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Vox interviewed me for a piece on misogyny as a gateway to the alt-right; check it out

M’lady …

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So Vox — not Vox Day, just Vox — has an interesting and very thorough piece looking at the ways in which misogyny has served as a gateway drug for the alt-right brand of white supremacy. The author, Aja Romano, sent me some questions and quoted me fairly extensively in the piece, mostly about the role Gamergate played in the rise of the alt-right.

Check it out here.

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Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
3 years ago

So Vox — not Vox Day, just Vox

Believe it or not, but I actually had to read the headline in the RSS feed twice.

Regarding the article, I have a bunch of problems (admittedly, not very big ones) with it, and the author’s choice of words. For example, this :

extreme misogyny evolving from male bonding gone haywire

The manuresphere is “male bonding gone haywire” ? That reminds me of “locker room talk”.

This is what I call male bonding gone haywire :

http://www.trendyfest.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/drunk-men-joke.jpg

Or this :

a fringe movement encompassing multiple ideologies (including white nationalism and white supremacy)

What, these aren’t the same thing anymore now ?

These are just two examples, there’s a bunch more in there that I attribute to the author being a bit clumsy with their words.

It’s not a big problem in itself, but I think we should really be careful with our own words and their meanings, otherwise we may end up unconsciously normalizing fascist rhetoric.

Otherwise, the whole thing is great, I’m just being a meaniepants.

Ellesar
Ellesar
3 years ago

Really interesting article, so true in so many ways. I do take issue with the tweet that claimed that ‘feminist single mothers’ are responsible for so many young men becoming misogynists and through that finding the extreme right.

This seems like a similar argument that the manureosphere puts forth – that feminists have only got ourselves to blame when men become increasingly hostile. I don’t think it is statistically plausible, unless the definition of feminist is any woman who raises children on her own, as a result of divorce, choice, or any other reason.

NO! That would be an absurd definition.

I expect if these guys were to be asked mostly they would be from ordinary backgrounds, not esp political, but probably mostly slightly conservative, and yes, divorce highly likely, certainly NOT progressives of any type.

I am not claiming any specific knowledge, I am simply going by the way these men express themselves, and their attitudes to women and sex.

Ellesar
Ellesar
3 years ago

One more thing – the article did not mention homophobia and transphobia, many of these guys are rabid with. Milo – self proclaimed gay man – stating that transpeople are mentally ill for example.

Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
3 years ago

[I deleted and reposted this to get some more time to track down and fend off the blockquote monster that turned up in it. Here it is again, hoping the beast is indeed vanquished.]

‘kay, this is what I get for posting before realizing I’d somehow managed to unintentionally skip most of the article. It’s worse than I thought. Here are a few ludicrous picks, but honestly the article itself at some points seems pretty off.

pickup artist culture (a community of men also labeled “PUAs” that essentially makes a game of the art of bedding women)

the art of bedding women

This one I’m just gonna leave out here without comment.

“I was grateful for the community to be raising points that affected my father and my life,” [Redditor RZRtv] told Vox, noting that Reddit’s various men’s rights forums were full of “great points” about how society expects men to be emotionally reserved. They also provided a basic form of support in acknowledging that men are allowed to be emotional, flawed humans, which he found to be “a big selling point.”

Actually, the whole part about RZRtv. The guy makes a few valid points, alright, but come on ! I mean look at this, and bear in mind that the first part is from the author, not the Reddit dude :

feminists and men’s rights activists (commonly referred to as MRAs) rarely listen to each other. “Neither side seems to accurately assess its tribalism,” he said.

You don’t get to write that feminists don’t pay attention to what MRAs say on the same page with an interview with David. Well, I mean, you can if you really want to, but don’t expect me to take it seriously then. But sure, call back when MRAs start actually doing anything meaningful for men’s issues.

SJWs. This disparaging label is an updated way to accuse progressives of extreme political correctness.

Please explain to me what “extreme political correctness” means.

