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Friday Night Cat Hat Open Thread

Pussy hat, deluxe model

Hey, how about a nice Friday night non-Trump open thread for not talking about Trump? TA DA. No trolls, Trump fans, etc.

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Jesalin
Jesalin
4 years ago

Anti-Trump cartoon by Vancouver artist goes viral

http://globalnews.ca/news/3226730/anti-trump-cartoon-by-vancouver-artist-goes-viral/

The right-wing hypocrisy on this should be amazing.

Also, given that the artist is a woman, I know what her inbox is going to be full of.

Also a bit of an update:

I mentioned a while back that I had an MRI done. Apparently I have an approx. 4mm micro-adenoma on my pituitary. It’s probably the reason my prolactin level is a bit high. I have an appointment soon to see the endocrinologist, I’m expecting to find out more then.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
4 years ago

I can’t even with this one guy at work. He hates his job and he thinks his co-workers (which would include me) are untrustworthy and terrible. He complained that his duties were monotonous, and when he was switched to a different team, he complained about that, too.

Today I was told to involve him in a big project we are working on, and he whined the whole time and expected me to whine with him. Nobody is making him do this; this project is something we are all doing in our very thin spare time. Nobody is forced to work on it. The project is big and sexy, and I guess he thinks the unsexy parts like collating handouts will just do themselves or something? That rooms set themselves up and break themselves down, or that gnomes come do it?

Like, if you want to be involved, you need to be involved, and not just for the sexy parts. You know who did some of the sexy work this week? That would be the person who sometimes takes notes and helps check people into meetings, namely me. You know who didn’t? The people who have been waiting for the sexy parts of the project to roll around and have missed out on getting into the insider club.

So I’m fed up with this dude at work. I’m going to call him Whiny Butt from now on, which used to be my nickname for my cat, but he whines way more than the cat does.

Falconer
Falconer
4 years ago

Good luck, Jesalin!

The twins got pedal bikes this week, and S took to hers right away, but A feels like he’s up too high.

We also need to work on braking.

On the other hand, S hasn’t got in the tub this whole week of her own volition. She’s scared of going down the drain, we think.

Flora
Flora
4 years ago

Jesalin, I hope your doctor has excellent news for you. Prolactinomas tend to be very manageable with medication/watch-and-wait. Particularly little ones like the one you have.

TW: fertility stuff, pregnancy loss, major TL:DR

I’m in a bit of a bad headspace. I’m in my early 30s and after much discussion my husband and I decided to try to get pregnant. Fast forward a year, still nothing, so our family MD refers us to the fertility clinic. They order the investigations but before I can finish the last one, we find out I’m pregnant. I have mixed feelings about it in the first place, as I worry a lot about the impact on my career, the usual anxieties, etc. Still, I’m a physician so I had a pretty pragmatic view of things, so when I started bleeding and having pain on Christmas Eve I wasn’t really upset, just matter-of-fact in getting myself to the ER for an evaluation. Things were reassuring there, and they detected a heartbeat on my ultrasound on New Year’s Eve.

I miscarried January 2nd.

It was the worst thing I have ever experienced. Everyone I’ve helped through a miscarriage in my professional life has had gentle, slow miscarriages that they described as “a heavy period.” Instead, I had hours of intense contractions – the sort that I see in the women we admit to the L&D ward. 10/10 pain aside (would not buy again), the emotional impact after has been devastating for me. It has been over 4 weeks and I am intellectually ready to be over it, but I am exhausted and crying and generally a train wreck. I didn’t think I was emotionally attached – I knew this was a reasonable probability, so we referred to it as “the embryo” and didn’t even talk about talking about names. I’ve grieved less over the loss of loved family members. This is just, another beast entirely. (And yes, my health care team has evaluated me for depression. This is not that.)

Going through all of this in the context of being exhausted by Trumpism and it’s side effects here in Canada, while trying to be a good advocate, while trying to be a good physician, while trying to be a good wife, I’m running at a deficit. And then yesterday we had the follow up fertility clinic appointment that I’d booked before the pregnancy. I could have cancelled it, but it would have been three months to get another. The investigations didn’t tell me anything I didn’t already know (uncomplicated PCOS), but there’s rumours of a medication shortage, which would mean using the second line drugs, which have a much higher rate of multiple pregnancies, something I am abjectly terrified of. And meanwhile through all of this I know my brain and my body are not even close to ready, and I feel like the clinic is just shoving me through the process, even though they’re aware of everything I’ve just been through.

