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Professor Douchecanoe manosphere-splains feminism to coeds

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Professor Douchecanoe will see you now

One of the strange superpowers of the modern Manosphere intellectual is the ability to pontificate endlessly, and with utmost confidence, on a subject — feminism — that they know absolutely nothing about. You could even say they know less than nothing about it, in that the few things they do think they know about it are completely and utterly wrong.

Today, the reliably terrible Return of Kings posted a prime example of what we might call the manosphere-splaining of feminism in the form of a post (archived here) by Beau Albrecht with the patronizing title “An Open Letter To Women Who Still Believe In Feminism.”

In other words, a guy who doesn’t know crap about feminism has decided to explain feminism to women who do actually know something about it. To paraphrase Mary McCarthy’s famous dis of Lillian Hellman, pretty much every word of Albrecht’s post is wrong, including “and” and “the.”

The post goes completely off the rails by the second paragraph:

I’m here to discuss radical feminism, which is the only variety that gets much attention and media access.

Like most antifeminists, Albrecht doesn’t actually know what radical feminism is, or what sets it apart from non-radical feminism, simply using it as a synonym for “all the feminists I don’t like,” a group that pretty much includes, well, all feminists except for mythologized first-wave feminists who were all polite and stuff, and possibly anti-feminist “feminists” like Christina Hoff Sommers.

Since the Second Wave arose—beginning in the mid-1950s, and kicking into high gear in the mid-1960s—feminism has been telling you that we live under a patriarchy, men are responsible for all your problems (“the personal is political”), we’re a bunch of evildoers, and so forth.

Here’s my Open Letter to dudes trying to explain feminism to feminists:

Dear dudes trying to explain feminism to feminists, 

It helps if you get the basic facts about feminism straight. 

Love, David

PS: Second wave feminism didn’t start in the 1950s; it started, very tentatively, in the early 1960s and only really took off on the late 1960s.

PPS: What difference does it make if you’re off by five or ten years in your dates, you ask? Because history involving women matters as much as history involving men. If you were writing an essay about Ronald Reagan and you said he had been elected to the presidency in 1972 or 1976, everyone reading your essay would know that you don’t know crap about crap.

PPPS: I mean, this is all stuff you could look up in two seconds on Wikipedia, or with a single Google search. 

Albrecht continues on in this fashion, piling nonsense upon nonsense; his attempts to rebut statistics showing that a significant number of female college students are raped every year are undercut not only by his disingenuous use of stats but also by the fact that he keeps referring to said female college students as “coeds,” which conjures up images like the one at the start of this post.

The rest of Albrecht’s post is a collection of manosphere clichés we’ve all seen dozens of times. He suggests that the root case of misogyny is women being mean — and that some men are so disgusted by snarky women that they literally turn themselves gay, “finding it to be better than nothing.” He mentions sexbots, and Japanese “herbivores,” and “cultural Marxism.” He declares that antifeminists like him “care about you more than the feminists.”

There is the obligatory reference to Sex and the City, which Albrecht naturally refers to as Sex in the City.

If you spend your 20s partying and “finding yourself” as you’ve been encouraged to do, don’t expect Mr. Big to be waiting around patiently to sweep you off your feet after you’ve aged and decided it’s time to settle down. Actually, many Mr. Bigs used to be those nerds you wouldn’t have given a second look to back in college. 

Sex and the City is such a completely fresh and original cultural reference that it’s likely many of Albrecht’s manosphere readers are going to spend much of the night tonight creepily hitting on women born after the show first went on the air in 1998.

There’s even a genuine “we hunted the mammoth” moment as Albrecht tries to convince women of the many fine benefits of patriarchy:

It was all on us to provide for you and the kids; be it by working on an assembly line all day, in a coal mine, digging ditches, or under the hot sun tilling the fields. … We got drafted in wars to protect you. We let you have first place on lifeboats. Meanwhile, women were tending the children and doing housework. All told, it wasn’t quite such a bad trade-off for women.

Look at this picture of men gallantly farming away for their pampered stay-at-home wives.

the-gleaners-1857-jpglarge

I don’t know why they’re all dressed as women. Probably just some gleaner thing.

Perhaps the most telling moment in the post comes during Albrecht’s attempt to prove that rape culture isn’t real.