In essence, many men who were drawn to these communities because they wanted to get laid and gain self-confidence have found themselves embroiled in a culture war, one that started as a way to boost individual male autonomy and evolved into a way to wrest back control of the country — nay, the world — from shrill feminists and their weakling cuck supporters, which include “libtard” shills in the mainstream media.

No. Just no. It started as racism and misogyny, and guess what ? It’s still racism and misogyny. Also you’re making it sound like you’re saying SJWs are against male autonomy. I know it’s not what you said. But be careful with the wording, goldurnit.

This is gonna have to do for now, I got a few things to take care of. I’ll get back to it later though. While the article in itself is pretty well-documented and makes a lot of accurate points, there’s some shit in there that’s just dumb.

dreemr
dreemr
3 years ago

Ugh. I am the single mother of a son, and I am so sick of being blamed for everything that goes wrong with young men.

His dad chose to walk out of his life, assholes.

Of course the men themselves aren’t responsible, it has to be a woman! Evil ol’ Mommy Dearest!

Fuck you guys, just fuck you.

Many of these radical white men were raised by single feminist mothers. Internet groups radicalized their sexual frustration into bigotry.— Siyanda Mohutsiwa (@SiyandaWrites) November 9, 2016

I’d also like to add: CITATION. FUCKING. NEEDED.

Snowberry
Snowberry
3 years ago

The article sounded like it was trying to be neutral as possible, even about things that both the left and much of the normal-right would find despicable.

Snowberry
Snowberry
3 years ago

Of course the men themselves aren’t responsible, it has to be a woman! Evil ol’ Mommy Dearest!

Well, if single mothers had only picked a man who wouldn’t have walked out on them, then their man wouldn’t have walked out on them! Is lojick, duh!

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
3 years ago

Many of these radical white men were raised by single feminist mothers. Internet groups radicalized their sexual frustration into bigotry.

… Oedipus has a Twitter account?

(And that is why paragraph breaks exist.)

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

shrill feminists and their weakling cuck supporters

Yeah, I’m not going to bother reading that crap.

dreemr
dreemr
3 years ago

@Snowberry

I’m sure it’s my Shrill Feminazism (TM) that drove the poor man away.

Oh, and I got fat. Wait, I was already fat when he met me – nah, doesn’t matter. A fattie is a fattie, amirite?

Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
3 years ago

So where was I.

So I’m kinda baffled that the author took David’s input on Gamergate only, in the middle of a more general thing about the manosphere. You get an opportunity to ask someone who’s been keeping watch on them for years, really the closest person you could get to a “leading authority” on the subject matter, but you limit that opportunity to just one of its facets ? Oh well.

I mean that’s not that bad in itself, but the problem is that the article is riddled with errors that could’ve been avoided. Hell, the mere fact that I spotted them so easily should demonstrate that.

And there’s the things that are simply missing. The words “fascism/fascist” appear twice in the article.

Members of the alt-right tend to be young white men spouting blatantly racist, nationalist, and misogynistic views that align eerily well with historical fascism

That’s true. It’s also a hell of a way to worm your way around the word without stating that the alt-right is openly fascist, period. They don’t “align well” with historical fascism. They fucking embrace it, fetishize it.

[Trump’s] ideas are informed by and emboldening to a growing collective of men who view the subordination of women as both part of a functional society and a stepping stone to a larger movement: one steeped in fascist ideology and willing to openly champion hate as a political cause.

Okay, that’s slightly better, I guess. Except, actually, no. You’re still saying something in the lines of “it aligns well”. Fucking say it, dammit. They are fascists.

Y’know what other word was scarcely mentioned ? Nazi. Four instances. Two of them are from David, who actually uses it to call out the fuckers. Here are the other two :

In fact, the term “cultural Marxism” is descended from actual Nazi propaganda — a distrust of modernism and the spread of non-Germanic culture that Hitler called “cultural Bolshevism.” In his book A History of Nazi Germany: 1919-1945, historian Joseph W. Bendersky notes that the phrase was code for the cultural purging that preceded the Holocaust.

