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Terrible people celebrate Sessions confirmation with racism, gloating, more racism

From Occidental Dissent. Yes, that is Jeff Sessions’ head photoshopped onto the body of a confederate general. Which they think is a good thing.

Huh. I wonder what the internet’s worst people are saying about the confirmation of Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III for Attorney General.

Let’s go to Twitter and look!

Here’s a reaction from one of the more “respectable” white supremacist sites:

And here’s the reaction from David Duke, the least likeable of the Duke brothers:

https://twitter.com/DrDavidDuke/status/829495757627617280

https://twitter.com/DrDavidDuke/status/829513407648899072

https://twitter.com/DrDavidDuke/status/829580372367253504

Let’s see what this Twitter rando who calls himself @DinduDingus has to say:

https://twitter.com/DinduDingus/status/829503948423884804

And here’s an assortment of other terrible people:

https://twitter.com/polNewsNetwork1/status/829489370663100416

https://twitter.com/PlainFox/status/829493792994631680

https://twitter.com/DennisL656/status/829514109578260480

https://twitter.com/Alt_Right_/status/829495101583941633

https://twitter.com/jake_bradford_1/status/829503770262372356

https://twitter.com/CuriousVoid/status/829513843969634304

https://twitter.com/josemay1945/status/829514497136160768

https://twitter.com/ownedjack/status/829487883362979841

The “lock her up” crowd is pretty excited as well:

https://twitter.com/Chatzworth1/status/829490424674910208

https://twitter.com/JaynePenelope/status/829499443577778177

https://twitter.com/JoshNoneYaBiz/status/829500191472500736

Yes, Connie, we knew you were referring to Hillary.

This “new era” doesn’t actually seem very new at all.

UPDATE: I added some more tweets from Mr. Duke that he tweetered after this post originally went up.

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Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
3 years ago

All really good observations! @Axe, thank you for sharing that, by the way. I’ve never seen the GG thing talked about from that angle, and it was a great angle to take! Very informative.

@SFHC, I wish that were the case. His reaction to finding out about the Wachowski Sisters was along the lines of “Whatever, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.” Never have I met a man with an ego so resilient to reality.

My tentative and abstract opinion on why they have such a hard time seeing depth is informed by “Brave New World,” really. Spectacle as a replacement for substance, appearance in lieu of content. A focus on the surface attributes of a thing to avoid thinking deeply – like @Jesalin said, out of fear of the things within them. Admitting that they may not be the shining beacon of goodness and truth and justice that they’re told they have to be. It’s much easier to just assert that fact that dig deep and ensure it, after all.

It’s a defense mechanism, protecting the individual from having to do any deep self-criticism. There’s no reason to question one’s own choices and ethics if there’s no meaningful substance within the things we interact with, after all.

(This is why I always say that rationality’s hard, and I often warn people to not pursue it too intensely. It’s easy to go off the other end of the scale and be too self critical, immobilizing yourself with doubt and guilt.)

This lack of ethical engagement is very informative when we look at MRA’s, GG’ers, and the Trump administration. Helps explain why reasoned argument doesn’t seem to ever penetrate; none of it matters if there’s nothing real beneath the surface.

We gotta make it real for them – protest is the only way to push it into their world of surface meaning. It’s a tragedy, but it seems to be the only level on which they operate.

Those are my thoughts on it, at least. I do like everyone else’s though – they all feel like they’re in the right direction at least.

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

I don’t get the apparent fury at people for actively not wanting to hurt other people. It never makes sense to me.

I get the impression that it’s because if I say I avoid using slur x because it hurts group y, they take this as an accusation that when they use slur x they’re in the wrong for doing so. Even if I’m not saying anything about them, they make it about them.

Handsome :Punkle Stan: Jack

He stopped me and replied, loudly and angrily, that I was full of shit, and that it was about cool camera tricks and gunfights and robots and stuff.

comment image

But, yeah, what everyone has been saying.

To get kinda tangential, some people just need to have a black and white view because it’s simpler that way. You know what to like, what to hate, what’s good, what’s bad–no real need to think deeply about these things so you always know what to do, you always know what’s right, thus you are always right.

Same thing applies to power structures. “Might is right”. If you’re on the side that wins, you’re on the “right” side, thus will not be punished for being “wrong”.

To quote the musical Wicked:

There are precious few at ease
With moral ambiguities
So we act as though they don’t exist

But, on the other hand, that dude may also have been mad that they didn’t notice the biblical allegories while you did, so they may have just put their foot down to save their pride, even if they were, you know, fucking wrong as fuck. Some people are just stupidly stubborn because no one likes being wrong–this, of course, goes back to black and white thinking. Stripping or ignoring the complexities of situations makes things black and white, thus making it easier to pick the “right” side.

