It’s not news to anyone that some of the most popular antifeminist “arguments” are in fact logical fallacies.
For example, here’s the fallacy of relative privation, suggesting that women in first world countries aren’t allowed to complain about sexism so long as anyone in the world is worse off than them.
And here’s the good old straw man, in the form of a meme accusing feminists of believing all sorts of things they don’t believe (as well as a few things they do believe, but for perfectly good reasons).
MRAs: in case you’re wondering which of these statements are straw men and why, I’ve attached a helpful footnote below.
So, yeah, those are some logical fallacies on display. But looking through the memes on display on the Male Lives Matter Facebook page today — which is where the memes above came from — I began to realize that MRAs have invented a whole bunch of brand-new logical fallacies of their own.
Let’s take a look, shall we?
Argumentum ad Picard Facepalm
This “argument” might make a little more sense were it not for the fact that Patrick Stewart — you know, the dude who played Picard — weren’t in fact an outspoken feminist who has literally worn a “this is what a feminist looks like” shirt in public.
I should note that using a Picard facepalm pic isn’t always a fallacy For example, if you are Ian McKellen, a personal friend of Stewart who famously carried a Picard facepalm sign at the London Women’s March this January.
Argumentum ad Ha Ha You’ll Never Get Laid
Granted, “white knighting” is not the same as feminism; it’s a rather patronizing form of “chivalry.” And that last post on the right up there is a little cringey.
But this meme is aimed at male feminists. And while there are some ostentatiously “feminist” dudes who profess a shallow facsimile of feminism in hopes of scoring with the ladies, genuinely feminist dudes are feminists because, you know, they actually believe in equality and shit. As much as this might shock MRAs and others obsessed with classifying men according to simplistic schemes using Greek letters, feminism doesn’t actually render men unfuckable.
Hell, I have actual photographic proof that one of the guys in this very meme has had sex with at least one woman at least once. Here’s the guy in the middle up there — Nev Schulman of the show Catfish — posing recently with his very pregnant wife.
IN YOUR FACE MRAS!!!11!
In case you’re wondering, she has since given birth to a baby girl.
Argumentum ad WTF-um
Wat
Argumentum ad You’re Not a Fireman
Apparently if you’re a female feminist you’re not entitled to emergency services? Even if you pay taxes just like everybody else? Does that apply to male feminists too? I need to know before I light my apartment on fire.
It’s true that there are not a lot of female firefighters. It’s also true that women have been largely kept out of the profession. But not by feminists — the only people I ever see arguing against women firefighters are MRAs and other antifeminists.
Argumentum ad You’re Not a Coal Miner
A kind of mash-up of the Fallacy of Relative Privation and Argumentum ad You’re Not a Fireman. It’s worth pointing out that none of the MRAs I’ve ever seen making this “argument” has themselves been a coal miner.
Argumentum ad Women Sometimes Get Drunk
It’s true that women sometimes get really, really drunk. I’m not quite sure how exactly this is a rebuttal of feminism.
Or is this about the hats? Are you suggesting that women need to start wearing 1956-style hats again?
It’s all very confusing. I think I need a drink.
FOOTNOTE:
Here are the straw men in that straw man meme above:
On drunk women: feminists DO believe drunk women should be responsible for their behavior. Just not the behavior of others. If a woman drives drunk, feminists have no problem with her charged with drunk driving. If a woman is raped while she is drunk, by contrast, feminists don’t think she should be charged with “drunk being raped.”
On alimony, etc: Women do pay alimony and child support when a court rules that it’s appropriate, and no feminist I’ve ever seen has argued that they shouldn’t.
On the draft: Feminists have long argued that women should be allowed to serve in combat and the National Organization for Women has in fact taken legal action to try to extend selective service registration to women,
As for the other ones? I’m not quite sure how exactly the “false accusers should be charged” crowd defines a “false accuser,” but, yes, it’s true feminists don’t want rape accusers charged if they lose a rape case any more than they want murder accusers to be prosecuted for losing a murder case. Accusers of all sorts can be prosecuted for filing a false police report, but this is relatively rare.
Meanwhile, 50-50 custody can be crappy for kids, so it makes little sense to make it the default setting. As for the one about “unwed fathers,” is that really saying what it looks like it’s saying? If so, no, feminists don’t think fathers should be allowed to force women to get an abortion (or to not get an abortion).
EDIT: I reworked the paragraph on feminist dudes and sex to make myself clearer.
If they actually thought male lives matter, they would support BLM and refrain from trying to co-opt the phrase and the movement. But that’s asking too much of a group that doesn’t think black men are men.
POM,
Exactly right.
the concept of keeping a child in too-tight shoes as “punishment” (for existing I presume) is such a unique, bizarre way to torture someone I literally gasped as I read it.
