There’s so much going on that it’s hard to keep up. Like, oh, Trump issuing a de facto ban on Muslim immigrants on Holocaust Remembrance Day. So here’s an open thread to discuss all things Trump and Trump-related. No Trolls or Trump fans allowed.
The gif below pretty much captures what it’s like to live in this new weird world.
me + all my friends gathering around the bad news trough for another day of terrible bad news pic.twitter.com/d2yhE87IWP
— Anna Swartz (@Anna_Snackz) January 26, 2017
The one thing missing from this gif, of course, is the massive resistance that is growing to fight against the source of so much of this bad news.
Sometimes, though, the best thing for us resisters to do is to turn off the news for a day or two to keep ourselves healthy enough to resist, so here’s a non-Trump open thread for all your non-Trump needs.
I was really hoping a middle aged white guy would come in here and splain why we’re all just being so divisive. Thanks, MAWG!
(Personally, I prefer high-fiving white guys, though. Yes, that’s Bill Nye.)
Aww, MAWG left to go do some kind of super-authentic lefty thing. Who will ‘splain to me now? I have to go to bed soon, and I was looking forward to being ‘splained gently to sleep.
@Middle Aged White Guy
Screw it first Canto of the year I’m not going to let fascism & my personal life get in the way of poetry.
“Let’s stand together”, a vague sentiment.
“We should put aside our differences.”
“Our real enemy is the one percent.”
Pray to tell more, please come to your senses.
We’re not here because we’d ignored the poor.
His base bathed in hate and false sciences.
These “minor differences” aren’t some plain ole’ chore.
They’re about subservience to the rich
And leaving social issues out the door.
Enough with this “WHITE MALE RAGE” sales pitch.
“Why can’t these FEEEEEMales cater to me?!”
Extrapolate on why this makes you twitch.
Oh lookee here what do I dare see?
You using Vietnam as your Boomer Bomb
And ageist blather with a side of brie.
I’m Vietnamese can’t you tell at all Tom.
I’m so grateful for the high body count
And nearly bathing my land in napalm.
If talking down for you was paramount,
That goal was achieved without a doubt.
I love how unity and standing together always seems to involve progressives who aren’t cishet white men going out of their way to protect the feelings of cishet white men but never the other way around. When marginalized people want their feelings respected or their priorities paid attention to, they’re divisive or mean or whatever.
There’s nothing inherently bad about being a cishet white man, but you’re going to have to accept that you are not the undisputed kings of the left anymore.
And if you don’t think there’s a problem with white rage and entitlement and male rage and entitlement not just in the US, but all over the western world, I can’t help you.
You know, when I was in the 18-25 year old age range, I often had old white conservative men splain to me that I was only progressive because I was young and naive and didn’t know any better. I was assured it was a phase and when I grew up, I’d become more conservative.
Now I’m in mid-thirties and just as progressive if not more so. I can’t tell you how thrilled I am to still be splained to about how I only have the beliefs I have because I don’t know any better. This time from a progressive white dude instead of the usual conservative ones. Yay!
Hey, Middle Aged?????????
Hate to break it to you. I am middle-aged and I WAS A DURANNIE! If you were protesting Johnson (???), middle age has passed.you.by.
and @Axe
I support this!
https://soundcloud.com/flobotsofficial/pray-extended
Flobots made a badass protest song. \m/
@MAWG
So you protested the Vietnam War. Great, I’m very happy for you. And now you wanna resist Trump. Wonderful, more resistance is always good. But, I have to ask, what have you been doing in the meantime? Because I lot of water has passed under the bridge since the U.S. pulled out of Vietnam, and a whole lot of it’s been pretty fucking toxic. You joined your fellow straight white men in protesting Vietnam (where you might’ve been sent, and might’ve been shot; your ass was on the line too, back then). But when cops were raiding gay bars and breaking heads, where were you? Were you at Stonewall? When people were dying by the thousands of AIDS while the president laughed, did you join ACT UP? When the police are shooting Black men right and left, have you been to BLM rallies? Are you standing with Standing Rock? When women seeking abortions are subject to abuse and harassment, are you volunteering as a clinic escort? When have you ever stood for any of us in the last half century that we should welcome you with open arms and listen to your ‘progressive’ credentials and give you the head seat at the table?