Either way, the dude was just being an ass.

EDIT: Ninja’d by…like…a lot of people.

Gussie Jives
Gussie Jives
3 years ago

Just to add to the ongoing discussion of deeper meanings, I get the sense that some people really want their fictional universes to be a total fantasy, without any connection to the complex and murky reality they occupy. Star Wars is just a Campbellian space opera with a bunch of cool ships and lasers. Lord of the Rings is just sword and sorcery tale that they can inhabit for a few hours and discard when they feel like it. Just zero appreciation for the creative choices made that reflect on our society.

Rogue One was actually one of the films that I appreciated from the standpoint of historical parallels, parallels that none of the reviews I read picked up on. Urban uprising. Espionage. Guerilla warfare. WMDs. Even the dark waters of assassination were touched on in that film. But nope, CGI Tarkin was creepy, so booo!

I gotta lay some blame for this attitude at the f00t of one Phil Mason, whose crowing about science over humanities is what gave rise to the “reals over feels” nonsense you see in so many of these shitlords. I’m an engineer and I recognized the value in my humanities courses. Hell, my course in Science Fiction and Fantasy introduced me to Neil Gaiman, Robert Heinlein and Nalo Hopkinson. New ideas and new ways of thinking about the world. Literature, art, music… it’s important to study these things, no matter what your major is.

Shit, hand these guys a copy of Harrison Bergeron (or any Vonnegut for that matter) and I guarantee they misunderstand the themes.

Even the 80s comedy Real Genius had a great exchange that illustrated the issue quite well:

Chris: Yeah, and [Laslo Hollyfeld] used to be the number one stud around here in the 70’s. (whispers) Smarter than you and me put together.
Mitch: So what happened? Did he crack?
Chris: Yes, Mitch. He cracked, severely.
Mitch: Why?
Chris: He loved his work.
Mitch: Well what’s wrong with that.
Chris: There’s nothing wrong with that, but that’s all he did. He loved solving problems, he loved coming up with the answers. But, he thought that the answers were the answer for everything. Wrong. All Science no Philosophy. So then one day someone tells him that the stuff he’s making was killing people.
Mitch: So what’s your point? Are you saying I’m going to end up in a steam tunnel?
Chris: Yeah.
Mitch: What?
Chris: You are, if you keep up like this. Mitch, you don’t need to run away from here. When you’re smart people need you. Use your mind creatively.

Rhuu
Rhuu
3 years ago

@Axecalibur: Thank you for the link! I’m going through those videos now, they seem super interesting.

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

@Gussie Jives
I love that movie. :3

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Ugh. A little preview of what we have in store for us if we continue down the alt right path in this country

http://jezebel.com/dirtbag-russian-columnist-thinks-women-should-be-happy-1792178197

Gussie Jives
Gussie Jives
3 years ago

@kupo Easily one of my favourites. It had a lightheartedness to it, even when it dealt with some serious subject matter, but it did it without insulting the intelligence of the audience. Even with a college comedy film from 1985, there’s plenty to analyze and examine.

Fishy Goat
Fishy Goat
3 years ago

@Gussie Jives No kidding. And the popcorn ending was brilliant! LOL!

Moocow
3 years ago

@Gussie Jives

I gotta lay some blame for this attitude at the f00t of one Phil Mason, whose crowing about science over humanities is what gave rise to the “reals over feels” nonsense you see in so many of these shitlords. I’m an engineer and I recognized the value in my humanities courses. Hell, my course in Science Fiction and Fantasy introduced me to Neil Gaiman, Robert Heinlein and Nalo Hopkinson. New ideas and new ways of thinking about the world. Literature, art, music… it’s important to study these things, no matter what your major is.

This. Very much so. Quite a few people I’ve encountered, both in video game spaces and in my engineering school had this ridiculously level of condescension towards the arts. Science was perfectly flawless and the arts are useless wastes of time. Even one of my friends who studied game design took a while to even admit that his department was part of Humanities Arts and Social Sciences (HASS) at our school.

I think it shows up in gaming since video games are an art born from science (to a certain extent television/movies are too, although not as much).

@WWTH

Utterly disgusting in every single way. Domestic violence characterized as an act of ‘love’ is so vile.

EDIT: I kept reading. WHAT THE EVERLOVING FUCK? It’s ok for women to get beaten because they are ‘pseudo-scientifically more likely’ to give birth to boys?

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Moocow,

Yeah, that evopsych “scientist” who made that claim is the same one who argued that black women are ugly because science. So he’s pretty much the worst.

tim gueguen
3 years ago

Funny how these guys find various ways to claim their opponents are losers, then they identify with actual losers, the Confederacy. Sort of like the Nazi fanboys who love Hitler so much, despite his ultimate failure.

