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Will the sentient robots of the future ally with men or women, MGTOW wonders

Beta male cuck defends woman from robot justice
Beta male cuck defends woman from righteous robot justice

Leave it to the deep thinkers of the Men Going Their Own Way community to ask the tough questions that no one else dares to ask.

For example: In the future, when men are reduced to 5 percent of the population and forced to flee to Mars or Venus, will the sentient robots ally themselves with men or with women?

In the MGTOW subreddit, an aspiring futurist calling himself FalloutFan2 laments what he sees as the inevitable rise of a gynocentric dystopia in which men are more or less bred out of existence, except for a tiny minority that the women keep around for sperm and giggles.

“It’s sad how everything in modern society is already gearing towards a female-only future,” FalloutFan2 notes wistfully.

I think there will come a point where all men rebel against the system and form their own colony on Mars or Venus or whatever, where we’ll bring some female sex-bots for entertainment.

It’s rare that I find myself agreeing with anything I read on the MGTOW subreddit, but if you guys want to go start a MGTOW colony on Venus I will not only support you but help you pack.

Of course the women will just keep using their dildos because they are emotionless beings who care little for actual interaction, whether it be sentient robot or human.

I have to admit that “women are emotionless automatons who prefer dildos to robots because they don’t like talking to people” is a stereotype I have not encountered before.

Do you think the sentient robots will ally themselves with mankind and not womankind?

TRULY THE QUESTION OF OUR AGE

I think that due to their advanced intelligence they will not see a possible future where they could be on equal footing with women (due to the female’s natural inclination to boss everyone around), so they’ll settle for a society where they are equal to men.

I’m pretty sure sentient robot ladies would kick you guys to the curb as quickly as actual human females. Especially since two sentences ago the only sentient robots you were interested in were of the sexy sex slave variety.

Of course, if we do all end up on Mars, women will just eventually send nukes to destroy the colony regardless, out of bitter spite (if they figure out how to press the correct buttons that is, but typically some beta male nuclear scientist would have left blatant instructions beforehand that even a toddler would understand).

Ha ha ladies can’t even nuclear holocaust men right!

Women just can’t handle the fact that men just want to be happy.

Well that’s a bit of an ironic statement to find on the MGTOW subreddit, to put it mildly. I can’t think of a group of men less interested in being happy, or more inclined to wallow in their own bitterness, than MGTOWs.

They can’t comprehend that men are satisfied with an existence of philosophical stoicism, and not artificially superimposing different contrived existentialisms on reality. Either no one but them can be allowed to be happy, or no one period.

Unfortunately, due to this reason I don’t see any possible way it could work out. Women will just kill themselves off once all the men are gone anyway, cuz there’ll be no one to listen to their nagging bullshit.

Better get yourself an agent quick, FalloutFan2, because this sounds like the greatest science fiction novel never written!

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Croquembouche of patriarchy
Croquembouche of patriarchy
3 years ago

@wwth,

I love how she claimed David acted like Susan was being worse than Hitler and then quoted what he actually said, which was nothing of the sort.

If JB actually applied the same standards to herself and Susan that she expects of other women, she would treat David’s temporary ban on Susan as a benign injunction by an authoritative adult on a misbehaving toddler to go to bed and stop annoying the grownups.

JB is the one who classifies women as unruly children in need of a firm hand. Her questioning an adult male’s decision is not consistent with her professed beliefs.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
3 years ago

@kupo
Hairt thought I was a girl even though my name is Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger. I couldn’t be more male coded if I replaced my profile pic with a bloodstained, Spartan helmet and a pair of bewbs. Cat or no cat, the stereotype is entrenched

Some people even choose to donate blood so it can’t be that terrible

Ha!

Also, none of her responses to us are actual responses to what was said. As was her MO over here, she says she understands and then deflects to 5 other points of bullshit. It’s like a hydra of willful ignorance

weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo

Axe, your avatar is a peace sign though. Everyone knows real men love war and violence! May I suggest changing your avatar to a picture of an AR-15? That Spartan helmet would work too. You might even be able to get away with an NFL team logo. Anything else makes you a girl.

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
3 years ago

Hah, wow. Thanks for linking that WWTH – that was from before I was posting.

Really makes JB’s personality clear, that. “You guys better give me what I want or I’m gonna hurt her, and it’ll be your fault.” Couldn’t be a more clear demonstration of her immorality than that; it’s basically the prototypical abuser tactic. “Look at what you made me do.” Nice little reminder.

Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
3 years ago

@Sigh
I’m pretty sure I would go into troll overdrive if I were to read more disingenuous reconstruction of what happened to the point where you can’t tell the difference between me and an /a/non. But oh well I might as well see what she thought of me.

“she”

And, since she had asked for my thoughts, I shared those thoughts, knowing that other people reading that article would get other things from it, and the author herself might not even see it the way I saw it. And that’s okay — but apparently not for Ooglyboggles. So I see this as rather dishonest: You don’t ask an open-ended question if there’s something specific you’re looking for, and then get mad that the other person didn’t read your mind and totally deliver on your unspoken expectations.

To be generous, I’ll say that if Ooglyboggles wants to clearly lay out the assignment with her actual expectations, I’ll try to tackle it when I can. I’ve already figured out that she doesn’t want to hear about any other stuff I might learn from the article that I can apply to my personal life. Acting like I’m at the center of the world and relating everything to me personally is one of my many shortcomings, and Ooglyboggles and others here are not the only one’s who’ve picked up on it. There’s also a man on JudgyBitch’s blog who’s ridiculed me for spilling out so much of my personal stuff on the Internet.

http://67.media.tumblr.com/ce0ed319cc1a8884de228c5995f62039/tumblr_inline_nt5uy7SYig1sqe1gf_500.jpg

I already explained twice about it. At length. Do I have to channel my inner human studies professor and give her an assignment on the lack of representation and marginalization of Asian Americans? Was I not specific enough on why I felt that her saying that not restricting the thinking of her kids was comparable to that professor not wanting her student to deal with discrimination was not good?

Ugh whatever, I don’t care whatever gender one thinks of me. At this point I’ve been assumed to be a boy, girl, both, neither and everything in between no matter what username/avi I use.

Paradoxical Intention - Resident Cheeseburger Slut

I think it’s adorable that they got their underpants in such a twist about how we “unfairly banned” Susan, yet none of them are over here trying to have a discussion with us about it. Nah, best to sit on JB’s site and whine about it!

Listen JB lurkers: Susan said she wanted to have a discussion. She was being extremely disingenuous and proved time and time again that that wasn’t the case at all. She was here to repeat her point until we gave in. We repeated ourselves again and again and AGAIN to her, and she wouldn’t listen. She took our words hilariously out of context, she made sweeping blanket statements about the commenters here that were insulting lies at best, and fucking disgusting lies at worst, and she consistently proved she didn’t give a shit about “the other side”, despite her “polite” talk and how “gracious” she seemed.

You can be “polite” and “articulate” and still come off as a raging asshole,just like Susan. Our problem wasn’t with her way of talking, it was with she was fucking saying.

As for her posts, we put up with her for a damn long time. We tried talking to her. We tried having a discussion, which she said she wanted, and eventually, we realized that talking to a brick wall would be more beneficial.

So, we don’t need to talk to her anymore. She’s stuck on repeat and refuses to listen. We’ve heard her points, we’re not fucking interested.

You’re more than welcome to try though. Or you can sit over on JB’s blog and whine about it.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
3 years ago

@WWTH

Axe, your avatar is a peace sign though

I actually only went with the peace sign, cos I like symmetry and the colors turquoise and black. I’ve been meaning to change it for a while, but haven’t found anything better. It’s grown on me now *shrugs*

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
3 years ago

@Cat Mara,

This is a lovely tune from Amanda & Jack Palmer’s album:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWa2w9pYuWQ

Folksy but creepy too, with bonus Gaiman children 🙂
I know what you mean re non-vocal music when working. I’ve been using the Liquid Mind stuff while marking assignments; I think it was Policy of Madness mentioned it a while back. Great stuff for staying calm.

@Valentine,
The fanfic is boring rather than horrible, huh? I guess that makes sense. We thank you for your sacrifice!

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
3 years ago

@ Weird (insert interesting stuff here) Eddie,
Well I did not know that about ‘squeeeee’. I’ve only ever seen it used as a general kind of excited noise. Wow.

@ everyone who dealt with Susan,
Jebus. Glad I followed that thread at a distance. But, I guess ya’ll are famous now, right? :O

PeeVee the (Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Noice) Sarcastic
3 years ago

I am cracking up at That_Susan’s pearl-clutching and scandalized outrage.

