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alt-right anime nazis anti-Semitism empathy deficit entitled babies hillary clinton kitties literal nazis memes men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny racism sexual assault trump

Trump’s worst fans turn “grab ’em by the p**sy” into their new favorite meme

Pussy grabs back
Pussy grabs back

After that Access Hollywood tape of Trump bragging that his fame allowed him to get away with sexually assault women on a whim, his supporters and surrogates seized on what they saw as the ultimate rebuttal to Trump’s critics. Borrowing the argument from a meme that had already been circulating on the Internet for some time, they declared that they were “much more bothered by what Hillary has done than by what Trump has said.”

This argument would be a lot more convincing if a) Trump hadn’t been talking about things he claimed to have, you know, done, if b) women weren’t coming forward to tell media that he had in fact done these things to them and if c) Trump’s apologists were actually bothered by Trump’s claims.

While there are no doubt some Trump supporters who are genuinely troubled by Trump’s remarks, many of his most fervent followers think his comments (and presumably the actions he was describing) are hilarious. To many Trump superfans in the Alt-Right, Trump bragging about sexually assaulting women isn’t a bug, it’s a feature. And they have made it into their new favorite Trump meme.

In the latest “Memetic Monday” thread on Internet Nazi tabloid The Daily Stormer, you will find, alongside the standard racist caricatures and Hitler jokes and “Hillary for Prison” memes, a wide assortment of “grab ’em by the pussy” memes created by Daily Stormer readers or borrowed from other sites — some of them slick, some of them amateurish, and none of them funny.

Here are some of them. You will notice that some of the meme-makers have managed to work in some of their other favorite subjects — Hitler, Hillary being jailed, and even (I regret to have to tell you this) kittens. In the interest of keeping this post more-or-less safe for work, I’ve avoided the worst of the batch.

grab1

 

grabconan

grabhilter

grabnow

grabkike

grabhitprison

grabkitty

Of course, the “grab ’em by the pussy” memes were not the only jokes about sexual assault in the thread. Because these are neo-Nazi Trump fans, and that’s just how they roll.

grabfact

Trump 2016: Every Day is a New Low.

EDIT: Added a reference to the women who have come forward to say that Trump had indeed sexually assaulted them.

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Weird (and just about drained) Eddie
Weird (and just about drained) Eddie
4 years ago

Cyndi Lauper post on CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/13/opinions/cyndi-lauper-why-im-voting-for-hillary-clinton/index.html

She says something I’ve felt for a long time, the most important single issue in the election is that open Supreme Court Justice position, and other SC positions which may come open during the next President’s term.

dreemr
dreemr
4 years ago

@Dreadnought – I already feel much better, thanks to you and Scildfreya, and even just having a place to write this down.

Funny how something so offhanded and thoughtless was able to make me feel like a powerless and/or hysterically out-of-control young woman again. He’ll hide from me most of the day, most likely, since I did get very upset and he hates confrontations. And good riddance!

Fishy Goat
Fishy Goat
4 years ago

We don’t have a special liberal rape police, Rush. It’s the regular police who are gonna come knockin’ on your door.

If only it happened more often….

@dreemr Virtual hugs if you’d like them.

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
4 years ago

@JennyWren, thank you for voicing exactly what made me so nauseous about that whole “rape police” thing. As if it were a special category of offense for limp-wristed liberals and fragile lady-types, instead of being the horrific violation of self that it is.

@ikanreed,

None of that phases the 40% of voters who just don’t care.

(not at all disagreeing here, just sort of, I dunno, adding nuance?)

There’s a weird disconnect going on there. Misdirected cognitive dissonance. It’s important for a healthy mind to be able to maintain multiple, self-contradictory modes of thinking at the same time, but it’s also important to apply the right mode of thinking at the right time. They’re applying the distant, relatively emotionless mode when they should be applying the close, compassionate mode. It’s deeply frustrating, and a huge challenge to kick them into close mode. Political engagement doesn’t generally use it, it sticks to far mode.

They care about being good, about standing against rape and fraud and all of the things Trump has been confronted on. But their ability to care deeply has been deactivated. Their concerns are abstract and about ideas, not people. So mentioning the offenses of an individual, especially the festering-orange-rind-Trump, doesn’t penetrate deeply. He’s going to go after the real problems, you see, so the personal problems aren’t important.

It’s incredibly frustrating to watch. These people need to have their close mode activated before they receive this sort of information. Even then, just mentioning Trump or politics is generally enough to kick these people into far mode. Watching that shift in thinking happen is generally enough to make me disengage.

Sorry, enough rambling!

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
4 years ago

I’m not a hugger by nature, @Scildfreya, but you get all my internet hugs today. Thank you so much for your expansive kindness, you continue to be an inspiration to me in the way you interact with others.

http://pre03.deviantart.net/c9ab/th/pre/f/2012/029/1/0/fluttershy_blush_vector_by_velvetjellybeans-d4o1mti.png

<3 ! I'm not a hugger either, truth be told. I'm pretty fully steeped in that Anglo stoicism that's so incredibly challenging to overcome. Thank you.

