So it’s ten days until the election now, and I cannot wait until this nightmare is over. Talk about it, or whatever else you want to talk about. No trolls, MRAs, Trumpkins, etc.
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Ten Days Now: Election, etc Open Thread
@kupo:
I thought Neanderthal descent was supposed to be a mark of pride for white supremacists? Or is this something different?
I’m not sure I want to know either.
@axecalibur, Kupo: thanks for the background. I vaguely remembered Gert saying some nasty things, but I couldn’t recall specifics.
@NickG: Words matter. if someone starts tossing around words that are widely accepted as misogynistic and racist, they will be treated as a misogynist and racist.
If someone says something like that, this community will call them on it. If they respond by taking their lumps, apologizing, and learning from it, the community will give them a chance to continue contributing (I’ve benefitted from that tolerance more than once). If they respond by doubling down and tossing out more insults, than whatever else they are saying will be ignored.
@EJ
I was curious about that when I learned I had more Neanderthal DNA than most people (I’m mostly Northern European) so I looked into it and Eastern Asians have more than Europeans. But that wouldn’t stop them from thinking it’s a white pride thing, either.
@ Nick G:
It is not just Gert’s posts in this thread that earned him the label of troll.
The regulars and and lurkers here have memories of what Gert has previously written on prior threads; I know *I* do (as a longtime lurker.)
If, indeed, Gert is MRAL, Gert has been happily doing this under numerous usernames since 2011 (at least.)
Part of the reason the Affordable Care Act is unpopular is that states can deny free coverage to poor people. It happens that many of those states have a high population of poor whites, who might start to view politics differently if they started getting good health care.
@Margot & Nick
“Articulate” is a dogwhistle when it comes to black men. “You’re so articulate!” is not a compliment on the black man toward whom it is being directed so much as it is an insult to all the other black men in the world, who the speaker is saying lack this trait. Obama is not above criticism, but calling him “articulate” is a tell that the speaker is coming from a place of racism.
Clinton is not noticeably more corrupt or less trustworthy than other career politicians. She is certainly not more so than Trump. Saying these things betrays misogyny. Clinton is not above criticism, but these are not the things for which she needs to be criticized. These are not critiques that anyone is making about male politicians in this race.
Israel is also not above criticism, and I will criticize the hell out of them. But complaining that they get a lot of US aid is anti-Semitic. Without that aid, Israel would not exist. When Gert bitches about the US giving aid to Israel, Gert is complaining that Israel is a thing.
I don’t know where either of you live, but these dogwhistles are really clear to anyone who knows how to hear them.
Try reading my first comment. As I said there:
So you’re saying that because Obama is black, Gerd should have been more careful to avoid hyperbole? Maybe so, but failure to do so is hardly evidence that he is actually judging Obama more harshly because of his race.
Apologies – I missed that reference to an earlier thread. But since Zionists are proud to call themselves Zionists, and have done so for over a century, and there are plenty of non-Jewish Zionists and non-Zionist Jews, it’s bizarre to claim that “complaining about Zionists” in itself “furthers antisemitism”. Of course it can be a part of antisemitic discourse – it depends on what complaints are being made, and in what manner, e.g. it clearly is if “Zionist” is in effect being used as code for “Jews”.
That’s not relevant to my point, which was (to repeat) that while Gert was unnecessarily rude, some of his points were valid, and some of the attacks on him unjustified.
I take it you’ve had your head in an opaque and soundproof bag this last year.
Nonsense. Israel established itself without US aid, and defeated the armies of Egypt, Syria and Jordan in 1967 without significant US aid (the USA was doing its best at that time to appear neutral in the Arab-Israeli conflict). Even without American aid, it would be now as it was then, by far the strongest military power in the region – and the only one with nuclear weapons. American military aid and political cover since then have been vital in allowing Israel to continue its illegal policy of settlements on occupied land, and oppression of the Palestinians.
Well, aren’t we all? We live in racist societies, and cannot wholly avoid contamination. The fact that that word came to mind for Gert may indeed be a tell. But if anyone said Gert calling Obama “articulate” was a dogwhistle, that would imply that he intended an insult to other black men. I see no evidence for that. Do you?
