More than a week after an exuberantly Naziesque speech by alt-right hipster Richard Spencer inspired a spate of Nazi salutes from attendees at the National Policy Institute, the assorted factions of the alt-right are still debating whether or not the salutes were super-cool, or maybe not so cool, or just fun little jokes, or part of a secret plot to make the alt-right look not so super-cool. (See here for a more detailed breakdown.)
Now everyone’s favorite repugnant “pickup artist” Roosh Valizadeh has weighed in on the subject, offering what is perhaps the most convoluted sort-of defense of Spencer I’ve seen so far.
Roosh has a bit of a strange history with the so-called alt right. After wading gingerly into the Nazi pond with a blog post hailing the anti-Semitic theories of far-right academic Kevin Macdonald last year, he got an invite to one of Spencer’s previous NPI conventions, only to discover once there that neo-Nazis aren’t exactly fans of middle-eastern looking dudes like him who, as Roosh oh-so-hilariously put it, “have ‘defiled’ six million white women,” which doesn’t even make sense as a Holocaust joke. Thus rebuffed, Roosh counterattacked, declaring that “the alt right is worse than feminism in attempting to control male sexual behavior,” which in Rooshland is an insult of the direst sort.
Now Roosh has decided to defend Spencer, sort of. Sure, he admits, the “Roman” salutes at the NPI conference did make the alt-right look a teensy bit bad, at least when filtered through the lens of the evil lügenpresse. The video of Spencer’s speech put online by The Atlantic,
starts with a white man [Spencer] shouting “Hail” to the new President of the United States, whom the media viscerally hates, while a small minority of attendees exuberantly throw up the Roman salute. Even if you are a conservative, you have been programmed to feel revulsion at this display of “Nazism” and immediately condemn it because of its racism. Not long after, the media forced Donald Trump’s hand and he did disavow Spencer. One viral video, one mission accomplished.
Many alt-right apologists and hangers-on, including a lot of people Roosh admires, also “disavowed” the salutes and the saluters. Roosh, while trying his best not to offend any of them, suggests that they should have defended Spencer and his fans.
Let’s imagine a different scenario. When the viral video came out, instead of attack Spencer, we attacked The Atlantic for taking scenes from the conference out of context.
Er, the context for the Nazi salutes was a neo-Nazi conference. But never mind,
We forced them to reveal the truth of attendees being assaulted by violent liberal thugs.
Not quite. There were protesters, and at least one fight broke out, though it seems to have been started by one of the white supremacists.
We disseminated the truth of the conference far and wide. And most importantly, we defended the right of attendees to put up whatever salute they want as part of their free speech at a private event, even if we find it abhorrent.
By not defending the saluters, Roosh argues, “we have given up our own ability to do a Roman salute, even as a joke.”
Roosh asks his readers to imagine what might have happened had “Spencer ‘got away’ with these Roman salutes.” The evil media
wouldn’t be able to attack us for anything. No rape joke, fat joke, or meme would be extreme compared to it. Our free speech would have expanded if we helped Spencer, but that opportunity is lost. We now get to wait for an energized media to attack us, and it most certainly will be for less than a Roman salute.
In other words:
First they came for the Nazi saluters, and we did not speak out, because we were not Nazi saluters.
Then they came for the fat-shaming rape jokers and, damn, that’s us!
Nonetheless, Roosh is confident that the alt-right will survive Salutegate, and still thinks highly of them — even though he knows he wouldn’t be welcome in the all-white America of their dreams.
They will lick their wounds and get stronger, because they don’t need the media and they don’t need Trump. Their sales pitch of “America will be better with only white people” is too seductive for marginalized white men to resist, and in spite of their obsession with race, there is intellect and truth-telling underneath it.
Roosh even thinks that the current infighting between hardcore alt-white supremacists and the alt-lite opportunists who’ve glommed onto the movement is a good thing.
Now that the schism has taken place, men like Mike Cernovich, Paul Joseph Watson, and Stefan Molyneux have a clear path to the top as part of their “new right” platform. There is no Nazi taint to hold them back.
You know, aside from the Nazi taint that lingers from the fact that they’ve all been enthusiastically promoting an essentially fascist movement, teeming with full-on Hitler-loving neo-Nazis, for a year?
As far as I’m concerned, they’re all Nazi taints.
The story of this “schism” is almost certainly going to get weirder from here.
@kupo,
That’s just fab. Westley forever!
Slightly related to the current post – this short, anonymous piece in the Guardian recounting someone’s experience of being radicalised to the alt-right. I really wish it had more detail, but it’s interesting nonetheless.
Quite a few peeps on Twitter are angry that the article talks about Sam Harris and Milo Y. as if they’re on a continuum.
Thanks for that, Mish, that’s fantastic. I shall quote it to everyone I know.