Think about it a minute. We’re bigger and stronger than you. If we really were savages, we would be doing whatever we wanted to you, especially if that truly was approved by our culture. The reason you don’t have to pepper spray someone every day is that the vast majority of us are actually decent, civilized people. There are a few exceptions; they end up going to prison, and rightly so, where they’re despised even by the other criminals.

There’s just a teensy bit of an irony in the fact that Albrecht is posting this on a site run by everybody’s favorite repugnant “pickup artist” Roosh Valizadeh, an allegedly “ironic” proponent of rape legalization who has himself been accused of rape.

Yeah, the rest of this post isn’t going to be terribly funny.

In his book Bang Iceland, Roosh offered this account of one of his “dates,” if they can be called that:

While walking to my place, I realized how drunk she was. In America, having sex with her would have been rape, since she couldn’t legally give her consent. It didn’t help matters that I was relatively sober, but I can’t say I cared or even hesitated.

I won’t rationalize my actions, but having sex is what I do.

In a book called 30 Bangs, Roosh wrote about his inability to take no for an answer:

It took four hours of foreplay and at least thirty repetitions of “No, Roosh, no” until she allowed my penis to enter her vagina. No means no—until it means yes.

Roosh went on to note that:

The sex was painful for her … She whimpered like a wounded puppy dog the entire time, but I really wanted to have an orgasm, so I was “almost there” for about ten minutes. After sex she sobbed for a good while … .

In Bang Ukraine, Roosh wrote this about a woman he got into an argument with during sex:

She tried to squirm away while I was laying down my strokes so I had to use some muscle to prevent her from escaping.

Apparently some men really are savages, at least by Albrecht’s definition of the term.

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Eyes on the Right
4 years ago

Thank you for doing a write-up on this. I saw it and thought to myself, “No, this is too grating.”

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
4 years ago

they literally turn themselves gay

Nope

Eyes on the Right
4 years ago

And of course he selects three quotes concerning lesbianism that are from the 1970s. Antiquated gay-baiting, I give it a 2/10.

Robyn Ryan
Robyn Ryan
4 years ago

Hurt their fees-fees, and they crumble.
Trumpettes.
If you have to brag about getting laid, you don’t get laid very often.

NickNameNick
NickNameNick
4 years ago

You almost have to think alt-righters, antifeminists, etc. are just too lazy to do their own research – which is probably why they go around saying “CITATION NEEDED!” instead of, I don’t know, looking for sources themselves.

It’s not like they care about the source of information anyway, since they’ll probably dismiss it and just pull whatever rationalization comes straight from the recesses of their ass. It’s a rhetorical tactic where you wear down your opponent so much that they eventually just stop wanting to discuss and you supposedly “win.” They don’t want to have a discussion. They don’t want to talk with people – they want to talk at others until they submit.

Maybe I’m a bit bitter because of experience, but it’s hard to not be a little disgruntled at having to clarify yourself several times over and then coming to the realization it was all a waste of time. You can back up everything you say while they don’t – yet, time and time again, they’ll act as if you aren’t putting in the effort with their asinine brand of internalized logic.

It’s particularly bad when they haven’t read a goddamn word you wrote and it doesn’t become obvious until later, when they slip up and admit they missed the entire point you made while just projecting whatever they wanted it to be about. They may as well be talking to themselves in the fucking mirror.

Eyes on the Right
4 years ago

@NickNameNick

Maybe I’m a bit bitter because of experience, but it’s hard to not be a little disgruntled at having to clarify yourself several times over and then coming to the realization it was all a waste of time.

Right, there’s only so many times you can explain that rape culture doesn’t mean we don’t have laws against rape or that men in general are consciously pro-rape or something. Then you come to the realization that they have their strawman arguments and your time would be better spent on explaining third wave feminism to a wall.

Paradoxical Intention - Resident Cheeseburger Slut

It was all on us to provide for you and the kids;

Because men told women constantly that they weren’t good enough to earn a man’s wage, and even then lower and middle-class women still had to work to keep the family afloat.

And of course, women worked in the fields helping tend the crops, they helped herd the livestock, and they did all of this while still making their men dinner and tending to the children.

