The incel subreddit is filled with angry dudes who think their inability to convince any human females to have sex with them — their “INvoluntary CELibacy” — is some kind of human rights violation.
Many of these guys aren’t just mad that teen and twentysomething hotties aren’t leaping into bed with them; they’re mad in advance at any hypothetical “post-wall” women who would have sex with them. Because, you see, these bitter fellows imagine that all these women spent their prime hottie years having near-c0nstant sex with other dudes, thus using up all their sexual appeal, or something.
In other words, these guys think sex with any woman over 30 is like eating leftovers that have been quietly rotting away for a week in the fridge.
On the Incels subreddit today, a fellow calling himself jackville07 sets forth his version of this basic thesis:
I have so many questions. First off, why would any woman over thirty possibly want to have sex with a dude who sees her as the sexual equivalent of week-old lasagna sitting in the back of the fridge?
And second, are you aware that having sex with a woman over the age of thirty is not actually the sexual equivalent of eating week-old lasagna sitting in the back of the fridge?
Incel dudes: Here’s the thing. Not everyone starts having sex at a young age. Some don’t lose their virginity until they’re 30 or older — and this includes plenty of women. And very few people out there are having the constant sex you imagine everyone but you is having. Lots of people have dry spells — some of them years long. There are even some “Chads” out there who are, to use your term, “involuntary celibate.”
There’s nothing to be ashamed of, and nothing to be angry about. It’s a part of life, not some plot engineered by the world’s women just to make you miserable.
Here’s the other thing: Incel dudes, as long as you have these attitudes, you are basically unfuckable. No woman — under thirty, over thirty, any age — should have to put up with a guy who hates them so much he’s furious that she’s ever had sex with anyone but him.
If you are able to purge yourself of these toxic ideas about women and sex, you might end up discovering that sex with women over thirty (or forty, or fifty, or OMG even older than that!) can actually be pretty damn awesome? If you get to the point of having sex on a relatively regular basis, enjoy the sex you are having, don’t sit around nursing your bitterness over hypothetical sex you didn’t have when you were younger.
One incel Redditor responded to jackville07 with this nonsense:
I’m sorry you were bullied, dude; no one deserves that. But as for the rest of your comment, well, fuck you. You didn’t “get laid at 18?” Big damn deal. Roughly a third of American males aged 18 and 19 are still virgins. If you spend the rest of your life bitter about the sex you weren’t having at age 18, no woman will ever want to fuck you, including the “chubbies” you’re now begging for sex.
Dudes, stop obsessing over the sex you’re not having. Stop reading the incel subreddit. Go to therapy. Your bitterness and hatred of women is rooted in self-hate; so are your feelings about older women and “chubbies.” Do your best to work through all of these issues. You will become a better person. You will become a happier person. You will become the sort of person women want to have sex with.
Yeah, I vote ban, also. He’s pretty unoriginal.
Yeah, unless he starts talking about catching seagulls, I say block him.
If you believe in evolution, you can’t have it both ways. Our ancestors had to get a lot of important things right on average, generation after generation, to keep the human species in business in a harsh and dangerous world. And that includes getting human sexuality right enough for practical purposes.
OT: First episode of the final season of Samurai jack just came out. Holy stars so much, of everything.
Do the incels make anyone else think of this video? Or is it too adorable to be associated?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENnAa7rqtBM
Mark, I’m a female incel who’s never had sex and I’m 33.
Actually, tbh the older I get the more I realize I’m actually some flavor of ace, but regardless, all throughout my teens and 20s I would have considered myself incel if I knew the term. Also, I am FEMALE. FEMALE. INCEL.
Does it blow your fucking mind?! OMFG. Female virgin at 33! Post wall female who never rode the cock carousel! WTAFBBQ?!?!?!?!
It’s almost like people aren’t owed sex with other people, or something.