(Most people I know are Guardian-readers and so will have read it already, but still.)
The Olympic salute used to be identical to the nazi salute.
This has caused some confusion with footage from the 1936 games where it looks like everyone is joining in the Nazi enthusiasm (obviously some teams, like Austria, actually were).
They have now abandoned that salute fortunately.
@ podkayne
Well I went to Catholic school and that’s a new one on me; but to quote Father Ted…
Here’s my general reaction to anything Roosh writes anymore:
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n133/JameslySirius/Sherlock-EyeRoll.gif
Right. If only, if only, if only you had demanded that the media show the context — anti-Nazi protesters! — then no one would have or could have faulted you for your Nazi, er, Roman salutes.
And after you had saluted Roman-style, the battle would have been won. No one would have or could have faulted you for any insults directed at women or fat people or other victims, because anti-Nazi protesters.
But now! Tragically, that opportunity is lost!
Can it return? No. There’s no way that Spencer could ever call another group of Nazis together and give a speech that moves them to salute Nazi-style, that is to say, Roman-style.
And so, sadly, the media — energized by not having had Nazis demand that they show the context, which was anti-Nazi protests — will move in for the kill. If any of you utters a peep about preferring slender women to fat women, your life, as you know it, is over.
And all because you did not demand that the media show the context.
@Mish, I was just coming over to look for somewhere to post that exact link!
I particularly liked (well, you know what I mean) the way he quietly draws the connection between what the online far-right shits are doing – which doesn’t get all that much coverage in maistream media as far as I can see – and the way we generally refer to/seek to prevent the radicalisation of “muslim youth”. I hadn’t ever drawn the specific radicalisation parallel before.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/28/alt-right-online-poison-racist-bigot-sam-harris-milo-yiannopoulos-islamophobia
OT (I can’t remember which one was the thread where this was being discussed) – annual world anti-homophobia day in Cuba (“homosexuality isn’t a danger, homophobia is” – started 2007):
It’s from this interview in 2010, in which Castro says they fucked up massively in the 60s and beyond, and that it’s his responsibility.
sorry I forgot to put in the interview link:
http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2010/08/31/mundo/026e1mun
I love how some of them are still trying to pass this off as “a joke” or “ironic”. Spencer was straight-up repeating Nazi talking points while at least some of his audience threw up Nazi salutes, where the hell was the irony?
@Austin Loomis: ah, you made me literally LOL, thank you!
I’d personally say it’s acceptable to throw the Roman salute if you’re doing some Roman army re-enactment or the like. (Is that even a thing? It should be.) Outside of that context, though…
@ Christina
It’s a rare Roman history documentary over here that doesn’t feature an appearance from this lot.
http://www.erminestreetguard.co.uk
@Christina Nordlander:
“Irony”, in alt-Right mouths, has a specific meaning. It means “I meant this sincerely but want to escape the consequences for saying it.” It’s why the term is so often used as a post-hoc escape hatch.
This is one of the many reasons why it’s ironic that they – and those adjacent to them – use the word “rational” to describe themselves.
Valizadeh is only defending the alt-right because they now represent the vanguard of the movement to make bigotry in all forms acceptable again in modern society. I am certain that he is aware that the alt-right would just as soon turn on him, but until that time comes, he will continue to follow behind them at a distance, squatting in the ruins that they leave behind.
Re: The Guardian article, I’m struck by how it appears that men are particularly susceptible to radicalization across various cultures. What is the commonality in their experiences that makes it so?
@scildfreja
“ “Roman salute” is the most blatant merkin I’ve ever seen ”
Look forward to being told you’re overreacting when you see them with ‘indian cross’ armbands as part of their ‘matching outfits’ while doing the ‘Prussian march’ next time around
OT ramble:
You know how old people sometimes just fall? I don’t know many old people, but I used to have grandparents on my dad’s side. They would sometimes fall, and it would always be a scary event. Initially, you didn’t know if they fell because of something dangerous, or if the fall had caused something dangerous to happen. Did grandpa fall because he had a heart attack, or did he break his arm because he fell? The first information would always be a phone call from the other grandparent, saying “he/she fell“.
When I was little, my grandpa fell several times. He fell once because he had heart problem. Another time he fell because he had an infection in his arm which made him dizzy. Once or twice he tripped on a rug and couldn’t get up. My grandma also fell a number of times. She fell once when descending the icy stairs outside our house on Christmas Eve. No huge damage that time. She fell once at the supermarket, and some friendly strangers made sure she was okay, helped her up, and put her in a cab to take her home.