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

EDIT: I kept reading. WHAT THE EVERLOVING FUCK? It’s ok for women to get beaten because they are ‘pseudo-scientifically more likely’ to give birth to boys?

Ok, so I decided to read but only got about as far as this part. It’s an advantage to have boys? How the fuck so? Please, explain to my ladybrain why I should find it to be an advantage to have a boy if I love in a world where men beat women regularly? And an advantage that only comes to be once one has already reproduced can’t influence selection, so…

Brony, Social Justice Cenobite

My own example in the same set as Scildfreja’s, and that of several of the rest of you was (once again) from my experience in the brony community. Before the Ponychan schism there were many people famous for being passionate and wordy that had strong feelings about how an episode of My Little Pony should be interpreted. One example that comes to mind was the meaning of “Tanks for the Memories“.

In that episode Rainbow Dash’s pet Tank had to hibernate for the winter because he was a tortoise. Rainbow Dash could not accept that her friend had to go away for a really long time by burying himself in the ground. Post schism (which birthed mlpchan) my friend was a moderator of a descendent of Ponychan (ponyville) and he wanted to ask my opinion about the episode in skype. I don’t precisely remember the question that prompted the conversation but they were arguing with others about the meaning. They thought that the meaning was supposed to represent someone with a disability and a parent that wanted them be different than they were.
I could see that my friend found personal meaning in that interpretation but the way they discussed the situation to me suggested that they needed other people to see it that way too. I told them that there are no true meanings in entertainment and when they are vague and symbolic they are more interesting because more than one meaning is possible. Everyone is right, and “right” is a set of common experiences.
On the innocent end this relates to parents that have to go away for a while (parents in the military for example) and how can deal with temporary loss. In a more serious versionTank burying himself in the ground and the way Rainbow Dash was crying could easily make the story appropriate for metaphors related to death.
People need a story to mean something to them personally (fragments of the story actually). Having other people share your view reinforces that meaning with an ill-defined social component. As a related concept I’m going to appeal to the Symbolic Function (related because it’s objective nature is fuzzy and this is a casual conversation).
[Your meaning] + [Their meaning]

Don’t forget that the link is about a small range of human development where we gain an ability that is preceded by other cognitive stages that involve simpler and more basic cognition. An ability that is followed by more stages later where other abilities appear (leading to memories contextualized by what came before, there is a lot more than puberty). That is also neglecting what looks increasingly like intergenerational patterns to development (this dovetails with a conversation in another thread, culture and developmental biology)

There are parts that overlap (common circuitry, anatomy, overall purpose for the instincts and related feelings of emotion) because this is about human communication social psychology and cognition. I think of them as metaphorically as being like algebra equations. We are individual independent variables and there is a diversity of dependent variables generated from a common underlying structure.

I can’t say precisely what Scildfreja’s friend was reacting to, but anger suggests a feeling of threat. Something in those interpretations were threatening (I also miss a lot of the specific symbolism in The Matrix, not all, but some). His reasons can only be indirectly known but “robot fights” is a similar reaction to “just trolling/joking”. My friend’s value from their interpretation was clear. They or someone they know is considered disabled and a caregiver wishes they were different or is trying to change them. And they feel it as a strong negative. And they wanted social support. I’m sure there is a way to satisfy everyone but it requires figuring this out in a human race sense.

Children’s shows break up into simple chunks when it comes to lessons and meanings and I saw people dissect that show for meaning and transform it with memes, fanfics, role-playing, iconic representation in conversation, video games. An image board is a social community. One of the earliest uses of MLP image macros was to troll people on 4chan’s /b/ board (the “asshole of the internet” where the “internet hate machine” lives). There were many people that could not stand to see conversations about liking that show. So they trolled /b/ with pony memes. And it worked, you can piss in the ocean of piss (the furries learned this first).

“Objectification” goes very deep when it comes to media and meaning. I suspect there are neurodiversity angles in the resulting cultural evolution (since we do exist as percentages in the 0.5%-5% range that contains the most commonly mentioned neurodevelopmental condition numbers).

Eventually Moot banned the bronies. And then changed his mind and gave them their own board (/mlp/, NSFW and TW for many reasons as of my last visit, these people think that trying to ban sexually explicit content is enough). Ponychan was born before /mlp/ but after the ban forced the bronies to create an image board in order to continue existing social relationships (Ponychan was seeded by /co/ (cartoons/animation) and /b/).

We use people in our language as a matter of course. How we do it matters. The functional use of other people in a group sense is a shared meaning, and the individual feeling of it prompts action through personal motivation, motivation from experiences including shared meaning with family/childhood culture.