Funny how something so offhanded and thoughtless was able to make me feel like a powerless and/or hysterically out-of-control young woman again. He’ll hide from me most of the day, most likely, since I did get very upset and he hates confrontations. And good riddance!

It’s funny how easy it is to flip that switch. Anxiety is a sneaky snek, and will sneak up on you when you least expect it. You put your truth in him, as your boss, to not overtax you and to treat you with respect, and he violated that in a real sense. I can understand how that would set off some panic.

He might understand what he’s done on some level – maybe even consciously. That rural Midwestern stoicism makes it hard to admit fault, after all. Hopefully he’ll blunder into your boundaries a little less in the future!

Jesalin
Jesalin
4 years ago

Not being a constitutional scholar (I’m Canadian) I just got around to checking out what the whole #repealthe19th thing is about . I kinda wish I didn’t, that’s revolting.

pitshade
pitshade
4 years ago

@ dreemr

Best hopes that your day has recovered or at least that you have found or made some shelter against it.

Weird (and just about drained) Eddie
Weird (and just about drained) Eddie
4 years ago

@ Scildfreja;

sort of, I dunno, adding nuance

You sound like you know a lot more than I about this subject, so lemme bounce this off you; I’ve been saying for a while that Trump’s base appeal is to the people who are (in their parlance) “tired of ‘political correctness’,” and support him because he’s going to make it “ok to be white again, and ok to be demeaning of [name of ‘other’ group] again”

But I can’t for the life of me see that applying to the 42%-ish of electorate who appear to support him! So are the ones who support him but aren’t “Heartiste”, aren’t “Vox Day”, aren’t Milo… are these people disengaging their empathy when the discussion turns to his bigoted rhetoric?

How the f**k does someone do that??? Not “why”, “HOW”?????

dreemr
dreemr
4 years ago

@FishyGoat thank you for the hugs and I can spare a few for you as well now, if you want them 🙂

@pitshade thank you and I am feeling much better 🙂

Dalillama
Dalillama
4 years ago

While Vladimir Putin is a fascist strongman, I think that a man who lost family in the siege of Leningrad would probably not appreciate being compared to Hitler specifically, or put into the same category as him.
@rugbyyogi

“I’m a patriot. Twice over. Both for my home country and my adopted country. I’m not jingoistic (I think)

It is not possible to be a U.S. patriot in a non-jingoistic fashion, nor the UK either. I honestly question if it’s possible at all, for anyone.
@msexceptiontotherule
Goats In Space!
comment image
And an inquisitive Chihuahua:
http://i.imgur.com/2nQIMM3.jpg
@Malitia

Mr. Orbán began as a bleeding heart liberal politician in the late 80s

Really? I admit i’m not intimately familiar with Hungarian politics, but every source I can find describes him as centre right even in the earliest days of his political career.

and was one of the loudest “Russians go home!” people. Then in the late 90s (when he first got into power) he metamorphosed into a nationalistic christian-conservative…

Nationalism attracts fascists like shit attracts flies, be it ever so pure in its motives. Even in cases where there’s actually a legit foreign oppressor to fight against, it’s urgent to keep on guard against it, lest you turn into what you’re fighting.

@leftwingfox

and wound up with the full audio on YouTube via the Young Turks.

Slightly OT, but they fuck right the hell off; they might as well call themselves the Hitler Jugend.
(Clarification for those not familiar with the history, the Young Turks were a political faction in the late 19th/early 20th centuries, and the principal architects of the Armenian Genocide. Cenk Uygur, by the way, claims the genocide never happened.)

@Dreemr
*hugs* if desired. I’m sorry you have to deal with that bs.

Megalibrarygirl
Megalibrarygirl
4 years ago

@Weird (and just about drained) Eddie

I think the Trump voters who aren’t alt-right are made up of the wealthy social conservatives, the religious right and those who vote GOP no matter what.

I still can’t believe anyone supports him, though. 🙁

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
4 years ago

@Dali

It is not possible to be a U.S. patriot in a non-jingoistic fashion

Hiya, I’m Axe!

weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo

Real issues = issues that effect white cishet men

Non-real issues = issues that don’t typically effect white cishet men

Hope that clears up the question about which issues are real.

Weird (and just about drained) Eddie
Weird (and just about drained) Eddie
4 years ago

@ Dalillama;

I’ve wondered that about that name. “The Young Turks” web site, is pretty progressive, at least the several vids I’ve seen.

Wikipedia’s page on him says Cenk Uygur “changed his views”, now says he doesn’t know enough to comment on Armenian Genocide (hey, a couple hours on Google will educate him FAST). He’s got to know where that name came from, though, and genocide denial aside, it was still a VERY right-leaning, pro-nationalist group.