Well, I wrote this sign off prior to @Dalillama’s
Thanks, all. Sincerely.. especially folks like @Policy and @Axe for explaining where I hit a nerve, and not just making assumptions about my objective.
I wanted to discuss, not disrupt… but it seems that my presence is the latter, so I’ll wish you all peace, and go my way.
I’m not running, so I’ll read the thread for a bit more and come back on if someone wants to address me.
All the best, to all.
I wrote this sign off before reading Dalillama’s post, but seemed respectful I should leave it – so it follows this.
Wow, Dalillama………. thanks! I get it. I really get it……… or at least THINK I do.
Seems something like “when you’ve earned a place at the table, you can speak”.
I MEAN THAT RESPECTFULLY!
(There are many ways to serve, and while you might think I am avoiding the question, please understand that it feels abhorrent to me to give a “list” of service. But AT Stonewall, or join ACT UP? No. Personally nurse a couple of friends dying, yes. Etc. Sorry, it just seems disrespectful to do that, like we’re keeping score.)
So I get it. It’s all good. If my voice is not welcome, it is not welcome.
Gotta admit though, I really really don’t get how you and others think I asked to be at the “head of the table”. I just put out my thoughts.
*****************************************
Thanks, all. Sincerely.. especially folks like @Policy and @Axe for explaining where I hit a nerve, and not just making assumptions about my objective.
I wanted to discuss, not disrupt… but it seems that my presence is the latter, so I’ll wish you all peace, and go my way.
I’m not running, so I’ll read the thread for a bit more and come back on if someone wants to address me.
All the best, to all.
I’m sure your voice would have been more welcomed if your first post hadn’t been a whinge about how we’re all so mean to white men. What were you expecting?
Hi there. I’m a straight white guy over thirty myself. On behalf of the rest of the SWGOT community, I’d like to call you out on something.
Your first post here was to chide us for complaining about white male rage, and how our attitude here is preventing us from gaining access to your decades of progressive experience. When this went down like a lead balloon, your second post merely restated your initial point. Finally, when you understood your error, you chose to leave since you felt unwelcome.
Where was the sharing of decades of progressive experience?
Right now, there are hosts of young activists out there who have dedication and focus but are having to reinvent protest politics from a grassroots level. Lots of us have no idea how to organise a demo, how to run a sit-in, how to work journalists, or how to carry out effective civil disobedience. We are busy sharing knowledge as much as possible, and yours would be deeply appreciated. However, you’ve chosen not to share it; and the reason you’ve given for not sharing it is because you feel that people were mean to you. You appear to be happier to sulk in pride than to share in humility, even if it means harming the movement.
This is rage, exhibited by a white male. Could we perhaps call it “white male rage?”
Read it again. Where did I chide? Where did I claimed you complained? I simply stated MY opinion – yes, in a very direct way, but it was just my Freakin’ opinion, and I never claimed otherwise.
Where did I say you’re all so mean? Did I say that, or did you just assume that’s what I meant? It would have been a hell of a lot better if I’d said “Do you guys realize that when you finger point at a group, that group tends to shut out anything you want to say?” (Which is probably what you are saying I’ve done with you, fair enough).
????
So I own a lot of the criticism, respectfully back away when so many say “who the hell are you to tell us…”, and specifically say I’ll return if addressed….. and yet you say I’m sulking in pride.
???? How, when I say “peace” and “don’t want to disrupt”, do you hear “I’m gonna go home and pout”?
I’m NOT pointing fingers, I’m trying to comment cause I give a damn. Doesn’t anyone see how there seems to be so much ASSUMING of what I think?
@ej
The ONLY thing I can share, is what I so very poorly tried to share in my opening thread. And it’s just information, feedback, view from the other side, if you will. Consider it if you want, or don’t. Seriously, I’m just a guy talking. But I try to make it, cause I’m scared chitless by what I saw happen this last election.
