With all the terrible things going on in the world today, it’s nice to be reminded that some things remain unchanged even in Trump’s brave new America.
The Men Going Their Own Way subreddit, I am happy to report, remains a small oasis of stability in a rapidly changing world. Reddit’s MGTOWs are the same creepy weirdos they’ve always been.
Today, for example, the regulars in the MGTOW subreddit are waxing indignant about a young woman who had the temerity to take a butt-selfie in her bathroom while carrying a baby in a baby sling. As bathroom butt-selfies go, it’s pretty tame; she’s wearing underwear, and it’s not even particularly scanty. And the baby clearly has no idea what’s going on.
But the MGTOWs manage to work themselves into a frenzy nonetheless. Not so much about her butt or even the baby but about her UNFORGIVABLE FAILURE TO PUT THE TOILET PAPER ROLL IN THE TOILET PAPER DISPENSER.
![skeletonized 12 points 7 hours ago This is an epidemic I have not yet been to a girl's place and found the spring loaded stick adorned with the roll. THEY EVEN DO IT WITH PAPER TOWEL DISPENSERS IN THE KITCHEN They wont but the roll onto a stick that gives you leverage to rip off a square. They subconsciously wont put the stick (penis) through the cardboard tube (vagina) I'm convinced this is Freudian. permalinkembedsaveparentreportgive goldreply [–]Tyler_Gatsby 11 points 11 hours ago I don't think women do that anymore- put toilet paper on the dispenser. They'll set it everywhere they can sit it except there. permalinkembedsaveparentreportgive goldreply [–]PipBoyTInkerer 15 points 11 hours ago BUT MEN SHOULD PUT THE TOILET SEAT DOWN, AMIRITE GRRLS?](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/tp22.png?ssl=1)
I dunno, dudes. It could be that the loose-toilet-paper-roll gals of the world know that if they put rolls in the dispenser, this will happen:
Or this:
Or possibly this:
I mean, it’s cute and all, but these little monsters can rapidly deplete even the most substantial hoard of toilet paper.
Back on Reddit, meanwhile, other MGTOW subreddit regulars are working themselves into a lather over the smudges on butt-selfie-gal’s mirror.
![rat-biker 4 points 5 hours ago She's taking the pic into a pretty dirty mirror. Notice smudges center right side. permalinkembedsaveparentreportgive goldreply [–]vanets 1 point 2 hours ago Chad and Tyrone's seed](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/smudge.png?ssl=1)
Chad and Tyrone, that is really very impolite. I expect more from you, Chad and Tyrone!
I actually wonder if it’s because in most cases the privileged group and marginalized group are fairly segregated from each other in day to day life but that’s not true when it comes to gender. There are LGBT communities, black neighborhoods, immigrant neighborhoods etc. So straight white people often can look at racism or homophobia with a safe remove. It doesn’t require as many behavioral changes to oppose them. You don’t have to watch yourself quite as much.
Men and women on the other hand, are around each other all the time. Even if there are no people of the opposite gender living at home with you, they’re almost certainly in your neighborhood, work, and social circle. Especially if you’re a man but even if you’re a woman, being anti-misogyny takes a lot of work day to day. So people want to sweep it under the rug so they don’t have to change.
I’m probably not expressing my thoughts too well because I just got up and am still fuzzy head, but it’s been a theory that’s been knocking around in my head for awhile.
@Belladonna
Wow. I certainly hope it’s changed. Complete BS to be denied even the chance to apply let alone the fact that the odds are stacked against women.
There’s a lot that pisses me off about the mainstream media (a year of false equivalencies between Clinton and Trump). This I’ve noticed too. Fortunately I have seen some coverage in very progressive places picking up on the various patterns (he attacks women; compliments and insults based on looks above anything else). I read some articles by Amanda Marcotte on Salon about post-election results, she thinks that sexism played a huge part and I agree. For too many people, the fact that Hillary Clinton was a woman was a big part of her “unfavorability”. She also bashed the media for sugercoating the alt-right, and focusing on so-called “economic anxiety”.
Late, I know, but:
Had a guy over at my place some time ago, who when I asked him to leave ’cause I didn’t feel like having sex with him anymore because of behaviour that only came out once we were alone, went to the bathroom, only to come out and tell me he had just peed in my sink.
I agree, total power/toddler stuff.
That’s horrible, Tahia. It sounds like you made exactly the right choice.
The number of interviews I’ve seen both pre- and post- election where the voter says “I just don’t think a woman should be president” is staggering. Men and women both. Sexism’s a huge problem, and so few places are talking about it. Sammy Bee, obvs. <3 Sammy Bee.
@Tahia, I once had a guy pee in the crisper drawer of my fridge. That was an experience.
