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Trump voters: As whiny and self-pitying as Men’s Rights Activists?

Right back atcha, you pieces of crap

Anyone wbo has read this blog for any length of time is well aware how adept Men’s Rights Activists are at convincing themselves (if not necessarily anyone else) that they are the true victims in any given situation.

Indeed, writer and workshopper Warren Farrell, whose books have provided much of the intellectual underpinning of MRA ideology, has argued in complete seriousness that men are victimized by women’s butts. A shapely posterior, you see, has such a hypnotizing power over your typical horny man that young women have what he once called “miniskirt power” over their male bosses at work.

An article in today’s New York Times suggests that many Trump voters are equally adept at painting themselves as the victims — in their case not of butts but of liberal meanies.

It’s an absolute must read. Not because it’s a good article — it’s terrible — but because it is so revealing, not only about Trump voters but also about the strange reluctance of so many in the supposedly liberal press to hold Trump voters accountable for anything they say or do. Indeed, the basic thesis of the piece — titled “Are Liberals Helping Trump?” — is that liberals are being so mean to Trump voters that they’re pushing them even further into Trumpland.

The piece starts with a brief portrait of Jeffrey Medford, a South Carolinian who voted “reluctantly” for the most dangerous man to ever occupy the Oval Office. Trouble is, when he brings this up in any venue also frequented by liberals, they’re like all mean to him.

Mr. Medford should be a natural ally for liberals trying to convince the country that Mr. Trump was a bad choice. But it is not working out that way. Every time Mr. Medford dips into the political debate — either with strangers on Facebook or friends in New York and Los Angeles — he comes away feeling battered by contempt and an attitude of moral superiority.

“We’re backed into a corner,” said Mr. Medford, 46, whose business teaches people to be filmmakers. “There are at least some things about Trump I find to be defensible. But they are saying: ‘Agree with us 100 percent or you are morally bankrupt. You’re an idiot if you support any part of Trump.’ ”

He added: “I didn’t choose a side. They put me on one.”

Uh, dude, you put yourself on the side of an unstable, authoritarian bigot by voting for him. If you didn’t know what you were getting when you voted for him, then you weren’t paying attention. Trump started out his campaign with an explicitly racist attack on Mexican immigrants, and it pretty much went downhill from there. During his campaign, he revealed himself to be a bully and a chronic liar with no understanding of the job he felt he deserved, a man morally and practically unfit to be president.

And now Trump is making good, or at least trying to, on his terrible promises. His only redeeming feature is that he is so ignorant and inept that he’s fucking it up.

Oh, and did I mention that he’s hellbent on taking away the insurance I and literally millions of other Americans depend on for necessary treatment for the chronic health issues that insurance companies like to call “ongoing conditions?”

So, yeah, some of us are a bit testy.

The article’s author, Sabrina Tavernise, sets forth a thesis that more or less mirrors Medford’s self-pitying “argument.”

Liberals may feel energized by a surge in political activism, and a unified stance against a president they see as irresponsible and even dangerous. But that momentum is provoking an equal and opposite reaction on the right.

“Provoking.” I don’t want to sound, you know, mean here, but this is the logic abusers use to blame their victims for their own abusive meltdowns. It’s a kind of argument that seems to come naturally to MRAs, Trump supporters, and Trump-supporter enablers.

In recent interviews, conservative voters said they felt assaulted by what they said was a kind of moral Bolshevism — the belief that the liberal vision for the country was the only right one. 

Assaulted? You know who else feels assaulted? The longtime residents of this country who have been arrested and deported by ICE, including one woman picked up at a courthouse after she complained of domestic abuse. The Muslims held for hours in airports as a result of Trump’s profoundly un-American executive order.

Is it “self-righteous” for those opposed to Trump to point out the actual effects of his bigoted policies?

Protests and righteous indignation on social media and in Hollywood may seem to liberals to be about policy and persuasion. But moderate conservatives say they are having the opposite effect, chipping away at their middle ground and pushing them closer to Mr. Trump.

Again, it’s the logic of an abuser: “You made me hit you!”

“The name calling from the left is crazy,” said Bryce Youngquist, 34, who works in sales for a tech start-up in Mountain View, Calif., a liberal enclave where admitting you voted for Mr. Trump is a little like saying in the 1950s that you were gay.