But, reality has never stopped a RoKer before, I suppose.

be it by working on an assembly line all day,

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http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/69/6928/FVJX100Z/posters/men-and-women-working-on-a-radio-assembly-line-in-washington-d-c-area-1925.jpg

http://techpinions.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/assembly-line-women.jpg

in a coal mine,

http://www.piesandpiers.0catch.com/lasses2.JPG

http://2jnjpz34p77w1q3shs2fsoem.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/AE_Art_Review_HipLady_byTedWathen-1024×535.jpg

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http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/00521/TH04_PARENTS_ALONG__521175g.jpg

digging ditches,

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http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_JWVFJFbeyc/UCK1xz1SesI/AAAAAAAAAKY/2Sf7_-eSXQg/s1600/women+can+dig+ditches+too.jpg

http://c8.alamy.com/comp/B4WE8Y/a-ditching-party-of-women-of-the-volunteer-land-corps-at-work-digging-B4WE8Y.jpg

http://orientalreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/013.jpeg

or under the hot sun tilling the fields.

http://previews.123rf.com/images/jackf/jackf1212/jackf121200626/16884468-Two-women-working-in-field-of-carrot-Stock-Photo.jpg

http://www.medievalchronicles.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/medieval-women-working-in-field.jpg?737143

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… We got drafted in wars to protect you.

Women weren’t allowed in all positions in the US army until January 2016.

That’s right. Women weren’t allowed to serve in all military positions until this year.

And you know who supports women being in the military? Feminists. Like me.

You know who wants to do away with the draft altogether? Feminists like me.

You know who wants to have a gender-neutral draft if we MUST have one? Feminists like me.

And even then, there were plenty of badass women who fought in wars.

We let you have first place on lifeboats.

That’s actually not true.

However, I do think it’s a good idea to let children go first when it comes to lifeboats, as they’re most likely to not be able to swim.

And I’d sincerely doubt any of you assholes would let a child go before you on a lifeboat.

Meanwhile, women were tending the children and doing housework.

While also working the fields and a job, but hey, facts aren’t important to a man who thinks he knows everything!

All told, it wasn’t quite such a bad trade-off for women.

Then why the fuck aren’t you jumping for the chance to be a stay-at-home dad, Douchecanoe?

weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo

Japanese “herbivores,”

Sigh. I love how they always tell us that western women are so fat and mean and horrible, unlike the thin, beautiful and submissive women of Asia (which is of course a single culture) where no feminism exists and things are still good for men. Then they turn around and try to use herbivores as evidence that feminism is driving men to MGTOWdom.

Also, from my limited understanding of the phenomenon, it’s got nothing to do with feminism. The cost of living is high and there are limited opportunities. Because Japan isn’t terribly feminist, men are still expected to be the main breadwinner and women are expected to quit their jobs when they get married. This makes marriage and babies unappealing to men because it puts a huge amount of financial pressure on them and it’s unappealing to women who want to do something other than be a housewife. The herbivore thing is an argument for more feminism, not less. In fact, the whole thing tells me that feminism is absolutely essential for a modern technologically advanced economy to thrive.

Manospherians really have a knack for own goal scoring don’t they?

NickNameNick
NickNameNick
4 years ago

@Eyes on the Right:

It’s funny how many of those same people who’ll disparage feminists for having “echo chambers” never seem to consider the fact those feminists aren’t discussing anything with you might be due to being impossible to talk to. The onus is on everyone else to accept their bullshit while refusing to put in even a small fraction of the effort to tolerate others. Yet apparently it’s the feminists who want “special treatment”!

I’d compare it to someone who doesn’t get how metaphors works and starts making absurd demands about how they do work:

“Man, my feet are barking like dogs…”
“FEET AREN’T CANINES AND CAN’T BARK!”
“I never said they were.”
“THEN DON’T DESCRIBE THEM THAT WAY!”
“I’m saying they ache – have you never heard that phrase before?”
“IT’S SCIENTIFICALLY INACCURATE!”
“…What…?”
“ALL METAPHORS MUST BE SCIENTIFICALLY ACCURATE!”
“Who the hell said that? I’ve literally never heard another person make that claim.”
“LOOK, JUST BELIEVE ME – I KNOW WHAT I’M TALKING ABOUT! CAN’T YOU JUST AGREE WITH ME ALREADY INSTEAD OF BEING A DICK?!?!”