C’mon, you can just call ’em nazis, no need to tip-toe around that.

Everything else I can see has been pointed out already.

@dreemr

As the son of a single mom, I need to tell you that you’re awesome. And I’m also fucking sick of each and every one of my many failings being attributed to my mother. Please stay strong and awesome, and give a fist bump to your son for me (he’ll know what it means, it’s a secret code between us children-of-single-mothers).

@Snowberry

Yeah that’s how it comes across to me as well. Apparently “neutrality” is more important to journalistic integrity than, y’know, facts.

dreemr
dreemr
3 years ago

HOWEVER, disappointments in the article aside, congratulations David on your increased exposure, and I hope it brings more traffic to the site.

After the article you mentioned yesterday, I wondered: Did you ever dream as a kid that one day you would be an Internet-Famous Expert on Poopyheads?

dreemr
dreemr
3 years ago

@Sinkable John – I shall fistbump my offspring, and thank you for making me smile.

Euroguy
Euroguy
3 years ago

Thousends and thousands of young fit ebony muslim men crossing the Strait of Gibraltar every week. No women, no children. They don´t look starved at all but they look sexually starved.
Some remain in Spain and Portugal, most of them cross the Pirineos to rest of the continent.

European women reject local men, they go for the ebony. It is fact.

Of course, European women have the right to shag with whoever they want.

The problem is the single mom epidemic. It seems this African men are not very “hubby material”.

I just hope Euro women to take the pill and always have XXXL size condoms in their purse. Otherwise this is going to be a disaster.

Married Euro women shagging with Sub-Saharians they have to be careful about STDs too, in order not infect hard working Euro hubbies. 🙁

The Last Unicorn
The Last Unicorn
3 years ago

I haven’t read this article yet, but based on the discussion about it here it might be a waste of time. Still, I’d like to congratulate you, David, on getting another interview. I’m glad you’re getting recognition that isn’t all negative.

Dreemr, I’ve always found it odd that there’s so much of a “evil mother/stepmother/female guardian” trope. Obviously, there’s misogyny there. But there are so many stories that include some sort of manipulative, soul-sucking woman who clings to her child(ren). Obviously abusive mothers exist, but nearly everyone I know has has or had an abusive father or stepfather, or at least had some sort of conflict with him. Often times it’s disguised in media as the typical “protective” father. You know, the one that won’t let his daughter make her own decisions or live her own life, but it’s okay because he’s just protecting her.

ramen
ramen
3 years ago

…feminists and [MRAs] rarely listen to each other. “Neither side seems to accurately assess its tribalism,” he said.

Yeah, fuck you.

dreemr
dreemr
3 years ago

Bottom line, for me, about this article is: I wish David had written it. Nobody is as intimately familiar with the evolution of the manosphere into the so-called alt-right (-osphere) as David is, not even us loyal readers, because I know at least half of us never wade into the muck like David does, day in and day out.

Gamergate was really the beginning of the end of the “manosphere” sticking to complaints about women and feminists. It exploded so far beyond that now, and places like AVFM just couldn’t contain it nor cater to the far more rabid hunger for more targets.

Roosh and RoK has tried but I think he’s barely hanging on by his fingernails. Heartiste never really hid his racism but now he’s letting it all hang out.

It seems like the men of the ‘manosphere’ and gamergate have begun to believe their own purply hype: that they truly ARE temporarily displaced Philospher Kings/Warlords. It somehow got to be not enough to just hate feminists, not enough to just figure out how to date rape/trick women into sex, not enough to mock so-called ‘manginas’ and ‘beta cucks’. Now their hunger to destroy other humans has become voracious, insatiable; there’s seemingly no hatred they shy from embracing. Anti-Semitism, virulent racism, sexism, ableism, there seems to be no hatred too low for them to celebrate.

Shoot, David could write a BOOK about this. I mean, if he had the time and the funds, of course. And a research team to help him collate his years of information. And probably a new computer.