It’s best summed up in that “When you call someone a racist, they tend to not listen to anything else you say.” They may BE racist, and they should be confronted at every step.
But if you want them to listen to you, consider your side, change their ways, vote your way….. they are way less likely to do it when you label them or attack THEM, instead of name and attack the behavior.
I can’t tell you how many people I know, who at this year’s election, who were slightly Trump, but went full bore Trump after the “Deplorables” comment. They were totally lost to any Democrat by the name calling. Same with people initially sympathetic to BLM who heard themselves labelled racist.
Basically the same on what’s happened to me on this thread. Tell me I’m wrong, tell me I’m out of line, etc……. fine, I’ll consider it, and I’ve owned where I have been.
But mock me with
and, yeah………. the human instinct is to say “screw them” and close ears.
@MAWG
Or, instead of closing ears, you could just own up to the fact that your tone was abrasive and your message came across as sanctimonious.
Look, we’ve all been through the wringer this past election cycle. I’ve been supremely disappointed by my own liberal side of the spectrum, because I want to fight for all things progressive and I hate that there are so many progressives who just want to ignore the parts that don’t personally affect them. I’m frustrated, you’re frustrated. All of us are frustrated.
I agree that we’ve got to try and bounce back from that, but shutting down dialogue concerning the rifts and their source isn’t the best way to go about that. You could just, you know…listen. Take some of it to heart. If it’s been difficult to be a white man in this past election cycle, try imagining what it’s been like to be a marginalized person. It’s certainly not any easier, I can tell you that much.
I want to see us fight for ALL people again, but we can’t fight for everyone if we let the people who want to start excluding the concerns of less dominant social groups run the conversation. That attitude itself needs to be challenged if we’re going to be inclusive.
I nearly commented on this but the ears have been declared closed.
Maybe the one who needs to read it again is you. You keep doubling down – you’re about 8x down right now – and you need to stop digging if you want us to take you seriously.
Tone policing? Are you for real? You’re going to tone police the actual victims of discrimination on a progressive site? Are you going to concern troll next?
Where the fuck have you owned anything?
Thank you for the reply.
I’d like to digress, if I may, and talk about the social dynamics of Points Refuted A Thousand Times (PRATT, for short.)
In my field of science, every so often we’ll see a bright-eyed young person come along with the brand-new revolutionary idea that maybe gravity just works differently on a large scale. They’ll explain how it meshes lots of pieces of theory together, how the maths could be surprisingly elegant, and how it rescues us from some of the implications of dark-matter physics. When this happens, we shake our heads in sadness, and refer that bright-eyed prophet to the papers in which this idea has already been extensively proposed, considered, debated, tested and eventually rejected. If we’re feeling spiteful, we also show them some of the papers in which other people like them have raised the same argument and been shot down.
When we do this, and they begin to understand that their point has been Refuted A Thousand Times, one of two things happens. Sometimes they read the papers, ashamed, and learn to consult the literature properly next time; and sometimes they demand that we engage with their version of the PRATT as if it were entirely new. This is as irritating as you can imagine, especially after three or four times. However, even people who respond in the second way can still grow into good scientists if their other ideas are good and if they’re willing to learn to engage with the literature to find out which questions still need answers.
Now let’s talk about this thread.
It so happens that the specific point you raised is a PRATT. It has been refuted so many times, in fact, that we have an in-joke about it. That in-joke is “#NotAllMen”, which has been mentioned earlier. A closely related PRATT is what we call “tone policing”, which you’ve also strayed into.
Had you read the literature – which in this case would mean going through threads here, on Shakesville and on other progressive sites – you would have known this. You would have seen extensive and patient discussion and analysis of it. Instead, you expected us to engage with it as if it were an entirely new idea.
So, fair enough. You brought up a PRATT and got shot down. It’s a learning experience; I’m not going to beat you up for it too much, but I hope you understand why some people got irritated at you for it. The important question is, are your other ideas good and are you willing to engage with the literature to find out which questions still need answers?
