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evil single moms men who should not ever be with women ever MGTOW misogyny red pill

Today’s almost completely unreadable MGTOW meme takes aim at single moms

Graphic designers weep.
Graphic designers weep.

This lovely meme, found in the Men Going Their Own Way subreddit, pretty unreadable even at full resolution. But it’s not too hard to see what point the meme-maker was trying to get across.

Naturally, Reddit’s MGTOWs have many thoughts on this subject.

Like these:

CyanideCookiez 3 points 15 hours ago Single moms are a scourge. These bitches failed hardcore when it came down to deciding who the father of their children was going to be. Oh Well, the next generation of criminals has to come from somewhere I suppose. and men who date single moms are the lowest caliber of men on the planet aside from white knights and cucks, although generally they are one and the same.

And these:

frikabg 25 points 23 hours ago This is what happens when you try and upbring your child with feelings instead of logic! Also it doesn't help if u are a soul sucking bitch who thinks that the world owns her something just because she decided to have a child or the fact that majority of single moms are single mainly because they decided to go for chuck who bailed the moment he got the phone call she is pregnant. But hey! Atleast she fucked around with 10s all the time i mean that has to count for something right?!???

Wait, am I reading this correctly? Has the legendary Chad Thundercock been replaced by his brother Chuck?

I feel kinda bad for the models who posed for the stock photos MGTOWs love to appropriate for their memes. No one wants to discover one day that they’ve become the focus of a MGTOW two-minute hate.

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Ellesar
Ellesar
4 years ago

Having raised 2 kids (boys!) with NO father at any point (donors due to being a lesbian), AND completely on my own I have always taken a keen interest in the sociology of lone parenthood, and the attitude of mainstream society.

Poorer outcomes for lone parents have a lot of factors. Growing up in poverty is a big one.

Another big factor is the continued relationship with the father of the child/ren. This is very often a source of conflict, esp if the relationship ended due to abuse. Other areas of conflict often emerge when either partner has more children with someone else.

Attitudes towards lone parent women clearly have a part to play. The above bile being on the extreme end of the neg scale, but there is an awful lot of stuff in between – a lot of it based on the assumption that women are weak and incompetent. Not an issue a lone parent father has to contend with.

I have known only 2 lone parents who were men. Both had partners who had mental health issues. One of these women suffered chronic and severe abuse from her husband, but he got custody of the children when she ‘lost it’. This violent man got LOADS of support from social services, and socially did not suffer because he was a saint for looking after his own children. No one rejected him because he had abused his ex wife – no one seemed to care. The other man had daily practical help from his parents, primarily his mother.

Though I say it myself my kids have come out lovely. I know by MRA standards they are beta cucks of the highest order, but this can only be a good thing – if MRAs hate you you know you have done something right.

I didn’t find it easy, and we have lived in relative poverty. But I know that having no ex partner has been a positive (from anecdotal evidence of women I have talked to), and because I am assertive and educated I have not suffered too much of the other stuff I have mentioned.

People always assumed that I had been left by the father/s of my children. I didn’t put them right – I did not care, and I did not want my children to be negatively marked out as having a lesbian mother (I live in a fairly progressive part of London, but there is still plenty of homophobia) – no point in giving bigots ammo!

Lea
Lea
4 years ago

I love the part where if a man abandoned a woman and his child, it is her failing.

If his child grows up and commits a crime, it is also her failing.

Men are never responsible for their actions, according to MGTOW.

Meanwhile, those grapes are so sour. Just because this guy couldn’t get a single mom to give him the time of day, he hates single moms and the men they do choose to date.

These douchebags want pregnancy to be a way to force women to stay in abusive relationships with men like them. That we can survive without them really pisses them off.

Arctic Ape
Arctic Ape
4 years ago

I get a sense that people (esp. in US) who complain about single moms tend to be extremely (and sometimes deliberately) sloppy on what they mean by single mom.

It’s like all mothers are stereotyped as either conventional married-all-the-way mothers or welfare queens who haven’t met the father since conception. Maybe about half of mothers actually are the former and everyone else is held suspect of being the latter.

It seems weird, considering how many families don’t fit these stereotypes.