Painting “autism” like a thing that stinks and should be removed is dehumanizing and does multiple things at once when it comes to potential evolutionary explanations. It repeatedly negs a community (You are the insult if you have the diagnosis). It name-calls a general set of things people don’t like on image boards to encourage group disapproval. It’s a disgust related behavior because it is involved in treating something as if it is to be rejected by the group.

Scildfreja, if anything else comes to mind maybe we can shave into your friends behavior a little more. I’m sure everyone has lots more examples of this which is good because social normalization cures bias.

Brony, Social Justice Cenobite

Did I say “these people think that trying to ban sexually explicit content is enough.”?

I meant just pictures and videos. They have no idea how many ways one can cause problems with sexual and other content. That’s more precise anyway.

Kat
Kat
3 years ago

There’s some angst in this thread. This scenario in the radical left stronghold of Salt Lake City should cheer you up:

GOP Congressman Jason Chaffetz Showered With Boos and Jeers in Roiling Town Hall Meeting

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/02/09/republican_rep_chaffetz_booed_and_jeered_at_town_hall_meeting.html

Kat
Kat
3 years ago

@varalys the dark

(having epic insomnia after getting home from three days in hospital)

I’m sorry to hear that.

I hope that all went well in the hospital and that you get some refreshing sleep very soon.

Kootiepatra
3 years ago

To chip in on the subtext conversation:

From the guys like that (and yeah, I’m pretty sure it’s always been guys) that I’ve known, I think the aversion to deeper meaning is at least partially related to their desire to not be held accountable for their words/jokes/ etc. Using ableist, misogynist, racist, or all manner of other bigoted slurs is ok, because it’s “just a joke”. Sticks and stones and all that.

To them, it’s unreasonable and unfair to get on their case about it, because they don’t really MEAN anything by it. This is just the way they joke, man. If other people are offended by just words–which don’t really mean anything ofc–then that’s on those people for reading too much into it. And even worse, being asked to tone it down is horrifically unfair–this can’t be about showing consideration to others, because it’s not like people can legitimately be hurt by these words that don’t really mean anything–so this must just be a personal attack against the joker. How dare you tell me to change who I am when you can just stop reading into the things I’m saying. Etc.

So in order to buoy up the idea that saying *explicitly* awful things doesn’t really MEAN anything awful, then they of course can’t acknowledge that this piece of art/media, which is likely being somewhat more subtle or implicit in its message, can possibly mean anything. If dudebro can spout racist rhetoric just for teh lulz, then Neo can come back from the dead just for the special effects.

(And of course there’s also the thing of “I like this movie, therefore it can’t have a message that I don’t like because I don’t want to be challenged”, but I think that still kinda overlaps with “I should be able to say whatever I like without pushback”)

Christina Nordlander, Emperor's White Knight
Christina Nordlander, Emperor's White Knight
3 years ago

@tim gueguen:

Hah, well said!

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
3 years ago

The villains of this election will always be the voters who were taken in by bigotry and empty rhetoric, and the GOP who for decades worked tirelessly to increase the support for bigotry of all kinds among voters.

I also believe that the Democratic party has failed in getting a coherent message out. I’m not talking about the Brocialists who will never be happy with any serious candidate no matter what, but there are many good reasons to dislike the Obama/Clinton wing of the party on ideological grounds. To be clear, people who feel this way are still to blame for voting 3rd “party” when so much was at stake.

I also believe that Clinton’s campaign had absolutely terrible strategy from the beginning of the primaries and on. I think they could, and maybe should, have won this election despite the misogyny and racism of voters. In short, they fucked up, but that’s not to say they would’ve won if they hadn’t fucked up. The racists would’ve still been just as racist. The misogynists would’ve still been just as misogynist.

The campaign failed. The strategy was a disaster. The primary voters preferred Hillary over any other candidate. The electoral system favors racist and misogynists. Hillary had to battle rampant misogyny as well as her opponent in the general election.

None of these statements are mutually exclusive.

This was always an unlikely outcome. 18 months ago, almost nobody expected Trump to win. Many (including myself) treated this outcome as an impossibility. Such an unlikely event probably had several major and minor contributing causes. Most of us, on this blog, believe that the wave of bigotry sweeping over the world was the main contributing factor. I don’t think we should ignore other factors. We can focus on more than one thing at a time.

PreuxFox
PreuxFox
3 years ago

I know I’m a bit late, but for those confused by ‘autistic silence’, the new big thing among /channers is specifically ‘*autistic screeching*’. This particular ‘joke’ has actually started to really catch on even outside the chan boards, unlike most of the more general autism-as-an-insult uses.

So it looks to me like it’s basically a play on that. Because she has a gag in her mouth, so she can’t screech, see.

