There’s so much going on that it’s hard to keep up. Like, oh, Trump issuing a de facto ban on Muslim immigrants on Holocaust Remembrance Day. So here’s an open thread to discuss all things Trump and Trump-related. No Trolls or Trump fans allowed.
The gif below pretty much captures what it’s like to live in this new weird world.
me + all my friends gathering around the bad news trough for another day of terrible bad news pic.twitter.com/d2yhE87IWP
— Anna Swartz (@Anna_Snackz) January 26, 2017
The one thing missing from this gif, of course, is the massive resistance that is growing to fight against the source of so much of this bad news.
Sometimes, though, the best thing for us resisters to do is to turn off the news for a day or two to keep ourselves healthy enough to resist, so here’s a non-Trump open thread for all your non-Trump needs.
Also not letting slide the “Thank you X and Y persons who were not shite like all the others who responded to me. Take this Royal Seal Of Approval and carry it proudly everywhere you go. Let it embiggen your spirits.”
Went too far with snark?
Well actual royal seal disagrees. It’s a perfectly crumulent seal.
http://i.imgur.com/MgBRINH.jpg
And if we don’t want racists on our side?
… So it was. Huh, not sure how I missed that.
So, not only is he even more of a barely-veiled misogynist than I thought, but he’s too fucking stupid to know how comment sections work. Utterly brilliant. *world’s most sarcastic thumbs up*
Heard. Somewhat understood, challenged to understand more.
Heard. Curious to see if I can understand.
That’s silly. “We’ve never touched on the issue, but if he writes this about X, he must think that about Y.”
Not for me to answer what you choose. That’s why I wrote “if”.
Heard. Really really heard, and definitely want will investigate more.
Mostly, but since not all the quotes where from him, I didn’t seem right to address him directly on those.
Funny that, though it wasn’t my original post, once challenged, my whole reason for continuing here has been an attempt to examine your claims.
Correlation is not causation. Didn’t consciously notice or remember that about EJ. Allow for unconsciously doing so…. Just seemed he was interested in helping me understand, and in listening back, so I addressed him.
@Woodtreehugger. Totally agree with just about every word of your post about “Deplorables”. But I never said it was THE cause of Trump. Just offered that I personally saw it be a huge motivator to action for some that I saw on the fence. Same with BLM, “I don’t pay any attention to them, I’m sick of being told I’m a racist” is what people told me when I tried to discuss it. If what I’ve offered is unhelpful or “gone over a million times”, then cool, I said my piece and you find it of no value. OK. Never said I had some magic wisdom, just put out a thought.
So I appreciate being able to read all the comments, sure have learned something and will continue to learn more. @EJ, I ain’t withholding wisdom, cause what I shared is all I got that I thought might be of value.
I’m super sick you guyse :C
http://iambrony.steeph.tp-radio.de/mlp/gif/tumblr_m4kl72jeC91rthxy9o1_400.gif
Between a weekend cram-packed with toddlers (where this illness came from), work, the recent news, the terror attack in QC, I’m just run flat today.
Had a dream last night, I dreamt that Trump was going to offer a government news service, since the “actual” news is just “fake news”. I dreamt that Bannon was the head of it, and that the Democrats just meekly accepted its creation.
I woke up and was all “Oh thank goodness, it was just a dream.” Then a moment later I realized that that’s pretty much in-line with what I expect to happen anyways. The news companies will fight it like hell, of course, and it won’t convince anyone who isn’t already pro-Trump. But it’ll consolidate his base and make them feel a legitimacy they do not deserve. So, that’s fun.
Pleased that the media and government up here is calling the QC attack for what it is, terrorism. I seems like the past week has started to shock people into awareness of the sleeping evil that’s been lurking in western society. Hopefully it continues to do so.
@MAWG, hi, welcome. I’m gonna be rambly, I apologize.
We’ve been told that we should be more gentle in our language when referring to aforementioned middle-aged-white-guys since the 1800’s. That we should not make enemies when we could be making friends. These are arguments that have been leveled at feminists since feminism was a thing. Turns out that the “be gentle and soft” strategy only works on an individual level, within the context of a relationship of trust. All of the gains feminism has made over the decades have been due to being loud and giving no ground.
Middle-aged-white-guys who are unable to recognize this aren’t progressives and aren’t allies. This applies broadly – people who are offended by the accusation of racism aren’t interested in confronting their own racism, people who are offended by being called sexist aren’t interested in confronting their own sexism.
“You should be nicer” is just a nicer way to say “shut up and stop being so angry.”