NicolaLuna - epic slut
NicolaLuna - epic slut
4 years ago

Roosh quotes are the worst. He’s just so shit 🙁

NickNameNick
NickNameNick
4 years ago

@Weirdwoodtreehugger:

Also, from my limited understanding of the phenomenon, it’s got nothing to do with feminism. The cost of living is high and there are limited opportunities. Because Japan isn’t terribly feminist, men are still expected to be the main breadwinner and women are expected to quit their jobs when they get married. This makes marriage and babies unappealing to men because it puts a huge amount of financial pressure on them and it’s unappealing to women who want to do something other than be a housewife. The herbivore thing is an argument for more feminism, not less. In fact, the whole thing tells me that feminism is absolutely essential for a modern technologically advanced economy to thrive.

Even if a limited understanding, that is all very cogent.

There’s also the fact that the highly corporatized landscape of Japan pushes people to prefer developing a career over having a family. I still remember watching videos with men sleeping at their job, just to fulfill demands put upon them. How can you expect any man to go and start a family, when they have to work so obsessively and often to barely get by?

I’d argue that, if those in Japan really want to increase the birth rate, they need to start giving benefits to men and women who decide to start families. Maybe pay them more while giving them less work hours, perhaps set up programs for new mothers so they can still pursue a career outside of the household, and maybe even guarantee those who have children are given a substantial retirement plan.

weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo

Think about it a minute. We’re bigger and stronger than you. If we really were savages, we would be doing whatever we wanted to you, especially if that truly was approved by our culture. The reason you don’t have to pepper spray someone every day is that the vast majority of us are actually decent, civilized people. There are a few exceptions; they end up going to prison, and rightly so, where they’re despised even by the other criminals.

Definitely ignorant. This has got to be the most clear example of manosphersplaining in this whole post. It’s not feminists who say men are savages who can’t help but rape. It’s rape culture that says that. When women are told we were asking for it for getting drunk, going somewhere alone with a man, wearing a short skirt etc. that’s rape culture.

Feminists are the ones saying that men are not savages. They are perfectly capable of not raping someone just because they are horny. Feminists are the ones saying rape is a choice that rapists make, not an inevitable consequence of men’s boners.

If only manurespherians would actually listen to what we say about rape culture instead of preemptively deciding we’re calling all men rapists and going “lalalala, can’t hear you!” when we correct their wrong assumptions.

Moocow
4 years ago

And the award, for the ‘most privileged statement of the day’, goes tooooooooooooo:

There are a few exceptions; they end up going to prison, and rightly so, where they’re despised even by the other criminals.

NicolaLuna - epic slut
NicolaLuna - epic slut
4 years ago

And the award, for the ‘most privileged statement of the day’, goes tooooooooooooo:

There are a few exceptions; they end up going to prison, and rightly so, where they’re despised even by the other criminals

OMG yes, this. I’m waiting on the police to get evidence to present to the CPS (crown prosecution service) to see if there’s a reasonable chance of conviction for what happened to me 3 months ago. If they decide there’s not enough evidence, he’ll walk free. I looked at the UK stats and out of 16k rapes reported to the police, 2k actually get to court and of those, 1k are convicted. So this asshole has a 1/16 chance of conviction. Fuck those stats.

weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo

NicolaLuna,

That’s terrible. I’m so sorry.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

I was about to write something about the whole women and children first thing but then Paradoxy beat me to it with that link.

But to clarify it’s a bit of a myth, like pregnant ladies being allowed to wee in policemens’ helmets (I wonder if any MRA has ever brought that up)

The traditional rule on abandoning ship was every man for himself. However normally discipline was maintained and everyone managed to get into a lifeboat. That’s because generally there were enough to go around, or at least lifebelts or other similar aids.

However in 1852 a ship called HMS Birkenhead foundered in shark infested seas. Due to unusual circumstances the ship was carrying an additional number of women and children (families of the crew). The men opted to give their families first dibs on the lifeboats. To this day in the UK women and children first is still called “Birkenhead Drill”.

The issue didn’t really crop up again until the sinking of the Titanic. We all know the story. The largest ship of the time (not actually true) collided with a class based love triangle. But what isn’t commonly known is in the original designs the ship carried twice as many lifeboats.

However the design was changed for safety reasons. That might sound daft but there were very sound reasons for doing so. The original design called for the boats to be double davitted. That caused all sorts of safety concerns in itself. More accidents occurred from deploying such lifeboats than from drowning. So the design was changed. It’s a bit like how lifts no longer have escape hatches. More people were killed or injured using them than by being stuck in lifts.