@ Mark Plus
“When a sexually unattractive Christian man renounces belief in god because he thinks that will improve his sex life”
I… what? Do people actually do that? I know I sure as hell didn’t renounce Christianity to get laid. Every time I’ve made a major shift in my religious affiliation, it’s come as a result of years of careful consideration and soul searching. My dick did not enter into it (with no disrespect to the Thelemites).
Hey, here’s a thought: Maybe guys who become atheists to get laid don’t get rejected because they’re physically unattractive. Maybe they get rejected because they have all the depth and personality of a puddle in a patio chair.
The supposed ‘wisdom of the ancestors’ you referenced was all about maintaining their own power. It was arrogance, it was greed, and it was all for not, for beneath the urine-soaked ground they yet rot. In other words, they still died, and will be remembered as much for their disgrace as they are for their accomplishments.
‘Name me one guy this has worked for. Give me a real example.’
My ex-husband. My college BFF’s husband. Both attractive good-hearted guys but really fucked-up before therapy, and not really able to adult; both went into therapy (my ex before I met him, my friend’s man after) and became the kind of men women would be proud to be with. So there’s two.
@Ooglyboggles – Spot on, and I love the drawing. Though we never seem to get any closer to getting rid of him.
@PeeVee – Aw, thanks! Feel free to use it wherever needed.
Back to the OP:
See, this is a myth. Generally, chads continue on down the road of privilege either because they were born into it, or they have the necessary bro-traits that help them break into that world. F’rinstance, of my high school class, the vast majority of chads went on to high-level six figure corporate jobs. Some of them did extremely well. No, it isn’t fair, but it’s how the world works.
Adolescent sex isn’t some amazing party that, if you miss out on it, the rest of your life will forever be a letdown. Teenage sex is usually the worst sex of your life, during the most awkwardly cringy physical phase of your life. Teenagers are larval. They’re clumsy, they have acne and braces, their bodies are rapidly changing, they experiment with hairstyles and fashions. Nobody has any idea what they’re doing at that age. OP’s idea of teenaged girls is probably skewed by watching HB9 porn actresses in their mid twenties portray them.
I wonder if he gets outraged when he gets dirty pennies in his change, or is it only women that must live up to his rarefied requirements?
Mark plus what? What does the plus mean? Extra inanity?
Correlation isn’t causation. Most people who don’t have sex until marriage have religious beliefs that oppose divorce as well. It doesn’t necessarily mean having a sexual history makes you an unsuitable partner. That’s so glaringly obvious. Without even reading anything I can guarantee the CDC did not come to the conclusion that sluts make bad wives. This was all the Heritage Foundation twisting the data to make an unfounded assumption. You can’t just show that women with a few partners get divorced, you have to show causation.
You get an F in social studies. It matches nicely with the Fs in biology and home economics that you’ve earned in your previous postings.
I’d also like to know the statistics for men. Are men with 2 or 3 sexual partners more likely to divorce as well? Curious how studies like this about how sex will ruin western civilization or whatever only focus on female sexuality. I wonder why that would be.
WWTH, MArk has clearly not read the excellent CDC data he cites (thanks, Mark, I’m bookmarking that like for further reading!)
Here’s a snippet:
I really, really, really, really don’t get this notion that all women over 30 are all somehow a bunch of deformed hags. Like, seriously, do they really think women rapidly age as if they’re Dorian Gray and their portrait has just been destroyed? ‘Cause, speaking as a 30-something male whose been around plenty of other women around the same age, it doesn’t seem like they’re suffering from a sudden form of progeria – plenty of them look perfectly fine for their age.
Like, take a huge celebrity crush of mine: Alison Brie.
http://vz.cnwimg.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/alison-brie.jpg
I’m not sure how you can say “OH MY GAWD, WHAT A HIDEOUS BEAST!!!” when seeing her. In fact, it’s totally unthinkable to me…
Because they don’t want sex with women, I think, Nick. They want sex with a fantasy that doesn’t exist. The way they (try to) dodge the mockery that far less harmful philias get stung with is by claiming all women are disgusting and below their standards.
Honestly I think both Chad and Beta Male as concepts exist for them so they can put down dudes who can get satisfaction from somewhere other than their philia.