Oh, FFS.
Some of Gert’s points were valid. That’s a big problem with a lot of trolls, demagogues and fascists, really. They wrap their hateful falsehoods in a capsule of some true injustice.
MRAs and MGTOWs do this too. There are injustices happening to men. That’s the easy-to-swallow capsule; especially easy to swallow for men who’ve suffered those injustices. It’s the blame and the hate and the deeply-rooted self-destruction which are the actual payload, though. We shouldn’t deny the truth of the candy-coating, but we need to strongly repudiate the actual contents. They aren’t always easy to separate.
Regarding the “Zionists” thing – you’re right, there are self-identified Zionists, and they’re free to self-identify that way. However, how we use words, and in what situation, is important. You can tell a bit about the sea someone swims in by the words they use. Most people when talking about Israel use the word “Israel” or “Israeli”. There are two groups that use the term “Zionist” frequently enough for it to be the first thing to come to mind when talking about American foreign aide:
1) People who self-identify as Zionists or who frequently associate with those people, or,
2) Racists, neo-nazis, and anti-semites.
Group 2 is much more common to come across than group 1 on the internet. Especially on a website devoted to tracking and mocking a hate group. It’s not at all a far stretch to assume Gert belongs to group 2.
(The word “articulate” is similar when referring to someone of colour. If the first word that jumps to your mind when referring to an intelligent and well-spoken black President of the United States is “articulate”, you swim in dark waters.)
This is what is meant when it’s said that a word is “racist”, or an indicator of racism. The word can have a valid non-racist meaning. How the word is used and what circumstances it shows up in are both important. Context matters.
@Nick
Do you wanna do this? I mean, you do obviously wanna do this, but I’m giving you an out. Knowing you, you likely won’t take it…
I also brought up, in this thread, how a people using a word isn’t justification for everyone else to do so
Not the point
Take it up with the antisemites. If neonazis didn’t use zionist as a slur, we wouldn’t hafta be careful. They do, so we do
And using the word ‘zionist’ to refer to official Israeli fuckery instead of ‘the State of Israel’ or the ‘Israeli government’ or ‘Netanyahu’ is my 1st clue that your manner is suspect af. And dismissing those concerns is the 2nd clue…
No. Hairt is not a dogwhistle. ‘Articulate’ is a dogwhistle. Regardless of what Hairt meant. Don’t say it. Period
@EJ, kupo,
Following the fascists blathering on about Neandertals is one of my favourite giggles, because it just makes it so obvious how little they care about being right or honest, and how deeply they need to believe that Europeans are different and special. Their little HBD theories all turn to absolute mush when faced with real science, but oh how they cling!
First, neandertal was used pretty much as a synonym for (pardon the term) “mongoloid”, and was used parallel to phrenology to prove how noble and true and pure the nordic and aryan “race” was in comparison to the “degenerate” races.
Then it was discovered that neandertals weren’t ancestors to modern humans but were instead cousins, but they still used’em as metaphors.
Then it was discovered that cro-magnons and neandertals interbred in Europe, and all of a sudden it’s proof that Europeans are superior because neandertals are stronger and more resilient dontchakno, and Europeans combine the best of both subspecies anyways, right?
Then it was discovered that cro-magnons and neandertals interbed all over the ding dang place and they conveniently forget about the European interbreeding, and neandertals are once again primitive brutes that have direct connection to the non-white “savages” of the world.
Couldn’t telegraph your racism any stronger if you tried, guyse. Gee gee.
I’m starting to think that Nick G. isn’t actually interested in a conversation.
@NickG:
There is a valid distinction to be made between Jewish identity and various flavours of Israeli nationalism. I am not the person to make them, because I am not Jewish and so I am not the person to make that distinction.
I would recommend that unless you are Jewish, you perhaps do likewise and let others lead that discussion.