Gussie Jives
Gussie Jives
3 years ago

I think Kootiepatra’s on to it there. With a lot of the GamerGate meltdowns throughout the internet, the rank and file gamers who through their lot in with the movement were upset that somehow feminists and cultural critics like Anita Sarkeesian were making value judgments about them due to their enjoyment of particular games. After all, if God of War is sexist, what does it say about me that I like the game and identify with Kratos? So anybody doing any kind of deeper analysis of the medium had to be hounded into silence.

The irony to me was always that their protests said more about them than merely enjoying a game that had a sexist protagonist. I enjoy media with quote-unquote “problematic” elements to ’em… I just make sure I recognize ’em when I see ’em. But the average Gater didn’t want to think about the implications of anything they were seeing–which should have them greeting such critiques with a shrug rather than a temper tantrum–so Anita Sarkeesian must be mocked and ridiculed into oblivion.

To heap irony upon irony, the same people who were crowing about how awful game journalists and cultural critics are for maligning poor innocent gamers are the same ones telling women to stop talking about “feelings”.

In short… there’s a strategy in their disengagement with deeper literary and cultural analysis. It’s to spare them the feelings of cognitive dissonance they believe they don’t have, while projecting them onto everyone else.

booburry
3 years ago

I’m sort of worried now about the “justice democrats” shooting themselves in the foot. I basically am seeing a ton of white progressives with good intentions blatantly ignoring the fact that minorities don’t seem to be super enthused about The High Sanders. Seems like they’re so focused on bringing working class whites etc. into the fold that they forget that they(we!) can’t win elections without POC. And it’s bullshit to keep telling them to stfu and vote for whoever the white Dems decide on. It really worries me because bringing this shit up usually gets me the kind of defensiveness you get from white women when they are critiqued on their feminism not bwing intersectional. In general I’m all for the politics of the so called “justice democrats” as long as they can find a way to give people of color (women especially) a voice and stomp out the “identity politics are poison” folks.

Mostly I just worry very much about the left’s future. I see too many lefties on twitter and such that seem more pissed at Hillary supporters than they do Trump folks. These are generally the same folks who still don’t think Bernie Bros ever existed or that they were a few trolls similar to gamergate defenders.

booburry
3 years ago

And I second PreuxFox’s explanation of the autistic silence thing. I’ve seen memes with the same stick figure with “autistic screeching” next to it. They just swapped in silence because of Elizabeth Warren. These are truely creative minds we’re dealing with. 😒

mildlymagnificent
mildlymagnificent
3 years ago

To get kinda tangential, some people just need to have a black and white view because it’s simpler that way.

Remember, there are also people who are very literal-minded and it is possible to have no imagination at all.

Both my sister and I were completely blown away by her daughter when she was small. Sis is a great seamstress and made many of her kids’ clothes. However, deciding what to sew was a real trial. She’d show niece the pattern just to show the style. Then she’d say would you like it in this nice pink paisley fabric or this one with the pretty blue and yellow stripey pattern. Niece simply could not understand the question. The pattern showed the skirt-dress-shorts-shirt in green check, she couldn’t envisage it any other way. She really couldn’t.

Neither sis nor I were much at drawing but that was the only way we could try to show her what we meant about how it would look in certain fabrics or with or without a collar-decorative trim or whatever.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
3 years ago

@booburry

I basically am seeing a ton of white progressives with good intentions blatantly ignoring the fact that minorities don’t seem to be super enthused about The High Sanders

Road to perdition something something

Seems like they’re so focused on bringing working class whites etc. into the fold that they forget that they(we!) can’t win elections without POC. And it’s bullshit to keep telling them to stfu and vote for whoever the white Dems decide on

Preach!

In general I’m all for the politics of the so called “justice democrats” as long as they can find a way to give people of color (women especially) a voice and stomp out the “identity politics are poison” folks

The (apparently not social) justice democrats were created by and for people who have no real interest in intersectional progress. Especially Kulinski, but Sanders and Uygur too. The ‘identity politics are poison’ folks are a feature not a bug, I’m afraid

These are generally the same folks who still don’t think Bernie Bros ever existed or that they were a few trolls similar to gamergate defenders

‘Berniebros aren’t real, you stupid bitch’
http://www.troll.me/images/obama-isnt-happy/bruh-thumb.jpg

Hambeast (fan of diversity)
Hambeast (fan of diversity)
3 years ago

eli said

Certain people are just entirely resistant to any meaning below the most obvious surface of things. I see it plenty with older people too.

Older person here, but this is something that I’ve grappled with all my life, and it’s not resistance, but very much like what dlouwe said here:

I find this really interesting, because I’ve always had a great deal of trouble figuring out themes and subtext, and at times it’s made me feel insecure, but at no point have I ever felt the need to argue against the idea of theme or subtext. Like, when people bring it up, I think “Oh that’s neat, I wish I could have figured that out on my own!”