Handsome (Punkle Stan) Jack

I haven’t read this article yet, but based on the discussion about it here it might be a waste of time. Still, I’d like to congratulate you, David, on getting another interview. I’m glad you’re getting recognition that isn’t all negative.

Yes, not only is he getting more recognition but the website is getting more recognition, too. It’ll bring more manospherians and trolls, but it will also bring people who will be educated by what’s here.

Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
3 years ago

@The Last Unicorn

By all means, read it. It’s still worthwhile and informative, even if it’s not perfect. Don’t let our ranting put you off.

You’re right about abusive fathers, by the way. I’m the biological offspring of a particularly smelly shitstain that served as a great example for me (also a great introductory course in Misogyny 101), and I’m THANKFUL that my mother and I were able to get away, but even since then I haven’t met a lot of decent fathers, or a lot of people with a decent father. Sure I’ve met some absolutely amazing ones, but they were the exception, not the rule. Then the reverse goes for mothers. Again, I had a great example from the moment I was born – and I’m glad for that.

I think you hit the nail on the head with the “protective” father thing, too. I think it’s kind of the root of the problem. Fathers are expected to be that particular brand of asshole, and it’s glorified all over the place too. On the other hand, mothers are expected to care, clean and cook, and that’s about it. God forbid they teach you anything. My mother was called abusive for… buying me books (because I wanted ’em, not because she wanted me to read) and letting me read all the time. Apparently that was super harmful to my development as a 5 yr old. I guess the harm became apparent when I started writing at age 7 – 8, and still haven’t stopped at age 24 ?

Can’t you see how she broke my mind beyond repair ?

@Jack

It’ll bring more manospherians and trolls

Ehh, chew-toys. At any rate, they’ll be confined to moderation limbo until David lets ’em through. We probably wouldn’t even notice a difference. If I could just lie awake at night wondering about things, I’d probably wonder about the kind of oozing slime that we never hear about but that David has to read through on a regular basis to decide whether to let out of moderation… Scary.

Handsome (Punkle Stan) Jack

If I could just lie awake at night wondering about things, I’d probably wonder about the kind of oozing slime that we never hear about but that David has to read through on a regular basis to decide whether to let out of moderation… Scary.

Part of me is curious what the worst of the worst is but considering sometimes I can’t read the stuff he pulls out to mock from the moderation filters as it is, I know it’s nothing I wanna read.

But I’m also curious.

But I probably can’t read it.

It’s conflicting.

Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
3 years ago

@Jack

When you stare into the moderation filter… a lot of stupid stares back at you.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
3 years ago

If I could just lie awake at night wondering about things, I’d probably wonder about the kind of oozing slime that we never hear about but that David has to read through on a regular basis to decide whether to let out of moderation… Scary.

Going by my experience as a mod, I’m going to guess “An endless stream of Goatse, porn and dead kids.”

(And that’s on Pokemon fan forums… The Internet is a wonderful place.)

dlouwe
dlouwe
3 years ago

For that “single feminist moms” tweet – when you look at the whole series (many were left out of the article), a bigger focus was put on how dudes were told to keep their support of Trump hidden from their more progressive family members, contributing to the big “what.” on election day. So when I first saw the series I read that tweet more as “these young men were radicalized despite having feminist mothers, who they were encouraged to hide their Trump support from.” I may be wrong though! Single moms get shit on a lot, and I can definitely see how it could be read as disparaging.

Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
3 years ago

@SFHC

I don’t wanna know imagine what the dedicated-antifeminist-douchecanoe version of that would be. I’ma stop asking questions now. *shivers*

I used to be a mod on an MMORPG fansite & forum, something like 9 or 10 years ago. And then later, briefly, on the official forum. But somehow I never had to deal with that kind of stuff. I’m really feeling lucky right now. Teenage me probably couldn’t have dealt with that shit.

