

Raped, beaten, exploited: the 21st-century slavery propping up Sicilian farming

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/mar/12/slavery-sicily-farming-raped-beaten-exploited-romanian-women

TW for rape

Bina
4 years ago

@Kat:

If any woman ever expressed an interest in a relationship with an incel, he’d probably collapse from the excitement.

Then — once he picked himself up off the floor — he’d ruin the relationship. Destroying a relationship doesn’t take long, maybe a minute or two.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLnWf1sQkjY

“Buuuuuut, you’re a FAT CHICK*! You’ve HIT THE WALL**! Also I just wet myself! Get away from me, you SLUT***!”

That’s how I picture it, anyway. How many seconds does that work out to?

* “Fat chick” = anyone with a double-digit dress size. Even the LOW double digits.

** “Hit the wall” = anyone who’s out of her teens, apparently. Even if only just.

*** “Slut” = anyone who gives him a boner, which he can’t handle and it makes him mad so he immediately projects all his “dirty” feelings onto her.

AsAboveSoBelow, Male Gaze Harvester
AsAboveSoBelow, Male Gaze Harvester
4 years ago

You know, sometimes I forget just how much they hate us. Then I see something like this and I feel sad, sick, and repulsed.

Bina
4 years ago

@ryeash:

I am counting down the days til my 30th, when my invisibility cloak will kick in, and none of these creepy fucks will bother me again for the rest of my life.

…that’s how it works, right? Please tell me that’s how it works.

Sadly, no. I still get catcalled at 49. Not as often as at 19, mercifully. But it happens. Even in the dead of winter, when I’m bundled up to my eyeballs, it happens. And I’m either so inured to it or have so much better control of my face at this age that I don’t even wrinkle my nose at them anymore. Even though all my innards are screaming “WTF? I thought I’m supposed to be PAST all this shit!”

Bina
4 years ago

@Wetherby:

I still remember switching from a 21-year-old to someone fully twice her age. Mind blown. (And quite a few other things besides.)

That made me guffaw loud enough to scare the cat. Thanks!

Ray of Rays
Ray of Rays
4 years ago

Huh. It’s like a more overtly-hateful version of the wizard meme.

And now I need to scrub my brain clean, because my girlfriend and I, after some years, finally realized the level of physical compatibility and emotional trust needed to have sex mere months before our thirtieth birthdays…and the idea of doing anything that might meet this jackwagon’s approval makes me feel profoundly unclean.

Her Grace Phryne (brave, not strong)
Her Grace Phryne (brave, not strong)
4 years ago

@IgnoreSandra: Being Aspie doesn’t doom you to being alone forever. My (amazingly awesome) girlfriend is Aspie, and two of my best friends are Aspie (one diagnosed, one probable) and married to each other. I’m ADHD, which affects a lot of the same areas of the brain as Asperger’s/autism, so I get along with them *great*. It’s really nice having someone who gets how your brain works!

Then again, I’m gonna be 39 this year, so maybe it just takes a while for neurodiverse people to figure out who they are and fight cultural pressures to act like neurotypical people.

And also, obviously, I’m post-wall or whatever. Like I care. 😛

Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

@IgnoreSandra
What Her Grace said.Hubby and I are both on the spectrum, and so’s his girlfriend. And I’ve got a wonderful fella who’ neurotypical as well.

@Her Grace Phryne
I’ve encountered some fairly compelling arguments that ADHD (and OCD), may in fact be part of the autism spectrum.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
4 years ago

@Dali

And I’ve got a wonderful fella who’ neurotypical as well

=^_^= Love you, darlin! <3

I'm 25 and a raging virgin. The virginity is raging, I mean. But I never got angry that I wasn't getting any. Sad, sure, but never mad. Then, I figured out that I'm some kinda ace (I found the word 'ace' years later, and began identifying as such a while after that). Didn't make my 'incel' years any easier, and definitely didn't mean I felt any less like I was missing out

Cos it was never about getting girls to fuck me, it's about what I felt I should do and have. Not what they owed me but what I owed myself. From what others have said, that seems to be the main diff. People who are accepting of their virginity/celibacy, or who aren't but turn that negativity inwards, don't end up like these assholes. The latter is still nonsense tho

Long story short, I got older, learned about myself and the world, and I'm finally, entirely secure in my lack of a sex life. Well, almost entirely. Lotsa bullshit, macho social programming, and that shit don't go away overnight. Still, can confirm, my teen years weren't the prime of my life. Nowadays, I'm content, wiser, and a far better, more complete human being. I've also now got a special ladyfriend, who's everything these muffugas think themselves too good for. Turns out, gals might be into you if you're not a shit. And, if you're not a shit, you'll be OK if gals aren't into you. Win win, fellas!