“You catch more flies with honey than vinegar” is also wrong. Turns out that flies are attracted to the vinegar in reality.
If you can’t recognize that middle-aged-white-guys have a racism and sexism problem, and that no amount of nice-being is gonna divest them of it, you need to go back to the literature. Just like no amount of gentle conversation was going to convince the US government to end the Vietnam war. You had to get loud. You had to go to jail.
Same situation. We gotta be loud, we gotta call a spade a spade, and we gotta let them know in no uncertain terms that their shit is unacceptable. Softness here is just an invitation for exploitation.
Right, I know how the word “if” works. In fact, it’s incredibly condescending of you to assume that my responding the way I did was because I don’t understand how that word works. Not only am I a former professional writer and editor, I’m a current software engineer and if I don’t understand how to use the word “if,” well, I’m in a whole world of pain.
if(poster.isCondescending){
return sarcasm;
}
But I’m asking, since you feel the need to tell us what to do, what you think we should be doing if we don’t want racists on our side. Because I know we’ve already discussed that here, and most of us do not. So you can kindly take your advice elsewhere.
MAWG,
The point just sailed right over your head, didn’t it?
The people who said they voted for Trump because they were sooooo offended at mean name calling Hillary or mean name calling BLM were never actually on the fence. They were always Trump supporters. They were just looking for a way to justify it to others in an attempt to avoid being seen as racist xenophobes who have no problem with men who boast about sexually assaulting women. If those weren’t the excuses, they’d find something else to latch onto. That they voted for Trump at all is evidence enough that the meanie pants non cishet white man progressives were actually correct in labelling them racist or sexist.
@numerobis:
It doesn’t help that, based on what I heard on the radio this morning, there was absolutely no guidance on this, and the TSA was as surprised by it as everybody else, which resulted in enforcement being completely scattershot and at different levels in different places. Some people got turned away, and some didn’t, because the people enforcing the rules had no idea what the actual rules were, and so a lot of it came down to ‘just how racist is that particular TSA officer, anyway?’
(One of my bosses is from Iran, though these days he’s a Canadian citizen and travels on a Canadian passport everywhere except when he’s going to Iran. He’s probably still going to have to think a bit more about travelling to the U.S. now.)
One of the bits mentioned on the radio this morning is that this is already affecting sports as well, as the NBA has a couple players born in Sudan, and there are concerns about what might happen to them after any games in Toronto. This is obviously not the biggest issue, but the complaints of billionaire sports team owners might have more impact on Trump than other complaints.
https://www.thestar.com/sports/2017/01/29/nba-and-nhl-look-for-answers-on-trumps-muslim-ban.html
Yeah. That’s what I’m hearing here, loud and clear.
For example, “BUT HER EMAILS,” which has been a paper-thin cover for “BUT HER COOTIES” since day one.
@Kupo
How could you possibly know what I assume? I wrote that “if” specifically to state that I DIDN’T assume to know your objectives or what you thought important…. not to school you on the usage of “if”.
Good grief!
@Scildfreja Unnýðnes
I hope you feel better soon
http://tc.sinaimg.cn/maxwidth.800/tc.service.weibo.com/mmbiz_qpic_cn/bac745bb3634edeece62a4a82d7f1db6.jpg
@MAWG:
What people do unconsciously is often the most telling thing about that person, especially when contrasted with what they say. For example, I notice that you’re avoiding telling us any stories about the protest movement back in the day, despite my prompting. This is probably unconscious on your part, too.
I hang around with a whole lot of political types, from Black Bloc anarchists to grizzled veteran liberals, and I have never once met anyone who passes up the opportunity to tell stories about protests. Instead, what you’re doing is acting as the emissary for white men and asking people not to be meanypantses. You have told us that you’re a progressive, but your observed actions say otherwise.
Consider this. Consider why I should continue being nice to you. Right now, I’m finding it hard to disagree with weirwoodtreehugger, although that’s often true.
@Scildfreja:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e117/jenatblesstheday/healing-penguins.gif
May the penguins of empirically-tested medicine nurse you back to health.
(Image copyright Jen Goode.)
@WASP
OK, so you failed again, but slightly less so this time. At this rate, you’ll be not shit in a few months. I believe in you! Luckily for you, I’m sick, bored, and off work today. So, fuck it, let’s explain basic social justice/progressive/intersectional premises to internet randos
1st tho, just a request, quit it with the ‘that isn’t what I meant, how could you possibly assume that’s what I meant?’ bullshit. People are assuming what you mean, cos we’ve seen this play before. It doesn’t matter what you meant to do or say, only what you actually do or say. This is maybe the most important lesson I can give. Eat it, breathe it, sleep it, make tender love to it. Got it? Moving on!