Kat
Kat
4 years ago

I forgot to mention that Wesley Clark Jr. is at Standing Rock. He’s the son of the former supreme commander of NATO’s military forces, General Wesley Clark Sr.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ Kat

Unfortunately the company behind the pipeline seem to think they can carry on regardless.

http://ir.energytransfer.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=106094&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=2227348

guest
guest
4 years ago

Thank you to whoever posted the Gofundme link for supporting the vets at Standing Rock–I can feel like my donation really did do something useful.

Tabby Lavalamp
Tabby Lavalamp
4 years ago

For people who talk about prizing logic over feelings, they sure do keep wearing their feelings on their sleeves while utterly failing at logic.

Neremanth, 329 year old Contributor to Society
Neremanth, 329 year old Contributor to Society
4 years ago

It’s not only graphic designers that the meme will have weeping, but statisticians too. I mean, these things are generally backed up by research that on closer inspection doesn’t turn out to have actually proved what they think it does, but on this occasion the stats fail is right there to see in the meme itself.

SeaB already said it, but telling us what percentage of people with problem X were brought up by single mothers doesn’t tell us anything about the relationship between being brought up by a single mother and problem X! We need to know the percentage of people who were brought up by single mothers who developed problem X and the percentage of people who were brought up in other kinds of families who developed problem X. (And then we need to control for a whole lot of stuff before anything causal can be concluded, but that’s back to the more usual issues MRA citations tend to have*.)

That’s the biggest and most pervasive error, but there’s also this gem:

Abusive violence against children appears to be a function of poverty in mother-only homes but unrelated to income in homes with single fathers

Assuming for the sake of argument that the cited reference does indeed show that, and that all other possible explanations have been correctly controlled for, the problem here is that they are stating that as though obviously this is further evidence that single mothers are evil. But actually there are multiple possible scenarios that are equally consistent with that description; let’s pick out two of them:

(i) Abusive violence against children is frequent in homes with single mothers no matter what their income level, while it’s infrequent in homes with well-off single fathers and frequent in homes with poorer single fathers – this is presumably how the meme-maker read it, if they actually stopped to think about what it was saying at all rather than just going “aha! eeeeeevil feeemales!”

(ii) The same thing except abusive violence is infrequent in single-mother homes – which runs contrary to their message about single fathers being so much better than those awful unsupervised females

So yeah, without more information that really doesn’t tell us anything about whether single mothers are better or worse than single fathers.

*Note that the issue is that their citations don’t prove what the MRAs say they do, not that they don’t show what the citations themselves claim they show: I’m blaming the way MRAs use the sources rather than necessarily the sources themselves.

@Ohlmann

I don’t think Scildfreja was disputing the biased nature of a collection of anecdotes: hence why she said “[b]iased, unfiltered, raw data, but still!” Nor do I think she was necessarily recommending that you use them to conclude anything about the topic they relate to (as opposed to the way people think about or talk about the topic). I think she was simply saying that data are multiple pieces of information, which the collection of anecdotes is: it’s a selection from all the possible pieces of information which only includes those which are noteworthy in one direction or the other, but that’s still information.

(It’s a good point, and that saying is going to annoy me from now on too!)

@ Kat

That story about the veterans apologising is amazing!

Zaunfink
Zaunfink
4 years ago

Yeah. My mum sure is a piece of trash, seeing as how she chose a man who drowned while I wasn’t even born and then spent the next 18 years of her life giving me everything she could. That sounds logical.

The mind, it boggles.

NicolaLuna - epic slut
NicolaLuna - epic slut
4 years ago

A few days ago my 9 year old son asked to sleep in my bed. I said yes and he gave me a hug and said “you’re my best friend.” Clearly those feelings should not be tolerated.

I’ll be sure to tell him immediately that he needs to stop raising money for charity and baking cakes for homeless shelters and that he needs to start practicing crime and drug taking. Such a shame, he likes baking.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
4 years ago

These bitches failed hardcore when it came down to deciding who the father of their children was going to be.

I love how women are expected to evaluate men’s fatherhood potential before choosing a sexual partner, while men have no such constraints. So that when a relationship ends (and there is a child involved) the woman can be shamed and punished for making a poor choice, and the man can be congratulated for having dodged a bullet.