My mother had terrible insomnia, and if there was any noise or movement in the house, she could not get back to sleep at all, so we couldn’t flush at night. I really try very hard to remember, but old habits die hard, even decades later. I apologize on behalf of all absent-minded non-flushers. I realize that’s too little, too late, but it’s not always power/ control or malice.
Thanks, EJ, I was mostly befuddled. But yes, sure was a good choice. 🙂
@Scildfreja, ew! On purpose?
That having been said, Tahia, Scildfreya , yeah. Those people need their sexing licenses suspended pending review.
@wwth
I think you’re definitely on to something here. It strongly seems like it may be related to what Freud termed the narcissism of small differences.
And also related to this concept, I think PoC and LGBT folk don’t have to deal with as many internal differences in attitude in the very people they’re fighting for. Black people have their Ben Carsons, but I’ve never heard a black person say the kinds of things I hear women say all the time (which may only be because I live in a really, really white place). But imagine hearing a black person say:
“I want my white person to be a WHITE PERSON.” (implying strong and domineering)
“I prefer a white boss.”
“I really like working with white people.” (implying that they actually prefer it)
I do foresee the LGBT community moving more in that direction. It’s already an uncomfortable alliance much of the time. They’re currently dealing with more clear-cut issues of basic rights (much like first- and second-wave feminism did). But already there are young gay men who just want to be seen as “normal” men who happen to be gay and really resent the more “feminized” gay men for “confirming the gay stereotype.” These are not people who are going to care about some types of gay men, let alone lesbian, bisexual, or trans issues that diverge from their own interests.
Conservatives have been othering feminists for nonfeminist women for years, after all. And of course women have been othering sluts and whores and single mothers and “old maids” throughout time. And liberals aren’t immune. I’m certainly no Sarah Palin fan, but it seems to me that the reception she receives from liberals (including feminists) is orders of magnitude nastier than it might be if she were a man.
Anyway, I guess I think that feminism may suffer more grievously from this narcissism of small differences than any other movement on the planet. But these are just my thoughts. If I’ve said anything that needs correcting, please be gentle!
@Moocow
I’ve read some of Amanda Marcotte’s recent articles, too. I haven’t always entirely agreed with her in the past, but lately I think she’s been spot on about this election and have really appreciated her for saying these things.
Hm. I just noticed that I called the LGBT community “they” instead of “we.” So that’s an interesting self-reflection moment. As a lesbian-leaning bisexual who’s nevertheless been married to a man for a long time, I often feel guilty for my het privilege. But it seems I have identification issues.
I don’t like to leave my house much, anyway, but in the LGBT community, I often feel like an outsider and a fake, at best, or a betrayer, at worst. And I’m not sure how much, if any, of that is due to anything external rather than just my internal perceptions of myself.
I also think that for bisexual cis women, bi privilege is totally a thing. Bisexual men don’t have it so good, though.
[sigh]
But who am I to nitpick, when I couldn’t remember the word for when the tea is loading?
@Belladonna:
The Berniebros proved that the left is not immune to misogyny, and I bet a lot of them read HuffPo.
@Belladonna
I grew up in a town with a large Asian community and a lot of the Asian people I knew growing up talked a lot about how they conformed to Asian stereotypes and my boyfriend’s black and has complained about other black people telling him that he wasn’t black enough, especially when growing up so I think internalized racism is just as real as internalized misogyny.
I think wwth is right that it’s easier to look at and talk about homophobia and racism when you don’t have to be critical of yourself.
I also think that a lot of the stereotypes of women are things that are associated with wealth (for example housewives) while the stereotypes of black people are associated with poverty (for example ghettos) so it’s harder to deny that black people don’t have unique problems
@Kootiepatra
Bernie bros are also really good at critiquing other candidates for their racism but are really bad at seeing how their candidate does racist things
@Belladonna
Relative to straight people? Questionable IMO. Relative to other queer/trans folks? Definitely.
Ain’t that the truth.
I know that feel. Most of my current marriage it hasn’t come up so much, although nowadays we’re back to seeming het to a casual glance.
@sparkalipoo
It was rather special of me to make assumptions that there is more internal conflict in the communities I know best as opposed to the ones I’m less intimately familiar with. I apologize.
I guess I’m still thinking that maybe PoC run into fewer issues with sentiment like, “we want men to dominate and think that is the natural order of things.” But they undoubtedly have different ones. Such as, whether it promotes the othering of Asians or not, I imagine there might be quite a few Asians who like “Asians are smarter and better at STEM.”
and @Kootiepatra
I think I’m seeing a possible proof here for
Also Bernie was, of course, not blatantly sexist like the Trump was racist, but Berniebros will froth at the mouth just as hard if you suggest they may have even a little bit of unexamined sexism underlying their “deeply flawed candidate” theory.