IgnoreSandra
IgnoreSandra
4 years ago

@Her Grace & Dalillama:
Yeah, I know I’m not doomed to be alone. I’ve made a lot of great friends since really coming to terms with my diagnosis, and I asked a girl out a few months ago…and had a lovely conversation with her about the nature of her personal journey instead of the hard no I was expecting. She told me to ask her again in the summer cause she’d made a commitment to be single for a solid year.

I find it’s a lot easier to make friends and connect with people online, which I really adore living at a point in history where that is possible. Also, musicals. Love those <3

Plus, I don't know if "doomed to be alone" is really a thing. I'm just fine on my own, even if I occasionally want to share my loneliness with others 😛

That's the critical difference I'm noting between me and the incels here, and also the migtoes. They might or might not pretend to be fine alone, but they're not.

Guest
Guest
4 years ago

‘John F. Kennedy donated all but $1 of his salary as president ($100,000) to charity. He also donated his salary to charity when he was a senator.’

I did not know that!

misophistry
misophistry
4 years ago

I had a three year dry spell in my 20s during university. Don’t know why, but i got desperate enough to make a plentyoffish profile. It’s mostly fun but everyone on it seems to be in it for the no-strings shag.

However since passing the wall/carousel its been a wall to wall love-fest culminating in marriage to a kind and decent man.

I only post this because it seems so different to what the incels think life is like after 30 and yet it is my lived experience. Also I like to boast about my lovely husband as often as pos.

rugbyyogi
rugbyyogi
4 years ago

A recent article in Elle magazine about one particular incel ‘leader’ (?)

http://www.elle.com/life-love/sex-relationships/a33782/involuntary-celibacy/

Because he feels psychologically younger than his age, he says he’d like to date younger women whose contact with the opposite sex more closely matches his own. “I wanna feel like we’re doing it in the beginning, or somewhat close to that.”

But why, I wonder aloud, would a woman necessarily need to be younger than him to have a similar level of experience?

“I’d be too suspicious,” he replies. “How come no guy wanted to date you?”

I can’t quite believe what I’m hearing. This is Manosphere 101: the exact type of myopic, double-standard nonsense that I’d thought—or allowed myself to believe, in pursuit of a tidy redemption narrative—that Michael was working past, or had put behind him.

With guys, he goes on, he understands longtime celibacy. They’re the ones who have to do the asking, put themselves out there. But women? “If you’re attractive enough for me to want to date you, there’s gotta be a reason someone never showed any interest in you. Or maybe someone did show interest and you didn’t reciprocate. And then I would question what your values were.”

misophistry
misophistry
4 years ago

Thanks for the link the the elle article! It’s interesting to see how the uninitiated first respond to MGTOW logic.

Continuing to bang on about my nice guy husband I should note that I actually friendzoned him during my dry spell. But things, and people can change, so now we’re married. I thought noone ever gets out of the friendzone?

misophistry
misophistry
4 years ago

Now I’ve read that elle article I feel a little sorry for the guy who runs love-shy, who sounds like a very sad anxious fellow. Although I note that he applies a double standard for older female virgins (“I would be suspicious”) which reduces the case for sympathy a little. Many things on the internet start with good intentions, but end with a shit-show.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ rugbyyogi

Thanks for that link. I still find that “We know more about women than anyone else; including women” attitude bewildering but fascinating.

“The bulk of my anger is over the fact that virtually all women are dishonest to the point that even they themselves believe the lies they tell.”

Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
4 years ago

On video games and misogynists : Gamergate is what happens when they slowly start realizing that they’ve never been in control of the narrative, and that the people who are in control aren’t as friendly to them as they used to be.

I don’t think they were enabled by how it used to be. I mean, I’m in my mid-20s, have been exposed to media for my whole life (started reading pretty young) and got my first console at age 7 – we’re talking deep exposure here, so deep that it all effectively crystalized into my passion for writing.