How very dare we?

Handsome "Punkle Stan" Jack

I’m debating on clicking that JB link but, eh.

Eh.

I’m curious but I also don’t care. Someone quote funny shit from it for my amusement, if you will.

Xaxas
Xaxas
3 years ago

Due to the Zerother Law of Robotics the robots support the women unless literal test tube babies exist in their ideal future because having a womb+artifical insemination (whether it’s obtained willingly is irrelevant) gives humanity a greater chance of survival. Cloning leads to low genetic diveristy–>Genetic diversity helps further humanity survive potential future threats–> Robots obey the women.

Due to the First Law of Robotics robots cannot harm any human. If they attemtp harm a woman or any other human they can be logic bombed into a state of nonfunctionality.

The First and Zeroth laws bypass the second which states that all robots must obey humans.

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
3 years ago

@Jack,

yyyyyou asked for it!

Here’s the entirety of JB’s “article”

There really isn’t much more to say here. That Susan, a regular commentator here at JB, has subjected the mammoth crowd to abuse that leaves even me speechless. Beyond the pale. She is literally Hitler. According to Futrelle:

“I’m giving Susan a temporary ban because, well, obviously a lot of people here are fed up with her nonsense, and for good reason.

“Let me know if you all think this should be a permanent ban.”

Yes, fathead, it should be permanent. In fact, I would alert the UN. This is cyberviolence of the most horrific kind.


Note: JB didn’t actually link to the article or comment thread. Not that that’s surprising, obviously.

There’s a lot here, but I’ll c/p most of one of Susan’s moderated comments for here, which is – well. You can read it for yourself. I’ll just copy some of it.

I do believe there is a small segment of men that harasses and behaves disrespectfully to women, but the prevalent reason for this behavior is NOT that they haven’t been taught not to harass and need a sensitivity course, but that they’re angry over their extremely low status and sense of complete powerlessness in their lives (before anyone thinks that I’m saying this excuses their unacceptable behavior, I do address that further down).

followed up by

I don’t want to completely hurt Donald Trump’s feelings by leaving him and Bill Clinton totally out of the conversation, so I’ll add as an aside that there seem to be a few extremely powerful and self-absorbed men who become bored with all the consensual sex they’re able to get so easily, and then start getting their thrills by pushing the limits and seeing just how far they can cross the lines of decency without suffering any consequences (like Donald feeling like he could shoot someone and not lose a single voter).

as for the part where she condemns their behaviour, that is:

But talking about those guys isn’t all that interesting to me, because I think most of us deal a whole lot more with the harassers who are a lot LESS privileged than the average woman, who in some cases are very angry about their total inability to earn a decent income, or even hold down a steady job, and much as we women care about what’s on the inside, too, most of us really don’t look twice at a man out on the streets without a penny to his name, even if he IS nice and respectful.

Which – uh, no, Susan, that’s not the harassers we’re talking about. Also, I and my friends do look twice at poor people who are nice and respectful. Hell, many of us are poor. Why would you think we would turn our nose up at the poor?

There’s a lot for you to think about there, Susan; take your time.

Then she follows it up with:

And no, I’m not saying that women’s lack of interest is any kind of excuse for a man to channel his anger over being rejected into, say, following some woman around and scaring her to death just so that he, at that moment, can feel more powerful than he normally does. It’s inexcusable.

to which i will channel my inner Paradoxy, bare my teeth and say that we’re less concerned about the scaring to death and more concerned about the raping and killing to death. Stopping the scaring would be nice, too, but there are priorities.

So then she follows up, almost inexplicably, with this:

But in anyplace where this kind of behavior is rampant, I don’t see it as a sign that men are getting too big for their britches and need to be knocked down a few pegs. I actually see it as a sign that we need to pour more resources into men, and especially into boys and young men. I don’t think most of them need to be taught about consent, because most of them know damn well if their behavior is scaring a girl or woman to death

You’re right, actually – we do. When feminists say we need to teach men not to rape, and need to teach boys about what is and isn’t acceptable, this is what we mean. When we talk about toxic masculinity, this is what we mean. We need to put resources into teaching boys and men that they should not derive their self esteem from enforcing their superiority over others.

You’re right that they don’t need to be taught about consent. They know what it is. They just don’t give a shit. That’s the problem.

I can’t even with that paragraph.