I have often wondered if it has anything to do with my extreme willingness to suspend disbelief in the face of any and all entertainment media. In fact, one of my YouTube obsessions is a particular movie critic who points out these things and I find it endlessly fascinating because I don’t think of them myself.

Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
3 years ago

@Axe
Kyle still thinks that Nazi apologist Sargon of Akkad is a legitimate talking head.

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
3 years ago

Thanks for all the replies, everyone! Some fabulous comments in here. That’s why I love this place – well, one of the reasons, at least. So many smarty-smarts in here. You all get gold stars!

I think that @mildlymagnificent may be the closest to this particular case I was talking about. The guy in my anecdote isn’t sexist or racist – well, he ain’t woke, but he’s compassionate and thoughtful when something bubbles up into his consciousness. He’s actually a social worker who spends his days working in a nursing home for schizophrenic people, and will defend them and their dignity like a bulldog. He’s a good egg. I think that he’s just not creative enough to see the meanings that lurk inside of media.

It’s a weird concept to me, I guess – I instinctively pull apart anything I read or watch for its themes. I can’t fathom watching something like The Matrix just for fight scenes and cool effects.

(Then again, I basically don’t watch Hollywood movies at all anymore, since there’s really not a lot beneath that)

Gotta wonder if that’s the same issue that plagues the terminally sexist/racist. They don’t believe that harm is being caused because they literally can’t imagine things outside of their lived experiences. Huh.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
3 years ago

@Oogly

Kyle still thinks that Nazi apologist Sargon of Akkad is a legitimate talking head

Yeah, Kulinkski was the 1st to go in my purge of White Liberal(tm) and brogressive media in late 2015/early 2016. Good fuckin riddance to the lot

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
3 years ago

I have no idea who Kulinski is, but I get the impression that I’m not missing much.

I’d go on a purge of brogressive/white liberal media that I take in, but I don’t think I’d have much left otherwise. Needless to say, I don’t really get much news without me rolling my eyes and gritting my teeth these days…

booburry
3 years ago

@Axe 🙁 you’re right you’re right. It’s just so damn frustrating. People thinking they’re going to magically garner more votes by being like “you need to get with this specific program or you’re neoliberal shill”.
But Hillary saying it was high time for a woman to be president was divisive. *sigh*

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
3 years ago

@Scildfreja

I’d go on a purge of brogressive/white liberal media that I take in, but I don’t think I’d have much left otherwise

Not an easy choice, granted. However works for you tho!

@booburry

But Hillary saying it was high time for a woman to be president was divisive

#dealmein 🙂

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
3 years ago

@Axe, I’ve gotten pretty good at watching news media that I don’t entirely agree with, like The Young Turks. I sometimes have to just watch the headlines and details, then skip the commentary afterwards, though – they telegraph what their opinions are pretty clearly. Some of them on there are pretty darn intersectional, even if the other half of’em aren’t at all. So I can deal with that.

Friend of mine is a fan of Rebel Media, which is a Canada-specific internet news outlet that’s worse than Fox, and that’s something I can’t sit through. I tried to awhile ago, to try to understand their perspective, but ugh. I sat through twelve minutes of Ezra Levant crying about how the Carbon Tax Inspectors for the new carbon tax up here were like a personal government Gestapo… while they have the same powers and limitations as food and health inspectors. So incredibly biased.

My filter is basically whether the media station allows vocal, strong dissent of opinion amongst its main commentators, and whether that dissent is respected. It’s not perfect, but it’s working so far, I think.

Dalillama, Shepherd of Demonic Crocodiles
Dalillama, Shepherd of Demonic Crocodiles
3 years ago

I tend to agree with IP, in that I think that the Democrats would benefit electorally from a hard skew to the left; take something like BLM’s platform as the party baseline and run on that, they’d make hay. You can’t fight false populism with milquetoast centrism, nor with austerity and neoliberal bullshit. You need a proper populist platform, and the Democrats haven’t had one of those in my lifetime. (Or ever, really, but that’s a much longer discussion). Unfortunately, the last election provided a fascist appealing to the white working class, a quisling appealing to the white working class, and a neoliberal centrist. Who frankly mostly focused her appeals on whites AFAICT, if a little less.