And I was the bullied kid for long, long years too – and weirdly, at some point in high school I became one of the popular kids somehow, mainly on account of having been acquainted with booze and drugs a long time before that, and suddenly landing in an environment where it was glorified and I didn’t feel like I had to hide it anymore. Guess what ? It solved nothing. I was still as miserable as I’d ever been. But I was often the only one left miserably standing at 5am, and that counts for something, apparently.

Sexual life wasn’t exactly grand either. First time age 12 in nerve-rattling and heart-wrenching circumstances, at a time where I was looking for love, not sex. 14 to 16, I still only cared for sex as a way to get some human warmth if not love, and I got lots of it – and boy was it warm, and fuzzy, what with all the booze and drugs, again. Livin’ the dream, huh. All the while desperately in love with someone who didn’t wanna speak to me for the better part of those years.

First ever relationship at age 17, and it was a loveless catastrophe that dragged on for a year and ended very badly. I only wanted what everything since my birth had been telling me I should want (and deserved) and predictably it only led to more pain.

Then three months of bliss, happiness, love, whatever, around the time I turned 19. That was what I’d been looking for, in a way – not what I’d been taught to expect, but what truly made me happy. Had even found somewhere I belonged, which was big and new for me. It ended in another catastrophe, and then it’s back to depression. Been like that for the past five years and a half, and it led to one heck of a dry spell, barely interrupted a few times is all. Mainly, when the LDR I ended up in got much closer-distance for all of two weeks (so I went to the US for the first time in my life and did literally zero sight-seeing, went through San Francisco and didn’t even see dat bridge) and huh, also those two times when I cheated because I was a fucking idiot, the “poly but doesn’t wanna accept it” kind of idiot. Complete absolute dry spell since the break-up. Or maybe since therapy, since those two happened in succession, for a reason that I totally can’t fathom at all. (I’ve mentioned before what “therapy” looks like in this country). Oh and of course, total isolation during all that time, and it’s still going.

So hey, here’s my run so far, in a nutshell. I’m 24 and all of the pain has something to do with one woman or another. Recipe for misogyny, huh ? And I ain’t even mentioned the asshole father yet : well, he’s the nastiest example of a misogynist I’ve ever seen in meatspace, and with the places I’ve been, I’ve seen a lot of nasty ones. He’s also a manipulative fuck with a knack for convincing people he’s the smartest, coolest, kindest guy around – effectively sets himself as an example and his traits very easily rub off on people.

So then tell me how come I ain’t incelling all over Reddit yet.

I’m sure there’s a recipe for incels, and I’m sure that those ingredients are part of it. I just don’t think it’s enough, and there’s gotta be something wrong with the pot too. Otherwise you get fucked-up specimens like me and mine, but at least we aren’t as creepy.

‘kay, I’m done rambling. I’ma huh go back to my business of playing video games and not being too much of a raging asshole about my love and sex life.

rugbyyogi
rugbyyogi
4 years ago

@Alan Robertshaw

Most humans are self-deceiving to some extent. But to blame an entire gender smacks more of projection than any kind of reflection or self-awareness.

Her Grace Phryne (brave, not strong)
Her Grace Phryne (brave, not strong)
4 years ago

@Dalilama: I’m leaning more toward that theory myself. Do you have any links? I’d love to read what actual *trained* scientists are discovering! Beloved and I were actually discussing last night how she likes that I’m direct and upfront about things, and I reminded her that I have told her that I miss subtlety; in fact, when we first got together, it took me a couple of weeks to realize she liked me *like that*. It would have been easier to put it on a billboard than to hint around and hope I’d pick up on it!

@IgnoreSandra: Yeah, that was poor phrasing on my part, sorry. But very cool about the girl, and good luck! That sounds like a really neat conversation, and also encouraging. 🙂

occasional reader
occasional reader
4 years ago

Hello.

So, as someone (Weirdwood treehugger, i think) already pointed it out, “involuntary celibacy” is an antinomy as, according to dictionnary and wikipedia, celibacy is, i quote, “the state of voluntarily being unmarried, sexually abstinent, or both”. You can have artistic license for some antinomies (like “clair-obscur”), but from what i read, redditers are hardly recognized as poets or meaningful writers, essayists or the like. So associating involuntary to celibacy is as relevant as saying something like “the good music of Jul” (well, i am biased here, spank me).
And, as the definition says it, you can still be celibate and have sexual relations, as it is not mandatory for the vow (except in some religions, with chastety vow). Mind you, due to the slowness to authorize marriage for all, there are many couples where the partners can not or do not want to marry and thus stay celibate. So, even for the main term of the expression, those redditers are not even right in its usage.