I will finish the investigations the wanted me to do, but I just don’t know that I can go through with starting fertility treatments. Even the medication alone is undignified – the timing, and testing, and all the everything makes me feel less human and more broodmare. I was meant to be approaching my second trimster by now, and instead I’m looking up costs to the various ovary stimulating drugs and the risk-benefits of taking metformin, and crying over absolutely nothing at all.

I know this is what I signed up for, and that falling into the 5-8% of miscarriages that happen after a fetal heart rate is detected is a statistical unlikelihood that I had no control over, and I know this is all happening in the context of a world where people are literally fighting for their lives and their livelihoods, but… it just sucks. And if I have to hear another saccrine, sanitized platitude about “divine plans” and “Rainbow babies” I swear my pacifist fist will meet somebody in the skull with zero regrets. I am hurting, physically, mentally, emotionally, because nature is unsympathetic to our desires and needs. I can deal with the exhaustion, I can deal with pain. I don’t want to be grieving anymore. I don’t want to care anymore. But here I am.

Nequam
Nequam
4 years ago

Flora: Though I am childless by choice, will a simple “I’m sorry for your loss” be all right?

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
4 years ago

@Flora, I’m so sorry <3 That's so difficult. Don't you feel bad for a second about not being 'good enough' to keep up with all of the ridiculous nonsense going on in the world. The fact that you're able to been notice at all makes you a hero. Just keep on goin', and let yourself rest or grieve or whatever-you-need-to-do without feeling guilty for it, okay? And you can talk about it, or talk about other things, or whatever you like in this space, you know that. Take care of yourself <3

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
4 years ago

Canadian dorkery here. It’s Black History Month up here in Alberta, too, and I wanted to share this mostly because it’s narrated by MLA David Shepherd (Edmonton Central). I just really like him. He’s a big dork – wears a goofy bow tie and fancy suit to the Legislature – but he’s so damn fierce. Love it. Makes me want to move back to Edmonton.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9Q-viq1zKU

And here he is laying into the Wildrose:

PaganReader
4 years ago

@Flora
I am so sorry for what you are going through right now. Do you have a therapist you can talk to?

Flora
Flora
4 years ago

Thanks guys. For a very long time my plan was to also remain childless by choice, so there are a lot of complex emotions I have around this. I was never going to be the person who has a YouTube worthy reaction to a positive pregnancy test. It makes it all the more disconcerting that I am grieving so much.

And intellectually I know that I need to put my own mask on before I help those travelling with me, but damn, I would have had an easier time of this if communities I care deeply about serving weren’t feeling such shockwaves.

ETA: I do have a counsellor that I see. I had a session with him earlier this week, and it was good, but very painful. Normally I come out of sessions recharged, instead I was just more drained. Been seeing him for years (we get free sessions through the medical college because too many MDs commit suciide) and never have I ever cried through an entire hour. Not after my mother disowned me, not after I thought I was going to lose my career.

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
4 years ago

woops. THIS is Mr Shepherd laying into the Wildrose. It’s pretty fun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLAhmO–9pg

@Flora, my cousin went through the same thing. It’s so difficult. Don’t feel bad, or at least try to not feel too bad. Let it go when you are able to. Do what you can, when you can! <3

Flora
Flora
4 years ago

@Scildfreja
Laying the smack down on the Wildrose always makes me feel better. I’ve seen those “Friends of Science” billboards. Uggggghhh

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
4 years ago

@Flora, I’ve tussled with the “Friends of Science” before, over Twitter. They’re pretty much as immune to reason as one might expect.

(For those not in the know, the FoS is an Albertan conservative ‘think-tank’ of retired engineers paid for by oil companies to distribute climate change denial in the form of bullshit whitepapers and misleading statistics.)

They’re a fun group. It’s fun watching them squirm when you confront them with their obvious and unavoidable ties to the oil and gas industry. Wish they could be shut down for the liars that they are, though.

Jesalin
Jesalin
4 years ago

@Flora

I’m so very sorry to hear that! *hugs* if you want them.