It’s a never-ending game of Double Standard Calvinball with these guys.

This is what happens when you try to upbring your children with feelings instead of logic!

10 PRINT ‘Go to bed’
30 INPUT STALLINGTACTIC$
40 PRINT ‘Error: Illogical ‘; STALLINGTACTICS$;’ Request Detected. Response Denied.’
50 GOTO 10

…As any extensible parental superclass can tell you, child-objects raised by emotionless machines definitely grow up to be well-adjusted non-criminal adults with zero attachment issues. (And all possible states of men and women can be stored inside binary variables.)

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
4 years ago

@Ohlmann, Neremanth,

“the plural of anecdote is not data” refer to the fact that anecdotes are already filtered. We only talk about unusual or interesting anecdote, which is why a collection of anecdote isn’t raw data at all. With work I am pretty sure I can find 100.000 anecdotes about muslims in France, and about 75% of them will be about them being the scum of the earth while the remaining 25% will them being the incarnation of patience and forgiveness. That’s not datas that would prove that muslims are alway either superheroes or villains.

Neremanth is right about my intentions. There’s a certain … fetishization of the methods of reduction in science which is most strongly felt in “hard” sciences, like physics and chemistry. It’s been very successful for them, and it’s given them six-sigma accuracy, which is incredible. They look at the results of the “soft” sciences with their much less sure results, and they say “well, reduce your problem, idiots!”

In doing this, they forget that the problems of the soft sciences are incredibly more complex than the problems of physics and chemistry and engineering and whatnot. Their methods fail, spectacularly, when applied to the ‘softer’ sciences.

“Anecdotes are not data” is a hard-science attitude which applies poorly to soft sciences, because an anecdote is a wealth of data, and in (for example) a social science, or medicine, it’s often the only way you’re going to get any useful information at all.

Further (and I love to point this out to the ‘hard’ scientists), every one of the data points on their graphs is an anecdote. “I was in the lab, and I did this thing, and it was late and I was tired, and I set up my equipment and ran the thing, and I looked at the dial, and it said 312.5 degrees.” That’s the anecdote. They scrub everything out except the 312.5, and then do statistics to predict error, etc, etc. But in the end they can’t hide from the fact that each one is a story about a specific even happening to real people, with its own quirks and details which are important to the results.

The anecdotes of the things they study are very simple. The anecdotes in the soft sciences are incredibly complex. The scrubbing they do of their data points just doesn’t work for anything more complicated.

The bridge between qualitative and quantitative analytics is vast and complex, and it’s sort of the area I live in – I do statistics on rich data sets with unsure and varying models. There’s no way to ignore the fact that uncleaned, fragmented anecdotes are really all you have to go on.

That infographic make me wonder how their brain function. Do they have an internal unconscious censor for anything that disagree with their worldview ? Or are they aware of their dishonesty ?

Everyone has that internal, unconscious censor, it’s inherent to how our brains construct our perception of the word. Their fabrications may or may not have exceeded it, and there’s no real way to know beyond them saying so, but everyone’s as capable of being just as blind as they are.

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
4 years ago

The fact that manospherians can unironically yell at women for using emotions when raising their children, is only further proof that the buzzwordification process of the words logic and emotions has rendered manospherians incapable of using these words in a way that makes sense to normal people. In their universe, logic now just means “good” and emotions means “bad”.

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
4 years ago

I’d be surprised if any of these guys are dads, frankly. Now, if the question was about whether their dad and mom divorced and they never saw dad afterwards or if he got himself a new wife and new kids while ignoring them…that sounds more likely.

The function is undefined

I’m guessing quite a few have fathered children (that does not make them Dads)

None of them are good Dads by definition – they’ve gone their own way and hate the mother of their children. I certain that NONE of them make a full contribution towards the financial burden of their children.

Deadbeat dads, yes. Who whine incessantly about all the child support they never pay.

I’ve met a number of guys who have been married to and/or had children with women who ended up being awful to them; I suspect some of that is in there. One is a friend of mine who’s managed to avoid being a horrible misogynist despite the fact, but I can imagine someone in the same circumstances turning in the same direction. I just wonder whether that’s a significant number of these jerks or not.