Malitia
Malitia
4 years ago

@Dalillama

Well, the party he belonged to at least was (mostly) liberal at first and he toed the party line. The party (FIDESZ) broke into two in the the early 90s over the shift towards the center/right though and the more liberal people left (most to SZDSZ, which was the “big” local liberal party until some years ago)… Mr. Orbán wasn’t among them.

Malitia
Malitia
4 years ago

I’m not old enough to remember this though… ^^; I became politically active under the first Orbán government (1998-2002) with the deep conviction that I don’t want to see this clown anywhere near power ever again. Apparently I was the minority. :/

Dalillama
Dalillama
4 years ago

@Scildfreja

hey’re applying the distant, relatively emotionless mode when they should be applying the close, compassionate mode.

No, they aren’t. They’re just emotionally invested in very, very different things than you are. They are emotionally invested in punishing muslims, and queers, and immigrants, and black people, and indeed women. That is why they are emotionally invested in Trump.

They care about being good, about standing against rape and fraud and all of the things Trump has been confronted on.

Clearly they do not, or they would not act as they do. They define themselves as ‘good’, certainly, but their idea of good and mine are sufficiently divergent as to be entirely different concepts.

It’s incredibly frustrating to watch. These people need to have their close mode activated before they receive this sort of information.

No, they need to stop being vile people, and stop wanting the things I mentioned above.

@Weird Eddie

But I can’t for the life of me see that applying to the 42%-ish of electorate who appear to support him!

You have a really rosy view of white america, then.

So are the ones who support him but aren’t “Heartiste”, aren’t “Vox Day”, aren’t Milo… are these people disengaging their empathy when the discussion turns to his bigoted rhetoric?

No. They agree wholeheartedly with the bigoted rhetoric, because they are bigots.

I’ve wondered that about that name. “The Young Turks” web site, is pretty progressive, at least the several vids I’ve seen.

Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn.

@Axe

Hiya, I’m Axe!

And you’re a wonderful fellow whom I adore, but U.S. nationalism is deeply problematic on a fundamental level.

Podkayne Lives (Hairless Marsupial Gutter Nun)
Podkayne Lives (Hairless Marsupial Gutter Nun)
4 years ago

We don’t have a special liberal rape police who are out to defend our perfumed effete urban liberal sensibilities, Rush. Rape is actually illegal. It’s the regular police who are gonna come knockin’ on your door.

“Oooh, I might have killed someone. What are you going to do, send the MURDER POLICE after me?”

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
4 years ago

@Eddie
Cenk’s ‘progressive’ and the Turks were ‘very right leaning’. It all makes loads more sense with the scare quotes 🙂

Sticking genocide on ‘the other team’ doesn’t help, and neither does assuming only the best about ‘your team’. There are no ‘teams’. People are just people, and their self identification only goes so far. Plenty of #Gaters are in favor of universal healthcare, ya know? No expectations is my motto 😀

@Dali

And you’re a wonderful fellow whom I adore, but U.S. nationalism is deeply problematic on a fundamental level

Thank you, mutual, and deeply indeed. I just think I thread that needle pretty well. Or maybe I don’t. Maybe it’s never gonna be good enough. I ain’t gonna quit trying tho

My country is easily all time near the top in fuckery. Never missed an All Star Game, ya know? Still, the potential is there for goodness. Nationalism, for me, is cheering loudly everytime that good comes thru and raging even louder at the bad. Even both simultaneously. As you might imagine, this campaign makes the cheers few and far between…

But, like, if Canada feels like invading, I’m not super keen to object. Don’t force me to learn French, and we’ll be fine /s, mostly 😁

pitshade
pitshade
4 years ago

Regarding the non-alt right and support for Trump: In addition to privilege blindness and other factors, consider that a lot are motivated by obstinate partisanship. Trump got the nomination for GOP candidate and therefore BY GAWD they are going to support him. It bypasses any critical thinking or empathy they may otherwise have. In hindsight they may have different opinions, my conservative coworkers have low opinions if Dubya but talk rosily about the Clinton presidency but neither was the case when it actually mattered.

kupo
kupo
4 years ago

@WWTH
But what if it’s the cishet white men’s wives who are sexually assaulted? Surely that affects them! /s

@dreemr
I’m sorry you had to deal with that. I just had to explain to my boss why Hillary wanting to raise taxes is not at all the same as Trump wanting to infringe on my rights and how it’s a terrible argument to say that Trump isn’t going to do anything that would jeopardize Roe v. Wade because he lies so he’s not going to hold himself to his campaign promises. (I did mention Pense and his miscarriage funeral plan, which my boss says he knows nothing about so he declined to comment on.) At least I had help from another teammate who was also arguing for my side and another who just laughed every time my boss said something ridiculous.