First, it’s not “a little like” that at all. Second, are you seriously complaining that the left is … calling you names?

I mean, you do remember all of this, don’t you?

I feel just terrible for these people.

Mr. Younquist wasn’t quite so open about his Trump support.

“The only place he felt comfortable wearing his Make America Great Again hat,” Tavernise informs us,

was on a vacation in China. Even dating became difficult. Many people on Tinder have a warning on their profile: “Trump supporters swipe left” — meaning, get lost.

POOR BABY

“They were making me want to support him more with how irrational they were being,” Mr. Youngquist said.

I hate to tell you this, Mr. STEMLOGIC, but that’s not a very rational response at all.

Tavernise weighs in again with her equally stupid opinion. Which is pretty much the same opinion as all the Trump supporters she interviewed.

[I]f political action is meant to persuade people that Mr. Trump is bad for the country, then people on the fence would seem a logical place to start. Yet many seemingly persuadable conservatives say that liberals are burning bridges rather than building them.

How “persuadable” is someone who gets so mad that some women don’t want to date guys they violently disagree with politically that he decides he’s just going to SUPPORT TRUMP EVEN HARDER SO THERE TAKE THAT!!!1!!

But no Trump supporter may have suffered more for her beliefs than Ann O’Connell, a “retired administrative assistant in Syracuse who voted for Mr. Trump” despite being a registered Democrat. (She apparently liked Trump’s promise to build a big old wall to protect her from all the evil Mexicans who are creeping over our southern border and then I guess for some reason creeping all the way up to Syracuse, NY, not far from the Canadian border, where the percentage of Hispanics is far below the national average and which is actually a really terrible place to look for jobs right now.)

Anyway, Ms. O’Connell has suffered mightily for her beliefs. For she can no longer enjoy Meryl Streep movies! You know, because that mean actress lady gave that speech about how shitty it is to mock disabled people.

Mrs. O’Connell feels hopeless. She has deleted all her news feeds on Facebook and she tries to watch less TV. But politics keeps seeping in.

“I love Meryl Streep, but you know, she robbed me of that wonderful feeling when I go to the movies to be entertained,” she said.

BOO HOO HOO

Here’s my question: is it possible that these Trump supporters are feeling so defensive about their vote for president because on some level they know what they did was indefensible?

Or am I just being mean for even asking that question?

H/T — @ParkerMolloy, who posted a couple of the pics I used on Twitter.

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magnesium
magnesium
3 years ago

“Every one is responsible for my actions but me,” cries the uber-rational logic man who votes based on sad feelings about not getting dates.

rugbyyogi
rugbyyogi
3 years ago

I think there are some who are no longer feeling comfortable with how they are voting. All along, throughout the campaign, I urged people not to make irrevocable statements about Trump supporters and to give them every opportunity and the space to back down. But once they voted, they have to take responsibility for what they’ve done to my country and to the world. Now, I’m not full of forgiveness and understanding, I’m full of FUCK YOU.

Still, at some point, we’re going to need their votes to turn around state houses and the Houses of Congress. And I think it is right to give them space to back down.

But I don’t think they’re in the mood to take it.

If you see people protesting against Trump and supporting certain issues (e.g. health care, abortion, same sex marriage, etc) and you feel that this is a personal attack on you then you need to reflect why that is.

And yes, my dating profile does have a no Trump (and no Corbyn) policy on it.

Weatherwax
Weatherwax
3 years ago

But we’re the special snowflakes.

Mortarius
Mortarius
3 years ago

Why is it always the left that has to coddle these voters?

If someone being insufficiently nice to you was enough to make you sign up with an obviously evil dude then hey I’m not sure you were all that righteous to begin with.

Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
3 years ago

My heart bleeds for the people who generation after generation voted for acts to deport my and many others’ ethnic groups.

Let me grab my kiddie gloves so I can give them all a coddle. “There there racist, classist white supremecist nazi lovers, it’ll be okay.”