I studied and worked my ass off (with ZERO help from ANYONE) from 13-30

If, from 13, you did not have parents, i am sorry for you. On the other case, it is unlikely you had no benefit from at least their house, and maybe food and other commodities. So you are your own ZERO, disgrateful asshole (even worked off).

Have a nice day.

Lysistrata
Lysistrata
4 years ago

This aspect of manospherianism is what cracks me up the most.

Here’s how ancient I am: if I had had a child when I “hit the wall” she would have “hit the wall” by now. I am so old that the terrorists would rather surrender than have sex with me. I am so old that a MGTOW would either pity me for not being dead, or be mad at me for using up oxygen.

(chuckles)
Although I am old, fat old, have two cats and some purple in my hair, and did I mention I’m old, (and though, as my nym suggests, I screen out political undesirables) my sex life is highly satisfactory and would almost certainly flip out the incels.

Even more shocking, it is not the most important part of my life, doesn’t take a lot of time, and does not drive any other life choices. (That is a broad hint to any manospherians reading: Dude – get a life!)

Alas, “the wall” does not keep assholes from hassling a woman. The content gets less “flattering” and more negative but it feels exactly the same. Because it was never about attraction, or about “complimenting” her/me. It’s an exercise of power.

_____

I keep imagining a female-positive erotic video of the cock carousel. Maybe animation… I have no graphic skills though. Anybody wanna collaborate?

Jesalin
Jesalin
4 years ago

The whole direct/blunt speech thing is one trait I don’t have and never did (kinda*), to my knowledge anyway. I heard “think before you speak” a lot when I was a kid and always mentally inserted ‘or you’re gonna get a smack (or at least yelled at)’. So maybe I was just trained out of it.

*I generally think it but don’t say it.

I’m hoping to know for sure soonish (by mid-July) if I’m on the spectrum, I’m pretty sure I’m Aspie (and the online tests I’ve done think so too).

Weird (Encouraged by the RESISTANCE!!!!) Eddie
Weird (Encouraged by the RESISTANCE!!!!) Eddie
4 years ago

It’s like they got their world view from a 1960’s underground comic…

@ Dan Kasteray

I just want to say this as someone who was bullied as a kid.

Thanx, I appreciate that. I, too, developed a very emotionally satisfying sense of empathy, particularly for people who are bullied (which, IMO is a helluv a lot of people)

@ Lysistrata

I am so old that the terrorists would rather surrender than have sex with me.

*hyuck 😉 *

ETA: just fyi, I’m so old that a woman “hits the wall” at an age just shy of my son’s age… and dating the women that these people think I should be after would be hitting on my granddaughter’s classmates….

Her Grace Phryne (brave, not strong)
Her Grace Phryne (brave, not strong)
4 years ago

@Jesalyn: Oh, I was trained out of it, but it’s not natural for me to be subtle, so it’s difficult. I usually either don’t say anything, or when I do, I try to make it as nice as possible *for me*. I refer to a lot of it as my “public face”, which is exhausting, and I’m at the point where I just don’t care so much anymore, so I’m starting to break out of that even in public a little.

Ellesar
Ellesar
4 years ago

My sons are 17 and 21 and both virgins (I just know this – honestly it is not some weird dominant mother thing!) and they are comfortable with that. I believe that that is because they do not experience peer pressure and are not vulnerable to the type of media that makes young people feel bad for not having a sexual partner.

I am generally neutral about it, but a little glad, as my sexual experiences as a teen left me with a burning hatred of a particular man. I know that they are unlikely to have the same experiences, but I feel that being a bit older is better – you know yourself better, and have more confidence and better self esteem.

To assess yourself as some kind of failure because you didn’t have sex in your teens is really pathetic. You must be far too fixated on it for it to be just a simple case of sexual frustration. As I said before, actual sexual pleasure and intimacy does not even seem to be a part of it.

I know that as a teen girl I was desperate for the social approval that having a bf brought, and unfortunately the boys/ men I was with expected sex and I had been brought up by a non feminist but extremely liberal mother whose attitude to sex was open, but unfortunately very poor on dealing with men assertively.