At this point she goes into anecdote territory, but she does say that she thinks we need to teach boys at a young age that they’re worthy, that they aren’t worthless, that they’re loved. I agree. Frankly, girls need that too. Boys need to be taught that their worth doesn’t come from being better than other people, or from the things they have or control, or their money or their social status – it comes from who they are.

That’s what feminists talk about when they talk about combating toxic masculinity, Susan. You’re complaining about patriarchy.

Ugh. I will have to ask someone else to burrow into that mire, that’s as far as I wanna go right now. Frustrating – she’s right about a number of things, but so wrong in others. And of course the peanut gallery is gabbling on in the background there too.

Dunno how you do it, David.

weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo

It’s lovely classism to imply that low socioeconomic status causes men to sexually harass. And weird to assume that those men only harass upper class women. As if poor women are never subjected to street harassment and as if it’s unusual for wealthy to harass.

Handsome "Punkle Stan" Jack

There really isn’t much more to say here. That Susan, a regular commentator here at JB, has subjected the mammoth crowd to abuse that leaves even me speechless. Beyond the pale. She is literally Hitler.

Yes, fathead, it should be permanent. In fact, I would alert the UN. This is cyberviolence of the most horrific kind.

I’m confused. So JB is comparing Susan to Hitler, then JB quotes David, and then she advocates fro Susan’s ban to be permanent because what she did was “cyberviolence”?

I mean, I’m guessing JB meant we’re treating Susan LIKE Hitler and that the “cyberviolence” is what we did to them?

Right?

I mean, Susan came HERE and started spitting bullshit. We didn’t go to their website or to JB’s and started harassing them; if any of us did the same as Susan did on JB’s site, then we’d be harassing people. So, like, pff.

http://67.media.tumblr.com/342823c2c6737b1395ec784253b58666/tumblr_obintk1nx11u6w1edo1_400.gif

Bina
3 years ago

OMG, I just noticed something totally random: The dude in the pic at the top is wearing red hot-pants! And go-go boots! MISANDRY!!!

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

You’re right that they don’t need to be taught about consent. They know what it is.

I don’t think they do. If they did, they wouldn’t have a million questions about how they can really know when a woman consents whenever yes means yes laws come up. I think inexperienced people have a hard time understanding how to approach consent and need some guidance in how to do it. I remember as a teenager being confused about how to talk about this stuff without killing the mood, for example.

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
3 years ago

@WWTH,

It’s lovely classism to imply that low socioeconomic status causes men to sexually harass. And weird to assume that those men only harass upper class women. As if poor women are never subjected to street harassment and as if it’s unusual for wealthy to harass.

It feels like Susan’s never experienced sexism or harassment, ’cause she keeps falling back on the Hollywood tropes. Rapists are men hiding in bushes that leap on innocent does, harassers are sweaty construction men cat-calling the classy woman in the pencil skirt.

That’s really why I couldn’t even. Has she ever spoken to another woman outside of her sheltered little circle before? Jeebs.

@Jack, I’m pretty sure JB was in super-sarcasm mode. Susan’s, like, soooooo Hitler, you guys, you better cyber-ban her super fast before she, like, triggers you or something.

gag me with a spoon

EDIT – fair enough, kupo!

Bina
3 years ago

PS: Did I miss something here?

eli
eli
3 years ago

That_Susan from the most recent Cassie Jaye thread ran back to JudgyBitch’s site from whence she came and, seemingly, gave Ms. Hardie all of her posts that were stuck in moderation after David put her there.

That thread went something like 15 pages with Susan’s gish galloping.

Croquembouche of patriarchy
Croquembouche of patriarchy
3 years ago

I feel dumb for not spotting it before: That_Susan is also a SanctiMommy. JB had better be careful giving her guest blogger status on her site, because when it comes to Best Mom in the Whole World,
http://ct.weirdnutdaily.com/ol/wn/sw/i60/2/10/15/wnd_f8a16e5ab55a0f0c8bb026cc502f1d45.jpg
(Sorry about the image source name)

Handsome "Punkle Stan" Jack

@Jack, I’m pretty sure JB was in super-sarcasm mode. Susan’s, like, soooooo Hitler, you guys, you better cyber-ban her super fast before she, like, triggers you or something.

What, did Susan not troll hard enough or something? I really doubt JB has a higher tolerance for commenters that annoy her readers.