To quote Scildfreja:

@Flora, I’m so sorry <3 That's so difficult. Don't you feel bad for a second about not being 'good enough' to keep up with all of the ridiculous nonsense going on in the world. The fact that you're able to been notice at all makes you a hero. Just keep on goin', and let yourself rest or grieve or whatever-you-need-to-do without feeling guilty for it, okay? And you can talk about it, or talk about other things, or whatever you like in this space, you know that. Take care of yourself <3

Seconded! (and I’m glad I’m able to quote that because I kinda suck at expressing myself well online *insert self-deprecating laugh*)

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Hugs, Flora and seconding Scildfreja. You don’t need permission to grieve for as long as you need to. It’s not a who has it worst contest.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I guess he thinks the unsexy parts like collating handouts will just do themselves or something?

Just hazarding a guess here, but it’s probably a good guess just based on whiny and guy.

Perhaps he thinks it’s the job of the women in the office to do the unsexy jobs?

Rhuu
Rhuu
4 years ago

@Flora: I am sorry for your loss. I dislike it when people talk about ‘divine plans’ as well… It seems to diminish the permission we should just *have* to feel what we’re feeling and process the emotions.

Perhaps it would be a comfort to someone who was very religious. I think I’d prefer to err on the side of “Do you need a supper? I can bring one over on x night, if that would be helpful.”*

I’m glad you have someone to talk to.

*I read a very good article about how it helps to have concrete suggestions to offer, like cleaning a house or bringing food or something, rather than asking someone what they need. Now the person who is going through something needs to think of something for *me* to do, since I was so nice to offer. And it has to be something that I can do, that won’t take too much time, but enough time that I’ll feel like I contributed…

Ugh. Feelings are complicated and hard and I would like to send you some internet hugs, if you would like. And the memories of a donair pizza from a little place just outside of Edmonton, since you seem to be Albertan.

@PoM: Why do people not understand that you have to do the work, ALL THE WORK, to get to do the fun stuff? The job I had prior to this one had some slow times sometimes, and I would be lent out to other departments who needed help. Usually to one specific one, who was overworked and didn’t have enough people to complete all the work that they had to do. It wasn’t fun, and neither of us really liked doing it, but we were being paid and people depended on our work, so we did it well.

Later that person moved on to a much cooler department, and I was able to follow along when they needed help. It was a very lucky break for me, because now I have two specific and in demand skills. But it was only because the fella I was helping out with the very unsexy job knew I would do the work, even if it was not fun.

I’m sorry you have to deal with such a whiny jerk. I’m glad it sounds like you got to do some of the cool parts of the job while he was waiting on the sidelines, though!

I hope he steps on a couple of lego pieces he didn’t see, and then can’t find.

mildlymagnificent
mildlymagnificent
4 years ago

Flora, I did much the same as you at much the same age. I hadn’t been interested in having children at all. But gradually came round to husband’s view that it would be a good idea. After 18 months I eventually got pregnant, then miscarried at 3 months – about 2 days after I’d bitten the bullet and told my sister I was pregnant. Fortunately (or not) I was temporarily working out of my usual job and workplace at the time so I had a lot of personal support from the very small, fairly close-knit and supportive group of people there who were all friends.

After a couple of weeks I went back to my usual, large, fairly impersonal workplace so that was, now I look back on it, a kind of break. The miscarriage was back there along with that completely different job. Didn’t help much I suppose, I was absolutely shattered for months – maybe it would have been worse if I hadn’t had that “break”. I really don’t think I could have coped with anyone urging me on to try a fertility treatment. People just left us pretty well alone to make up our own minds about when-whether-how we would start trying again.

Eventually, I got pregnant again after a year or so and had a daughter. Then another one nearly 3 years after that. I don’t know whether I would have been one of those people who constantly remember the one they lost. My pregnancies were a bit difficult and the first baby was a 24/7, absolutely exhausting, trial – reflux until she walked. So any memory banks were pretty well swamped. I’m only ever reminded by things that hit me out of the blue – like younger daughter telling me, when she was 20ish, that she’d always wanted an older brother. I’d never even thought about whether it had been a boy or a girl, so that raised, rather than revived, a whole lot of things because I’d not dealt with them at the time.

One way or another, some time or another, we learn to live with it. I never felt the need for a grave or any other memorial – you might feel differently. “Getting over it” is a completely stupid idea and I hereby grant you permission to tell any family-friends-colleagues-professionals that I said so.

You and your husband – and you two alone – should decide how and when you want to try again. If needs be, you should recruit him as a shoulder-to-shoulder reinforcement or back up if you feel that you’re being pressured by the clinic. You’re in your early 30s, not your 40s. This is _not_ urgent in the way it might be in several years time. I was almost 37 by the time my second child was born. You have time enough for 2 or 3 children before you’re 40 if you want them and are lucky enough to get pregnant when you want.