Gussie Jives
Gussie Jives
4 years ago

Just to chip in my story, I too am one of those guys who found that therapy was a great help to finding a sense of self-esteem. I suffered from depression and combined with some really toxic classmates at college, it just left me feeling really down on myself for not “getting laid” and being a virgin at 20. I alternated between hatred for my (in retrospect) misogynist classmates and myself for not being able to fit in with them. But over time, I learned that it wasn’t healthy to dwell on such things and focused on what made me feel comfortable in my own skin and went from there.

I find myself paraphrasing that that exchange in Real Genius where Chris Knight explains to Mitch that he had been in Mitch’s position before and spent three years dressed in white shirts and Hush Puppies ensuring a girl would never talk to him. While they were talking about academics, it’s a fair point that these guys feeling like they’re “losers” for being virgins really are suffering from the same self-esteem issues that a lot of us have and we’ve all been there to varying degrees.

I think that’s what bothers me the most about the whole “incel” concept: it describes the very real sense of adolescent and young adult awkwardness and confusion and questioning that all young people have, but then twists it into something really dark and awful and it just leaves these vulnerable guys stewing in anger and hate. Not sure how many Mammotheers are familiar with Wizardchan, but picture a 4chan for self-described “incels.” It’s as depressing as it sounds.

Part of me wishes the internet was more sophisticated when I was in school, cuz Dr. Nerdlove would have helped immensely.

Jesalin
Jesalin
4 years ago

@Her Grace Phryne

@Jesalyn: Oh, I was trained out of it, but it’s not natural for me to be subtle, so it’s difficult. I usually either don’t say anything, or when I do, I try to make it as nice as possible *for me*.

Much like me then, although at home I get to drop some of the ‘nice’. My partner, much like me, has a low tolerance for jackasses.

I refer to a lot of it as my “public face”, which is exhausting

I just flat out call it what it is, my ‘public mask’. It’s a bloody huge drain on my energy, between portraying myself as being ‘calm, cool and collected’ with a hint of ’emotionally dead’ and large helping of ‘polite’ (ie. don’t call a jackass a jackass, and remember that other people exist) and some serious social anxiety, I barely ever go out unless I absolutely have to.

Her Grace Phryne (brave, not strong)
Her Grace Phryne (brave, not strong)
4 years ago

Oh, no, with my Beloved, I drop all pretense of “nice”. Which is nice. Neither of us has much tolerance for assholes being assholes.

I hear you on that. I practically became a hermit for a while, but now I’m starting to just go, “Y’know what, this is me. Deal with it.” But I’m also getting to the point of liking who I am and dealing with a bunch of bullshit baggage from the past, so it might just be that I’m tired of pretending for people who don’t care.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Because he feels psychologically younger than his age, he says he’d like to date younger women whose contact with the opposite sex more closely matches his own. “I wanna feel like we’re doing it in the beginning, or somewhat close to that.”

But why, I wonder aloud, would a woman necessarily need to be younger than him to have a similar level of experience?

“I’d be too suspicious,” he replies. “How come no guy wanted to date you?”

I can’t quite believe what I’m hearing. This is Manosphere 101: the exact type of myopic, double-standard nonsense that I’d thought—or allowed myself to believe, in pursuit of a tidy redemption narrative—that Michael was working past, or had put behind him.

With guys, he goes on, he understands longtime celibacy. They’re the ones who have to do the asking, put themselves out there. But women? “If you’re attractive enough for me to want to date you, there’s gotta be a reason someone never showed any interest in you. Or maybe someone did show interest and you didn’t reciprocate. And then I would question what your values were.”

At least he admits he’s immature and that’s part of why he wants a young woman. Then he keeps talking and all hope of self awareness goes out the window.

What’s funny is that he’s mad that a woman his age might have turned down everyone else who propositioned her but would be willing to have sex with him. Wouldn’t it be flattering that she was waiting for the right person and it was him? Wouldn’t that boost the low self esteem he whines about?

These guys are very good at getting people to feel bad for them. At first. To outsiders they claim they’re not misogynistic, they’re just nice guys who are socially awkward and unable to find a partner. But if you look at their forums and blogs, they say some pretty misogynistic and sometimes terrifying things to each other. As much as they try to put a good face on when they venture from their online spaces, it doesn’t take much prodding to get them to reveal their misogyny and entitlement. I’ve seen a number of sad boner trolls both on this site and others and it’s always the same with them.