TreePerson
TreePerson
3 years ago

@Kupo Seriously the implied consent is a terribly flawed concept,
I have seen at least one guy on a kink site claim to know just by looking into someones eyes (he got arrested after a task force was assembled to investigate him).

Simon Hales
3 years ago

@Weird, @ Scildfreja, @ Virgin Mary

I highly recommend a short story “Dial F For Frankenstein” by Arthur C. Clarke regarding what happens when a circuit containing a “critical mass” of switches is created 🙂

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
3 years ago

What, did Susan not troll hard enough or something? I really doubt JB has a higher tolerance for commenters that annoy her readers.

My understanding is that Susan doesn’t really troll there. Given all the MRA bullshit coming out Susan’s keyboard, they probably fit in really well over there.

EJ (The Orphic Lizard)

@Axe:

Ironically, the symbol of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, which you use as an avatar, is very similar to this one:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/3rd_Panzer_Division_logo_2.svg/239px-3rd_Panzer_Division_logo_2.svg.png

This is the insignia of 3. Panzer Division from 1941-1945. (It must be pointed out that they never used nuclear weapons, only tanks.)

There are only so many cool-looking geometric symbols in the world, so there’s always going to be coincidences like that.

(((Nop))) Social Justice Bulldozer
(((Nop))) Social Justice Bulldozer
3 years ago

@WWTH:

This is also the same group that fetishizes East Asian women because they think they’re properly subservient to men.

An assumption I find both annoying & hilarious, having had a number of friendships & relationships with East Asian women. TL;DR: That assumption is very much mistaken.

Nick G
Nick G
3 years ago

Worth reading Charles Stross’s Saturn’s Children – partly set in a floating city in the Venusian atmosphere. The central character is a sex-bot, so made as to be irresistably attracted to men, but unfortunately constructed the very year Homo sapiens became extinct.

Nick G
Nick G
3 years ago

It’s similar to the way that neo-Nazis have found interpretations of Lord of the Rings that make it support their views, despite it being written by a hardcore anti-Nazi and being about a multi-ethnic band of heroes seeking to put a mixed-ethnicity person on the throne. – EJ

It’s true that Tolkien was anti-Nazi, but there’s a load of pretty overt racism in LOTR! Both elves and “men” (i.e. humans, but “men” is Tolkien’s invariable term when contrasting humans and elves) are defined in terms of how “high” their race is, Aragorn is the rightful king precisely because of his ancestry among both the intrinsically superior Numenorean humans, and the Noldor (“High Elves”). Black men (who only appear as bit-part soldiers of Sauron) are described as “like half-trolls, with red tongues and white eyes” (I quote from memory), orcs are frequently “swarthy” andor “slant-eyed”, etc. ad nauseam. Tolkien was a high Tory reactionary – like Churchill, who was also sincerely anti-Nazi.

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
3 years ago

I have seen at least one guy on a kink site claim to know just by looking into someones eyes (he got arrested after a task force was assembled to investigate him).

My sister’s ex-husband told me once that it was “love at first sight” when he first saw my sister. I tried to explain to him that real love isn’t spontaneous like that, that’s just a desire to possess something. He didn’t hear me – the guy’s got conversation filters like you wouldn’t believe – and to this day believes that destiny will bring my sister and him back together.

It’s turbo creepy.

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
3 years ago

Nah, @Jack, it was an after-action report on Susan’s foray to WHTM. JB’s teasing us for being too sensitive and banning Susan. She’s using sarcasm to say that Susan’s comments were utterly mild and not ban-worthy, and we’re a bunch of precious children for crying about it.

Skiriki
Skiriki
3 years ago

@Cat Mara

I think you should finish that short story, it shows great potential and I am intrigued to see where it goes.

Skiriki
Skiriki
3 years ago
LindsayIrene
3 years ago

there seem to be a few extremely powerful and self-absorbed men who become bored with all the consensual sex they’re able to get so easily, and then start getting their thrills by pushing the limits and seeing just how far they can cross the lines of decency

So, in Susan’s world, it’s the fault of women that Trump is a gropey, slobbery pig.
comment image