Dalillama
Dalillama
4 years ago

@Axe

Sticking genocide on ‘the other team’ doesn’t help, and neither does assuming only the best about ‘your team’. There are no ‘teams’.

Well, yes and no. There are ‘teams’ in the sense that there are different political parties and movements who have their own sets of goals and ideals, and membership that at least loosely agrees with same. And any party or movement that contains people who support genocide doesn’t contain me.

just think I thread that needle pretty well. Or maybe I don’t. Maybe it’s never gonna be good enough.

What I’m getting at is that it can’t be, because there’s no needle to thread. When you take away the imperialism, the colonialism, and the bigotry, there’s nothing left.

Still, the potential is there for goodness.

Well this goes back to that discussion of ‘the right thing to do’ from the other thread; people define a nation as ‘good’ or ‘bad’ depending on how they feel about the culture, or the actions of the government, or whatever. But nations aren’t people; they aren’t ‘good’ or ‘bad’, so much as ‘functional’ or ‘dysfunctional’, and even those are somewhat subjective. I take it as a given, for instance, that a prosperous, peaceful, and safe society is a good thing, and this informs my politics. The likes of Andrew Anglin do not; they hold that struggle and strife are social goods, and society should be organized to encourage them. I’m kind of rambling now.

Nationalism, for me, is cheering loudly everytime that good comes thru and raging even louder at the bad.

For me, when my government or its agents misbehave, I am angry for the same reason I am angry when agents of a foreign government do so; partially because I have personal moral objections to such behaviour from anyone, and partially because they are failing at their purpose. When the government does things right, that’s what they’re there for; it is, in principle, the whole reason we tolerate these assholes in the first place. As far as society, separate from government, American political culture is frankly shit, and I have nothing good to say about it. American culture in general has some decent aspects (mostly nicked from African-American culture if we’re to be honest), but onece again, ‘we’re not all assholes all the time’ isn’t exactly something to cheer for on my view, anymore than, say, not sexually harassing people is something one should be praised for, rather than a minimum standard of behaviour.

MyDickIsUge
MyDickIsUge
4 years ago

Tits and a pussy. That’s all it takes. In other words, all men’s Achilles heels break down to their desire for tits and pussy. Women also bring trillions in forced wealth and power transfer from men to women through Affirmative Action, Title IX, Affirmative Consent, VAWA, the majority of funding for health-education-welfare diverted from men to women, alimony, asset division, child support (alimony++) and in some cases multi-million dollar civil suit payouts following false accusations.

This forced wealth transfer from men to women has been going on for decades. Not only does it force wealth and power from men to women, but it also removes men’s ability to compete with women through the many female-only quota systems, like Title IX and Affirmative Action.

Say what you want about women, but they’re far more shrewd than men. Men simply build and maintain the infrastructure and keep women elevated above men. Men are stupid, gynocentric, self-defeating pussy bandits – which is why women throw rocks at them.

Women (and their enablers) also bring, for the past few centuries, an all male front line combat fighting force and male-only conscription. Millions of men have laid down their lives to hand women not only all wealth and power through the aforementioned laws and policies – but the sacrifice of their one-and-only lives in battle – in defense of women. Oh – the irony.

Back in the day – women were fine taking care of the kids, cooking and looking after the cleaning, because jobs in those days didn’t have modern conveniences like automation, air conditioning, good pay, safe working conditions, worker’s rights, a bit of prestige and all of the leisure associated with having a degree and a safe, adequately paid working environment. In short – back in the day – jobs sucked and were not only physically crushing but also soul crushing. Men created/invented a positive work environment and women simply demanded ownership – because oppression and patriarchy – while at the same time severely distorting history and painting all men as rapists and domestic abusers. With Affirmative Consent, men’s rights to presumption of innocence and due process go out the window – with civil suit payouts following false accusations of rape/assault and following the wrath of a woman scorned. Get convicted of DV or assault against a woman these days – whether real or contrived – and your life is over. No one will hire you – so you might as well eat lead.

Woman are survivors and know the social shaming of men and the promotion of gynocentrism not only produces the many aforementioned forced wealth and power transfer opportunities – but also produces socially compliant, unaware men. In short – men are stupid and deserve all thrown rocks.

leftwingfox
leftwingfox
4 years ago

@Dalillama: My apologies; I was unaware of the background there. That video was the first hit in my Google search which contained the audio segment in question.

Hambeast
Hambeast
4 years ago

Dreemr – Also sending out good wishes (not being much of a hugger, either).

OoglyBoggles – your quotes reminded me of a clip I’ve seen several times of a woman Trump supporter holding a sign that I swear looks like it says “Bill Clinton is a Papist” even though I know it likely reads “Rapist” instead. I’ve seen the same clip several times and it still looks for all the world like it says Papist!

