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alt-right entitled babies heartiste literal nazis men who should not ever be with women ever post contains sarcasm racism trump

Alt Right goes Alt Banksy with amazing(ly dumb) Adidas meme

Alt-right "street artists" will never match the brilliance of this bit of graffiti
Alt-right “street artists” will never match the brilliance of this bit of graffiti

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The Alt-Right has a new plan to take over the culture … by appropriating the “corporate symbols of the left” and — get this! — subverting them. And then, like, pasting them on buildings and stuff. Because no one has ever thought of THAT before! 

In a recent blog post, the pickup-artist-turned-white-supremacist-Trump-superfan “Heartiste” proudly posts a photo of one such subversion: street posters that have transformed the Apple logo, “an iconic image of globohomo shitlibbery,” into “a pro-Trumpening war banner” by turning the standard bite from the apple into a Trump silhouette.

Aw, it’s cute — they think they’re Banksy!

Heartiste then posts his own contribution to the “existential war for the soul of Western Man.”

Er, what?
Er, what?

If you’ve ever wondered if it was possible to screw up in Photoshop if all you’re doing is posting words onto a plain white background, it turns out the answer is “yes.”

Here’s a slightly more clever use of the Adidas brand:

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Handsome "Punkle Stan" Jack

I found out today that Forbes has this rule call ‘The Trump Rule‘, and what it is is that whenever Trump states how wealthy he is, he’s actually worth only a third of what he says he does.

I love it.

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
4 years ago

@SFHC

I need to borrow your memory capacity for a while. Trying to study. :p

Dalillama
4 years ago

@ Scildfreja

Because them leftists sure love their bloated inefficiencies, I guess?

This is one of the standard canards of the Right, yes.

Which is how you can have a boardroom of “Leftist” billionaires that are ordering the crushing of dissidents in African holdings, sending bribes to the government to get lower taxes, and destroying the last remaining wildernesses on the planet, all while laughing and patting themselves on the back.

Ah, but you see, they also donate to Pride and say they’re equal opportunity employers, so clearly they’re evil SJWs.

It’s sad, really, because in the end we both think that those rich fat cats are the bad guys.

For totally different reasons, however. If the fat cats would just go back to publically shitting on minorities, the fascists would love them wholeheartedly again.

For some reason the alt-right doesn’t want to realize that we oppose those plunderous assholes with our every breath, because then they might have to work with us to beat them.

They don’t want to beat them. They want to join them.

Better to blame the left as a willing accomplice to their rise instead of owning up to the fact that it’s traditional conservative right-wing thinking that led to their rise.

Well, if they had foresight or a sense of history, they wouldn’t be fascists, would they?

The principle of charity suggests that they actually want good outcomes for people (

The principle of charity can let you down sometimes. Fascists don’t want good outcomes for you, or for me. They want good outcomes for cishet christian (usually) white men, and they want everyone else dead or enslaved.

With that in mind, I dunno if those are the right conclusions. I’m sort of searching in the dark here, but by “corporatist” they likely mean the opposite of “successful business”.

Right-libertarians like to pretend there’s a distinction between ‘real’ capitalism and ‘crony’ capitalism, but other fascists usually don’t bother.
@Weird (not wired) Eddie

In the microsecond before it got co-opted by the christian fundamentalists, the Tea Party was a conservative movement spawned out of anger at the banks for the economic meltdown of 2008.

No, it was spawned out of anger at the election of Barack Obama. (Technically, it was spawned by yet another Koch-funded propaganda mill back in 2002, as a generic astroturf anti-tax group, but it really took off when Obama won the election). There was never even the tinienst fraction of a second where it was a legitimate movement with a legitimate cause.

In the streets, that movement should instantly make common cause with the Occupy Wall Street movement.

This also assumes that Occupy would have anything to do with them. And if they had, I’d’ve dumped them like a hot rock in that very instant. No ally of the tea party is an ally of mine.

kupo
kupo
4 years ago

Well. Pol, a bunch of people addressed you already, but I thought I would go into detail for any lurkers not quite sure what went wrong there.

I mean, how did my comment draw this response from you guys? I thought that I was being truthful. And to be honest, nice.

I mean, you’re probably being truthful in that you believe this is a good solution. Society teaches us that people lash our because they’re lonely. That’s not really the whole story, though. Some people may lash out due to loneliness but that’s rarely the only factor.