This is why I asked what I did, and why I’m saddened by your response. Do decades of progressive experience really only boil down to a single PRATT? I think you’re underselling yourself.
If you’re interested in being an ally, I’d suggest catching up on theory. Lurk and listen to those who are more up-to-date on progressive thought. Your experiences will give new and interesting insights on that, and once you understand where thought currently is, you can ask questions that haven’t been asked before.
So, Donald Trump spends an entire election cycle saying horrible things about women, people of color and immigrants. His fans do even worse. Hillary Clinton calls Trump supporters deplorable and it’s suddenly the end of the world. How could she be so uppity? Racist misogynistic assholes have feelings dontcha know!? The rest of us, if we hear bigotry about us or about people we care about? We should just keep.our mouths shut. Wouldn’t want to bruise the delicate feelings of white guys by being so unbelievable cruel as to call people who are racist racists. Didn’t Martin Luther King say in his “I have a dream” speech that it’s totally unfair to not coddle the feelings of white dudes?
Any
brogressiveprogressive cishet white dude whose first and only instinct is to whine that progressives who aren’t cishet white dudes are just so meeean isn’t actually interested in progressive causes. He’s interested in back pats.No, MAWG, you’re not getting a back pat. Take your pwecious fee-fees and shove them up your arse.
Seriously though. I think Mr. Best Most Experienced progressive somehow managed to get even splainier.
Not only is he pulling the “it’s worse to be called racist than be a victim of racism” bullshit we’ve all been tired of for years now, he’s assuming that nobody here has ever tried to patiently explain why it’s bad to hold bigoted views and why right wing economic policies don’t help people who aren’t rich. It makes the assumption that we’ve never made the attempt to understand their feelings. We have tried it. It doesn’t work. It did nothing utopia normalize those viewpoints.
Not to spam, but the notion that the Trump presidency is the result of Clinton calling Trump supporters a name which caused half the voters to be so shocked and offended they just had to vote in a fascist is stunningly naive.
Those of us who haven’t had our heads firmly wedged in our posteriors the last 20 years can see that this is actually a culmination of decades of backlash at white males slowly losing their stranglehold on privilege. Just as someone doesn’t suddenly become a serial killer without building up to it a bit first, the rise of Trump did not come out of nowhere. It didn’t happen because Hillary said deplorable or because people called the opposition to BLM racist. Come on.
ETA: How did autocorrect change but to utopia in my last post? The fuck?
The divisive evils of not baking cookies for the white guy.
“But, but… Now you’ve made me not want to help you.”
Progreshun.
And don’t think I didn’t notice that he responded to most people with single paragraphs or a brain-dead “???” but gave EJ – who identified himself as another cishet white dude – a proper full-page answer. As usual.
… And now, a message from my cat:
5666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666
Hey, it’s smarter than anything MAWG has to say.
#MAWGA
@SFHC
That’s always how it goes, isn’t it?
@SFHC
The whole post (including the ‘????’) was a response to @EJ. He just decided to @ him halfway thru for some reason
@WASP
Hopefully that blockquoted correctly…
Anyway, as EJ explained, this is not me mocking you. As a middle aged, white guy, of course you assumed it was mocking you* (put a pin in that). I was actually mocking your PRATTs. The entirety of your 1st comment is so old and played out, its structure so identical to many a similar screed, the response has a name. Lewis’ Law. I’m gonna let you do the reading on that
Now, here’s where you irrevocably fucked up:
See, others pointed out your tone policing in later comments, but it really gets going here. Now, @Scildfreja or somebody might know if this is a fancily named, cognitive bias or whatever. What I do know is that it tends to be most often and most egregiously employed by, well, people like you. This is white male rage. An assumption that you’re worthy of a certain type of consideration, and a lashing out at anyone who denies you your unexamined privilege
This is the 2nd time I’m explaining my silly, 1 sentence joke. It’s not that middle aged, white guys can’t respond to complaints about them, it’s that, every time someone complains about them, they end up doing the exact thing we were complaining about. You failed the test. I encourage you apply to retake it at your earliest convenience. But do study this time, eh?