MexicanHotChocolate
MexicanHotChocolate
3 years ago

What a bunch of whiny babies. They’re as whiny as the Mango Mussolini. They voted for a misogynistic, racist, antisemitic, bigoted quasi-fascist authoritarian. Did they expect a pat on the back? Second, did the so-called author of the so-called article miss Trump going full fascist the other day, calling the news media the enemy of the American people?

hippielady
hippielady
3 years ago

As my daughter would say, “Get the waaaahhhmbulance!”

Laugher at Bigots, Mincing Betaboy

I can’t help thinking that the Venn diagram between Trump voters and MRAs is a pair of concentric circles.

personalpest
personalpest
3 years ago

1. Has anyone ever seen an article asking conservatives to be extra special nice to liberal voters?

2. The people profiled in this article are presumably moderates who don’t see themselves as alt-right extremists. However, the fact that criticism makes them double down on their mistake instead of accepting responsibility says a lot about how “moderate” they really are.

2. So these bitter right-wingers do things we ask them not to do just to spite us? What if we told them to vote for Republicans in 2018 and 2020, or else?

Fabe
Fabe
3 years ago

The Alt-right strike me as the type of people who if they were in a life raft in the middle of the ocean with someone who was afraid of drowning they would start poking holes in the raft.

eli
eli
3 years ago

2. The people profiled in this article are presumably moderates who don’t see themselves as alt-right extremists.

Maybe not so much. I just read this article, where Steve M. poked around on one of the ‘moderate’s’ facebook page:

http://nomoremister.blogspot.com/2017/02/meet-one-of-moderate-conservatives-who.html

Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
3 years ago

The fuck do they want ? A “rational debate” ? Sorry but I ain’t got the time nor the energy for that anymore. Shoulda taken the chance when we were offering it. They never wanted it in the first place, so why should we care that they’re moaning about it now ?

ScarlettAthena
ScarlettAthena
3 years ago

I have zero sympathy. When Obama won back in 2008, a right-leaning neighbor invited my husband and me over for dinner for the express purpose of lecturing us. She told us that we were everything wrong with America and she uttered some of the most racist crap I have ever heard over what was supposed to be a nice dinner. She also bragged about how expensive the food, her dishes, and some renovations to her house were.

There were a few other occasions when right-wing people felt it was good to inform me of how the world really works. I never sought these discussions out, and with the dinner, we weren’t going to discuss politics.

All of the people involved were well-off, über-privileged people who felt that the world didn’t work to their personal specifications and that everyone had to hear about it and try to make the world jus the way they like it.

In a similar vein, I have very conservative family members, and they do not take logical critiques of their positions well. One person began spewing racist stuff, and when I called her on it, she got teary-eyed, and acted like I was a meany-meany.

There was also a friend who posted factually incorrect memes on Facebook. I didn’t try to make it about politics, just the facts: that meme is wrong. She would call me names and sarcastically apologize for causing offense. I tried to tell her I wasn’t offended as a liberal. My fact-loving self was offended. She blocked me. My only point was, be on any political side you want but make sure you’re basing your opinions on the facts.

ScarlettAthena
ScarlettAthena
3 years ago

Sorry for the teal deer. I just can’t any more with people who base all their policy thinking on some made up bullshit, usually steeped in racism, sexism, transphobia, homophobia, islamophobia, and other related bigotries. If you care about your ideas, you should be able to argue them. Fiercely if necessary. It shouldn’t be about your personal feelings.

Elizabeth Regina
Elizabeth Regina
3 years ago

I think David’s right. They know their actions are indefensible, that’s why they are anticipating (without necessarily experiencing) great hostility from those who were aware all along that voting for Trump was an idiotic and malicious choice.

YV
YV
3 years ago

God, “I’m being critized for doing something, so NOW I’M GONNA DO IT EVEN MORE! OUT OF SPITE! NYAH!” is such a childish, petty attitude to have. Say, since these are all voters, they should all be at least eighteen, right? AKA, older than five? Then why the hell can’t they act like it? And why the hell is that our problem?

Sally
3 years ago

David this is fucking gold, thank you!
My inlaws are trump supporters and they feel THE SAME WAY. “Why cant celebrities/SNL give it a rest already, i just want some entertainment without being lectured and told im an idiot” WELL……

And @scarletathena, no trump supporter can base their support on facts. They support trump out of bigotry or selfishness (money), and they can’t be honest about that, so they freak out and make up absolutely ridiculous excuses, like “the left made me, out of spite!”