Nick G
Nick G
4 years ago

Well, the party he belonged to at least was (mostly) liberal at first and he toed the party line. The party (FIDESZ) broke into two in the the early 90s over the shift towards the center/right though – Malitia

Hmm. I’m not Hungarian, but had a Hungarian colleague 1989-90, who was a FIDESZ supporter, and my impression was that they were already pretty right-wing (he was a great fan of Thatcher and I picked up a slight whiff of antisemitism once or twice).

Bakunin
Bakunin
4 years ago

I can almost see the appeal of fascism in America, since we never directly suffered under it, but what the f*ck Europe? Wasn’t actually experiencing it enough to sour the continent on the whole idea? How did Mosely ever leave his house after the Blitz? How does any Frenchperson look at the history of the 20th century and say, “Yes, this was a good choice then, and it’s a good choice still?” Just baffling.

Not trying to single out any actual people here, just a hypothetical citizen of said continent/country. The U.S. of course has its own crop of facists, but since they never actually took power so they could f*ck everything up there isn’t a memory of how bad they are. But in places they actually ran? How do you forget, or worse, see it as a golden age?

Julia
Julia
4 years ago

I see they can’t make up their minds on whether Trump actually did it and these women aren’t lying or whether he DID do it and therefore we should CELEBRATE!!

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
4 years ago

@Weird (and just about drained) Eddie, I won’t get into the details of it here. If you’d like to read about it, I was referring to something called the Dual Process model, specifically regarding reasoning (though it all applies, really). It’s interesting stuff, with a growing body of evidence. It doesn’t excuse them from being terrible and wrong, though, which is what I think Dalillama’s reply was about. @Dalillama, if I disturbed your calm, I apologize.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
4 years ago

@Dali
By ‘no teams’, I mean that you can’t assume too much from that ‘team’. And the more vague the designation (‘left and rght’ are the worst offenders), the less can be assumed. How you identify doesn’t at all matter to me. I don’t care about your team. What do you think? How do you act? No expectations

What I’m getting at is that it can’t be, because there’s no needle to thread

Understood

But nations aren’t people

So, I’m anthropomorphizing? I see that…

For me, when my government or its agents misbehave, I am angry for the same reason I am angry when agents of a foreign government do so

I’m more mad when the fuckery carries the stars and stripes

‘we’re not all assholes all the time’ isn’t exactly something to cheer for on my view

I’m not saying the country’s good. I’m saying what it does (culture or government) can be good. I’ll cheer that stuff. Every time

Weird (and just about drained) Eddie
Weird (and just about drained) Eddie
4 years ago

@ Scildfreja

Thanx, I’ll research that

Also, this is precious!!

In a letter to Trump attorney Marc E. Kasowitz sent Thursday, New York Times general counsel David McCraw wrote, of the request that the Times retract the story, “We decline to do so.”

McCraw then laid into Kasowitz and his client, writing, “The essence of a libel claim, of course, is the protection of one’s reputation. Mr. Trump has bragged about his non-consensual sexual touching of women. He has bragged about intruding on beauty pageant contestants in their dressing rooms. He acquiesced to a radio host’s request to discuss Mr. Trump’s own daughter as a ‘piece of ass.’ Multiple women not mentioned in our article have publicly come forward to report on Mr. Trump’s unwanted advances. Nothing in our article has had the slightest effect on the reputation that Mr. Trump, through his own words and actions, has already created for himself.”

msexceptiontotherule
msexceptiontotherule
4 years ago

I’ve got someone who thinks that if Clinton gets elected, she’ll eliminate ethics in politics, censor EVERYONE and EVERYTHING, making America a place without freedom. They think that Trump is the person who will stop all that from happening.

*sigh*
*headdeskheaddeskheaddeskheaddeskheaddesk*

Dalillama
Dalillama
4 years ago

@Scildfreja

It doesn’t excuse them from being terrible and wrong, though, which is what I think Dalillama’s reply was about.

I did understand what you were getting at, but I think you are incorrect. To wit, I argue that activating the compassionate mode of thinking won’t help, because they will feel compassion for Trump, not his victims. I will also note that they’re total crap at distant, analytical thinking, so it really doesn’t matter what mode they’re in for most purposes.

@Axe

I’m more mad when the fuckery carries the stars and stripes

I tend to pay more attention to the fuckery the U.S. government gets up to, but that’s because a)I theoretically have some ability to change shit here, and it helps to know what needs changed, and b) changing shit needs convincing other people that something needs changed, and when you’re dealing with decent people, pointing to an atrocity or two is usually convincing. (and if the fuckery in question doesn’t convince someone that it needs changed, you’ve learned something important about them.)