Nick G
Nick G
3 years ago

A couple of thoughts on the sentient robots / “hard take-off” discussion:
1) I take issue with the claims that we’ve no idea how to define consciousness or intelligence. Intelligence is the ability to understand situations and respond to them in ways that are likely to achieve one’s goals. Consciousness is a process of maintaining a continuously updated model of one’s own perceptual, ratiocinative and motivational states – when a person is not doing this, they are unconscious.
2) We have had artificial intelligences with superhuman abilities (that is, abilities superior to any individual human) ever since our ancestors invented language (at least). The first ones were presumably small bands of people who made use of the knowledge held by elders, that collected by individuals who went on journeys to distant places, and that embodied in material and cultural artefacts. More sophisticated examples include larger linguistic-cultural communities, armies, bureaucracies, corporations, universities, disciplinary communities… To give an example of the latter, no one person understands the whole of modern mathematics, but the global community of mathematicians does. The information-processing capacity of individual human brains has not increased in the last 100,000 years – indeed, since brains have got smaller, it may have diminished – but our collective intelligence is massively greater, and even as individuals, we have access to cognitive prostheses that multiply our abilities enormously (on this last point, see Andy Clark’s Supersizing the Mind). All this is generally missed because of the hyper-individualist bias of capitalist ideology. How increasingly sophisticated electronic computers (and computer networks) will interact with the existing network of bio-cultural computers (people) is hard to predict, but it’s unlikely they will be constructed, or emerge, as self-contained, self-motivated entities outside existing human institutions and societies. There’s more to fear from the vast amounts of personal data and processing power already in the possession of governments and corporations than from uppity sexbots.

EJ (The Orphic Lizard)

@Skiriki:
That’s badass awesome. Thanks for linking it. The arXiv paper is very interesting too.

@NickG:
Tolkien being hella racist and pretty misogynist was definitely a thing, even if he was admirably opposed to anti-semitism. I didn’t think about the whole “high”-raceness, though. That’s some deeply weird medieval stuff, even from a medievalist of his calibre. Thanks for pointing that out.

Paradoxical Intention - Resident Cheeseburger Slut

Scildfreja Unnýðnes | October 31, 2016 at 9:03 pm
to which i will channel my inner Paradoxy, bare my teeth and say that we’re less concerned about the scaring to death and more concerned about the raping and killing to death. Stopping the scaring would be nice, too, but there are priorities.

comment image

Attagirl.

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
3 years ago

@Paradoxy, heeee, that gif. She’s all “I’ll smile exactly as much as is socially required ’cause it’s getting in my way of putting this alcohol inside of me.”

@Simon Hales, Dial F For Frankenstein is fun! Also very much embedded in the time it was written when it comes to perceptions of AI. Still, a nice little gem!

@Nick,

I take issue with the claims that we’ve no idea how to define consciousness or intelligence. Intelligence is the ability to understand situations and respond to them in ways that are likely to achieve one’s goals. Consciousness is a process of maintaining a continuously updated model of one’s own perceptual, ratiocinative and motivational states – when a person is not doing this, they are unconscious.

That’s fair! We do have models. They aren’t hard models, is the problem – we can’t back them up with much other than conjecture or sociological study. Like, I can’t point to a neuron and say “That’s the neuron for “green-as-reference-to-healthy-plant”. We will get that, at which point we can probably validate some of our semantic network models! I’m excited for that! But we aren’t there yet. Consciousness is an even bigger question mark. We believe that your definition is the right one, but we can’t validate it.

This said? No argument!

@Skiriki, EJ, that’s a neat little project! It’s utterly unsurprising that we don’t know what cryptographic method the network’s using in that one – that’s sort of how those things work. Those networks have an input layer and an output layer, and one or more hidden layers. The hidden layers do the heavy lifting of figuring stuff out through training – the “minibatch” process that the paper talks about. That’s all configuring the hidden layers, probs through some sort of backprop. So, that’s not surprising.

It’s also not the case that we can’t figure out their method – I’m sure we could! There’s no reason to believe that they’re using an NP+ method, they were only able to outsmart Eve.

(It also makes me sad that they named the intruder Eve. Eve the Eavesdropper is fine and all, but I much prefer Trudy the Intruder)

Neat little experiment though, and a sign of things to come – self-configuring cryptographic agents in our phones would make a very interesting feature!

Skiriki
Skiriki
3 years ago

I collected the posts (at RPG.net’s forum) a friend of mine made about his mid-00s adventures in evolutive programming. I think I should ask him if I could share them with y’all, because they were very illustrating of the problem of developing machine-thinkin’…

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
3 years ago

(I…. I may also have developed RPG systems for dealing with distributive intelligent AI.)