Moocow
3 years ago

Trump voters spew hatred, act rude on purpose, mock those who have empathy, come up with really offensive slurs for liberals.

Then democrats say ‘you’re an asshole’ and suddenly we’re “just as bad”.

Blatant double standards. One of my co-workers is one of those “both sides are just as bad” clowns, and was disgusted that I argued that I do not respect Trump supporters. “So if I voted for Trump, you wouldn’t respect me?” She asked, to which I responded, “Yes, you would have lost a ton of respect from me if you did”. She had this disgusted look on her face like I just used some bigoted slur. As if choices like that are sacred and not allowed to be criticized.

And what pisses me off even more is how the right wingers now try to take the moral high ground by flat out erasing the past 8 years. “Waaaah, these protestors should just get over it, it’s not like we protested Obama!” “Unprecedented democratic obstruction”.

Reminds me of times when I was a victim of bullying. “Well moocow, he apologized for punching you in the stomach, now you need to apologize for saying he was being mean”.Fuck false equivalency.

Arctic Ape
Arctic Ape
3 years ago

“We’re backed into a corner,”

Trump painted himself and any followers into a corner with that super divisive campaign. Now he’s like, “Don’t be so divisive, you sad losers!”

abars01
abars01
3 years ago

In light of the rhetoric I’ve seen espoused by the right in the past decade (i.e. the Creation Museum, the Westboro Baptist Church, Gamergate, coal rolling, open carry, etc.), it has become abundantly clear to me that they will not be satisfied, and will not cease their shtick, until the 1960s/70s, the 20th century, and the Enlightenment have been repealed, and the western world has been transformed into some Christian Dominionist/White Nationalist/Objectivist/Gorean dystopia. Frankly, I am well past any form of empathy, respect, compromise or reconciliation with them. Their demands are not reasonable, their side and ours are not reconcilable, and they never will be. If I want to regard them as a bunch of dumb rednecks, then so help me, I damn well will.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I’m probably going to rant out a lot of thoughts that may not connect so well. Sorry in advance.

If you actually voted for Trump, you most definitely not a fence sitter anymore. You threw your lot in with him and you have to face the consequences. I thought conservatives liked personally responsibility? As usual, that rule only applies to other people. Never themselves.

a liberal enclave where admitting you voted for Mr. Trump is a little like saying in the 1950s that you were gay.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/04/oh-heeeell-to-the-no.gif

Trump voters are not being beaten or killed. They aren’t denied any civil rights. There aren’t mass amounts of teenage Trump supporters who are homeless because they’ve been kicked out of the house. They aren’t being committed against their will to mental institutions or sent to religious reeducation camps to pray away the Trump.

Fuck you, you overprivileged little tech bro douche.

“Provoking.” I don’t want to sound, you know, mean here, but this is the logic abusers use to blame their victims for their own abusive meltdowns. It’s a kind of argument that seems to come naturally to MRAs, Trump supporters, and Trump-supporter enablers.

Yep. It’s the same protection racked we’ve witnessed from misogynist troll after misogynist here. These wank stains were always pro Trump. They just want to act like they’d oppose the harms the administration has done/will do so they can attempt to manipulate those who oppose Trump into sitting down, shutting and being compliant.

It’s going to do nothing but backfire. We can all see right through this pathetic bullshit.

Has anyone ever seen an article asking conservatives to be extra special nice to liberal voters?

comment image

Here’s a non-comprehensive list of things conservatives have said to me.

Cunt
Feminazi
Baby killer
Shitlib
Libt*rd
You hate America
I’ll pray for you (in that passive-aggressive way that implies the speaker clearly thinks I’m hellbound).
Democrats thought 9-11 was funny
You’re only liberal because you’re young and naive (always said to me by older men, of course).
Been threatened with a dog siccing

That’s what I can think of right this minute. And I’m pretty privileged. As a cishet, white, mainstream looking person who strangers perceive as Christian, I don’t get anywhere near as much verbal abuse for my politics as some people do. A couple of years ago, a gay guy I did door knocking with told me he got called a f*g pretty much every night simply for telling voters that certain candidates were better for labor rights (so much for the notion that people will be nicer to the left if we would only just focus on economic and labor issues).