@dlouwe

That’s how I interpreted it at first, but the feminist single mom is part of every MRA’s imaginary backstory so I’m not sure who’s gonna actually believe it, and the tweet is weirdly worded like it actually implies that their mothers are somehow responsible for how shitty they became. Or, alternatively, that the lack of a father is what made them shitty.

All in all, much clumsy in all that.

Tovius
Tovius
3 years ago

My mother was called abusive for… buying me books (because I wanted ’em, not because she wanted me to read) and letting me read all the time.

https://youtu.be/ZBAijg5Betw

Seriously?

Tovius
Tovius
3 years ago

For future reference, how do I embed youtube videos here?

Handsome (Punkle Stan) Jack

@Tovius

You need to use the full link. The youtube.com links rather than the shortern youtu.be mobile links.

Tovius
Tovius
3 years ago

Hmm, it works if it’s by itself, but not if there’s text beneath it or above it. I’m not sure what’s going on.

Handsome (Punkle Stan) Jack

@Tovius

Yeah, you need the full link PLUS only the last video will embed as long as it’s at the end of the post. Sometimes.

It’s a mess.

The Last Unicorn
The Last Unicorn
3 years ago

Jack, yeah, hopefully we educate more than attract trolls and the like.

Sinkable John, my dad’s quite the shitstain, too. I’m glad you and your mom were able to escape. And yes, I’ll be sure to give it a read, then!

(Sorry for my low-energy response, I only just got done going through my to-do list for today and I’m tired.)

Headologist
Headologist
3 years ago

So people have covered a lot of the issues with the article, but I’d like to add my two cents.

I don’t think it’s a bad article. I think that when mainstream media outlets or places that haven’t paid much attention to this breed of arsehole start researching, they’re bound to get things wrong and have a lot of what to us looks like sloppy wording, because we’re used to David’s well-honed and brilliantly incisive commentary. Not that any of the things people have said are wrong, but I’m willing to cut them some slack for now.

HOWEVER

1. The single mothers thing. I had so much of a problem with that it prevented me sharing the original tweetstorm on social media, despite it being otherwise great. So why was that one of the tweets chosen for the article? I have mummy issues myself, but fuck everyone who blames single mothers for anything except their brilliant ability to raise children in a fucked up world.

2. My main issue with the article itself is more broad; I don’t like the way the progression angle is framed. Overall, it sounds like these poor men, lonely, sexless because of their single mothers (…nope, can’t let that go) went looking for some validation, any validation away from the mean feminists. They got sucked in by promises of emotional support (…in the manosphere?) and exploited and WOOPS now they’re Nazis. Or swept up on a tide of racism and misogyny and too far gone. Everyone cry for the poor exploited men.

It ignores the fact that the people in these communities have pushed them in this direction by choosing to be ever more foul. They saw the misogyny, racism, homophobia, facism, rape threats, death threats, doxxing, harassment, and instead of bolting in the other direction they joined in and pushed that boundary further. The alt-right, the manosphere, the 8channers aren’t exactly known for hiding their awfulness -in fact, they shine a spotlight on it, proud of their most hateful and despicable words and actions. If anyone has removed the teeth, it’s the media who refused to tie Elliot Rodgers to his misogyny, or call Trump supporters racist. The alt-right aren’t innocent manipulated victims, and I take umbridge at the suggestion that we should pity the men harassing women out of their homes, trans people out of their places of study, and (if they have their way) anyone not the whitest of white Christians out of their country.

Mewens
Mewens
3 years ago

Uh, is Euroguy a regular troll? Or he new?

Cuz holy hell.

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
3 years ago

Yeah, he’s pretty amazing. Wrong about everything, and pretty clearly just saying the way he wishes the world was, instead of how it actually is. I’m being avoidant for the most part.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

He’s new. Although it would not surprise me if he was a sock either.

Really not loving how he’s sharing his sexual fantasies with us.

Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
3 years ago

I for one found the fascist-feminist part pretty entertaining. He’s getting boring now that he’s dropped half the act though.