The thinking at the time was thar lifeboats would only be used to ferry passengers to rescue vessels. And that modern ship design meant there’d be plenty of time for that even with a fatally damaged vessel. So the emphasis was on speed of launching and recovering the lifeboats rather than capacity, which was another factor in the design change.

It’s perhaps worth remembering that but for some unfortunate communications breakdowns that might well have been the position with the Titanic (there were at least 10 other vessels closer than the Carpathian)

But anyway, the point is, women and children first has never really been a thing.

ETA: drnicola – that’s awful although I wish I could say it’s unusual but it’s not. You have my sympathies for what they’re worth but if there’s anything practical I can do let me know

Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent
Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent
4 years ago

For a more tangential thing:

If you spend your 20s partying and “finding yourself” as you’ve been encouraged to do, don’t expect Mr. Big to be waiting around patiently to sweep you off your feet after you’ve aged and decided it’s time to settle down. Actually, many Mr. Bigs used to be those nerds you wouldn’t have given a second look to back in college.

Did anyone watch WordGirl on PBS Kids Go! when they were younger? Because I can’t help but think of one of it’s villains, coincidentally named Mr. Big.
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pictured here with his favorite stress ball

John Howard
John Howard
4 years ago

What Mary McCarthy actually said was every word Hellman writes is a lie, including “and” and “the.”

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
4 years ago

@Troubelle

when they were younger?

I was your age when that show debuted 😁

But yeah, WordGirl is really good

Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent
Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent
4 years ago

@Axe

Well, you were certainly younger then, weren’t you?

Still. It was the highlight of my afternoons.

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
4 years ago

First, @NicolaLuna, seconding wwth: I’m so sorry and I hope that you’re doing okay. Lots of hugs (if you want them) and best wishes <3

Thanks to everyone who addressed the women-never-working BS so well. I realise the following is only anecdata, but it's the reason these guys make me so angry when they spout the male breadwinner rubbish:

My siblings and I were raised by my mum, who worked as much as she could while taking care of us. We frequently had to get help from charities like the Salvation Army just so we could eat and have basic necessities. My biological father changed his name via deed poll to get out of paying child support (which the court set at a tiny fraction of his income); my stepfather left after years of unpredictable violence and aggression, not to mention affairs. Through all of that my mum was the main breadwinner and the only parent.

Pre-empting any assumptions that this has caused me to become a bitter, man-hating shrew: I have a great male partner (18 years we’ve been together now) and a teenage son whom I love more than anyone on this earth. Even one of my cats is a boy 🙂

Vucodlak
Vucodlak
4 years ago

“It was all on us to provide for you and the kids”

Huh. My grandmother went to work in a factory when she was 13 or 14. She was the oldest of 9 children, and dirt poor. As in, her house had a dirt floor poor. She finally went to college in her 40s, after my father graduated high school, and became a nurse. She worked into her 80s.

My other grandmother was also a nurse. In the Army. In Europe. In 1943. But then, she had such a cushy life before-hand, growing up on a farm. Personally, I always liked the story my Army-Colonel grandfather told me about he and his two sons (who also joined the Army) hiding in the house while my grandmother went outside to kill a very poisonous snake. Oh, and she eventually became a police officer, as well.

My mother, on the other hand, never worked in a factory or went to war. She was a psychiatric nurse who spent much of her career working on the forensic unit of a state hospital. That’s where some of those despicable criminals Mr. Albrecht talks about ended up. I have/had two aunts: one is a bus driver, the other was a nurse.

Prior to my grandparents’ generation, my family records are pretty spotty, not least because one branch of my family seems to have consisted of cutthroats and bandits. Including the women. There were no rich folks in my family’s past, and the women always worked.

So Mr. Albrecht can just stick his “men do all the work” nonsense right back up from whence he pulled it.

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
4 years ago

@Vucodlak,

Whoah, ok you win 😀
Seriously though, thanks for that. Your family sounds incredible. My maternal grandmother worked in a munitions factory during WWII (I have a photo of her welding) and raised 8 kids after her husband took off (bit of a tradition in my family, that).

I only met women who didn’t do paid work when I was older, and most of them were hardly ladies of leisure either. “Bon-bon woman” is just such a foreign concept to me.

BoinkBoinkBoinkBoinkBoinkBoink
BoinkBoinkBoinkBoinkBoinkBoink
4 years ago

“some men are so disgusted by snarky women that they literally turn themselves gay, “finding it to be better than nothing.”