Every time the house phone rang, which was very often in those days, I would have a pang of anxiety. I’d listen to my dad’s or mom’s voice, tone and words, trying to determine if it was my grandparents calling, and whether it was a good call or a bad call. A few times, my dad would sound very serious on the phone. After he’d hung up, he would call an ambulance and get his coat on. He would tell us that he needed to head over to my grandparents’ apartment, and that he would go to the hospital with one of them. We didn’t know what had happened, but I could be certain that at least one of them had fell.
One time in the summer, when I was around 9 or 10 years old, I was on the balcony in my grandparents apartment, together with grandpa. We heard some strange noise from the kitchen, and my grandpa asked me to go see if everything was okay. When I got to the kitchen, grandma was on the floor, unresponsive and repeatedly moaning in a frightening way. I ran back to the balcony and told my grandpa: “she fell!”
That particular time, grandma fell because she had a stroke. She didn’t have the stroke because she fell. I wasn’t worried that she would fall again, but rather that she would have another stroke and then also fall. After this, grandma had bad aphasia and we spent the last decade of her life re-learning how to read, write and speak. She was always in a wheelchair when my grandparents went out. I didn’t have to worry abot grandma falling anymore, and grandpa had the wheelchair handles to hold on to, so I figured he was less likely to fall as well.
Eventually she had another stroke, and then she fell for the last time. Grandpa never fell again, mostly because he didn’t bother to get up very often. A few years later, he fell asleep and didn’t wake up.
I’m reminded of this now, because I just had my first “old person fall” at age 31, almost 32. Because of my arthritis, I find that I can’t always rely on my body being able to do the things I expect of it. Yesterday morning I got out of bed, took two steps and then my knees gave out. I fell backwards against the window sill, which dug into the side of my chest. My head then hit the wood between the windows and I bounced back onto the bed. At first I thought I had broken a rib or two, but after a few minutes of deep breathing the initial pain settled. I had a headache, but nothing worse than what I get after a day without coffee. Today the side of my ribs has a giant purple bruise, and I can feel it when I move my right arm.
I told my wife that I slipped on a sock. I figure it’s better to have her worry about my bad habit to leave dirty clothes on the floor.
@ IP
I’m sorry to hear about that. I hope this doesn’t sound trite, but have you considered having some ‘falling lessons’. My mum used to organise these when she worked for the council in elderly care; but they’re handy for anyone who may be at risk of falling, say whilst recovering from a leg injury or through illness.
The principle is to get into some automatic habits so you minimise the risk of further injury. It’s especially important to protect your head as you’ve probably found out the hard way. Obviously the lessons can’t guarantee you won’t get injured, but they can mitigate some of the risks. Over here the lessons are organised by local authorities and some NHS clinics, so hopefully you can find the equivalent over there.
@Alan
Yeah, definitely. I am in contact with a physiotherapist already. Thanks for the suggestion.
So, Roosh is Peter Pettigrew now?
@ IP
No worries. I had a look at some of the course material and weirdly it’s pretty much what they teach in judo classes; so I like to imagine my mum was secretly training up an army of ninja pensioners. Hope they can sort something for you.
That’s interesting that there’s falling lessons.
I’m a klutz and frequently slip on ice and trip over stuff. But I never really get hurt and am often able to regain footing and I think it’s because as a former diver, I retained an ability to just know where in the air my body is and how to position it. I’m sure the more I age, the less that will be true but still might help me later in life.
It’s a skill most people wouldn’t even think about it but is actually very useful. Maybe schools should focus more on agility and not just strength and cardio sports and activities for PE.
Well, there’s the “finger under nose-stache, limp raising of wrist salute”, which is basically “I think you’re a Nazi” or “Nazis are stupid” version. Then there’s an anti-fascist TV campaign we had in CZ, called “Be kind to your local Nazi”, where Nazi-saluting actors made fun of actual neo-Nazis in a hilarious way:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kt46Gl0U4P4
.. similarly Chaplain, etc.
@Victorious Parasol
Kinda? Except that Valizadeh has a vested interest beyond mere survival in seeing the alt-right succeed in making bigotry great again, as it means that his own pet brand of hate cannot be ‘shouted down’ as easily (whereas IIRC Pettigrew generally aligned himself with the seemingly-victorious force – be it the Order or the Death Eaters – mostly to save his own skin). Which is somehow worse; I’d rather that Valizadeh have been a mere coward.
@Christina Nordlander
That would be a reasonable thing if the roman salute had a basis in historical fact. It doesn’t. Re-enactors using it may as well be saying “we learned everything we know about Romans from reading Asterix!”
@IP
Seconding Alan, plus:
Have a look into yoga as well. I know with arthritis you are limited in what movements you can do (and that really fucking sucks) but it will help with maintaining your balance automatically and it will help you with any falls.
I would also give a pass on Nazi salutes for people in a performance of The Producers.
@Petal
I’m sorry about your fall. Arthritis sucks. 🙁