@msexceptiontotherule, your job sounds like the most stressful job in the worrrld. I’d dissolve into a weepy puddle in the corner. I’m glad for people like you who can stay int he ring and keep fighting for the kids’ right to stability and happiness, even when a parent (or two) is being awful. I’m not sure if you can say, but how often is it that the father is the one being horrible being the mother? Or both? I’m sure you’ve seen your fill of all of the above :p

@rugbyyogi, I’m glad you got away from that guy. Being a single mom is not so bad, and it can be wonderful. I hope it’s the latter for you, even with all the exhaustion and trials.

Oh, yes, and PAS is utter bullshit.

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
4 years ago

@Scildfreja:
Well, ‘anecdotes are not data’ is also a very medical science attitude, and medical science is a lot softer than most doctors like to admit due to the complexity involved; not to mention the ethical problems involved in a lot of the testing.

In that case, though, the statement is more against the whole idea of ‘I did miracle woo X and now I’m cured! Miracle woo X is great!’. No, regression to the mean is a thing, spontaneous remission is a thing, the fact that you discovered you were cured after taking the magic pills does not necessarily imply that the magic pills had anything to do with the cure.

The guy selling magic smoothies may have lots of great testimonials on his website, but the people who died despite what he was selling them aren’t going to be making any complaints, now, are they?

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
4 years ago

With my vision, the only parts of this I can read are the title and the words “ABUSIVE VIOLENCE.” Which makes it look like they’re threatening abusive violence against the woman.

… The point behind this mess is way more gettable for my legally-blind ass than it is for people who can actually read the damn thing, huh.

Elizabeth Regina
Elizabeth Regina
4 years ago

I was widowed last year.

TIL that now I’m an evil bitch, raising criminals who feel too much.

Nice.

My husband was a wonderful father, partner and friend and we all miss him very much.

When I worried how I would cope when he passed, he said, “Look, you’re working full time, looking after two school-aged kids and a very sick man – you’ll do fine.”

I think I trust his assessment rather than MGTOWs

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
4 years ago

Oh, I agree, Jenora – you don’t get six-sigma results in medicine but it’s very rigorous. I don’t mean “all anecdotes are equally valid”, either, I mean more “anecdotes are useful and should not simply be discarded when studying a thing.” Qualitative analysis is the foundation of understanding any phenomenon that doesn’t have an airtight model behind it. That’s all.

Scout
Scout
4 years ago

I’ve never read these angry rants by MRA’s and then see them as being logical in any sense of the word. They are MRA’s because of their feelings. They got their feelings hurt by all the women they’ve ever come in contact with, so they’re venting on Reddit or 4chan.

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
4 years ago

@Scildfreja:
Yes, I suspect we’re splitting hairs pretty finely here. Violently agreeing?

I mean, for a lot of pain management, anecdotes are really all you’re going to be able to get, and people just have to work with that. There isn’t really an objective measurement of pain; just measurements of some of the things that tend to cause it.

I understand the original annoyance being that ‘the plural of anecdote is not data’ can be and sometimes is misinterpreted to just dismiss anecdotes rather than seeing them as possible starting points for investigation. As you say, there are people that fetishize the methods involved. (I’ve heard the term ‘methodolatry’ bandied about at other blogs.)

I guess my original point was as much that even some of the so-called ‘hard’ sciences can be a lot softer than people think, and there’s no bright dividing line between hard and soft that won’t have things like medicine sprawling across it.

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
4 years ago

Medicine is such a fascinating topic. So many of the techniques developed there have spread out into other areas, and there’s so much wonderful cross-pollination of concepts between medicine, psychology, biology, sociology…

http://static1.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/4786934+_e8a67e3969b4bea3612441b9946b1e6a.png

One of my favourite techniques is propensity score analysis, which comes from medical researchers trying to suss useful correlations out of studies while allowing for the high ethical requirements of that research. My work in educational psychology analytics has similar ethical requirements, so it’s really a godsend – despite the deep and inherent flaws in the process.