Have you considered a break, even a short one, from work? This is one of those times when being a good doctor, a good advocate, a good wife might mean giving yourself some physical, emotional or spiritual nourishment instead of, rather than in addition to, getting on with those tasks and obligations even for a few days. Of course, that might mean sleeping for 3 days for some people. I was thinking more along the lines of a weekend at a spa or a cooking/carpentry/scuba diving/learn to sing course. Maybe a knitting marathon or a 2 day remote camping adventure or a shop-a-holic breakout with an old friend. Don’t want to decide? Do something your husband suggests – let him take the lead for a break from overthinking stuff yourself.

Whether you decide on a circuit-breaker or to plod on as you are, remember you will get through it one way or another. The first trimester of your next pregnancy, whenever it comes, will be bloody nerve-wracking, but you’ll get through that too. (The relief of getting pregnant seems to dominate that feeling. It tends to be a few random late night what-if moments rather than a constant worry. At least for me it was.)

Take care of yourself. We’re here if you need us.

abars01
abars01
4 years ago

So here in Australia, the inaugural game of the new women’s division of the Australian Football League was a big success – the stadium sold out and spectators had to be turned away. A pretty piddling, peripheral feminist victory, considering everything that’s happening in the world right now, but these days, I take whatever I can get.

Ledasmom
Ledasmom
4 years ago

Flora, I am so sorry. I had an early miscarriage in between my two sons. I think it was not so bad for me emotionally because I had a child at that point, but physically it was hard. Very painful and bloody. Nobody seems to talk about how bad it can be physically.
Have your doctors confirmed that it was complete with no placenta retained? I apologize for being nosy, but I did retain placenta and had to have a D+C after months of bleeding resulting in symptomatic anemia. Take care of yourself. It was my experience that the emotional effects of the hormonal changes from a miscarriage can be very strange. Give yourself plenty of time.

Dormousing_it (formerly RoscoeTCat)
Dormousing_it (formerly RoscoeTCat)
4 years ago

Flora, I echo everyone in this thread. My deepest sympathies. You’re still young. The window hasn’t yet shut, metaphorically speaking.

I don’t think anyone who hasn’t experienced what you have, can really, truly understand.

Ginormica
Ginormica
4 years ago

@Flora

Everything mildlymagnificent said. I went through four years of infertility treatment and had a miscarriage after our second IUI attempt had resulted in a brief pregnancy. It was one of the most awful times of my life. People around you who haven’t gone through this don’t understand, but they feel they have to say something, hence the stupid remarks about divine plans or how maybe you just need to relax or take a vacation. A family member I loved very much said to me that one of the women in her family had had a stillbirth, which was much worse than “just” having a miscarriage. Needless to say, that did not make me feel any better. What did help was going to group counseling with a therapist recommended by Resolve, the infertility advocacy group. We were fortunate in that our treatments eventually worked and I got pregnant, but it was a difficult, grueling experience to go through. Please take care of yourself and allow all the time you need to grieve.

kupo
kupo
4 years ago

@Flora
Hugs. Grieving takes time, and it’s not up to anyone to tell you how long it should take.

Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
4 years ago

I got a much needed holiday in the form of a week-long Final Fantasy XV binge – finally got me hands on it. I’ve still got one item on my to-murder list, the Adamantoise (holy shit, I mean I was used them tortoises being pretty big, but this one dwarfs the rest of the series) and then I guess I’ll have to go back to boredom-land where no one harasses me to turn the car around and go back to take a group picture with that landmark we camped by 15 minutes ago.

Been somewhat keeping up with what’s going on in Trumpland, and it don’t look pretty. Guys, take care of yourselves, alright.

rugbyyogi
rugbyyogi
4 years ago

Flora – I’m really sorry – as others have said, I’m pretty sure those who haven’t gone through it can’t understand, and I haven’t.

__

My ex is being horrible. Really awful. I still don’t know why I expected him to not be as abusive after we weren’t living under the same roof. Hope triumphing over experience, I guess.

After a trip to the pub this week I bought a set of cutlery on eBay. It arrived this morning. It was advertised as stainless steel but turned out to be plate. I’m so disappointed. 🙁 It’s gorgeous though. I was tired of mismatched cutlery (when my ex left he took most of the spoons…)

Tonight my son and I ate from Wedgwood bone china (my everyday, I picked up a huge number of plates at a carboot sale for a tenner and in a pattern that I love) and vintage German cutlery. I need to figure out a way to use this stuff on a regular basis. It makes me happy to eat off beautiful tableware.