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kupo
kupo
4 years ago

@Mish

Even one of my cats is a boy

That made me lol.

PeeVee the (Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Noice) Sarcastic
4 years ago

Wow, this asshole really hit all of the bullshit manospherian bullet points, didn’t he?

He needs to flunk himself for not knowing the core material. Rate My Professor score: .05

Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent
Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent
4 years ago

@Boink et al.

Excellent .gif.

StephToe
StephToe
4 years ago

I am genuinely confused why so many men like this spend so much time trying to convince women they would be happier if they abandoned their financial independence and returned to being home makers with a provider husband.

Yet not one of them appear to take that role up themselves. More than a little odd…

StephToe
StephToe
4 years ago

@NickNameNick

” Maybe pay them more while giving them less work hours, perhaps set up programs for new mothers so they can still pursue a career outside of the household, and maybe even guarantee those who have children are given a substantial retirement plan.”

I see where you are coming from but I think it should just be equal pay for equal work and equal support to citizens irrespective of their personal lifestyle choices.

I think Japan who could do with completing rethinking their approach to corporate work but without penalising those of use who, for whatever reason do not have children or are unmarried. I’d have a serious issue being told I was to be paid less than my colleague purely because they happened to have kids. Or that I would be expected to have more work hours purely because I don’t have children. The private lives of the childless still matter.

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
4 years ago

@kupo,

Shiro is neutered, though 😛
He seems ok with it:

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Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
4 years ago

I caught a Ditto today. 🙂

1am, my wife messaged me out of the blue.

Otter: CATS NEED AN ELONGATED FACE
Otter: NO FLAT FACES
Me: I will let them know, ok?
Otter: k thanx
Me: np!

This is a great marriage.

kupo
kupo
4 years ago

@Mish
Shiro-San wa kawaii desu ne! 😀

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
4 years ago

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AsAboveSoBelow
AsAboveSoBelow
4 years ago

OMG, how did I miss that excerpt from 30 Bangs? When I was in my mid-twenties, the nearly seven-foot-tall man I had been seeing (but not had sex with) forced himself on me as I dozed, used muscle to hold me down as I whimpered, and afterwards, I too sobbed for a good while. He cared about me as little as Doosh did about the woman he describes hurting.

My life is great now and I hope hers is, too. I hope she’s all right.

Viscaria
Viscaria
4 years ago

I’ve always considered “co-ed” to be one of the most demeaning terms you can use for a young woman, even ignoring how it’s been sexualized. Young men get to be students; young women share co-educational facilities with those real students. Both gross and anachronistic.

kupo
kupo
4 years ago

@AsAboveSoBelow
I’m so sorry. That’s awful. I’m glad things are going well for you now, though.

Rhuu
Rhuu
4 years ago

@NickNameNick and @StephToe

Gotta chime in and agree with StephToe, here. A rethink of what they expect their workers to do is more in line with what is needed, rather than penalising those who either can’t or choose not to have kids.

Otherwise it feels like the pressure is going to be on the women to just have babies, so the men can either get more time off or be paid more, and that is a frightening thought.

@NicolaLuna and @AsAboveSoBelow: I’m sorry to hear what you have gone through, please have some internet hugs (if wanted or appreciated).

AsAboveSoBelow
AsAboveSoBelow
4 years ago

@Mish: Wow, what a beautiful cat. Such unusual markings.

@IP: Kitties! Your conversation reminds me of The Toast’s “Two Monks” series.

@kupo: Thank you.

Headologist
Headologist
4 years ago

*shudder* @ Roosh. And the men he… inspires.

Related to both word salad migtoe and this guy re: plumbers, women working; the plumber my parents swear by is a woman. Given my parents are both incredibly sexist at times (and not ashamed of it) the fact they chose a woman plumber surprised me, and I used to chat to her as a teenager. She originally changed jobs to train as a plumber because it worked so well around her family; the flexible hours and also comparatively high pay given the area and other jobs on offer. She is also so very brilliant because she was made acutely aware early on that as a woman, and a mother, who would organise shifts around her children, she would not be taken seriously unless she forced people to do so by being the single best plumber around. So she became the single best plumber around, and has put nearly every other plumber in the area out of a job, whilst inspiring other young women she meets to go into plumbing.