Ramble, ramble. It’s sort of funny, really. Look at the statistical measures most “hard” sciences use and they’re really quite basic – most of their work is about how to actually make the measurements. Once they’ve got those measurements, the statistics are simple compared to the mind-crushing complexities required to clean a modern “soft science” data set. And they brag about that!

You’re very right, in that there’s no hard line between the “soft” and “hard” sciences. It’s all just normal people tryin to figure out things as best they can, with whatever tools they can get their hands on.

Steampunked
Steampunked
4 years ago

My partner is now the stay at home parent (wonder what that makes him in MRA terms – he confessed recently he was finding it harder than he had thought possible). When he worked his soul destroying job, he had a coworker who had been raised by psychologist parents in an attempt to create a ‘logical’ person.

The idea was to give the kid a nonemotional jump start in life and teach them analytical thinking. My partner described him as ‘Not so much well balanced as finely tuned’. The poor guy creeped everyone out and couldn’t handle the majority of situations, whether social or work related. He was profoundly fragile but very locked into his mindset since it was the foundation of his whole personality.

Belladonna "Toxic Hag"
Belladonna "Toxic Hag"
4 years ago

There’s absolutely no possible way that statistics like 39% of inmates had single mothers, while only 4% had single fathers could be remotely related to statistics like these from this article:

In 2012, 28 percent of all U.S. children lived with one parent. Of that number, 4.24 million single mothers lived below the poverty line compared to 404,000 single fathers, she noted.

I mean, I’m sure they were smart enough to control for the correlation between poverty and inmates. /s

msexceptiontotherule
msexceptiontotherule
4 years ago

@Scildfreja Unnýðnes

In my experience*, 70% are men (being horrible), and 30% are women – a lot of it seems to be due to the financial inequality (men having higher paid jobs and the privilege that comes with it turns them into monsters when suddenly ‘that bitch’ decides to leave with ‘his children’.)…however, I have had male clients who have been denied access to the children, has tried to make the split as fair and equitable as possible, but his former spouse has used the courts, law enforcement, and CPS to make his life hell.

*I deal with a lot of cases where DV is involved. It is something I’ve personally experienced and helping other survivors is deeply meaningful for me.

Aunt Podger
Aunt Podger
4 years ago

So… there’s an alleged link between single-parent households and people who land in jail/ prison?

What if, say, there were a link between raising a child on your own and having a lower income? What if there were a link between having a lower income and getting a negative outcome in a criminal trial that was, IIRC, stronger than the link between actual guilt and the crime of which one stands accused?

Such a thing could not be, because that would make the meme-maker subject to imperfect logic. It’s a female conspiracy to make him look bad and keep him from the sex that being perfectly masculine has, dammit, earned him, obviously.

ETA: In the interest of full disclosure: my ex-husband had physical custody of my daughter, because it made sense in our situation (I’m kind of a workaholic, among other things), and I paid child support and went to great lengths to have her stay with me as much as I could.

Kat
Kat
4 years ago

@Alan

Unfortunately the company behind the pipeline seem to think they can carry on regardless.

http://ir.energytransfer.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=106094&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=2227348

Good point, Alan!

Hence this tactic on the part of the water protectors:

Standing Rock activists stay in place, fearing pipeline victory was a ‘trick’
Though the US denied a permit for the Dakota Access pipeline, many worry that the Trump administration and the pipeline company could reverse the decision
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/05/dakota-access-pipeline-standing-rock-protest-trump

***************

@Neremanth

That story about the veterans apologising is amazing!

Yes! And so long overdue.

Although I’m not holding my breath, I still can’t wait for my government to make the same kind of apology — and set itself on a sustainable path.

****************
@Elizabeth Regina

When I worried how I would cope when he passed, he said, “Look, you’re working full time, looking after two school-aged kids and a very sick man – you’ll do fine.”

I’m so sorry about your loss.

And your late partner’s statement is a beautiful combination of logic and empathy.

tim gueguen
4 years ago

@NicolaLuna, maybe your son should start baking evil cakes. Like cakes that explode. Or contain some noxious substance, like zucchini.

Otrame
Otrame
4 years ago

@ Elisabeth Regina

He sounds like a sensible and wonderful guy. You were lucky to have him while you did, and I am truly sorry you lost him.