Still, I’ve never seen any think pieces about how conservatives should be nice to liberals. These weak ass losers crumble after only a few brief months of the left finally deciding to fight fire with fire. These hypocritical little shits need to get the fuck over it because we are still not treating them anywhere near as badly as their ilk have treated us over the years.

PeeVee the (Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Noice) Sarcastic
3 years ago

Fuck, no. I’m tired of it. I’m coddling nobody. I’m done with that shit.

I had to listen to people calling me and the POTUS and my party horrific names, and I tolerated it. I was told, just as many others have been, “Fuck your feelings” (among other things.)

You feel people are looking down at you now because of who you voted for? Welcome to my world for the last eight + years in a political climate YOU assholes fostered.

Guess what, people? Karma is said to be a bitch.

So am I.

I won’t start the argument, but I’ll goddamned well finish it.

Fuck your feelings.

Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
3 years ago

comment image

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
3 years ago

http://i.imgur.com/do9RLzO.gif
I do not care about regretful Trump voters’ feelings. If you were oblivious and bigoted enough to vote for him, only later to find out that maybe your own personal health insurance is more important to you than banning Muslims, you are scum. If you then decide that people not coddling your bullshit is more important than both of those, you are even less

We don’t need these people. Clinton won by 3m votes after Russian interference, FBI sabotage, voter suppression, a moody rapist’s hack tantrum, nonstop media sensationalism, a deluge of hate from frat bro purity squad, dozens of expensive investigations into nothing, and a 20 year campaign to stop the closest woman to actual power from reaching it. 80000 votes in 3 states. We don’t need ‘heartland’ assholes. If brown people get out to the polls in 2 and 4 years and are allowed to vote, the fascists lose. And they know it. Fuck your economic anxiety, and your disingenuous feelings of victimhood too

Hambeast (fan of diversity)
Hambeast (fan of diversity)
3 years ago

My “Boo hoo, poor baby” moment in the article David linked was this

Mr. Youngquist stayed in the closet for months about his support for Mr. Trump. He did not put a bumper sticker on his car, for fear it would be keyed.

I moved from North San Diego County to the Inland Empire 16 years ago with one of those “Coexist” bumper stickers on the shell of my 91 Nissan Pickup. Within three weeks, someone had keyed right through it and tried to pry it off.

Husbeast and I were both Pagan at the time (I’ve since shifted to agnostic) and have been keeping a low profile here ever since. We had to add on a broom closet to the Progressive closet we inhabit here.

Closet inception, Mr. Younquist; your move!

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
3 years ago

Well, their god-emperor is the biggest whiner on the planet, so it’s not surprising that they imitate him.

Thank you, David! I tried reading that article, but quit out of disgust in the second paragraph . . .

JennyWren
JennyWren
3 years ago

Didn’t these guys win? They should be celebrating. But instead, they demand that we celebrate with them?

I’m glad that they don’t feel like they can celebrate. I’m glad we’re sticking in their craw. I’m glad they don’t feel good about this.

Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
3 years ago

@JennyWren
They probably expected us to reject our progressive values and cheer them on just like their not racist sport films/zealotrous media.

PeeVee the (Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Noice) Sarcastic
3 years ago

JennyWren, these people are the sorest winners I’ve ever seen. If it’s possible, they’re whining more, post election.

Some Guy
Some Guy
3 years ago

I mean look. There IS a conservative vision for the future of the United States that’s acceptable. It’s just not being represented in mainstream politics at the moment and we’re getting Trumpism instead.

People are getting “conservative (focus on retaining the things that are going well)” confused with “conservative (what the Republican Party is currently doing)” and as a result when they hear “conservatives are shitty” they are hearing “the idea of a conservative ideology is wrong” rather than “the Trump administration is running the country into the ground”

In general I think the left wing/right wing analogy has broken down. It no longer reflects the broad political ideologies it’s supposed to and has become very specific to Democrats/Republicans, but then when one side is attacked suddenly reverts to the original meaning so that people can claim an attack on Trumpism is an attack on any and all possible conservative ideas

(I should note that conservatism is not my preferred ideology, but I acknowledge that it has a place in the discussion and may in fact be the best thing in some limited cases. The thing I have a problem with is Trumpism)

Cerberus
Cerberus
3 years ago

weirwoodtreehugger-

“These weak ass losers crumble after only a few brief months of the left finally deciding to fight fire with fire. These hypocritical little shits need to get the fuck over it because we are still not treating them anywhere near as badly as their ilk have treated us over the years.”