@Boobury
The ‘justice democrats’ appear to have the same problem the party mostly has. Which, as I pointed out in another thread recently, is that most of the party leadership (and much of the white rank and file) are actually also white supremacists, just not as devoted to cutting off their own noses from spite. This is because white supremacy is built into the very bedrock of the United States, and has always been an intrinsic part of our culture. All American white people are raised as white supremacists to a greater or lesser degree, and those who don’t actively examine their actions on a continuous basis will continue to act in accordance with it, even when they say they aren’t. TLDR:They mostly don’t give a shit about intersectional concerns, but they’re willing to let those people tag along while they help cishet whites.
Also, that Ugyur fuck being involved makes me hate the ‘justice democrats’ by reflex. I mean, if they do good things, great, I’d love to see some of those planks enacted, for everyone’s benefit, but it’s a start, far from an end.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

@ dalillama

I was just thinking of you when I saw this. I may as well post it here though as it seems to cover some of the points raised, although opinions on the conclusion may well differ.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/10/fake-news-russia-comey-poor-answers-why-donald-trump-won

dlouwe
dlouwe
3 years ago

@Hambeast

I have often wondered if it has anything to do with my extreme willingness to suspend disbelief in the face of any and all entertainment media.

I, too, have an incredibly easily suspended disbelief (this extends to dreams and social interactions), which certainly could have something to do with it – I believe things to be true as they’re presented, and rarely try to look for anything deeper.

But on top of that, even when I’m looking for it, subtext tends to be pretty invisible to me. It always seems so obvious when pointed out, but I don’t even understand how to look for those sorts of connections. It just seems fundamentally impossible (or at least improbable) to be able to sift through every moment of a 90 minute film and recognize the few important ones that connect to form a clearly implied meaning. (Also possibly related: I’m crap at word puzzles)

@Scildfreja

It’s a weird concept to me, I guess – I instinctively pull apart anything I read or watch for its themes. I can’t fathom watching something like The Matrix just for fight scenes and cool effects.

I tend to instead pull apart the construction of movies. Filming, editing, direction, etc. I watch movies for the experience they provide – what they make me think and feel – and I love studying how they got me to think and feel those things. Like the thriller that enhances tension by skipping establishing shots, or the thoughtful drama that uses careful set decoration to foreshadow and reinforce the story. Every Frame a Painting is basically my bible.

Dalillama : Shepherd of Demonic Crocodiles.
Dalillama : Shepherd of Demonic Crocodiles.
3 years ago

@Alan
See, that’s the problem with so much mainstream (i.e. white) political analysis. It ignores the elephant in the room. The bottom line is that progressive or leftist policy is never going anywhere in this country on the white vote.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

@ dalillama

That’s why I thought of you when I read it; and that’s the Guardian.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

@ dalillama

I’ve just realised ‘White elephant in the room’ is a cool title for an article. Although it’s a bit obvious I suppose. You know if anyone’s used it yet?

Dalillama : Shepherd of Demonic Crocodiles.
Dalillama : Shepherd of Demonic Crocodiles.
3 years ago

Not that I’m aware of.

eli
eli
3 years ago

@Hambeast

I didn’t mean to single out older people necessarily, but just say it’s not just young dudes, although they may be more prevalent on the internet.

I believe Scildfreja brought up Brave New World. I stayed over at my aunt’s house many years ago now, but pulled that book off the bookshelf and started reading it and asked if I could take it with me to finish it, that I would bring it back and she said yes. When we talked about it after I returned it, I felt there was no way we had read the same book. I felt like maybe she hadn’t read it at all. Like she thought it was about bad people and how they should be punished for the good of good people.

So I was just trying to point out that while young dudes may be loud on the internet, that this ‘problem,’ and I put it in scare quotes because…

Ok, not sure how to say it. I’m always told I’m the problem because I always see the subtext. And then it’s denied and then I’m called names. It’s been a really spectacularly rough day today.

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

@eli
Sorry you’re having a rough day. 🙁

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
3 years ago

<3 Eli. You deserve to do something nice for yourself! I hope tomorrow is better. You go ahead and vent all you like!

You bring up a really good point though, about the problem you're facing – you're the problem because you're the one talking about the subtext and the issues.

It's the same problem writ large across western society right now. They shout at us "leftists" (God I hate that term) for bringing up "Identity politics". We’re the racists, the sexists, because we’re the ones pointing out that there are things going on that no one’s confronting. They can’t see beneath the surface for whatever reason, so they think we’re trying to get some sort of advantage over them by calling them names.

That seems to be it? I don’t know – it seems pretty explicative. It’d be interesting to do a study which asks participants to a) watch a short film with a subtext, b) ask them what they thought the themes of the film were, and c) ask them their opinions on racism, sexism and politics are. Just a guess, but my H1 on that is that we’d see a correlation between sexism/racism/bigotry and an inability to see subtext.

Gosh, I wonder what my budget is gonna be this summer?

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

It bleeds into other areas, too. The person who complains to HR about sexual harassment is just a troublemaker. The disabled person asking for accommodation is being unreasonable. Etc. If you don’t go along with the status quo, you’re the problem. It can’t be that the way things were needed fixing because it’s working just fine for everyone else (so they think).