Zephkiel,
The reason feminist groups push back against the kind of default 50/50 custody that MRA and FRA types want is because if one parent is an abuser, the other one has to rigorously prove it to get full custody. It’s why defaulting to whatever the parents decide unless they can’t come into an agreement and then it’s what’s best for the kids makes sense.
I don’t know how your friend and his ex came to the old custody arrangement, but the fact that he was able to get full custody after discovering the abuse says to me that the courts weren’t privileging the woman, they were looking out for the child. The system, fortunately worked. At least in this case.
It sounds reasonable from a distance when MRAs say they’re for equal custody, so I definitely see where you’re coming from and am not trying to imply you’re on their side. Just to clarify. But when you scratch the surface of what they’re actually advocating for, it’s pretty scary. Like that troll, Andrew we had a few months ago who wanted children to not be removed from homes until after the investigation was complete when a mother accused a father of child abuse. They’re definitely called the abuser’s lobby for a reason!
PoM, I totally agree! If these white guys (is that an assumption? #notall, but definitely *most* MRAs I’ve seen have been white) actually cared about male lives, they would work to support black men and other men who are oppressed (for reasons other than being male, although MRAs could maybe find fertile ground for their suspicions in how oppression of some men plays out along lines informed by toxic “traditional” masculine tropes).
“feminism doesn’t actually render men unfuckable.”
That’s really all it is, isn’t it? They think a) mail feminism is just a dating/meeting strategy, b) it is the same as white knighting, by a white knighting is actually a form of anti-feminism, C) they can CHECKMATE, FEMINISM by proving that white knighting is not a good dating strategy (and it probably isn’t, because it’s just a whinier, more self-deluded form of the same patriarchal bullshit MRAs/PUAs do).
I hate that I know how these guys think. Seeing that picture of Schulman and his pregnant wife, I thought, “oh, they would probably just say he got cucked and is going to be a victim of paternity fraud.”
I was mainly amused because I didn’t realize that my hair color made me a “rabid man-hating” feminist. I don’t hate men (although I do apparently prefer hanging out with women, something I didn’t realize until today, and I do hate toxic gender roles). Maybe I should get checked for rabies.
Just when I think the well of stupidity can’t get any deeper….
I guess I should be grateful that the spelling and grammar of MRAs isn’t any worse?
@SFHC
You can tell it’s David’s joke because it actually has “feminists” correctly spelled backwards. A real MRA meme would have read “stsinemef” or “stisnimef” or “tssnemmef”.
@Serebrianyi Golub
Ooooo, that DOES sound like a dating service! :p Mail order feminism?
Hey everyone, I would like to ask you for some advice if possible?
Otter and I are vaguely trying to launch a non-profit organization. I figured I should ask Mammotheers if anyone might have any experience doing anything like this? We’re not in the US, so I’m not talking about specific legal/tax concerns regarding US non-profits, but more general thoughts, possible pitfalls, things to keep in mind, etc.
Why are they so afraid to allow a paternal test for once? For my previous comment it just proves that women are worse than both Stalin and Hitler combined. Even Adolf Hitler and the people who committed the holocaust were less ruthless, I would rather experience one than be forced to live in a society where men, especially non-alphas are so ruthlessly treated
Well, what else would you expect to get from an outlet named Amazon?
I think “white knighting” as used by manospherians is a rather loose term, it might include chivalry and random nice guy attention seeking and male feminism and some standard politeness.
@ IP
I’m involved in a couple of similar things. I think the pitfalls (or at least stuff to be aware of) fall into two categories.
Firstly there’s all the general hassle of running a business/organisation. We can chat about that if you like but I’m sure you probably know what to expect there.
I think the second is particularly pertinent though for you. You care about stuff and people. Now obviously that’s a good thing! But you know there’s that general characteristic of a lot of progressive people that they can put other people’s interests ahead of their own. Hence all the self care stuff we keep coming back to. Well that’s exponentially increased when you run a non profit. You go beyond the general abstract compassion for your fellow humans; there’s a very direct connection with specific people, and that responsibility can be really overwhelming. If you’re the sort of person who feels a bit guilty when you take a break from all the crappy stuff going on in the news then it becomes even harder when you’ve got a case files referring to people you’ve actually met or emails that need answering. There’s like an extra layer of ‘identification’. You might try to take an afternoon for yourself but at the back of your mind you’re thinking “We still haven’t sorted Bob’s thing out yet”.
I certain don’t want to discourage you. I think it’s a marvellous idea and I wish you every success. This is something that it’s perhaps better to be forewarned about so you can consider steps for mitigating.
And now we have MGTOWRevolutionary’s comment proving that it’s not just their memes that are dumb.
@ MGTOWRevolutionary
I don’t know where you live, but over here (England) it’s pretty easy to get a DNA test in child maintainance disputes.
Here’s a link to the relevant application form. Knock yourself out.
https://www.gov.uk/get-dna-test
Oh bloody hell, the coalminer!
Here is a snippet of what ACTUALLY happened in England:
‘Within three months parliament had banned females from underground work to protect their health and morals, and to enable them to look after their families properly.
