Open Thread to discuss all things Trump, I mean holy crap

@Grace of Spades, welcome back, and feel free to lurk or comment however you like. Frequency of commenting is no bar for entry 🙂 The thread you’d be looking for on that is back around here:

https://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2017/01/07/resisttrump-today-by-reading-the-declassified-intelligence-report-on-russian-hacking/comment-page-2

I think that’s where it started!

@PoM, that’s gorgeous. I love dragonflies as a motif and it’s coming out beautifully. I can’t wait to see it when it’s done!

@Everyone, thank you so much for standing up for me. I mean it <3

@proudfootz, sigh. Somehow you haven’t entirely depleted my patience, so I’ll explain.

First, I apologize for saying these things in a place you could read. I was hoping to find somewhere safe to vent, and didn’t think you were reading all of the other threads. I’ll put that right out front. I’m allowed to be angry, and allowed to express that anger, but I was trying to do it in a way which wasn’t directed at you. Seems like you found it. I apologize.

That said – I see your duplicitous little trick.

It’s too bad you find verbally abusing me to be emotionally draining.

Here’s an idea – if this behavior of yours is causing you harm, try not doing it. It’s worth a shot.

Suggesting an equivalence between “needing to vent in place B about a stressful conversation in place A” and “verbal abuse” is abhorrent. You’ve been a jerk and my desire to vent is completely normal and not at all abusive; I went out of my way to do it in a place that wasn’t inline with that conversation. I made it very clear in the previous thread how stressful that conversation was. A couple of sharp words in another place is hardly “verbal abuse”. Nor was my comment about stress anything to do with being mean to you, quite the opposite. And you know it.

You’ve done this a few times now – this aggressive little trick of twisting someones’ words to paint them as the unreasonable one while also painting yourself as the victim. It’s the rhetorical equivalent of “so how long has it been since you stopped beating your wife?” Everyone can see it, no one’s fooled by it. That trick’s been used on me many, many times in my life now, by people who were actually abusive.

My emotional exhaustion is from having to walk on eggshells when speaking to you, to go over my words again and again to scrub them of any unintended aggression or irritation; my worry that I’m communicating poorly or that I’m somehow giving you an unfair chance.

I’ve been trying desperately to help you see where you’ve come into conflict with the rest of us, and tried to show you how you might be able to fix that. This requires I wear kid gloves, and not say plainly what is plainly obvious:

You have been arrogant. Towards others, and towards me. I’ve swallowed my pride and let you do this without reply. I’m guilty of this sin myself so I try to give others the benefit of the doubt in this, but the fact still stands.

You have been a mansplainer, walking in here with explanations no one asked for, with assumptions of superior knowledge, and with no actual argument beyond “you’re gullible.” You haven’t even attempted to engage in an exchange, have demonstrated no charity towards opposing positions, and in doing so have insulted the intelligence of anyone here. I swallowed all of those insults too and did my best to calmly explain the issue at hand.

You are an atheistbro. I’ll define that for you, since you seem to need a primer on the jargon. Much like a brogressive, it’s someone who claims to care about truth, but doesn’t express any self-criticism. It’s someone who assumes that they have defeated their biases, and therefore someone who assumes their own objectivity. This lets them consider their own warrantless beliefs to be the same as rock-hard facts, and anyone who disagrees is just being emotional. Ref: Elevatorgate, Atheistbro opinions on feminisms, etc.

They also tend to consider the plight of atheists in American society to be one of the greatest struggles of the modern age, making it equivalent to (or greater than) civil rights or feminism. The treatment of atheists in some parts of the US is certainly terrible, but it’s this victim complex, combined with a sense of intellectual superiority, that best defines the Atheistbro.

They also tend to bring it up whenever they’re accused of anything. Such as what you brought up, out of nowhere, multiple times. Which is why I feel comfortable using the term.

All of those terms apply to you, but I didn’t want to use them. You clearly have no clue what they mean, and jargon’s for use within in-groups. So I explained, patiently, prepared to engage your questions, braced to weather your aggression, and steeleed myself for the anxiety that your insults to my friends would bring.

I had hoped that my repeated pleas for you to stop being so defensive, to entertain the possibility that you might be wrong, would help you relax your position. Those two elements – surrendering defensiveness and self-doubt – are the very cornerstones of rationality, and you seem to care about that.

I see now, though, that you don’t care about being right, you care about winning.

When was the last time you were wrong about something you cared for deeply, Proudfootz? When was the last time you had to change your mind about something – the last time a major category of thought went from “True” to “False” in your head? The last time when that shift was accompanied by gut-wrenching guilt and pain and self-abasement? So that you could never again consider yourself actually right on anything, that you forever doubt yourself and your own conclusions?

That’s what rationality feels like, Proudfootz. It’s an eagerness to be wrong, alloyed with a perpetual self-doubt. It’s about having your ego crushed, repeatedly, and being okay with that.