(I may also have video game RPG systems and stories and structures for the same)

(halp)

Nick G
Nick G
3 years ago

Consciousness is an even bigger question mark. We believe that your definition is the right one, but we can’t validate it. – Scildfreja Unnýðnes

I’m inclined to say that my definition is at least roughly what people in general (at least, native English speakers) mean by “consciousness” when they are not philosophising! When they are philosophising, they get hung up on dubiously valid questions like “How do I know you’re really conscious, not just an automaton without inner experiences?”. You seem to be more interested in scientific questions of the “How does the brain generate consciousness?” variety – to which my answer is that it doesn’t – not on its own, anyway. Consciousness is a system-level emergent process of monitoring, anticipating, and acting, where the system includes not only the brain, but the rest of the body and the perceptible environment. Where perceptual and action links to the body and environment are attenuated, as in dreaming, at least some aspects of consciousness disappear or are attenuated as well. (Lucid dreaming might be urged as a counterexample, but the lucid dreamer has to keep constantly in mind that they are not linked to the external environment in the normal way, or lucidity is lost.) Dennett’s Consciousness Explained is the best philosophical treatment I’ve read, although I think it needs more emphasis on motivation and action, and supplementing with the insights in Andy Clark’s Supersizing the Mind. Both these philosophers pay appropriately close attention to cognitive science.

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
3 years ago

@Nick G, my interest in consciousness is largely scientific, yeah. Like, what is consciousness? Cause I can build a system that does the things you describe – you actually describe a very basic process for a number of inference system architectures. Like, that’s a subsumption architecture, or a blackboard system. Or even your basic neural network. Does that mean I can build a conscious system?

Saying “consciousness is input + modeling + prediction + output” is all well and good, but it’s insufficient, otherwise we’re surrounded by conscious systems. The voice recognition system in your phone does that. The autocorrect algorithms in the browser I’m typing in do that. They’re ubiquitous.

Could it be that these very simple systems are conscious? Maybe! That’s the issue. We don’t know. I’m very familiar with Dennett (haven’t read Clark, though, thank you for the suggestion!) and, while he does a lovely job of breaking things down for the casual reader, the reality of the situation is much, much more complex.

Not sure if my point is clear in this reply or not! Hopefully it is. It’s a confusing topic.

EJ (The Orphic Lizard)

(I’ve developed more than one RPG system for handling space flight, depending on where you sit on the realism vs fiction scale. I think nerds just end up creating systems to represent the things they know and care about.)

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
3 years ago

Ooh

how did you handle zero gravity

EJ (The Orphic Lizard)

I did microgravity via abstraction: severely reduce movement and place a penalty on every physical action roll, but also give a bonus equal to one’s Microgravity Operation skill. The penalty was balanced so that if the MicroGrav Ops skill was maxed out, it would cancel out the penalty.

This means that doing everything in microgravity is really hard; but if you get used to it and train hard, you can be as good as you are in gravity.

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
3 years ago

oooh.

See, I did it with an impulse token. I used a map, and each character on that map had two tokens – one for where they are now, and the other for where they would be next turn. They couldn’t move their character, but they could move their impulse token. At the end of every round, the characters slide towards their impulse token, their tokens slide along the same line so that they remain the same distance apart, and then you start over (after handling collisions and the like)

It was like ice-skating spaceships!

weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo

I’ve got to say, I’m side eyeing Nick G pretty hard for defending a brocialist troll in one thread and then posting in this one like nothing happened.

Sorry (no I’m not), but I’m not all right with someone who thinks it’s okay to call me twat and defending the use of dog whistles sticking around without apologizing for it. You are who you defend.

At least have the decency to wait a few days before coming back and trying to be all innocuous. Even Gert did that!

Not saying anyone else has to be unforgiving and shun him but for the time being, I’m not in the mood to let it slide.

EJ (The Orphic Lizard)

That’s a cool system for handling spaceship movement.

I’m of the opinion that an RPG doesn’t need tactical-boardgame-movement rules, because the narrative matters more. However, some people like them.

If I were doing a tactical-movement-on-a-map thing, I’d probably use real Newtonian movement with Cartesian vectors. It’s not that hard, and allows you to explore how acceleration really works and maneuver in cool ways. Crucially, it means that you get away from the “spacecraft has to point in the same direction as it moves” silliness.

I’m probably taking this too seriously.

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
3 years ago

wait he called you what now