@NickNameNick

Nope, nope, nope. People who can’t have children, or don’t want them, shouldn’t be forced to work more, earn less, or have lower quality of life post-work. No people should view children as a tool to a better life economically. IF a country must increase the birth rate, it should be done by increasing wages across the board, allowing better work-life balance for every worker, enforcing greater gender equality in work and home life, encouraging a societal shift from discussion of “productivity” as life goal, and allowing everyone the freedom to make the choices that suit them. Then those who want children can have them for the sake of raising a child and those without are not penalised. The only child-specific breaks should be universal subsidised childcare, and even that should be less of an issue in a society where all parents are allowed flexibility in work hours and proper wages allow a work week of fewer hours.

I mean, since we’re designing societies here :p

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
4 years ago

@kupo,

Arigato gozaimasu (from Shiro) 😀

@AsAboveSoBelow,

Jebus, I’m sorry that happened to you and so happy you’re doing well now. Thank you for complimenting my Shiro – he’s a Weegie, apparently; a Norwegian Forest cat, hence his markings. He was a rescue baby, same as my other two, so his Weegie-ness was just a bonus. Also I love the Toast so much.

@IP
…are you going to give context for that text exchange with Otter? Or did you just pop it in next to your gorgeous kitteh pics to mess with us?

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
4 years ago

@Mish

There’s no context other than what you see. :p

The cat pics are just there to show off some properly elongated cat faces.

Moocow
4 years ago

@NicolaLuna

http://www.court-records.net/animation/edgeworth-strained(a).gif

Have all the hugs (if you’d like), I hope you get the justice you deserve

@IP

YOUR KITTIES ARE SO ADORABLE ALWAYS OMG

sorry. I got excited 🙂

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
4 years ago

Also, can we talk about this whole imperative to increase birth rates? Cos that’s… fractally fucked up. Like, any talk of birth rates at all is mired in unbelievable levels of fuckery. And that’s without the bio social engineering aspects, which are just squick all around. It always sounds like 1 step away from giving medals to ‘propagators of our people’ or some such

AsAboveSoBelow
AsAboveSoBelow
4 years ago

@Mish: The pink toes with black nose are just too much. Are there black paw pads that don’t show in the picture?

LindsayIrene
4 years ago

Even if a woman in the olden days didn’t have to work outside the home, housework back then was hard. Remember the rhyme “Man may work from sun to sun, But woman’s work is never done?” I’ve read that it dates back to around the time of the American Revolution.

Oh, and let’s not forget how dangerous childbirth used to be.

LindsayIrene
4 years ago

And how about taking care of children in pre-modern times? Before disposable diapers and baby wipes? Before vaccines and modern medicines? In conditions that would be unacceptably dirty and unsafe by today’s standards.

The Adjunct
The Adjunct
4 years ago

@NicolaLuna and @AsAboveSoBelow

I take up space in solidarity with you.

Regarding women and working…

Work that women do will always be invisible to a certain subset of men. The work that women do will always be devalued to a certain subset of men. It’s almost as if the OP isn’t arguing in good faith…

Ooglyboggles
4 years ago

@NicolaLuna and @AsAboveSoBelow
Hugs and best of luck.

weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo

Also, can we talk about this whole imperative to increase birth rates?

There’s a whole lot of economic problems with having a population that’s disproportionately elderly. You have a huge segment of the population who can’t work and who are more likely to have health problems and not enough working adults to carry the load. Although, given the fact that globally, the human population is plenty large, I would favor wealthy countries with low birth rates allowing more immigration rather than trying to engineer baby making. But nationalism and xenophobia make a lot of people reluctant to that. From what I’ve Japan is really hostile to immigration and makes it very hard to get citizenship and it seems to be to their detriment because their aging population is an issue for them.

Ooglyboggles
4 years ago

@weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo
Yeah the multiple routes that Japan has to take in order to avoid the impending economic hit requires them to change alot of older ways of thinking.

Increase immigration? That requires the Japanese government to be less xenophobic and isolationist.

Increase birthrate? That requires the entire business culture to change, like lowering the work hours and increasing wages so people can have more time to themselves.

Of the two things they can do, I see the changing of business culture the more likely thing. It’s 2016 and 60 hour workweeks are still commonplace there, amongst the high suicide rates that come as a side effect of such over demanding practices. Currently there are talks in labor organizations over there that are criticizing how previous policies relied solely on self regulation.

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