Gert has shown another facet of his fatphobic, ableist, anti-semitic, racist personality every time he’s come here, and every time he’s thrown a giant temper tantrum when he’s been called out on it because he is the Great White Male Saviour of the left, and smarter than all the rest of us, so how dare we question is casual use of the word “twat.” Every time, without fail.
@PoM & PeeVee
Agreed.
I think the Zionist Bonobo reference was meant to be calling me a Zionist because I have bonobo in my name, but it came off badly, he didn’t bother to explain it and since I’m not Jewish and do not identify as a Zionist, the insult was bizarre and most likely had anti-Semitic intent.
Besides the articulate thing, he called Obama “orator in chief” and that’s what pinged my racistdar. It was an awfully dismissive way to speak about him, especially considering what an accomplished and intelligent person he is. As if he’s secretly inferior and just tricking us with his pretty words and charisma. I don’t think he’d have talked that way about a white politician.
I never said non-Americans can’t criticize the US. My point was that England has a similarly bad past and present and English people have no room to act superior to us for being insufficiently progressive.
Anyway, I’ve been side eyeing Nick G for awhile now. He mostly pops into threads that are close to dead to talk condescendingly at people. Nothing ban worthy or necessarily trollish. Just snide asshattery that doesn’t get noticed much. Now he feels the need to defend Gert. That makes me really want to write him off.
And I don’t know who the fuck this Margot person and why they feel the need to defend an admitted troll but they can fuck off along with Nick. If being mean to trolls offends your delicate eyes, this is not the space for you. Whack a troll has always been our sport here since long before most of us even started commenting.
Regarding “Obama, big disappointment” … lol.
Sure, there’s lots to critique there. Drone strikes and Gitmo and all sorts of things. Even the best presidents had some deep flaws. Comes with being a leader of a country – repugnant choices abound.
But Obama also bulldozed in a measure of affordable health care and defended it against a half-hundred attempts to destroy it; he saved the American economy from a recession that threatened to turn into another Great Depression; his government saw the protection of true equal rights for LGBT people by enforcing equal marriage laws.
I have a list a mile long of things I wish Obama would have done, and I wish he would have fought harder for them – he was far too eager into giving the Republicans what they wanted when they weren’t giving him anything in return. He knew he was going to be vilified by the Right no matter what he did, why not push for deeper changes and then broadcast loudly about how obstructionist and ridiculous the Republicans were being?
(The answer is, of course, that the donors to the Republicans are also the donors to the Democrats, so the Dems can’t complain too loudly about certain things without losing funding. Again, gotta keep the pressure on the government to change!)
But – really? Obama, big disappointment? Pchhh. Obama will be remembered as one of the best presidents, a turning point in American history. A repudiation of unrestrained capitalism and the reintroduction of pro-social ideals into government. He’ll be remembered as the first echos of real democracy returning to the United States. It’s my hope that, where Obama was the morning bugle, Hillary will be the arrival of the vanguard.
Up and at’em!
He also dumped don’t ask, don’t tell and was the first president to support marriage equality although I wish he did it sooner.
He also spent most of his two terms with a Congress that is single mindedly devoted to obstructing him. It made a lot of progress simply impossible.
Yup, WWTH, he was hamstrung by the most obstructionist government ever. Like, they literally shut the government down entirely for a few days. I’d call them a bunch of babbies, but babies don’t deserve to be tarred like that. Babies go along with what you want sometimes, after all. And Obama still got work done. Dude deserves all the credit in the world.
Notable – there’s a good chance for the House to flip during this election! There are a lot of republican incumbents who show signs of losing to democrats. If the Dems get five seats, or four if Hillary wins, then they’ll control the House! Vote down-ticket, all you Americans! Show’em you mean business!
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ll5yccjSVv1qgveqy.gif
Speaking of retrograde trolls, the New Yorker saw fit to profile Mike “JuiceBro” Cernovich. Here’s the link.
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/10/31/trolls-for-trump
@Scildfreja
The Senate, you mean?
@Scildfreja
You mean the Senate.
Woops! Sorry. Our Senators up here aren’t elected, so I messed it up.
I messed it up you guys! It’s all messed up!