-You assume that a relationship can fix someone. It can’t. Sometimes a relationship can have a positive influence on someone, but if they have hate as deep as heartiste there’s no amount of emotional support that a single person can provide that will fix it.
-You assume that he even wants a relationship. Asexual and aromantic people exist, and when you generalize problems like this as being fixable by sex or romance or both, you’re marginalizing people on those spectrums.
-Your suggestion would put a real human being in harm’s way. He is extremely hateful.

I’m not even going to get into the ‘it’ discussion because it’s already been covered well.

Btw, I’ve been told before that I just needed a relationship to “fix” me. I did not need one, could not emotionally handle one, and it caused me a lot of extra pain having to constantly answer questions about why I wasn’t ready for a relationship at that time. It’s extremely patronizing to assume that you know what’s best for someone when it comes to relationships.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

Does anyone else find the ‘they’ (singular) pronoun feels a bit impersonal at times?

Sometimes it seems fine

“I was out with Bob last night; they’re a right laugh”

But at other times it seems a bit ‘distancing’

“Bob rang; they wanted to speak to you”

I know it’s the best we’ve got at the moment, but does anyone else experience this or is it just me? And if it is a real thing, any linguists have any ideas what’s behind it?

kupo
kupo
4 years ago

@Alan
Is the use of plural maybe a bit more distanced? For example, the royal we feels distant to me, similar to how the passive voice feels. And actually when I write documentation of my work I use ‘we’ even when I am the only one doing the work I’m documenting because ‘I’ feels too personal for formal documentation. But IANA Linguist. 🙂

Weird (not wired) Eddie
Weird (not wired) Eddie
4 years ago

@ Dalillama

There was never even the tinienst fraction of a second where it was a legitimate movement with a legitimate cause.

Conservatives, particularly economic conservatives don’t have “legitimate movements” regarding economic issues… they don’t need to because they’ve almost always got the ear of the economic policymakers. That was not the case in 2008/2009. There was a large grass-roots conservative movement against the TARP bailout bill. CBS/NYTimes polled tea partiers (sorry, I don’t have the date, I .pdfed the article in May ’09) and found 79% opposed to TARP while only 56% of non-tea repubs opposed it. Repub legislatures who voted for TARP were 2.5 times more likely to be voted out in 2010 than were those who voted against it. NoWallStreetBailout.com, funded by the FreedomWorks conservative/Libertarian organization circulated a petition against the bill, here is a sample of petition signers’ comments:

“We’re MAD As Hell & We’re NOT going to take it ANYMORE! … RESTORE the AMERICAN WAY of LIFE!”—

“No Wall Street or auto bailouts! Maybe Americans should boycott paying 2008 federal income tax – no income tax revenue, no bailout.”

“This bailout could end up breaking the spirit that underlies the true American way. The key word is “RESPONSIBILITY!” WHERE IS IT?!

“This is outright stealing from the taxpayers! We’re socializing (government ownership or funding) every major industry of the economy. It’s immoral, bad economically and unconstitutional.”

“This bailout will destroy what remnants we have left of the free market economics, which have allowed this nation to become the worlds greatest economic power. It was precisely this kind of government interference that created a culture of recklessness within the financial Investments Industry that has led us to this national economic crisis. You do not have my consent (nor my future vote) to turn this nation into an economic dictatorship!”

“Our country will now be called, ‘THE UNITED SOCIALIST STATES OF AMERICA,’ if the government bails out and owns most of these failed companies.”

(I’ll be interested to see if that blockquote works! Edit: IT WORKS!! IT WORKS!!) This flailing rage never gelled into a cohesive movement because: 1) it wasn’t a raging against the banking system, or even against the banking practices, so much as a “let them reap the spoils of their foolish practices”, which didn’t happen — TARP passed; 2) conservatives would find it hard to sustain a grass-roots movement which opposed moneyed capitalism for ANY reason, as money and capitalism are both seen as sacred; and 3) as you so eloquently state, there was a much bigger bogeyman, as Barack Obama had just been elected President. This tapped a huge reservoir of bigotry against a virtual buffet of people and practices, and the rest is history.