I think these are the kind of guys who’ll say “Pfffft, not that hot” about any female they see (especially celebrity women, who don’t have time to reject them individually) if they think it will make them sound like a Tough Guy.
Also Alison Brie has done comedy and we all know women can’t be funny! Plus <30 I mean ew. (/s)
Is this the one with the thing about eating seagulls? That one was pretty funny. Or is it the one that thinks that being attractive around men is rape? Or were they the same one, I can’t keep track when they keep changing their little names around.
WRT the actual article, its sort of same shit different day with these incels. All of my personal problems are the world’s fault, blah blah… Like, you spent your 20s studying and concentrating on your career, and now you’re mad that you didn’t spend your 20s partying and having casual sex? Sounds like a whole lot of your problem, buddy. They were YOUR 20s, you decided how to spend them, don’t get mad now that women in THEIR 20s get the same right. Like… let’s be honest here, you were socially awkward and nervous about girls, and instead of handling your personal problems and developing the social tools to move past these issues, you just hid in work and stewed in anger about it. Still a whole lot of your problem, bucko!
Like, I would have all the sympathy in the world for these guys if they had a modicum of empathy and awareness. Like, “I have severe social anxiety and difficulty forming relationships, and I’m working on it but therapy is expensive and difficult.” You know, something grounded in reality. That’s fair, and that sucks. But it seems to be this established pattern with a certain type of lonely guy that he uses rage and hatred like a shield against ever doing any personal work or self-examination, and they just simmer and stew and chew on that anger until it’s literally the only response they know how to have to other people, particularly women. It makes it impossible for me to have any sympathy for them.
And while I’d be happy to support better funding for mental health issues of all kinds, and research into solving these problems, all the therapy in the world isn’t going to work until you DECIDE to work on it. If you just want to sit there in your little rage bubble and hate the world, the therapist can’t magic you out of it.
I used to ghost the Wizardchan forums out of fascinated horror, and those guys… it’s sad, but they’re living in a cage of their own creation.
My Dad the misogynist also would probably say that he tried “therapy” as well and that it doesn’t work (since the SYSTEM is against all men and ignores their needs). He went to maybe 2 sessions and took a non-therapeutic level of Zoloft before quitting saying they DIDN’T UNDERSTAND HIM(aka: refused to say that all his problems caused by my mother). In order for therapy to work you need to 1.) Go 2.)take the meds (when applicable).
You also need to have realistic expectations. The idea isn’t to get women to like you through therapy, it’s for you to like yourself enough to stop evaluating your worth based on who you can convince to sleep with you.
I don’t think he’s the seagull eater, is he? Not enough adjectives. But if he is, have you hit the big 330 yet, Miggy? You must have! Happy belated birthday.
NickNameNick, could you maybe read this article and its whole comment thread, thanks?
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2012/04/09/why-i-prefer-small-boobs-isnt-helping/
My missus is 38.
She rocks (both in and out of the bedroom).
Oh these silly little manchildren, and their pitiable, misdirected self-loathing. Grow the fuck up.
Really? Zero help? I mean, not even Wikipedia or something? Because you realize you didn’t invent the entire Internet by yourself, don’t you?
I doubt I’m the first person to say this, but wow, I can’t FATHOM why these guys are having a hard time getting a girlfriend.
“Involuntary celibacy” is like “geriatric baby”, a term that makes no sense. Unless someone put a medieval chastity belt on you, you’re not “involuntarily celibate”, you are just failing, the blame is all on you, it’s that simple, and this is coming from a male 27 year old virgin! Even I think guys like this are laughably pathetic! There’s nothing involuntary about my situation, slavery was involuntary, this is just me sucking, and the same goes for any guy in my situation who isn’t a jain monk or Nikola Tesla. It’s no picnic, but when you have no sense of entitlement, it’s easy to just accept the blame and keep trying, rather than sitting around seething with bitterness about not getting all the sex you deserve because women are evil and can’t see how great you are.