Middle aged, white men often come into discussions about the oppression levied by (#notall, but generally speaking) middle aged, white men, and dismiss what other people are saying. Usually by belittling the issues as unimportant and/or belittling the people in the convo for their youth. You did both. Of course, you did both. It’s expected you’d do both. We’ve seen this play out way too often not to read “Middle Aged, White Guy” and assume the worst. It’s possible to subvert the expectation, but no such luck in this case
It is common for people (usually middle aged, white guys) to ignore angry or frustrated responses by women as ‘catty hysterics’. Women can’t get fed up with bullshit, cos the culture views that as being overly emotional, whereas an angry man is righteously indignant and determined. And, as this is a feminist blog frequented mostly by women, it’s pretty fucked up to perpetuate that here. And you do so, by singling out ‘respectful’ comments as worthy of praise, without (I assume) examining why respect is even due to you in the 1st place
Nobody’s stopping you…
Sure, but
1)you expect our claims to be flawed to begin with
2)you expect that the way you go about examining is a good way to do so
3)you expect us to find your examinations worth welcoming
These are clear signs of… unexamined privilege
Aight, that should do as a primer. Follow @EJ’s advice. Do your homework, shed your defensive attitude, and come back later. Also, change your fuckin nym. If you can’t figure out why, it’s not worth explaining…
And why do you think he seemed more interested to you than the rest of us did? Less “Hysterical”, perhaps? Less “Emotional,” less “B***hy,” more “Logical,” more “Rational”?
Once is an accident, twice is a coincidence, every single time for as long as I’ve been posting here is go fuck yourself.
Yo, stopping in mid-house-move to share some dystopian Trump-related links.
Firstly, someone appears to have dug up Steve Bannon’s divorce paperwork, and it paints him as the textbook petty misogynist abuser.
https://theopporeport.com/2016/12/02/the-bannon-files-divorce-records-reveal-marital-discord-and-questionable-parenting/
This is the same Steve Bannon who Drumpf has appointed to the National Security Council – and thanks to something called the Disposition Matrix, this might give him the power to effectively black-bag any US citizen he considers an Enemy to the State.
http://trebaolofarabia.tumblr.com/post/156529028696/grumpsaesthetics-while-we-were-all-focusing-on
Finally, this Twitter reports that Drumpf has pre-emptively filed for a 2nd term, with terrible implications:
https://twitter.com/resisterhood/status/825435325535252480
Oh, and Russia’s state oil company has sold a 19.5% stake to an unidentified shareholder… which sounds close to the 19% they promised Drumpf, plus commission.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/carter-page-trump-russia-igor-sechin-dossier-2017-1?op=1&r=US&IR=T
Edit: Sorry, links didn’t work first time posting. Also, I realise that not all of these sources are necessarily reliable, but like, it’s still worth watching to see if it checks out.
Dalillama, would you mind if I asked Axe to marry me? He’s straight-up awesomesauce.
…time to crowdfund my spouse’s passport renewal so we can run for the Canadian border, I fear…
Seconding Axe.
We’re not stupid. We can infer meaning in someone’s post. Saying that inference is wrong because it’s not verbatim is just a complete troll move. It ignores how conversation works. We interpret meanings all the time. Non political example: I ask how you like my new haircut. You say “it’s interesting.” Does that mean my haircut is interesting? Most likely not. It means you don’t like but it would be impolite to say that. Just because it’s the internet, does not mean all conversation has to be painfully literal.
People who are trying to cooperate, to learn, to find common ground will have a charitable interpretation of the semantics of someones’ comments, and will ask for clarification when confused.
People who are trying to win an argument, present opposition, demonstrate superiority will have an uncharitable interpretation of the semantics of someones’ comments, and will use the vagaries inherent in semantics in order to discredit or weaken the positions they oppose.
It’s a tragedy that men are taught from a young age that the latter mode of interpretation is superior. I suspect it’s a root of the “white male rage” we’re talking about; it’s a source of frustration that we don’t acquiesce.
I also suspect that it’s a strong reason why a troll, MRA, racist, etc, will claim that progressives/feminists are all hypocritical. They point to these intentional misinterpretations, these points of un-charity, and use them to discredit the actual argument against them. One more tool in the pseudo-rationalists’ tool belt to protect their ego from the pain of being wrong.
Cracking that shell is difficult, and requires a relationship of trust which doesn’t exist in public discourse.