I’m not saying the country’s good. I’m saying what it does (culture or government) can be good. I’ll cheer that stuff. Every time

Well, sure, but I’ll cheer when Rwanda does good stuff too; This is really sweet, for instance. I’ve been cheering for Gaviotas for years, for all they’re in Colombia. The Japanese Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA) is planning to land probes on Phobos and send a solar-sail ship to Jupiter, and I couldn’t be more thrilled. Whenever anyone or anyones do good, the world’s a better place, and I’m happy about that. I’m a little happier when it directly affects me, which is mostly gonna be stuff done in/by the States, but stuff that benefits people I know personally can happen most anywhere (Indeed, the reason I happen to know about the Safegas program is that my cousin’s married to the founder), and I also care generally about people’s fate, and like to see folks doing well and doing cool stuff, no matter where it happens or to whom. (Fascists excepted; I will laugh like a hyena at their misfortunes).

JennyWren
JennyWren
4 years ago

There’s been several people lately saying things like “I don’t know how anyone can vote for Drumpf”, and, I know what you mean. But it’s important to be able to imagine people complexly, and that means not just reaching for “well, they must all be evil-hearted bigots”. ‘Cos that’s just an easy answer. There’s been a really good article on Cracked lately about imagining Trump voters complexly, and I’m sure that folks here will be interested:
http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reasons-trumps-rise-that-no-one-talks-about/

@Dali

I consider myself patriotic towards the UK. Partly because if we lefty-types don’t claim the label, then that leaves it in the hands of people who would bring further shame to the country. And partly because there are lots of great things about my country! We had the first underground trains! We have beautiful buildings and landscapes! Cricket in the park on Sunday and clotted cream with scones! I feel like I can love the good bits without white-washing the bad bits.

(Which admittedly are large. I found out the other day that it was the English who invented the blood libel! As soon as I think I know all the things my country’s done that I’m ashamed of, I find another.)

If nothing else, then I don’t have another country to be proud of. I’ve only got this one. So I’d better work to make it as good as I can! It’s got a lot of bad stuff in its past, but it’s the only one I got.

kupo
kupo
4 years ago

@JennyWren
One can understand that Trump voters are human beings with complex motivations and still believe that they are at the very least saying “I’m okay with voting in a racist, misogynistic, petty, egotistical person into office and all that that implies if it means my pet issue is handled the way I want.”

GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
4 years ago

I tend to think of patriotism as a very negative thing, possibly even outright evil, because it suggests that you need to support “your” country even when it is criminally wrong. As someone who was sent to prison for refusing to participate in a viciously racist genocidal war (Vietnam), I suppose my views on the subject are a bit biased.

In considering the people who still support Trumpelthinskin, I don’t admire them in the least but I think you have to take into account the yuuge propaganda war that has been waged against HRC. I’ve followed her throughout her career, and it is my belief that she is about as honest as you can be and still be a successful politician. However, the propaganda campaign has convinced a lot of people that she’s the most dishonest, corrupt politician in history (hah!), that she’s been involved in murdering 40+ people, that she’s Satan in the flesh (see Alex Jones’s claim that she and Obama stink of sulfur) — that, for example, she’s going to invite the UN in to take over the US.

One of the problems that the internet has exacerbated is the number of conspiracy theories going around, and particularly the myriad ways facts and half-truths can be spun, so that you have to be a pretty sophisticated consumer of information to get fairly close to the truth. I grew up in politics, and I’ve been a very interested spectator all my life, so I have a fairly good idea of what is and isn’t politics as usual.

When you look at conspiracy theories they often seem to be supereficially plausible, but if you look closely enough there’s always a fatal flaw. For example the Birther claim that Obama was born in Kenya is not impossible, but to believe it you have to assume that a very pregnant woman made the arduous trip from Hawaii to Kenya in 1961 so that her son could be technically ineligible to be President and then went to some serious effort to conceal that technical ineligibility.

(TW: violence against children) Recently I got involved in an argument on another blog with people who believe the Sandy Hook shooting was an Obama administration black-flag operation intended to cause demands for gun regulation. They claim the Sandy Hook school had been closed for several years and was re-opened just for the staged shooting, and that no children were killed there. This argument assumes that everyone in the entire town of Newtown (and probably a good deal of the surrounding area) plus probably all the police in Connecticut were in on the deal.

These are extreme examples, of course, but the science of deception by advertising is greatly advanced and can be used to create very effective propaganda for political purposes — and once people have swallowed a lie, it is very hard for most of them to disgorge it. When I was a kid, one brand of aspirin claimed to have “instant flaking action” and used an elaborate glass esophagus filled with water to demonstrate the “fact”. Being the curious little shit I was, I threw a store-brand aspirin into a glass of water and discovered that the same thing happened. But I’ll bet most of the people who saw that commercial thought that it was something special that only Bayer aspirin did. Then, recently, some company marketing acetaminophen was claiming that it was superior because it wasn’t an NSAID. I wonder how many people realized that all that really meant was that — unlike ibuprofen — it had no anti-inflammatory effect.

What I’m saying is that we live in a world where we are surrounded by questionable claims made by trained propagandists, and you really have to be both smart and wary to resist them. There are a lot of people who are neither.