Notice how the “incel” is not so much involuntarily celibate as voluntarily celibate. This guy has closed himself off to just about any potential partner. He doesn’t want anyone with experience. He doesn’t want anyone with no experience that isn’t very young. I’d be almost scared to ask just how young he’s going for here. He doesn’t want anyone who isn’t “attractive.” I’m by no means saying that someone should feel obliged to have sex with someone they aren’t attracted to but when he phrases it like this

If you’re attractive enough for me to want to date you, there’s gotta be a reason someone never showed any interest in you.

It’s all about how other perceive his partner, not whether or not he personally finds her attractive. If other guys aren’t chasing her, if she’s not a trophy, he’s not into her.

So, he’s backed himself into a corner. The only partner he wants is a beautiful young virgin that other men are interested in but hasn’t turned down too many men either. The chances of finding this diminish considerably with each passing year because unless young women have really changed since I was that age, 18 or 19 year old women don’t tend to be into being creeped on by men old enough to be their fathers. Women are still often naive at that age, but since we start getting street harassment as soon as puberty hits, we tend to be able to suss out if a guy is just a creep who’s scared of women his own age and trying to perv on all the young women.

Honestly, this guy kind of scares me because even women in the 18-25 year old range can’t really fulfill his criteria. Conventionally attractive young women tend to have plenty of chances to have sex during high school and therefore a lot of women who are young but still consenting adults don’t fit his criteria. It’s really only going to be 14 or 15 year olds who fit his demands. I really home he doesn’t start preying on kids to get rid of his “involuntary” celibacy.

Now because I’m morbidly fascinated by the whole incel thing, I’m going to read the rest of the article and see if there’s anything else I can pull apart.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

For several weeks, I’d checked in on love-shy.com almost daily, and much of what I read there was blithely misogynistic—nothing as extreme as what Rodger posted, but pretty dark. Michael claims to think so, too. So why is the site still there?

“I don’t know,” Michael says again, then looks me in the eye. “Do you think I should shut it down?”

So, he claims to think the site is too misogynistic, but won’t shut it down or at least ban misogynistic talk. Two options here. Either he agrees with the misogyny and just won’t say it aloud to the (overly sympathetic IMO) reporter. Or he just has no sense of self awareness or personal responsibility whatsoever. It could be a combo of both.

Looking back now, Michael blames his inability to read signs. His one high school girlfriend, with whom he’d lost his virginity, completely drove their relationship. “She started kissing me,” Michael recalls, obviously still a little proud. Afterward, he assumed that’s what a girl would do if she really liked him—make the first move.

Even when he got strong evidence that someone was into him—one night, a young woman he’d gone to the movies with came back to his room and climbed into bed with him—he couldn’t be absolutely sure, and so he demurred, despite his attraction to her. “Maybe I was wrong, I don’t know. Maybe she didn’t want me to kiss her,” he says, bemused by his younger self’s naïveté yet still discouraged by his failure to know. “I really have no idea.” He sighs.

So he didn’t want to make any move and when he did get an opportunity he didn’t take it. As someone who is a bit shy and awkward when it comes to dating, I completely understand this. I’ve often not a made a move when I wanted to or not known how to just simply start a conversation with someone I’m attracted to. So I’m not judging his awkwardness and shyness here.

What I am judging is that even though it’s pretty clear that the problem is with him and he knows it, he’s chosen to spend his entire adult life judging women for not fixing all his problems and encouraging thousands of other young men to do the same.

When he found love-shy.com during college, it was because he’d been Googling for tips about relating to women. Back then, the site consisted of little more than a downloadable copy of a 701-page, out-of-print 1987 book called Shyness and Love. Its author, a fringe social psychologist named Brian Gilmartin, had spent years traveling the country, interviewing 300 unhappily virginal men between the ages of 19 and 50 and looking for causes and cures for the condition he dubbed “love-shyness.”

Interesting how it doesn’t even seem like he attempted to interview unhappily virginal women. It’s so gross. Even from the start, the incel movement has taken the view that women are objects to be won. As objects, we can’t possibly feel shyness or insecurity or have troubles with dating and sex that distress us. And it never occurs to them to connect these attitudes with their troubles with women. Seriously. How are you going to connect with a woman if you don’t see her as fully human?