As for the OP, it never ceases to amaze me, how utterly pathetic these men are. Though the thought of actually talking to one IRL is more than a little horrifying, I confess to a sort of morbid curiousity. I would love to hear an answer to the question: “What, exactly, is it that you want? What would make you happy? Describe it to me. Because I can’t tell by reading your rhetoric. You complain so constantly, so inconsistently, and with such toxic bitterness that I don’t have any idea what would make you happy. Do you? “

Kat
Kat
4 years ago

@Otrame
If I can judge by my father and one of my brothers, both deceased now (who were MRAs in the before-time — even before the Interwebz was a thing), your questions would be met with silence and a smirk.

Like the rest of the extreme right, they got nothin’.

Except hatred.

And an inability to understand how to handle their own emotions.

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
4 years ago

I think they cannot be happy, as they demand the impossible on a par with square circles and colourless green – the service and devotion of mythical creatures who by definition cannot exist in reality, since it is not actually possible for human beings to have absolutely zero thoughts or desires of their own (not to mention that devotion requires sentience, and sentience in women causes them problems).
(They would not be happy with bots, as they demand to triumph over and subjugate real humans in order to give themselves a sense of self-worth, but they would not be happy with even the most lobotomised of humans either as what they actually want is a fantasy of continual triumph over and subjugation of fresh or infinitely re-freshed subjects. And now I feel rather sick).

LindsayIrene
4 years ago

some noxious substance, like zucchini

How dare you, sir. You have impugned the honor of my mom’s (delicious) zucchini bread.

Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent
Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent
4 years ago

@LindsayIrene

I express a similar sentiment, albeit for my grandmother’s take as opposed to my mother’s.

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
4 years ago

@Elizabeth Regina, I just read your comment. He sounds like he was wonderful. You sound like you are, too. I hope that his guess was wright, and you’re doing well!

@opposablethumbs, you’ve got me wondering with your comment about the connection between misogyny and various other reactionary mindsets. It has always felt to me that misogyny was one head of the hydra – there’s a deeper and more fundamental hate or resentment at the seat of it, and the various prejudices we all know just take turns on the throne. Sexism (as far as I know) has no direct biological root, unlike racism, but there are heuristics that are similar which must influence.

My first thought it is “authoritarianism,” the belief that people should organize and be faithful to a leader. It’s part of our social thought processes to evaluate people for “qualities of a leader”, whatever those are, and then to act in some way relative to the leaderbot. That’s not a right-or-left thing, either – if anything, it appears that the left has a stronger urge towards authoritarianism than the right. I imagine that “leader” could also be a concept.

Is that what’s firing here? Is the misogyny all nothing more than “you don’t look like a leader-type, so shut up and sit down”? Or is something else going on there? Interesting stuff.

Elizabeth Regina
Elizabeth Regina
4 years ago

Thanks for the kind comments.

He was a great man and father, such a good emotional support, even when things were very tough for him.

He also didn’t put up with bullshit or bigotry. I hope I’m doing okay by his standards – everyone else can go jump.

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
4 years ago

@Scildfreja, perhaps one common thread at least is insecurity: seeking a kind of security in strong/rigid/immutable hierarchies and in the notion that one has one’s rightful place in same, with some kind of leader-figure (politician/deity/etc.) to guide you and always always the reassurance that there are plenty of people permanently below you (there may or may not be people of the “wrong” and “inferior” colour and attributes around for you to hate on, but there are almost always women and children not far away no matter what the context).

Um …. ??????

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
4 years ago

ETA … which is in no way an excuse, of course. One can have insecurities, and one can have good reason to have insecurities, without thereby becoming a misogynistic (or racist or otherwise bigoted) PoS.

Nangleator
4 years ago

It’s generally against the terms of use for stock image actors to be humiliated.

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
4 years ago

@Scildfreja:
Of course, if you want an example of trying to make medicine as hard as possible, there’s the specialty field of bioinformatics. Too much information to sort by hand, too many squishy spots to handle with traditional computing (DNA matching has to account for the fact that some amino acids can be produced by as many as six different DNA sequences)… during the original Human Genome Project, they had to develop an entire new field for the tools required.