SinisterPigeon
SinisterPigeon
4 years ago

@msexceptiontotherule

Hey they have a point. Without Trump what will happen to our freedoms! Freedom has no better defender then the Trumpster! I mean take Freedom of the Press for exam…

Ok but Body autonomy that’s….

Freedom of Religion! He has tons of that unless you’re….

Freedom to a fair trial and no cruel and unusual punishment he HAS to..um..

Well at least I will be free to use all the racial slurs I want. That’s freedom right?

/s

Dalillama
Dalillama
4 years ago

@JennyWren

ut it’s important to be able to imagine people complexly, and that means not just reaching for “well, they must all be evil-hearted bigots”.

‘Cept they kinda are. These are the same people who support HB2, who post ‘Blue Lives Matter’ signs in their yards, scream epithets outside Planned Parenthood clinics, and harass rape victims. The fact that they’re willing to tolerate Trump’s horrible shit makes them horrible people, full stop.

Partly because if we lefty-types don’t claim the label, then that leaves it in the hands of people who would bring further shame to the country.

Samuel Johnson said that patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. He was wrong; it’s usually the first. The only use that patriotism ever had is shrouding atrocities in a flag. If they weren’t doing shameful things under its cover, they’d have no need of it. The left certainly hasn’t any.

If nothing else, then I don’t have another country to be proud of.

It’s beyond my comprehension why anyone would be proud any nation, to be honest. I’m no more proud of my nation than I am of my computer.

kupo
kupo
4 years ago

@Grumpy
Did they actually claim that it not being an NSAID made it superior or did you assume that because they were advertising it as such they were implying that made it superior? I’m asking because there are other reasons to advertise that a drug isn’t an NSAID. For example, some medications can’t be mixed with NSAIDs, so for people taking those, it’s a positive. I see this same attitude with other advertising / labeling. For example, when people complain about how organic foods aren’t more nutritious or how gluten free foods aren’t always healthier, my response is, “yes, and?” Those were never the reasons people wanted those things. It’s just an assumption that other people made that the only reason to advertise / label something in a certain way is superiority, but that’s not always true.
/rant

Bloop a Doop
Bloop a Doop
4 years ago

I think you missed my “favorite” one here

It confuses me on so many levels…. Is the creator aware that the “in soviet russia” reversal meme still requires an actual joke in order to be funny? Did they realize that they were using a picture of Katya Zamolodchikova, fabulous and talented drag queen? Is this part of the “joke”? Or was this someone googling “russian woman” and not paying any attention?

GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
4 years ago

@kupo You’re putting your finger on the problem. In the context of the ad, they were obviously trying to imply that there was something sinister about NSAIDs without actually saying it. (I myself can’t take NSAIDs because of kidney issues.) The point I was making is that there are all sorts of ways of laying a message between the lines without literally lying, many of which are more sophisticated (and thus less easy to defend against) than this one.

Fox news has promoted a world view that is fairly consistent and easy to swallow for unsophisticated viewers. It is very difficult for people who have bought into Foxthink to see HRC as anything much less than evil incarnate, which from that point of view makes Trumpelthinskin seem like the lesser evil. I hear a lot of people who ask how I could possibly consider voting for a member of the Clinton Crime Family.

Aunt Podger
Aunt Podger
4 years ago

About patriotism: I come from a long line of soldiers and soldiers’ spouses. My parents, stepmother, godparents, and grandparents were all decorated veterans of one sort or another, and very clear on the fact that one of the duties a person owed her country by the patriotic American was to stand up and point out when it was being untrue, unjust, and unAmerican. To misquote the plagiarism an absolute asshole who did have a few good things to say, Winston Churchill, “Democracy is the second-worst form of government ever— every other form of government that has heretofore been tried being tied for first place.”

I love my country. I know it has done revolting things. My disgust at its treatment of damn’ near everyone and everything (and the labeling of its puerile hatred of the brown, the queer, the poor— 2/3 of that is ME— by the ignorant and the fearful as “patriotic”) does not excuse me from loving it and learning its true history and trying to fix it by every means necessary, any more than an overstimulated toddler’s squeal of “I hate you, Mommy!” give a mother the excuse to walk away from her child. That’s when you hold your baby the tightest and teach it to breathe deeply, because that’s when it needs calm kindness and maturity most of all. I know the United States, from eugenics to “night doctors” to genocide to human trafficking on my doorstep. I know my country is capable of better, and I will not stop asking for it.

Maybe that’s jingoism. It’s certainly empty, emotional words; that I give you. I don’t care what label you put on it. It’s what I am.

Be right back for my brutal takedown. Have to go pick up my ‘scripts.