GardenGallivant
GardenGallivant
4 years ago

Flora, you have my deepest sympathies. As others said do what you need for the time being to grieve and heal. It isn’t anything you need to rush, there can’t be a timetable to meet in order to complete grieving. You will need time to want another pregnancy.
I had an ectopic pregnancy rather than a miscarriage but the loss after the hope and expectancy was a so painful. I remember trying to ask if the fallopian tube could just be tucked into the uterus so the placenta might grow on to embed into the uterine wall in addition to the tube. I just didn’t want to terminate the pregnancy.
The difference with an ectopic is it is major abdominal surgery to reach and remove the damage the out of place pregnancy causes. I had eight weeks to recover and grieve before returning to work. Further working in a lab meant no divine plan type of comments.
Since I was 40 I tried the fertility treatment immediately but discovered I could not cope with the hormone roller coaster so soon. I did one round but chose not to try again because I had not given myself time since I felt I did not have it. I still struggle a bit more than 20 years on but my husband has children so I now have two grandchildren. I was surprised how much this helped me deal with everything.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Rugbyogi,
Sorry about your ex. He’ll probably never change, but hopefully, the older your son gets, the less you’ll have to see him.

I have my grandmother’s china. It’s from occupied Japan. Almost the whole set is intact too. Only one serving boat has a broken piece. It’s probably worth decent money. Not that I would ever sell it. I feel like it should be used. But I’m afraid to. Plus, I never really have people over.

Flora
Flora
4 years ago

Thanks to everyone for your kind words. My friends are able to say all the right things, but you are all right in saying that it’s impossible to understand until you’ve experienced it. Hearing your stories is a healing balm. Everyone’s words are so appreciated. I know I don’t need anybody’s permission to grieve but it really helps to hear it anyway.

I’ve pulled back from stuff at work and dropped what I could. Leave isn’t completely out of the question, but I find joy in my work. It’s not the healthiest coping mechanism, but I’m not doing anything apart from the mandatory stuff so I don’t work myself to the bone, just enough to give me purpose and meaning.

@Ledasmom, I’m sure there’s nothing retained. I would have had symptoms by now and I have been hawkeyed for them. D&Cs aren’t fun, I was fortunate for everything to pass quickly and intact. I have enough psychological horror from passing the gestational sac, I can’t imagine how much worse it would have been to pass it in pieces.

@Gallivant, I’m high risk for an ectopic, and that is part of my fear about another pregnancy. I was so relieved when the ultrasound showed a pregnancy that was both single and intrauterine. Going back to the beginning means fighting those odds all over again, in addition to the infertilty ones. It’s a tough call, and I don’t have stepchildren, but we do have a bunch of pets, so that’s also good enough for me if that’s what happens.

@mildlymagnificent, your words moved me so much. I’ve tried many things as distractions, lots of intentional self-care, but it’s been a flotation device more than a rescue. As my psychologist reminded me, often the only way out is through, so here I am. I’m not okay, but I will be okay.

Faerie Bard
Faerie Bard
4 years ago

Flora, I’m sorry for your loss. I hope you find ways to work through the grief. I have PCOS too, it sucks.

——

I have been dealing with car repairs the last couple days, fortunately not something too expensive this time. I’m also starting to get the spring gardening bug, and am in planning mode for an herb garden and some raised garden beds for raspberry bushes.

guest
guest
4 years ago

What an excuse not to get out of bed this morning…We Love Economic History, part 2 of 3:

http://weloveeconomichistory.blogspot.co.uk/

eli, I’m interested in your project; are you happy to share any details? I specialise in English history, but I know lots of people are working on social networks now all over the world–am trying to remember the person who’s writing about jewellery making in Italy so I can mention to someone else, but am too lazy to trawl back through the issues of Business History to find the review….

rugbyyogi
rugbyyogi
4 years ago

@weirwoodtreehugger

There are two ways to enjoy beautiful China. One is to eat off it and the other is to look at it. I have some dishes from Finland that I almost never use, but they’re on display.

The Wedgwood stuff that I bought has no embellishments, so it goes nicely through the dishwasher and I paid so little for it for the number of plates I got that I actually don’t stress about it. I like it, but I have about 20 dinner plates. To put it in perspective, you can pay almost as much per plate for the really nice disposable stuff. It’s much harder to use the sentimental and irreplaceable on a regular basis.