@Dali
Sorry I didn’t make it clear that that was totally what I meant. 🙂
Thanks to everyone for the discussion and food for thought.
@Belladonna
It’s not a big deal (at least not for me). I think it’s hard really compare racism and sexism objectively.
@ Belladonna
Honestly? It was boring as fuck. The few things that were useful were stuff that I knew already. Since they had combined 2 other MOS’s to get this one (74C and 74D I believe) they were still trying to figure out what to teach. So we got too little important stuff and too much useless stuff (We spent a whole week on different categories of Network Cable. Something that could have been taught in a day). I kept getting in trouble for dozing off, and then got into trouble when I showed I could fall asleep standing up. Good times.
@Tahia, @Scildfreja
Wow! It seems as though peeing in all the wrong places is kind of a thing for some guys.
I’m sorry that happened to you.
@Belladonna
“As a lesbian-leaning bisexual who’s nevertheless been married to a man for a long time, I often feel guilty for my het privilege.”
Bisexual het privilege? What have I just read? 😉
I mean, I’ve pretty much have mostly dated men, and the only “het privilege” I’ve gotten is that I can closet myself with a man, and then worry about getting outed. And perhaps, it is better than what some lesbians get, but it is still a FAR cry from “het privilege”. Or any kind of sexual-orientation related privilege.
“I also think that for bisexual cis women, bi privilege is totally a thing.”
Fun fact; bisexual women have higher rates of depression and suicide than BOTH lesbians and straight women due to the widespread biphobia in BOTH gay and straight communities. Your feelings of “feeling like a fraud” and their reasons? They’re really common in bi women; a result of internalized biphobia.
But, this is just to show how stupid “bi privilege” is, not to show “lesbian privilege” or some ridiculous shit. Heterosexuals are privileged, LGBT+ are not. No more Oppression Olympics between the letters.
@Spark
“I’ve never heard that exact argument. I have problems with feminists promoting “empowerment”; because often their using empowerment to mean making someone feel good and not actual empowerment and you could argue that the way that they are trying to promote empowerment is disempowering.
Yeah, that’s a separate but related argument, and one I agree with wholeheartedly.
But… Here’s one of the better “empowerment is a fraud” arguments that plucked from inside of a larger piece;
” ‘Empowerment’ wasn’t always so trivialized, or so corporate, or even so clamorously attached to women. Four decades ago, the word had much more in common with Latin American liberation theology than it did with “Lean In”. In 1968, the Brazilian academic Paulo Freire coined the word “conscientization”; empowerment’s precursor, as the process by which an oppressed person perceives the structural conditions of his oppression and is subsequently able to take action against his oppressors.
Eight years later, the educator Barbara Bryant Solomon, writing about American black communities, gave this notion a new name, “empowerment.” It was meant as an ethos for social workers in marginalized communities, to discourage paternalism and encourage their clients to solve problems in their own ways. Then in 1981, Julian Rappaport, a psychologist, broadened the concept into a political theory of power that viewed personal competency as fundamentally limitless; it placed faith in the individual and laid at her feet a corresponding amount of responsibility too.
Sneakily, empowerment had turned into a theory that applied to the needy while describing a process more realistically applicable to the rich. The word was built on a misaligned foundation; no amount of awareness can change the fact that it’s the already-powerful who tend to experience empowerment at any meaningful rate. Today “empowerment” invokes power while signifying the lack of it. It functions like an explorer staking a claim on new territory with a white flag.” –How Empowerment Became Something for Women to Buy.
It’s a fair argument. Obviously the privileged have more opportunities- more empowerment. That’s the very nature of how privilege works. The danger lies with people who take this too far; the people who act like the oppressed have no power, or no avenues to gaining power for, and by, themselves. Luckily the writer here didn’t take it so far, but some others do.
@Kate “I agree. Society is shot through with displays of power and control — metaphorical sink pissing. Men do it a lot. But women do it too. Ditto children.”
Yeah, this is why Passive-Aggressive Personality Disorder was removed from the books. It was too common. ;p
I would say that all groups are equally passive aggressive in general, but that the particular relationship dynamic that I’m described is most common with men. It’s pretty well known that men tend to be more sensitive to appearing “whipped” than woman are.
“The difference between abusers and nonabusers is often one of degree”
Very true.
I tend to define an abuser by “engages in a pattern of behavior that is designed to be hurtful or severely distressful over time”. So yeah, your friend’s ex was definitely abusive, I wasn’t questioning that. 🙂 Just, these issues with power and control go beyond abuse and abusers as well.