EDIT: Feel better soon, Axe! I was gonna try to find a solidarity “sick high five” gif, but it turns out that “sick high five” is a pretty bad imagesearch. Womp womp.
http://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/a2/84/3c/a2843c2396ab4c73bf465600fa9f1a0d.jpg
Let’s talk a little about inference and assumptions. We will use this as a case study:
I was going to just let this one go, because I’m not actually here for the purpose of holding some MAWG’s delicate little hand through something as basic as this, but MAWG has decided to pull this one out as his main argument now so here we are.
No mindreading required: I inferred, MAWG, that you need to get over yourself because you came in here and decided that your number 1 job in this comment section was to EXPLAIN TO US how we are doing progressivism wrong. We need to append “in your opinion” onto that, because we’re doing progressivism wrong only in your opinion. It looks pretty successful from my perspective, just FYI.
But your opinion is that we’re doing it wrong, and you decided that your opinion is so super-important and vital for us to know that you didn’t give a shit that our opinions might be different. You didn’t qualify anything that you said with “ymmv” or “IMHO” or “in my experience” or anything even closely related to any of those things. Your entire first post is declarative statements of fact and imperatives for us to follow. Then, with pulling out the age card, you intentionally position yourself as the authority that we are to look up to and obey, without knowing jack shit about the ages or experiences of the rest of us.
So, without mindreading anyone, I inferred that you need to get the fuck over yourself and learn that you are not the most important person on earth and your opinions don’t hold the most sway. Because your own words implied that you believe otherwise. If you didn’t want to come across that way, you could have apologized immediately for choosing your words wrong, but instead you elected to double-down over and over, and only barely are you now starting to not do that.
No assumptions are required on my part, just basic reading skills.
So get over yourself, MAWG, and stop condescending to others by saying they are assuming wrong things about you. You are saying things about yourself, and we are reading them. If you don’t want us to think these things about you, stop saying them. Don’t lecture us about how we are interrogating your text from the wrong perspective. kupo’s reading skills are fine.
@MAWG
So you didn’t mean to school me on the usage of the word “if” in your reply where you exasperatedly explain the reason why you used the word “if” despite no one questioning your meaning.
I get what you said. I get what the “if” is for. I don’t get why you’re acting all exasperated by my asking what if that condition isn’t met? What if we don’t want to win over racists? What if we don’t want or need your advice? What if we already know how to relate and be empathetic to people who don’t share our views and/or struggles? What if we’ve already tried that? What if, when we do that, we’re told it’s still not enough?
Because that’s the situation we’re in right now. We’ve tried all of that. We’ve been trying that thus entire time. All of those “ifs” above evaluate to true. And since we’ve already tried your “solution” and found it lacking and buggy as hell, we’re trying something else. And if you don’t want to be a part of planning something new, something different, something that might actually work for a change, then please get out and leave the conversation to people actually trying to make a difference.
You know, it’s really interesting to me how white men have the most tender and easily-bruised feelings of any demographic. I’ve been called every gendered slur in the book. I don’t care anymore what people call me. I know POC that have been called every racial slur in the book, and similarly no longer care.
But the moment someone says that white male rage is a problem – not white men, but the rage expressed with such damaging power by aggrieved white men – and a white man sees that statement, his feelings are hurt so badly he has to tell everyone how badly hurt he is. As if it’s our responsibility to soothe his boo-boo rather than his own responsibility to self-soothe.
For a group that positions themselves reliably as paragons of objectivity and rationality, white men sure are emotional and delicate.
@EJ
http://pa1.narvii.com/6304/a024b48ba968c6e96c6c375ca92ca07901cddd13_hq.gif
Yeah, I have that effect on people…
@Scildfreja
Puppy Hi5s are best Hi5s! Thank you, buddy! *thinks about hugs… but maybe a bad idea… cough cough*
@PoM
Slurs are whatever. How the fuck ever:
Yep. Like I said, heard that real loud, real clear and I’m really glad I heard it.
Cause I’ve been real scared by all the stuff coming down from the Right, and thought I had a thought that might be helpful in combating them.
But in various words, people here have said “THAT DOESN’T WORK!” So I’m thinking “Ok. Got it. That doesn’t work, so I better think about getting myself less Kumbaya and more In Your Face.”
I apologize for any disruption, sure as hell wasn’t my intent. And @EJ, I ain’t running from thoughts on how it was before, I’m not qualified to begin to presume to give advice on that. I’ve marched and protested, but I sure as heck didn’t lead them. All my stuff has been one-on-one, small group, individual help…. not heavy, overt political action.