Yeah, that’s what’s so disgusting about this. These people are receiving the most mild of social consequences for voting for an open fascist and still supporting him despite the fact that he’s incompetent, dangerous, and his edicts are actively hurting and killing people. And despite the fact that he’s still shouting bigotry that would have been unacceptable a mere 10 years ago as a “mainstream” opinion.

And they voted entirely on the thought that we would suffer and die under a Trump presidency. And yet, we’re supposed to respect that? Honestly, every day we’re not breaking their nose with a baseball bat is a day we’re showing inhuman level of restraint to these whiny nazis.

Like, congratulations, you turned yourselves into nazis and aided his rise to power and instead of being angry that the thing you supported, you spend all your time trying to gaslight the rest of us into pretending this is somehow okay and normal. Fuck that noise and fuck right off out of our lives for good.

Because you were never “moderate”.

ScarlettAthena
ScarlettAthena
3 years ago

It’s also important to note that Trump voters are dismissive of protests. They are either sincerely or disingenuously ignorant of why people are protesting and like to pretend that it’s just about democrats begin sore losers. They don’t make mention of any of the issues that the protests address. And by the way, they don’t do this in a nice way. The meme I saw portrayed protesters as crying children.

Trump voters also don’t seem to understand that the proposed policies have real-world effects and that real people will suffer, and not just “got called a bad name”. And Weirwoodtreehugger pointed out that it’s not like conservatives don’t name call, or say “America love it or leave it” or whatever other non-argument they have.

Finally, Trump himself said that Republican congress people only represent those constituents who voted for them.
http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/2/17/14640376/trump-protests-obamacare

“…. He said that “they’re not the Republican people that our representatives are representing.” He said that Republican members of Congress aren’t elected to represent the people who live in their districts, or even the citizens of their districts — they’re elected to represent the people who voted for them, and free to ignore everybody else.”

These are people that think only their problems are the real ones. They are fine, and other people can go screw themselves.

personal anecdote time!
On extending voting days and hours, my mom said she didn’t have a problem getting to the polls on Tuesdays so why should they change anything? She didn’t care that other people have jobs and transit and other challenges.

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
3 years ago

@SomeGuy

That’s nice, dear.

ScarlettAthena
ScarlettAthena
3 years ago

@Some Guy

I agree that there should be a place for a conservative ideology. There needs to be at least two parties that get into power and ideas need to be discussed with various points of view considered.

Just where the fuck is that ideology these days?

Latte Cat
Latte Cat
3 years ago

“We’re backed into a corner,” said Mr. Medford, 46…..He added: “I didn’t choose a side. They put me on one.”

http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/1024/media/images/52272000/gif/_52272522_crying-baby.gif

Cerberus
Cerberus
3 years ago

Axecalibur-

Yeah, this is also key.

They want to pretend that we somehow need them to win. We don’t. What we need is to stop the mass disenfranchisement and outright electoral theft that was allowed to occur so that everyone has a chance to have their voices heard.

The bitter ragged last ditch defenders of whiteness are only “winning” because of mass cheating rendering us no longer a full democracy. End that and you’ll see the end of these fucks ever mattering again.

Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
3 years ago

@Someguy
Give me the alternate reality where the US is allowed to have multiple viable third parties. Or better yet teach me this alternate reality where conservative politics has been anything but catering and consolidating power for the pleasure of rich, white, racist assholes.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

All of the people involved were well-off, über-privileged people who felt that the world didn’t work to their personal specifications and that everyone had to hear about it and try to make the world jus the way they like it.

This can’t possibly be true. I’ve been told that people voted for Trump because of economic insecurity. It had nothing to do with racism at all!