Meh, it’s either this troll or Maggy’s Towel, and I already threw up like two hours ago, so I’ll keep my eyes on this one.

ETA :

JACK ! Getta load of that !

While we were musing about what never goes through, it turns out that there actually, literally WAS a lot of stupid staring back at us from the moderation filter !

Handsome (Punkle Stan) Jack

David, I wasn’t being serious about the moderation filter.

I just hope Euro women to take the pill and always have XXXL size condoms in their purse. Otherwise this is going to be a disaster.

I hope so too because that sounds like they’re prepared for a good time. Everyone should at least use two forms of birth control, IMO, and everyone carrying around condoms is both convenient and smart. People without penises shouldn’t be afraid to carry their own condoms if they enjoy and/or expect PiV sex, although we should all mind that condoms have expiration dates and that carrying condoms in your wallet for long expanses of time can ruin the integrity of the latex, which can cause it to break easier. I’m not sure about sheepskin or other latex alternatives in wallets, though. Sheepskin, while it prevents pregnancies, doesn’t protect against STDs anyway.

And, of course, you needn’t have condoms that are just for penises. There are condoms for vaginas, most commonly known as “female” condoms, although vaginal condoms can be, like, twice the price at least of some condoms. Like, fucking $30 a box. But I don’t see why maybe as an alternative to penial condoms people carry around vaginal ones. (Although they’re bigger and stuff so not as easy to tuck away.)

But, of course, you don’t need to do PiV or any penetrative sex at all. Dental dams and regular ol’ latex gloves can be used for oral and fingering and such. Hell, you can just use saran wrap for dental dams if you need it. These are much cheaper than even penial condoms.

So that was some brief sex ed. Hoped you enjoyed it and it was informative. Remember, sex is more fun with affirmative consent and safety!
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Pie
Pie
3 years ago

@”Euro”guy

Thousends and thousands of young fit ebony muslim men…

Lets be honest, you aren’t actually a euro guy at all, are you?

Christina Nordlander
Christina Nordlander
3 years ago

I was gonna say “Euroguy is just straight-up posting his sexual fantasies here now,” but weirwoodtreehugger beat me to it.

And if David were to write a book about the manosphere, I’d support that project in every way I could.

Euroguy
Euroguy
3 years ago

I am very happy all of you are making mockery about me.

But I am not a troll. I am just giving another point of view.

@Pie
Well, I think I am a male (not transgender, not yet), and my passport says “European Union”.

Euroguy
Euroguy
3 years ago

I am happy cuz you have a laugh, and having a laugh is always good. I celebrate it! Even if the laugh is about me. :)))

JS
JS
3 years ago

Sheesh, now we’re getting bog-standard “off-topic post troll”. EuroGuy: 0 of 10, don’t bother trying again.

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
3 years ago

I can see EuroGuy being a sock, to be honest. It’s actually the same pattern as Mick Dash’s appearance before. Mick showed up with his story about bein’ an innocent no-really-i’m-a-feminist-in-college act; EuroGuy shows up with story about bein’ an innocent no-really-i’m-a-feminist-fascist-actually-cuckold act. And in both cases, a day or two afterwards, Miggy shows up to argue in another thread.

That’s not actual evidence but it’s a correlation. Take it as you will.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
3 years ago

Wasn’t there another self-described fascist troll with a similar name right back when this site first started? Euros-something…

EDIT: Eurosabra, that was it.

Snowberry
Snowberry
3 years ago

I hardly ever read the site back in the early days, and I certainly didn’t post at all back then. But from what I did see and remember, Euroguy and Eurosabra sound nothing alike.

dreemr
dreemr
3 years ago

Just a note to everyone who pointed out that the “single mothers” tweet may be more nuanced than it first appears: I really do appreciate you pointing out a different way of looking at it.

I may go back and try to read the whole thing again in this context, but for now my visceral reflex disgust with it is still too fresh. I might attempt at a later date.

But I did want to say thanks.