(I actually had a character in a story I wrote be a major in bioinformatics with a psychology background before that… before working as a counsellor on an AI project.)

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
4 years ago

We actually do work with a microfluidics lab that handles a lot of the same problems! We help them with the AI techniques needed to make sense of their ocean of data. Convolutional nets to the rescue \o/ That really is the rewarding thing of this job. You get to make some amount of sense out of the hopelessly senseless, and get to make everyone happy.

I like your story concept! It sounds, uh, very familiar.

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
4 years ago

@opposablethumbs, mmmmaybe. I don’t know, it’s hard to tell whether the feeling of insecurity is the cause or if it’s just a correlative excuse for the behaviour. Interesting idea though.

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
4 years ago

*chuckles* Well, that was just the character background for one of the primary characters. The short story itself was more about a project for ‘growing’ an AI by creating a VR world and raising the AIs as characters in it surrounded by motion-capture actors, and sometimes getting to play with other children via a video wall. And what happens when the sole success from the first phase of the project starts getting bored because everybody is now focusing on the SECOND phase of the project instead. (So, effectively, a human-raised AI now getting jealous of all the attention given to her little brother.)

Not particularly groundbreaking, but I had fun with it.

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
4 years ago

Certainly a metric fuck-tonne of excuses involved, probably completely obscuring anything else!

Maybe it’s just that bigotry-as-a-misdirected-desperation-for-certainty is the nearest thing to something I can personally sort of get my head round – i.e. it’s really just me trying vainly to rationalise something that makes no sense: that all too many people really do enjoy causing harm. Despite all evidence to the contrary, in a world where it’s only too common.
Imagination fail on my part, I suspect :-\

Dalillama, Effort Chicken
Dalillama, Effort Chicken
4 years ago

@Scildfreja

if anything, it appears that the left has a stronger urge towards authoritarianism than the right

That’s certainly an…interesting claim. Perhaps you’d care to substantiate it?

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
4 years ago

@Dalillama,

Originally, this paper

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1540-5907.2011.00568.x/full

suggested that conservatives were more positively correlated with authoritarianism, etc. Published back in 2012, and cited pretty widely. It was retracted and reversed earlier this year

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/11/liberals-not-conservatives-more-likely-possess-psy/

with the authors saying that they had reversed the results, and that it was liberal leanings that rated higher on that part of the scale (what they label “psychoticism”), with conservatives rating higher for other areas that were previously considered liberal (“Neuroticism” and a few other things. I’m not as familair with the psychological model they’re using).

I’d also like to point out that the study, while good, only hinted at the results, and didn’t show anything conclusively. As usual, the conclusions found in the study bear little resemblance to what’s spoken about in public discourse. Specifically, the study examined peoples’ political leanings as well as finding their standings on a questionnaire related to the Five-Factor model (One of the sources of the ‘dark triad’ concept).

A really interesting paper, and wow, that error. The paper’s been cited in over 100 follow up works, and I shudder to think of how far it’s propagated from there.

weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo

It appears that study is behind a paywall and I can’t read it but I’m wondering what the questions about political leanings and attitudes consist of?

On the surface it would seem that conservatives (in the USian sense) would be anti-authoritarian if you take them at their word. They say they like small government and individual liberty. They perceive themselves as meritocrats and as good people therefore they can’t be bigoted.

In reality, conservatives say they’re for liberty but support authoritarian policies. They are anti-choice. They are for militarized police using force. They like the drug war. They like stop and frisk and racial profiling. They like imperialism. They use meritocracy as a way to avoid addressing the way that marginalized people are disadvantaged in our society.

So, how do you measure authortarianism without relying on the disingenuous or delusional beliefs the right always seem to have about themselves.

Maybe the paper addresses this? Like I said, I can’t see it.

It’s of course entirely possible that I have biases preventing me from seeing how liberals could possibly be more authoritarian than conservatives but based on everyone I’ve ever known, I’ve got to say I’m incredulous. I do think both the left and right can do a cult of personality, but it when it comes to holding authoritarian views, the right definitely wins in my experience.