Ledasmom
Ledasmom
4 years ago

Flora: Ah, good. Sorry to be a noodge about it, but literally the only symptom I had was prolonged bleeding – not even very much at a time – for several months, and then not being able to go for a walk without having to sit down for a while after. I was lucky enough not to pass anything recognizable. Big sympathies there.
I do not know if anyone else finds this amusing, but back when it happened, I had to cancel dental work because I was having an urgent D&C done. It seemed to me that, in a better-organized world, the dental could have been taken care of while I was out. I hate having hands in my mouth.

eli
eli
4 years ago

@guest

I’ll pop over soonish and share more. I was going on long enough about it and needed to settle down and try to get a little rest for today. Today’s my big work day. My energy after is always hard to predict, so it may or may not be today.

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
4 years ago

I hope you don’t mind, but this is one of the very few places where you’ll understand why I’m so bone-deep-disappointed and probably feeling even more gutted than I should; the richest and most successful (if their emails are to be believed; we haven’t met for years) of my siblings – followed at least in part by the next-most – not only thinks Trump is better than Clinton (yeah, better for whom?), he also turns out to be an anthropogenic-climate-change-denialist. jesus h christ on a bike. These are people I grew up loving, people with access to all the information in the world, just about, and I see them (well, mostly 1, but t’other is right there) spouting clichéd right-wing verbiage … it kind of makes me want to cry, tbh. They were different once.
Oh, and of course they also think anyone who thinks otherwise is stupid/naive/living in a bubble etc. etc. etc., which is always nice. They are smart, you see, and have degrees, money etc. to prove it.
I know a lot of you have been there :-s
(The other siblings disagree, I’m glad to see at least, and quelle coïncidence they are the ones with the more relevant scientific background.)

Totally utterly and completely OT and trivial: do any Brits here happen to be following the fluffy history-and-food prog. that is (afaik – I confess I’ve never seen it yet) “Back in time (for Dinner)” on BBC2? (a modern family is “transported” to different periods of history; they exclaim in amazement at period food and quaint household technology). Spawn#2 (completely anonymous and invisible of course) one of the bunch who did the background music for next ep tomorrow 🙂
Not a big deal (not even a small one, in fact!) but I’m clutching at straws of cheer so I’ll take what I can get right now :-s

guest
guest
4 years ago

@opposablethumbs I don’t know if it helps any to think of it this way, but I’ve come to understand that falling for ‘Trumpism’ is like getting caught in an abusive relationship–it can happen to anyone, smart or not, successful or not, and we’re fooling ourselves if we think these things make us immune, as abusers are very very good at manipulating and isolating. It was only dumb luck that kept me, for example, out of the hands of an abuser I used to know–to this day I wonder how I managed to escape.

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
4 years ago

@guest, I certainly agree that “smart” is not necessarily any defence at all against abusive dynamics. Sometimes if anything it can lull you into a false sense of security precisely because you think it can’t happen to smart people, even. (I don’t know if that plays in sibling’s case, though :-s )

I’m very glad you had that luck, regardless of whether or not it was really ‘only dumb’

Thank you for linking to the excellent post on Adam Smith! I had no idea that his elevation to ultimate authority by the extreme right was so mired in misconceptions.

Rhuu
Rhuu
4 years ago

@guest: i’m idly working on some world building right now, and your example of cloth production really made me think about how things could be produced within what is basically a ‘web’ of interconnected businesses.

There is something somewhat similar in vfx production, i believe. Studios can specialise in very specific things, with multiple studios doing different things. (I’m only adjacent to the field, so i don’t have any specific examples but from what i understand) studio a does cloth simulation, studio b does water etc.

The difference is that instead of a chain as you described, with a product going through different stages of completion, it is coming from the same employer that it will eventually go to.

So, in fact, nothing like what you described. This situation is more like hiring specialists! Hmmmmm.

(If i hadn’t labouriously typed this out on my phone, i probably wouldn’t post it, since now i feel silly. 6___9)

I did try to reply on your blog, but my phone won’t open up the reply thing. :C

Also i enjoyed your second post! Might i suggest condensing your discussion with Alan and adding it? As well as your ‘part 1’.

I might have been unreasonably excited when you mentioned me.