Michael took to visiting daily. “The website was sort of my therapy,” he says, the one place he felt free to say certain things and know that people would listen. There was lots of male ranting, but the users seemed to understand the need to rant sometimes.

What need does going on misogynistic rants even fill? It’s clearly not helping them. He’s using the term therapy very loosely here. Why it’s almost like they don’t want help overcoming their anxiety around dating and sex and just want an excuse to go on misogynistic rants.

In its way, Michael insists, the discussion forum was a “very accepting sort of community.”

Unless you’re a woman with problems finding a partner and you go to a loveshy forum seeking support and instead find virulent misogyny. Or unless you’re a gay man with problems finding a partner and all the focus on how women are denying incels their due completely erases his own experience and issues.

Adult virginity and celibacy are infrequently studied, but the available data suggests that a near equal percentage of American men and women go through life sexless. In the 15–24 age bracket, it’s 27.2 percent of men and 28.6 percent of women, according to a survey conducted between 2006 and 2008 by the Centers for Disease Control. In the 25–44 bracket, the figures plunge but remain close together: 1.3 percent of women, 1.6 percent of men.

None of this is to suggest that women are happy to go without sex: In a 2010 analysis of a 2002 CDC survey, 92.4 percent of 15- to 44-year-old female virgins said they experienced sexual desire and did not consider themselves asexual—virtually the same percentage as their male counterparts.

Hey, good news incels. There are women who are “icel” too! Perhaps if the forums were to become less misogynistic and more woman-friendly we might get some love matches between male and female love shy people who have so much in common!

Such information is discounted, if not utterly ridiculed, however, on love-shy.com

Well, I’m just so shocked to hear that!

See incels, this is why people say – rightly, so – that you’re doing this to yourself.

On one of the site’s forums, there’s a notice thread at the top welcoming women: “If you’ve come to LS.com because you think you are LS or incel yourself, tell us your story in good faith, and don’t expect any special treatment by virtue of being female (no ‘pussy pass’), and don’t be surprised if we tell you what we think, not what you want to hear. Lastly, don’t be surprised by the extreme replies you may receive.”

See. This is why I have absolutely no sympathy for incels and no one else should either. They complain that they can’t connect with women and then go out of their way to drive off any women who may be willing to connect with them.

While Michael says the vitriol and indignation are misguided at best—”By becoming resentful, you’re not going to endear yourself to many women. I may have some of the same feelings, but I deal with them”—he doesn’t think love-shy.com should necessarily make itself more open to women. Women may have sex and dating travails, he says, pointing to how their “value, or perceived value, comes down to how attractive they are.” But their situation is so different from men’s that it would be “hard to have male and female people in the same place, getting along. Just too different.”

Oh please. We aren’t an alien species. We’re all just human. If you don’t think you can talk to women, even ones who have similar life experiences to yours, you are never going to stop being incel. Anecdotal, I know. I’m not sure this has ever been studied. But in my experience, the hetero men who do the best dating and sex wise tend to be the men who don’t view women as an other. They tend to have female friends and acquaintances and are willing and able to talk to us whether or not they want us as partners. Really. How do they expect to get a girlfriend if they think we’re so bizarre and mysterious they can’t even have a conversation with us!

I read through the whole article waiting to hear what Michael wants in a partner and never saw anything except that comment about youth and virginity. Nothing about the personality type he finds attractive. Nothing about similar interests and similar perspectives on politics and religion. He mentions sports and hiking as interests but doesn’t mention wanting to find someone who is into those things and also sexually attractive to him. It’s just young and hot. That’s all he cares about. Even the highly sexist and problematic manic pixie dream girls that are all over the movies have more to them than that as one dimensional as they are.

Sorry for the tl;dr. Like I said, I find incels morbidly fascinating. They’re just so infuriating because as someone who has some stuff in common with the “loveshy,” I know their attitudes are so toxic and self defeating. The fact that I’ve been there and didn’t respond with hate and entitlement is why I have just no sympathy for them.

ryeash
ryeash
4 years ago

@Bina

Crud. No invisibility cloak at all? You’re sure? 🙁

Also, all I could think when I read this:

Even in the dead of winter, when I’m bundled up to my eyeballs, it happens.