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
3 years ago

yeah, exactly, @kupo. The question is whether they think everything’s fine because of a lack of imagination – they’re just incapable (or haven’t been trained) of feeling empathy, because they can’t imagine what the life of those other people could be like.

If that’s the case, you can do things to help – you can encourage creativity, imagination, empathy-building, etc. It’s an informative thing to know at least!

rogue angel
rogue angel
3 years ago

@ Hambeast and dlouwe: count me in when it comes to not looking for or finding subtext. *blushes*

I was the kid that even my own parents said never had “street smarts”. Someone said something in a confident, articulate way? I believed it. In my case, I’d been the classic hides-in-books type without much experience in dealing with people, but I even took what I read at face value. (There would’ve been a picture of a younger me next to the word “naïve” in the dictionary.) It took me until my thirties to work out that it was even necessary to look for subtext, context, or shades of meaning. In my case, it wasn’t that I didn’t notice the details or subtle cues or times when things didn’t “feel” right; it was that I didn’t consider them important. (Realizing the importance of those in hindsight, however? Been there.)

@ Scildfreja: I’ve probably been somewhat like the guy you described, except without the defensiveness. My response as a younger adult might’ve been equal parts surprise, confusion, and cluelessness w/r/t the movie. (The last time I saw The Matrix, in my twenties, I’d only gotten as far as working out that the plot revolved around Neo freeing his mind from some sort of authority’s control. Maybe I was halfway there?) As far as an awareness of oppression and privilege goes, it took me a long time to get even the general idea–probably too long. It took a lot of blatant statements before Captain Oblivious here started noticing things like racial profiling and class-based privilege.

guest
guest
3 years ago

Here’s an unbirthday gift for all of those ‘science is always perfect and right all the time’ dudes:

https://www.amazon.com/Golem-Should-About-Science-Classics/dp/1107604656

Anarchonist
Anarchonist
3 years ago

So much interesting discussion in this thread! I’m glad the Folding Ideas video was linked, that is one of my favorite takes on the #GG debacle.

I have my own theories on the subtext discussion that come close to many of the ideas presented here. They have to do with the unwillingness of certain people, especially those who subscribe to right-wing policies, to see “evil” as punishable first and foremost (which is why right-wingers are big on punishment, not rehabilitation, for law-breakers). Their black-and-white view of the world prevents them from seeing nuance and realizing that even decent people can have bad thoughts and problematic views. Instead, they decide to shoot the messenger, the person who points out the problematic things in the first place. The unwillingness to improve is a byproduct of a worldview where being wrong is so undesirable that one has to try to alter reality rather than admit to one’s mistakes. Hence, the Trump administration.

@kupo

Ok, so I decided to read but only got about as far as this part. It’s an advantage to have boys? How the fuck so? Please, explain to my ladybrain why I should find it to be an advantage to have a boy if I love in a world where men beat women regularly? And an advantage that only comes to be once one has already reproduced can’t influence selection, so…

The idea that a man’s ability to produce a male heir (remember, the child is fully the cis man’s product, the cis woman is just the soil for the man’s seed and uggggh I feel dirty even typing this) directly correlates with violence and sexual virility as disgusting bedfellows are really staples of an environment marinated in toxic masculinity, aren’t they? The myth about men’s abusive qualities being what attracts women to men in the first place are just a by-the-by in a society where someone occasionally asks: “well, what do women actually want?” It’s just so sickening.

Moocow
3 years ago

@WWTH

Yeah, that evopsych “scientist” who made that claim is the same one who argued that black women are ugly because science. So he’s pretty much the worst.

I learned about him for the first time just a few weeks ago when I need some help from awesome mammotheers (I forget if you were part of that) to debunk an evo-psych-thumping reddit troll I was arguing with. His article was on how ‘boy monkeys have a preference for wheeled toys therefore this proves genders differences are natural’, not as offensive as this crap, but just as unscientific.

Whilst the asshat turned out to be arguing in bad faith, I did learn a lot about the flaws in the stupid ‘monkeys with toys’ experiments.

@Gussie Jives

I think Kootiepatra’s on to it there. With a lot of the GamerGate meltdowns throughout the internet, the rank and file gamers who through their lot in with the movement were upset that somehow feminists and cultural critics like Anita Sarkeesian were making value judgments about them due to their enjoyment of particular games.

I can corroborate. I think they also had an intense fear of being caled sexist, cuz nobody likes a sexist (exact same thing with alt right and racists) Some of the most devastating arguments I used vs GGers were:

“It’s possible to like a video game and still criticize it”
“Actually Anita Sarkeesian never said that”
And “Nostalgia Chick did a feminist critique of 90s cartoons called ‘the smurfette principle’, how is that any different from Anita Sakreesian’s video?”

Fuck, why did I not realize that arguments with GGers would foreshadow the rise of America Fascism in politics? What a world…