“And yeah, nobody wants to feel subservient — except for those who choose to outsource their power in limited ways.”
Again, subservient is being powerless, not being willingly submissive. Subservience is more like what a true slavery relationship would feel like, rather than say what a sub/dom relationship would feel like.
“As for allegations that arena’t believed, let’s just say that I’d already heard enough about my friend’s boyfriend to believe every word when she told me he pissed in the sink. It was of a piece with his I’m too cool for middle-class niceties schtick.”
You’re a good friend, and your friend is very lucky to have you. 🙂 Many abuse victims aren’t so lucky. I really wish that wasn’t so.
@Alan
Isn’t that something. Language can really shine a lot into who we are, eh?
*@Kat
Sorry Kat. Didn’t realize your name was switched by spellcheck.
@mrex
I can’t thank you enough for this. Other than the article you linked, I’ve rarely seen much in the way of discussion about purely bi issues. Or even what bi identity really means to various bi people. And maybe I just haven’t been paying enough attention. But it means a lot to me that I’m not alone in those feelings.
Sometimes I’ve actually felt resentful about the LGBT initialism because I’ve felt like they were just co-opting my sexual identity for convenience, but no one ever really talked or actually cared about it. No one actually even asked me if I wanted to be included in this letter soup (although mostly, I do).
Then I felt like I was being selfish, because I don’t have it so bad. However, although it may be more often negative than positive, trans people get more attention than bi people. And mostly, let’s face it, LGBTIQ+ really feels mostly about the LGs. The rest of us are convenient allies. It’s okay for now. For now, our goals mostly align. But I still feel really, really invisible in those LGBTIQ letters. I sort of think of them as LG(b)tiq. (Feeling mostly invisible is surely much better than what trans folk have to go through, but it’s not completely fun.)
I don’t know how it works for anyone else, but “bi” identity is not totally easy for me. I’m not totally comfortable with the term “bisexual.” It’s not some totally balanced thing where I have a completely equal chance of loving someone of either gender (although I want it to be, in a purely philosophical kind of way).
@Bella
Yeah, that happens. Plenty of people are open to multiple genders but have a primary/predominant attraction. I mean, I call myself ‘heteroflexible/mostly straight’. Honestly, there’s way more orientations than words to describe em. If ‘bi’ doesn’t quite work for you, I hope you find/come up with a word that does 🙂
@Belladonna
As someone who’s both B and T, I feel your pain. You’re not wrong, it’s really more like the [white] GLbt movement. Because, frankly, white people gotta make it all about them, and are total shit at intersectionality. White queers aren’t any less racist than white people in general, gay men are often really fucking misogynistic, etc. Bisexuals are often considered to be ‘letting down the side’ in one sense or another, and transphobia’s rampant most everywhere.
To be sure there’s a spectrum there, but because of our cultural habit of pigeonholing people everyone who’s not at one end or the other winds up lumped into ‘bisexual’.
And that’s a whole other can of worms, the relationship between sexual desire and romantic inclination.
@Belladonna
“I can’t thank you enough for this. Other than the article you linked, I’ve rarely seen much in the way of discussion about purely bi issues.”
You are very welcome.
Bi issues are rarely discussed in their own right. Society has a hard time accepting grey areas; we like things either black or white. Lesbians and gays assume that bisexual women are confused straights, and straights assume that bisexual women are greedy/confused lesbians.
“But it means a lot to me that I’m not alone in those feelings.”
You are absolutely not alone in these feelings. In fact, you have more company than you know. 🙂
“Sometimes I’ve actually felt resentful about the LGBT initialism because I’ve felt like they were just co-opting my sexual identity for convenience, but no one ever really talked or actually cared about it.”
Yup, yup.
I have no problem being aligned with LGT. But the LGBT+ communtity really needs to get it’s shit together when it comes to biphobia and transphobia before becomes an actual community.
“Then I felt like I was being selfish, because I don’t have it so bad.”
Don’t have it so bad, according to who? Gays? Lesbians? Straights?
Don’t listen to them. Bisexuality is it’s own unique sexual orientation, with it’s own unique experiences. None of them have any fucking clue what it is, or is not, like.
I’ve heard the story that bisexuals have it easy because we have an “out” for too long. They’re full of shit. Our “out” is living in the closet. If it was “easy”, we wouldn’t be miserable.
” I don’t know how it works for anyone else, but “bi” identity is not totally easy for me. I’m not totally comfortable with the term “bisexual.” It’s not some totally balanced thing where I have a completely equal chance of loving someone of either gender (although I want it to be, in a purely philosophical kind of way)”
I’m not equally attracted to men and women either. I don’t think anyone really is. 🙂 It actually seems to go in phases, which gender I’m more attracted to. I’m not really sure why.