Oh! What you described with the rich person wanting to convince everyone that they are rich is basically exactly what i understand ‘virtue signalling’ to be. Perhaps the strong belief in applying the concepts of capitalism as explained by Adam Smith is part of the reason they think virtue signalling is a thing. We all want to be rich, right? And if this is how the rich people behave then…

Throw in that whole ‘people who have money are more just than those without’ belief we seem to be caught up in, and you have a nice mess.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

I’m really loving guest‘s teaching. It’s not just that I’m learning so much, it’s finding out that what little I thought I knew was so wrong. I’ve already got some fantastic “Well actually…” material for next time someone brings up some economics talking point. 🙂

It’s also stimulated so many jumping off points to other issues. It’s like a mental ‘wiki-walk’. The Chesterton stuff has already got me thinking about how PUAs treat women as ‘Ventler’ goods.

(Hope that’s the right word)

guest
guest
4 years ago

OK, just watched Pontypool…uh, thanks? to whoever on here recommended it…. No actually it was good, but I typically don’t watch horror movies so was a little freaked out. Interesting premise.

@Rhuu–good idea, I’ll go scoop up the stuff from the other post and put it on the blogger page, so it’s all in one place. Interesting idea about ‘this is how rich people look/act so I guess I need to do the same if I want people to think I’m rich, and of course I do’–I hadn’t thought of it that way before. It is a kind of twisted version of what Smith is describing, and of ‘virtue signalling’ (which I understand to mean ‘expressing a particular opinion because I want people to think I’m the kind of person who has this opinion, not because I actually have this opinion’).

@Alan Are you thinking of the crabby and eccentric economist Thorstein Veblen?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorstein_Veblen

Smith was way ahead of him on this…but of course we only remember Smith for being a libertarian mouthpiece, not for his insights into social behaviour 🙁

And thanks again for the compliments–I always tell people I don’t teach unless I’m a) paid or b) specifically asked, and then thanked–so thanks, I’m so pleased some of this stuff is resonating with people. I’ll do one more ‘we love economic history’ post, on wtf is up with joint-stock companies and how they destroyed the world, sometime soon.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ guest

Are you thinking of the crabby and eccentric economist Thorstein Veblen?

*Reads linked article*

Apparently ‘yes’ 🙂 (knew it had a ‘V’ in it)

Rhuu’s point about emulating the rich has also got me thinking. Of course it gets very complicated. There is the whole conspicuous consumption thing, as set out by some economist, Veblen I think his name was (nice one Al, think you bluffed your way through that). But the flipside is that whole ‘the rich dress poor and the poor dress rich’ thing and related concepts like ‘shabby chic’ and virtuous austerity. Wonder if it’s related to the ‘new money’ snobbery? And to go off at yet another tangent how ‘genteel’ poverty is acceptable in the upper classes but poor people’s poverty is down to them being lazy.

(just random thoughts for a Sunday afternoon)

guest
guest
4 years ago

@Alan that might be a specifically English (and possibly Silicon Valley, where I’m from) thing–I loved the series Grayson Perry did with the six tapestries he created about class in England (and got to see the actual tapestries last year–I was thrilled)–when he was doing ‘upper class’ I remember he stayed at someone’s stately home, and said something like ‘it’s dusty, worn down, threadbare, inconvenient, faded…but my entire DNA is programmed to love this as a symbol of the upper class’. Interesting point though that the only thing between fawning and censure over the state of a room like that is the class of its owner. That whole attitude hit home for me when I first looked at the place I’m currently living in–it’s run down, with worn stairs, scratched floors, cracked tiles and peeling paint, and my first reaction was ‘oh this is awful, someone hasn’t kept up the place, how can they even show it in this condition’–but of course that is what a house of this ‘stature’ is supposed to look like! I’m so middle class….

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ guest

*warning for name dropping* 🙂

I once got to spend a weekend in a real royal residence. Not the big formal ones, this was in a park where they actually lived when not ‘on duty’. What amazed us was how scruffy it was. Battered old couches with loads of mismatched hand knitted cushions, dog hair everywhere and muddy footprints in the hallway. Thing is, it was really comfy and relaxed. You could just kick off your muddy boots and walk around in your socks or slob with your feet up. But we did comment on the contrast with typical ‘Hyacinth Bucket’ (“It’s pronounced Bouquet!”) middle class pretentiousness.