Snowberry
Snowberry
4 years ago

@weirwoodtreehugger:

Well, the highly religious portion of the Right considers themselves “meritocratic” in the sense that they believe in a just world fallacy on steroids because of god. Except most of them also seem to have a double standard where “bad things happen, therefore it’s deserved” doesn’t apply to themselves because of fundamental attribution error.

Many of them also believe in “freedom” in the sense of “freedom of my religion to persecute those not of my religion” plus the freedom of having a captive audience. I’m not sure if most of them also believe in freedom from the same being done to them, or if they’d be happy to be persecuted because of martyr complex.

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
4 years ago

Sorry! I know the paper’s behind a paywall :\ It’s NIH. At least, that’s the one I have access to. Here’s the assessment inventory they’re using for personality metrics:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eysenck_Personality_Questionnaire

The inventory for assessing conservatism/liberalism is something called the Wilson-Patterson Conservatism Scale, which hasn’t got a wikipedia article, unfortunately.

(I’m a little leery about that one myself, Wilson is apparently sort of an evolutionary psychologist with annoying tendencies towards explaining things away through the magic of evolution, but it’s one of the standards of the field so I’m in no position to cry foul.)

Anyways, here is the part of the paper that discusses the conclusions regarding authoritarianism. Remember, when it says “conservative”, they mean liberal, and when they say “liberal” they mean conservative, because of the error. (Also important to note that they distinguish between economic and social conservatism / liberalism here.

In line with our expectations, P (positively related to tough-mindedness and authoritarianism) is associated with social conservatism and conservative military attitudes. Intriguingly, the strength of the relationship between P and political ideology differs across sexes. P’s link with social conservatism is stronger for females while its link with military attitudes is stronger for males. We also find individuals higher in Neuroticism are more likely to be economically liberal. Furthermore, Neuroticism is completely unrelated to social ideology, which has been the focus of many in the field. Finally, those higher in Social Desirability are also more likely to express socially liberal attitudes.

And here’s the part on how they collected their data:

The sample is derived from the Mid Atlantic Twin Registry (MATR) based on a survey conducted in the late 1980s, dubbed the Virginia 30,000. Approximately 40% of the sample was recruited from the larger Virginia area, and the remaining were solicited through a national AARP mailer. At the time, both groups favored slightly more conservative political attitudes. The sample contains 28,877 individuals who are all familial relatives of the core population of roughly 12,000 twins. For more detail on the sample structure, ascertainment, and questionnaire, see Eaves et al. (1999).

There’s a lot more in there, and it’s a real mess of technical jargon, as one might expect. The terms are annoying and definitions are hard to come by. I’m no expert there, so it’s hard to extrapolate real-world meaning out of it, but there seems to be some tentative findings to be had there.

I was surprised by the outcome too! Still puzzling over what it means in a larger sense. I’ve been a lot more introspective about whether my actions are reflective of a pull towards authoritarianism as a result. Not sure what to make of it, really.

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
4 years ago

Forgot to include a more expanded definition of P:

Rather, P is positively correlated with tough-mindedness, risk-taking, sensation-seeking, impulsivity, and authoritarianism (Adorno et al. 1950; Altemeyer 1996; Eysenck and Eysenck 1985, McCourt et al. 1999). In social situations, those who score high on P are more uncooperative, hostile, troublesome, and socially withdrawn, but lack feelings of inferiority and have an absence of anxiety. At the extremes, those scoring high on P are manipulative, tough-minded, and practical (Eysenck 1954). By contrast, people low on P are more likely to be more altruistic, well socialized, empathic, and conventional (Eysenck and Eysenck 1985; Howarth 1986). As such, we expect higher P scores to be related to more conservative political attitudes, particularly for militarism and social conservatism.

In the above, they’re talking about their expectations of P: that they should correlate with conservatism. They originally had that expectation confirmed; that was the error. So now I don’t know what they’re thinking!

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
4 years ago

Still puzzling over what it means in a larger sense.

I’m pretty sure it means “This whole study’s about as reliable as a chain email from GuaranteedHomeopathyCuresForHIV.org.”

(I’m going to headbutt a wall if that’s a real site.)

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
4 years ago

@Scildfreja

the authors saying that they had reversed the results

Ha! But yeah, I don’t doubt the conclusions. Or the revised, unreversed conclusions rather. Interesting findings…