It’s painfully obvious to me that all this shit, the mra’s and mgtow’s and whatever, it all stems from a massive unearned sense of entitlement. So it makes sense that we are seeing so much of this victim complex lately, that’ll happen when society is based around men having all the power for all of history and then they lose a minuscule fraction of that power.
Any man who thinks every 30 year old is wrinkled and saggy has obviously been getting his ideas of women from high-end skincare ads. Not from any acquaintance with actual women.
Also, this whole ‘incel’ thing? I, as a woman, was an ‘incel’ back in art college: desperate to be wanted by a man, ANY man, because I’d been brainwashed (thank you, mother) into believing that if I couldn’t attract one, there was Something Basically Wrong With Me. But strangely, I didn’t want to shoot up the photography class or end up hating men in general; I just turned it all on myself and thought I must be the most loathsome, worthless specimen in existence. I now realise that I was just painfully socially inept (I have what I think may be undiagnosed Asperger traits, although now, in my forties, I’ve learned get-arounds for most of them). But it’s interesting how these ‘incel’ guys react so differently to that situation. Ideas of male entitlement, probably.
Other things Mark Minus doesn’t understand: Evolution. Averages.
One bit of advice you may find useful: Therapy is not about “put in x amount of effort, solve one problem”. It’s kind of like women and sex in that respect. I do not get this insistence on using a vending-machine model for human interaction.
I can’t be too critical of any 18 yo who thinks that a 30 yo is unattractive. At 18, I found 30 yo men to be unattractive. Maybe physically good looking, but unattractive. I now, in general, find 30 yo men to be unattractive – they are too young for me – although late 40s me finds them better looking than 18 yo me did.
What I can be critical about is the concept that women are ‘used up’ by 30. Patently ridiculous. Too many of these guys are sort of stuck at the 18yo them and remain attracted to actual, physical 18yos – who usually, of course, won’t be interested in them.
And yes, they are probably right to point out as Mark Plus has done that a past track record of NO relationship is a bit of a red flag to many potential partners. I wish to fuck I’d seen that red flag. And that is something that therapy probably could help with – by examining one’s own approach to social interactions and views of oneself and other people, one can become a better potential partner of a better potential partner – i.e. not just more fuckable but more lovable.
Plenty of ugly people – inside or outside can get laid – sometimes even people who are ugly inside and outside can get laid with some regularity. But not usually.
Well, Mark Plus, at least I didn’t see you claiming to have any medical knowledge, which is a good thing.
Women do not all hit menopause in their forties. You know, I wish we did, because I had miserable, horrible, very heavy periods into my early fifties. But hey, no such luck. There are variables with this sort of thing.
Also, not all women peak sexually in their twenties. Again, we are not some sort of flesh automaton whose bodies behave predictably. There are variables.
Sadly for dudebros like yourself, female human beings tend not to do things according to your desired plans for us. We are autonomous, and, except for those whose self esteems have been completely destroyed, we have a natural aversion to getting involved with men who express disdain for us.
Since it hasn’t been said yet, I wanted to point out that a lot of this idea of perfect feminity as young as possible seems to stem from the vulnerability and maleability typical of this group with reproduction being the fig leave to cover this little uglyness. One doesn’t need to be capable of dedication to another human being or even self improvement if they can just prey on the still-gullible, play benevolent dictator with a little help from priviledge then impregnate them early to lock them in. Eventually though youth must end and the marriage will most likely dissolve, transforming the guy to the even more bitter women-despising protofascist MRA.
No sex or intimacy when you were 13? Dude, that’s so sad. None at 14 or 15 either? Even sadder.
Jackville, I’m pretty sure you mean “lower paid,” not “lower paying.” But I’m more interested in the fact that you’re devastated that you have to “accept” a “less educated woman.” So in addition to intimacy with a woman, you also value an educated woman? You’re a catch!
How is it that in 2017, men must still experience this anguish?! Governments worldwide need to step up their game and send every man a different hot, compliant babe every 6 months. That’s just science.