Dalillama
Dalillama
4 years ago

@Aunt Podger

any more than an overstimulated toddler’s squeal of “I hate you, Mommy!” give a mother the excuse to walk away from her child. That’s when you hold your baby the tightest and teach it to breathe deeply, because that’s when it needs calm kindness and maturity most of all

If I wanted children I would have some. The U.S. is not my child, or anyone’s. It is an agreement to organise a chunk of territory and the population thereof in a particular manner, ostensibly for the general benefit. When it is to the general benefit, it’s working well, if not it needs to be reorganised. It is not a person, let alone a member of my family.

very clear on the fact that one of the duties a person owed her country

The only duty I owe the US is a percentage of the value of any goods I might import.

Democracy is the second-worst form of government ever— every other form of government that has heretofore been tried being tied for first place.

There’s more than one way to organise a democracy, and ours is frankly second rate.

It’s what I am

This is why I advise people to be careful what they make part of your identity or sense of self. Once it’s there it’s hard to get rid of, even in the face of changing knowledge or circumstance. I see it a lot with political affiliation; e.g. people who say that the GOP is full of racists and misogynists, but stay members and keep voting R, because their identity iz tied up being a Republican; it’s who they are.

Aunt Podger
Aunt Podger
4 years ago

I’m sorry. I did not mean to imply that you had some sort of duty to this country; that any person has an obligation not to be childfree, so long as that person has not actually spawned offspring without finding a good home for it; or that anyone has the obligation to look upon this country as a person.

I certainly do not think that your opinions are invalid or even particularly incorrect; if respect is something that ought to be earned (a ludicrous notion in my mind; a certain amount of respect is owed to any sentient until such point that they demonstrate that they have no concept of respecting others), you have earned nothing but respect with skillful and incisive rhetoric; wisdom and passion; and great taste in avatars.

Dalillama
Dalillama
4 years ago

The words patriotic and duty appearing in the same sentence are pretty much guaranteed to get my back up, but itook no offence. I also appreciate your estimation if my character 🙂
My position can basically be summed up as follows: That if something is worth doing, that’s enough justification and patriotism is unnecessary, while actions that need the cloakmof patriotism to be swallowed are unjustifiable by any means.

Aunt Podger
Aunt Podger
4 years ago

I absolutely see what you’re saying, there, and I see that it makes sense.

I think that patriotism is a gut response, myself. To abuse a conceit, I try to turn my gut responses into useful nitrogen fertilizer, but I definitely see where butt-kicking is called for when some childish churl uses it to ruin a wedding and clear a room.

Deimos Masque
Deimos Masque
4 years ago

/delurk

As a citizen of the United States of America, I do feel patriotic to my country.

To me that means, that I call out his faults, because I know it’s better than that.

It means that with every vote, and every political debate I have with a friend; I’m trying to make my country better.

Blind Patriotism is idiotic, I prefer the version that accepts the flaws and knows it can be better.

Jingoism is being warlike. Honestly it’s an Imperialistic ideal that what works for you will work for everyone. That you can somehow apply your nation’s values through war.

That rarely works.

As a swing state voter, both I and my fiance are voting for Hillary Clinton even though we dislike her for various reasons. Because the truth of the matter is any other vote, is a vote against the concept of what America is supposed to be.

A place where anyone can come from nothing, and then suddenly become something.

Lady Liberty has it written on her Stone tablet. And it shames me that so many people want to deny what she says.

“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.”

Well it seems, unless you are brown. Then get out.

I both love my country for what it can be, and hate the evil tjat hides in its underbelly

Malitia
Malitia
4 years ago

@Nick G

“Slight whiff of antisemitism” is unfortunately pretty normal in most of the Hungarian population. Oddly the party with the more Thatcher like politics those days would be MDF (They are still pretty hated for being the biggest party in our first freely elected government and being a big force for privatization). They had a party break too people jumping ship to Fidesz mostly… it was somewhat later than the Fidesz’s mind you.

I swear talking about Hungarian politics is like trying to recap a daytime soap. :/

Dalillama
Dalillama
4 years ago

@Malitia

I swear talking about Hungarian politics is like trying to recap a daytime soap.. :/

To be fair, everyone’s politics is like that.

EJ (The Orphic Lizard)

@Malitia:
From what you and my other Hungarian friends say, it sounds very difficult. My sympathies go out to you all. There’s nothing quite as ugly as a privileged group panicking as their grip weakens; and I hope it doesn’t get worse than it is now.

Thank you for sharing with us and for teaching us.

@Dalillama:

My position can basically be summed up as follows: That if something is worth doing, that’s enough justification and patriotism is unnecessary, while actions that need the cloak of patriotism to be swallowed are unjustifiable by any means.

This. We need to engrave this on something, in letters eleven and a half feet high, because just quoting it here isn’t sufficient.

(I’d probably go a little further and say the following:

Firstly, if any person attempts to tell you that you must support policy A or B because you happen to be born on a particular side of a line on a map, or because of any other accident of birth, then that person is up to shenanigans.

Secondly, if you find yourself a citizen of a country which is currently engaging in misdeeds, then it is your responsibility to betray your country in whatever way can best bring about the failure of those misdeeds.)