For some women, mining had been the only employment option, and they went on to suffer years of hardship because there were no other jobs. A few defied the law for a while and continued to work underground. By the end of the 1840s they had generally found a new role, moving coal at the pit head.’
Full article here:
http://www.historyextra.com/feature/scandal-female-miners-19th-century-britain
Oh my gosh these are dumb. I just can’t take the selfish stupidity anymore. Ever since November, it’s like the assholes have turned themselves up to 11 with their stupid, stupid hate. Can’t deal. Thank you for being so darn lovely, Ian McKellan and Patrick Stewart, and all of you here too, of course.
Hey, @MGTOWRevolutionary, guess what! Your long, dark oppression is over! It’s legal to get paternity tests now – just checked, they’re inexpensive and widely available! You don’t even need to get the court involved, you can just do it! Thank goodness it was made legal, bec-
wait, I’m being told that it’s always been available. And something about you being a gormless, incurious lickspittle who doesn’t actually care about anything but hurting women? Huh! And – well, that’s oddly specific.
So I guess you can call off the revolution, you’ve won! I mean, unless there’s something else you want to revolve on. Knock yourself out.
@Moggie
The pic of Patrick Stewart holding a pic of Ian McKellen holding a pic of the Picard Facepalm is so meta it nearly folded my brain in on itself.
@David
Stop it! The sarcasm…hurting…can’t breathe…laughing so much! ?
BTW – is that first one with Homer genuine? Do they not know Homer Simpson is meant to be a buffoon? A good-hearted, family-oriented buffoon I’ll grant you, but nevertheless, anything that makes logical sense to Homer really shouldn’t be used as a yardstick for intelligibility and sense by other human beings. SMH ?♂️
MGTOWRevolutionary declaimed:
That’s it, we’ve reached peak Godwin already. Might as well just wrap things up here.
Hitler. Sigh.
Yes, because a little personal inconvenience, or some hurt feelings, or having to take responsibility from the children you helped create, is somehow EXACTLY AS BAD as anything Hitler did.
@Alan
Hey, you don’t even know what the idea is yet! :p
Of the two categories you identify, I’m more concerned about the first. I am completely inexperienced with this kind of thing, and it will be my Otter doing any kind of organizing since I am literally the least organized person in the world. Having said that, she also lacks significant experience with this sort of thing.
Regarding the second category, I feel like I already deal with a lot of those issues in my current volunteer work and freelance stuff. I recognize that it will be a major step up, but most of all I would move my focus from a non-profit run by other people, where I have maybe 50% of the responsibility for my specific group, to my own non-profit where I would hopefully work a lot more and take 100% responsibility for everything. What I’m trying to say is, yes it’s a big step up, but I kind of know what to expect, having done similar work in other capacities for a number of years.
Right now we’re focusing on trying to write up a proper report on exactly what we would do, how much demand we expect there to be, the extent to which our work would already be covered by existing organizations, mission statement/core values, etc, in order to eventually seek funding.
This is the law in Quebec. The child’s best interest is assumed to be equal access to both parents, unless the interest lies in giving one parent more access.
Alberta is the same (I know someone going through a messy divorce there). I expect other provinces would be similar.
@ IP
A proper business plan is a really useful document. It really helps you focus your attention on the areas you mention, and they’re fantastically useful when it comes to funding and tendering. They’re a bit of a pain cos there’s so much you need to put in there, but they’re a great core document once you’ve done that. There seems to be a pretty standard format now. You can find templates on the net. If you get stuck let me know and I can ask David to forward you one we did (if only to show you how not to fill them in).
One thing that was very helpful with another project was contacting the national body that deals with that field. I just said here’s what we’re trying to achieve but we haven’t got a clue about how to go about it. They’ve been marvellous. They’ve provided us with all the documentation and guidance. They even sent someone down to spend a bit of time with us as a hand holding exercise. They were also able to advise us in relation to the sector generally. Areas we might like to focus on, groups we could liase with, funding opportunities etc.
Your previous experience will put you in very good stead. Like you say, you’re pretty much already doing this so I’m sure you’ll be great at this. Good luck with it all; I have no doubt you’ll do a brilliant job.
IP: I’m on the board of a charitable fund, which is trivial (a few tax forms, and we meet by email to decide who to give money to).
A non-profit that actually does something is exactly as much work as a small business. It’s a lot of work!
I strongly recommend the business model canvas (wiki it) as a way to brainstorm and force you to ask yourselves the uncomfortable questions you can’t quite answer. Whether you’re for profit or non-profit doesn’t affect what the BMC is driving at, which is: does your project have any chance of success? The most critical boxes are the customer segments and value proposition (who are you helping? What do they want to do that you can help them?); the rest is easier. Every line on the page needs to match a line in the customer segments: funding agencies are one customer segment, the individuals you’re helping are another.
Feel free to fire questions at me!