On a completely unrelated topic, your comments about temple money triggered yet more musings. Are you familiar with how the Romans tried to boost the economy after Caligula got assassinated? He’d almost emptied the Treasury and, because he’d executed a lot of wealthy people to nab their cash, people had pretended to be poor so the economy stagnated. The new government did a lot of things that we’d now talk about in terms of ‘confidence’. Very visible public spending, tax breaks for business etc. But they also melted down votive offerings to the temples so they could mint a lot of new coinage. The theological justifications for that are quite amusing.

“So Apollo is like really Hermes, and Hermes is the patron deity of entrepreneurs and they do best in a booming market; so really we’re just doing what he’d have wanted. In fact, this is like honouring him really!”

eli
eli
4 years ago

Spawn#2 (completely anonymous and invisible of course) one of the bunch who did the background music for next ep tomorrow 🙂
Not a big deal (not even a small one, in fact!) but I’m clutching at straws of cheer so I’ll take what I can get right now :-s

AWESOME! Yes, this is a big deal! It’s always so much fun to be a part of something like that 🙂

@guest

I’ve gotta figure out how to comment at your new place. Does anyone know how to choose which google account I use to comment? One uses my real name, one is my job and one is the silly throw-away. I’d prefer to use the last if I can’t use eli.

nvm. I think I got it. And apparently I have a new blog? lol

eli
eli
4 years ago

No, I don’t have it. It’s not working. Or am I filling a moderation queue with “test” messages?

Moggie
Moggie
4 years ago

My car, 11 September 2005:

http://i.imgur.com/tyoZo31.jpg

Same car, tonight:

http://i.imgur.com/mLEvAf3.jpg

Looking forward to 2 July 2028!

Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, Agent of the FemiNest Collective; Keeper of a Hell Toupee
Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, Agent of the FemiNest Collective; Keeper of a Hell Toupee
4 years ago

Fast question for the French Mammothers:

There is a French comic I read years ago (like, mid-1980’s) that was about the adventures of a hamster. I recall the drawings done with pen and ink in a realistic style, and the pages having no dialogue in them. They were full-page strips that showed the hamster doing things like pulling a violin from his cheek pouches and playing it, just fun things like that.

I am wanting to say the hamster was named Herman, but that could be the artist’s name instead (a search for a French comic called Herman the Hamster turned up stuff that was done far more recently than the strip I’m thinking of). I would search my local library for the collection to see if they still had it (or search the Internet for a copy myself), but without knowing the name(s) I need, the search would take forever to do.

So, any ideas for what old comic is now demanding I go find it NAO?

guest
guest
4 years ago

@eli I’ve just set the blog comments over there to accept anonymous comments.

cheesynougats
cheesynougats
4 years ago

Well, I finally found out why there are so few game controllers for PC. Apparently there are emulators to use pretty much all console controllers on PC. I’m going to play Killer Instinct tonight. /happyface

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
4 years ago

I’ve been away for a few days and didn’t see this open thread until now. We have a visitor from the US this week!

Hugs to all who need it, for example Flora and opposablethumbs. Flora, it’s been 1 month. You can grieve a lot longer than 1 month for something like that. 🙁

@rugbyyogi

I’ve heard about your ex a few times before, and I fucking hate him. I don’t have any exea of my own worth hating, so I’m just gonna focus on yours if that’s ok.

—–

We’re hanging out at a sports bar tonight, watching the super bowl until 5am or so (?).

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
4 years ago

Thank you, eli 🙂 (I managed to get the broadcast date wrong – it’s tues 7, not tomorrow. It’s just a bit of fluff, but it’s a happy thought!
(especially because I’m still feeling stupidly bereft on realising my pro-Trump sibling must have been someone I don’t know for years, and I just never wanted to see it. I just remembered today, hearing him say years ago that thank goodness his daughter was good-looking, this was the only thing that really mattered for her, so she could get someone to marry her (she was a young teenager at the time) – knowing how much he values “smart”, I really thought he was kidding. I think now that he wasn’t).)
Sorry, I’m havering on again!

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
4 years ago

@opposablethumbs
I’m not sure I’ve ever experienced the word ‘havering’ outside of the context of the Proclaimers 😁

@guest
Just read the blog post. Sweeet! Also, reminds me of a description I came across of youknowwho: A guy jealously uncomfortable in his lack of ‘class’ and without any idea of how to genuinely mimic same. Thus, Eastern European trophy wives, solid gold thrones, and caked on tans. Everything he does is for vanity and in search of validation that will never come. He has always been deeply miserable in everything he does and is. The only thing that could make him less happy than all the power in the world is for it to be taken back from him in humiliation…

Or something like that 🙂