…was some dude leaning out his car saying “Hey baby” and you standing there like

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/39/3986085418874f6535854ac97af89db3dc2b259b2c40af471ce031f11ab9a81a.jpg

Bryce
Bryce
4 years ago

@weirdwoodtreehugger

The persisting social script for men to initiate and carry the interaction at the formative stage of the relationship can give the impression that women are less interest and making a deliberate choice to remain passive, particularly to those unable to adequately take on that role and unwilling to contemplate the underlying causes.

At almost 38, as far as I could tell no-one has ever hinted at any interest, so I can understand the temptation to wallow, but it’s not really reasonable to think only men have to experience this, especially considering women are all-but openly discouraged from being assertive and asking men out.

Noseflower
Noseflower
4 years ago

So, in my early twenties I went through a pretty long dry spell while it seemed all of my friends were having all the romantic fun in the world. I got pretty bad, very depressed and bitter (though not as worked up as these weird internet people you quote). Thing is, though, I got through it. I grew up. I got over myself. And man oh man do these guys not know what they are missing out on vis-a-vis over 30 sex.

I wish I could convince them to take on a version of Pascal’s Gambit relating to women. Just act as if women are complete human beings, each an individual, who are much more like men than they are different, and after a while they will find out that Holy Shit! It’s true! Just act as if sex isn’t the be-all, end-all of life; it’s just something people who connect on that level can do for fun if they want, and Holy Shit! It’s true!

What do they have to lose? Their horrible internet subculture? I don’t know. Nobody tried talking sense to me when I was down, but I did not have a support group of like minded haters reinforcing my worst thoughts and keeping me from growing out of it.

Nothing happened for me until I moved past the hatred. People in that state are truly unfuckable.

Dr. Thang
Dr. Thang
4 years ago

@weirwoodtreehugger

Damn dude, great comment, I read the whole thing, you totally hit the nail on the head there. I can sympathize with these guys at first because I’m in the same situation, but it all falls apart when they start blaming women and generally being entitled little shits. If I ever had a chance with a girl, which I haven’t, I’d probably be just as clueless and never make the first move, because I don’t even know what a move is or how to make one, but how you can realize that and still place the blame on anyone but yourself completely blows my mind. The only thing more baffling is how they expect any woman to want to be part of their community when you can feel the resentment radiating from that “welcome” message like a fucking quasar.
I don’t consider myself an “incel” because there’s nothing involuntary about my situation, I’m sure there’s something I could do to fix it, I just don’t know what it is or I’m too incompetent to get it right. But for lack of a better term, I’m certain the experience for male and female “incels” is no different, these guys just tell themselves it is so they can continue to blame them for everything. As far as I’ve noticed, the only difference is that women tend to attract a lot of creeps regardless of how they look. But that doesn’t make the situation any different for them, because even though they technically have a chance, they want nothing to do with creeps, just as these male “incels” apparently want nothing to do with a woman over 30. So as far as I’m concerned, the difference between male and female “incels” is like the difference between a 25 year old virgin, and a 25 year old virgin with a swarm of bees following them around. Aside from the whole bee thing, the experience is exactly the same.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I’m certain the experience for male and female “incels” is no different, these guys just tell themselves it is so they can continue to blame them for everything. As far as I’ve noticed, the only difference is that women tend to attract a lot of creeps regardless of how they look.

That sounds right to me.

It comes down also I think to the stereotypes about women being more emotionally intelligent. People who don’t grok that women are human beings always seem to believe that we’re all born knowing how to flirt and otherwise interact with people we are interested in or people who are interested in us. We’re also not supposed to nervous that we don’t look good naked or don’t kiss well because we just have to lie there and passively agree to sexual activity and it’s all good. They also don’t understand that harassment is annoying or threatening. Not flattering.

They also don’t get that there’s a flip side to the expectation that men do the pursuing. Yes, if you ask someone out and get turned down, that’s rejection and it sucks. But if you’re a woman and you’re told your whole life that someday a nice man will sweep you off your feet, and then none even try, that’s a different type of rejection. It means (according to cultural messages) that you were not worthy. If men are “supposed” to pursue us if they are interested, every man who isn’t pursuing us must not be interested.

Bina
4 years ago

@ryeash:

Yup, you pretty much nailed it with only slight exaggeration. I’ve been catcalled while wearing the unsexiest things imaginable. Puffy coat, baggy jeans, Docs, no makeup, hair pulled back in a boring-ass pony. And STILL got some curb-crawler trying to pick me up. Protective coloration, I’m clearly doing it rong.