I push away my urge to be angry with people who are arrogant, who are pedagogical, who are perpetual victims, because that’s me. I look at your anger and your sense of outrage and I feel sympathy and guilt, because it’s looking in a mirror. I’ve been holding back and biting my tongue with you since you got here because I want other people to give me that chance when I’m being a jerk. To explain in kindness when I have no kindness to give.

Which is now. I have no more kindness to give you; this is the last. Rationality is about self-destruction, Proudfootz. If you want to be the sober-minded truth-seeker that most atheists want to be, you need to get out your own knives – and use them on yourself. All those tools of science and rationality aren’t weapons to destroy falsehood in the world – they’re tools to destroy falsehood in your own beliefs.

If you want to continue this conversation, I will no longer restrain myself. I will expect a high standard of self-criticism and rationality from you, and will not hold back based on your inexperience with jargon or unfamiliarity with context. You can deal with that, or you can go back to the Slymepit.

http://img12.deviantart.net/93c3/i/2012/358/9/5/fluttershy___you_think_this_is_a_game__by_mrbeattyjr-d5p10wh.png

EJ (The Orphic Lizard)

January 15, 2017 at 4:07 pm

Hi proudfootz.

I’m familiar with your writing; you’ve been around before. As such, I’m a little disappointed in the way you’ve behaved here, because I know you’re capable of better. Please consider what your end goal is, and how you intend to get there.

Yes, I’ve been around. And we are *all* capable of better.

Saying things like that to Axe or M, regardless of how funny they are or how true you feel they are, is not going to result in an end-state in which everyone agree with you and is your friend.

My goal is not to try and figure out what sort of things to write which will make people want to be my friend. My goal was to contribute to forming some sort of understanding about a strategy that might avert further electoral disasters in the future.

If your end goal is to “win” the argument in some sense, please consider how meaningless the concept of “winning” an internet argument is, and how seldom it genuinely happens. Having the last word, or being unpleasant enough to someone else to drive them off doesn’t exactly advance the sum total of human happiness.

I will let other posters have the last word.

That they have succeeded in driving someone off will apparently make them very happy.

I will continue to support David in his work, as I feel what he is doing is important and contributes to society as a whole.

If your end goal is to be regain esteem in the eyes of the community, then a good step would be to stop posting for a moment, wait until the moment has passed, then reexamine what you’ve written and consider whether you really want to be That Guy.

While there is a great deal more to be said – more questions and more accusations – there’s no point in answering them.

On a personal note, if your end goal does not involve having me be very disappointed in you, you will apologise to Scildfreja for that. She’s a wonderful person, and if we end up being assholes to her because of her kindness, then that sends a signal to her to not be kind, which makes the world a worse place. Making the world a worse place is something I object to.

Yes, I don’t want the world to be a worse place than it already is.

I will happily trade apologies with whoever is willing.

Scildfreja

I appreciate your efforts, but at this time will not respond as this seems like a very good juncture for everyone to pause and reflect.

Be assured I only wish the best for you and your loved ones. I don’t want you to step on anything painful, contract a rash, or make you want to ‘flounce’ off the site, or have David ban you.

Thank you for the apologies for ‘venting’ in a place where I could ‘overhear’ to your unfiltered words.

I feel sorry for proudfootz’ loved ones, if they can never get an apology without having to offer up one of their own, regardless of how contrived.

@kupo

I’ll note that proudfootz did not apologize to Scildfreja, so apparently that “mutual apologies” thing only applies inconsistently. Say, when someone wants proudfootz to apologize for something, not when proudfootz expects an apology.

@kupo

David told proudfootz to stop commenting here:

https://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2017/01/07/resisttrump-today-by-reading-the-declassified-intelligence-report-on-russian-hacking/comment-page-6/#comment-1153114

It’s not 100% clear that he meant for proudfootz to stop commenting, period, which I’m sure proudfootz is going to use to argue that the ban was only meant for that thread. I don’t think that rules-lawyering is going to keep him out of moderation once David catches up, though.

@Scildfreja

Suggesting an equivalence between “needing to vent in place B about a stressful conversation in place A” and “verbal abuse” is abhorrent. You’ve been a jerk and my desire to vent is completely normal and not at all abusive; I went out of my way to do it in a place that wasn’t inline with that conversation.

Bravo. Backing you up 100%.

Wow.

Just…wow.

@PoM
Yeah, I noticed that, too. I didn’t say anything because I wasn’t sure how to articulate the problem with it. Thank you.

I took the “we can all be better” thing as his way of saying “you first.” He’ll only admit he’s wrong and should apologize when everyone here becomes perfect according to his standards.

@proudfootz
Then offer the damn apology to Scild instead of trying to shimmy up some bargaining for your own gains. I have nothing to say sorry for.

By this point, Athlete’s Foot is coming off as an abusive rapist moreso than the trolls who admit they’re abusive rapists.

And it really pisses me off that his username’s taken from LoTR. You know, that allegorical treatise in favour of equality, moral courage and love and against corruption, war and hatred.