Cerberus
Cerberus
3 years ago

ScarlettAthena- It’s the democratic party. The problem is that the Overton Window has shifted so much that “occasionally disagrees with nazis, but still thinks they have some good points” is considered the nice safe “moderate” position that lets you feel morally superior to both sides, because our broken ass system has been propping up the myth of the swing voter in the swing state to the detriment of actual policy and education.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
3 years ago

@Some Guy

There IS a conservative vision for the future of the United States that’s acceptable

OK, I’ll bite. What does this vision look like, who’s vision is it specifically, how is acceptable defined here, and acceptable to whom? Not having a go, legit interested! 🙂

@Cerberus
Right on

Bina
3 years ago

Dear MRAs, MGTOWs, PUAs and Drumpf supporters (did I repeat myself? I did, I did, and I did):

NOBODY OWES YOU ANY FUCKING LOVE.

NOBODY OWES YOU ANY FUCKING SYMPATHY.

NOBODY OWES YOU “CO-OPERATION” OR “A CHANCE”.

NOBODY OWES YOU ANYTHING.

YOU RUINED YOUR OWN LIVES, RELATIONSHIPS, AND THE POLITICS OF YOUR LAND BY VOTING FOR THIS PIECE OF SHIT.

YOU SIGNALLED THAT EVEN IF YOU YOURSELF ARE NOT A PUSSY-GRABBING BIGOTED PIECE OF SHIT, BEING ONE ISN’T A DEALBREAKER FOR YOU.

YOUR MORALS ARE NIL.

YOUR VALUES ARE NONSENSE.

YOUR BRAINS ARE CABBAGE.

YOU CARE ONLY ABOUT YOUR OWN FEELINGS.

FUCK YOUR FEELINGS.

Sorry for the ALL CAPS shouting, but it’s apparently the only thing you bozos can type. Or read.

Some Guy
Some Guy
3 years ago

@Ooglyboggles

I’m not necessarily saying that American conservatism has EVER been anything but that. The main point I was trying to make is that a false equivalence between “conservative ideas” and “the current conservative party’s ideas” is being used to repaint “opposing the current conservative party’s ideas” as “pre-emptively opposing all conservative ideas forever” (also known as “attempted thought policing”)

and I’m not sure this is being called out enough (it’s essentially the thread behind “liberals are saying we’re not allowed to have certain ideas!”)

tl;dr conservative politics has unfortunately always been like that, so ironically the best place to look for good, ideologically conservative ideas (which I would argue do exist, because while MOST things are broken and need fixing I don’t think literally everything is) has sometimes/often turned out to be the Democratic Party.

To avoid any further confusion, I should clarify that I am defining conservatism ideologically as “taking things that work and refining them” (in contrast to progressivism, which is “replacing things that don’t work with things that do”). Progressivism is necessary for most things at the moment because there’s a lot going wrong, but 100% progressivism would mean constantly overhauling everything which means conservatism needs to exist if only to provide the level of stability required for progressivism to function at all.

(and yeah that previous paragraph is completely ignoring the situation on the ground at the moment. I’m not expecting it to be useful, I’m providing it for context into the fantasy world that’s being used to attack liberals as thought police because I think the right is largely getting away with assuming that fantasy world without being criticized for it, we’re only going after the results)

Some Guy
Some Guy
3 years ago

@Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger

Basically it looks like iterating on current functional systems to produce better outcomes. Random example: Dealing with gerrymandering

A progressive approach would be to introduce an independent, government-funded body to prevent the practice, and to give it authority to effectively do so

A conservative approach might be to put regulations in place to prevent the practice, and to iterate on these regulations to prevent them being subverted by future politicians

For decreasing wealth inequality, progressives might introduce new, progressive taxes to pay for social safety nets while conservatives might try to increase the prices of luxury goods instead, or tweak the existing tax brackets (notable: tweaking tax brackets to increase taxes on the rich is, I would argue, an ideologically conservative action! At the moment though it’s considered leftist)

Honestly, I’m probably not the right person to ask because I’m more in favour of the overhauls. But nevertheless.

EDit: bit more detail, the most conservative action possible is “nothing” and the most progressive action possible is “destroy every trace of the old system and replace it with a new one”. It’s hard to identify an EXACT midpoint between these, but anything to the right of such a midpoint would be conservative.

Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
3 years ago

@Some Guy

People are getting “conservative (focus on retaining the things that are going well)” confused with “conservative (what the Republican Party is currently doing)”

Sure, that’s what progressives do. Never seen anybody identifying as “conservative” do it though.

@Cerberus

The bitter ragged last ditch defenders of whiteness are only “winning” because of mass cheating rendering us no longer a full democracy. End that and you’ll see the end of these fucks ever mattering again.

That’s what I’m hoping for, now that the damage is already done.

Hey, they want ethnic cleansings. I’m only calling for an ideological cleansing in political bodies, and they call us mean.

Skiriki
Skiriki
3 years ago

As long as Trumpistas keep lapping up the shit he craps and lies he vomits, well, I’m not going to give any quarter here.

The latest victim of his lies: people are now believing that something actually happened in Sweden, and it is being covered up.

https://twitter.com/ParkerMolloy/status/833362296600670210

Some Guy
Some Guy
3 years ago

@Sinkable John

I’d argue that “progressives” are currently taking on both halves of the spectrum, yeah, and that “conservatives” aren’t actually conservatives but people who want to blame others rather than self-examine and essentially loot disadvantaged areas of society for their own benefit.

In essence, “progressive” and “conservative” as labels for people have become entirely divorced from the ideological “how should we get things done” concepts they are SUPPOSED to represent. The original meaning of conservative is then used to paint anyone who opposes “conservatives” as opposing “keeping anything we have that’s currently working”, and key to refuting that argument is highlighting the distinction between the people currently CALLING themselves conservative or right-wing and what conservative/right-wing actually ARE

Hambeast (fan of diversity)
Hambeast (fan of diversity)
3 years ago

I’d love to get some of those Teen Vogue writers to hold some seminars over at MSNBC. I mean, I love me some Rachel Maddow and Chris Hayes, but they don’t exactly go hard on their ‘conservative’ guests. Well, except for that one time when Rachel had Rand Paul on and grilled him about whether he’d have voted for the Civil Rights Act (he didn’t answer and has never been back.)

There are two commercials running on MSNBC that kind of make me smirk. One is a blatant political ad for Neil Gorsuch*. Don’t know whose mind they’re trying to change, but they should stick to Morning Joe.

The other one is an AARP ad that says president Orange Julius Caesar promised to leave Social Security and Medicare alone and to petition Congress to do the same**. They talk about Dump’s “promise” AS IF WE SHOULD BELIEVE TRUMPLETHINSKIN WAS EVER TRUSTWORTHY! bah.

*My objection to Gorsuch is allowing the Rethuglicans to change the rules to suit them on a whim, not whether some legal assistant (from both Bush’s AND Obama’s Justice Dept.) thinks he’s totes fair and impartial. The Rethugs can confirm Merrick Garland or go pound sand.

**I agree that this is a good idea and have contacted my congresscritters about it. But seriously, if Congress manages to pass a bill ending SS and Medicare, Mango Mussolini will gleefully sign it and we all know it. It’s naive to believe otherwise, AARP!

Skiriki
Skiriki
3 years ago

Oh, and bonus round of “be nice or else” pointed out:
https://twitter.com/JoyAnnReid/status/833401915165794304

Some Guy
Some Guy
3 years ago

To use a math analogy, progressivism/conservatism are the left and right directions on a political axis, and “progressivism”/”conservatism” as they’re used in common parlance are up and down on a moral axis. Together, the two axes deal with the “how” and the “what” respectively, with the fundamental semantic problem I’m describing being that we’re criticizing people taking actions that are down on the moral axis but being interpreted as criticizing people taking actions that are right on the political axis

To be clear, this confusion has been intentionally fostered by “conservatives” to make the morally repugnant actions acceptable under the guise of being “on the right” instead of “down” and thus a legitimate political position rather than a naked call for discrimination and oppression, and I think it’s THIS deception that we need to be attacking.

(To further illustrate the point, Mao Zeodong’s Great Leap Forward was an example of an action that was “left and down”, or progressive and evil. I must stress that this uses the term progressive in the sense described above and NOT in the sense that “the Left” as it currently exists would agree with Mao’s policies, because pinning down semantics is a giant headache)

I do apologize for clogging up the comments to such a degree. I’ll shush up until I’m engaged again at this point.

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