A group of angry, socially active conservatives was an inviting target for the fundamentalists, and turning the economic rage of the rank and file into rage against “divergent” social groups deflected that anger away from conservative politicians and especiallyaway from banks and other moneyed interests. Frankly, a common bonding of the economic conservatives and the Occupy movement was very unlikely in this political climate — it’s not Russia in 1917, and we’re far from the kind of social unrest that puts those groups together in the streets. Still, when we stand up for what we believe in, sometimes we might be surprised who we’re standing next to.

dlouwe
dlouwe
4 years ago

@Alan

It does feel a bit weird to me sometimes, and I know that when on autopilot my brain will prefer using “he” or “she” over “they” in certain sorts of sentences (even when I’m trying to avoid it). Though after spending more time with people whose pronouns are “they” it has become more natural feeling and automatic, simply through regular use.

@Bina

And yes, “Heartiste” is a dude. I’ve seen his pictures.

Can we not assume peoples’ gender/pronouns based on appearance? Like, I don’t necessarily disagree that Heartiste is a dude, but it’s not because of what he looks like.

banned@4chan.org
banned@4chan.org
4 years ago

Wait, what? Martin Shkreli seriously offered to buy 4chan? I thought that was some kind of hoax when I first saw it.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
4 years ago

@Alan
Impersonal? No. Aberrant? Yes. More than likely, it’s just a matter of getting used to it…

Weird (not wired) Eddie
Weird (not wired) Eddie
4 years ago

Shkreli is worth maybe $50mill, plus hidden assets, minus attorney’s fees… anyone know what the Nishimura paid for it a couple years ago?

EJ (The Orphic Lizard)

I’m with Viscaria here. To quote tumblr, straight white boys dress like someone pressed “randomise Sim”, and it’s time that the authorities did something about it.

(Even if I’m one of those straight white badly-dressed boys.)

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ kupo, dlouwe & axe

I’ve had a nice walk through the lanes muttering various sentence combinations to myself and I’ve arrived at a working hypothesis.

I’m very used to both using and hearing ‘they’ used mainly as a plural pronoun. So I’m conditioned to associating it with groups. It’s therefore got connotations of collective.

When used as a singular pronoun therefore there’s still that collective association. So it feels like you’re negating a person’s individuality. Thus it feels a bit dehumanising.

Doesn’t explain the exceptions but it’s just a hypothesis.

Re: clothing

Someone once said I dressed like I was trying to go undercover in Muggle society. I liked that.

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
4 years ago

Digging through the twitters and sites, seems like the current 4chan guy has turned down Shkreli’s offer to join the board. Impossible to be sure either way of course. Opinion of the channers is split 50-50, with the /pol/ doods cheering on Shkreli, and everyone else bein all “o no end of world” and “don’t sell to Shkreli”. Which is about what I suspected. So, the chans are hurting for money, and we may see a split, with the racist shitheads being forcefully ejected into a new space and the rest being able to talk about video games and anime and stuff without them. Which is good! I betcha there could be a mass evacuation to, like, Stormfront if that happens, plus it’s likely that they’ll put together an imageboard of their own. Here’s betting that it’ll be, like, 1488chan or something awful.

Does anyone else find the ‘they’ (singular) pronoun feels a bit impersonal at times?

@Alan, yeah, I find that at times. It’s likely just unfamiliarity giving a sense of archaic, formal structure, as has already been said.

I’ve been told before that I just needed a relationship to “fix” me. I did not need one, could not emotionally handle one, and it caused me a lot of extra pain having to constantly answer questions about why I wasn’t ready for a relationship at that time. It’s extremely patronizing to assume that you know what’s best for someone when it comes to relationships.

@kupo, sounds like every family gathering I’ve ever been to! I still struggle with feeling like I’m flawed or broken for not being in a relationship, and I dread visiting relatives for just that reason.

The principle of charity can let you down sometimes. Fascists don’t want good outcomes for you, or for me. They want good outcomes for cishet christian (usually) white men, and they want everyone else dead or enslaved.

Mm. I’m not sure if you’re following me on the principle of charity thing. The principle of charity isn’t about being charitable, it’s about interpreting the opposing idea in as strong a form as possible. It’s an assumption of reasonableness. (Of course, it’s highly likely that they don’t actually hold the idea for good reasons, but that’s irrelevant to the argument). Forming their reason as “because I want to crush people who aren’t like me” isn’t giving the argument the strongest form.

It’s a lot of intellectual faff and nonsense, of course – at the end of the day it doesn’t matter what their motivations are, they’re still horrible fascist assholes (Though I’m sorta putting this lens on a broad range of conservatives here, not just the fascists). This whole exercise isn’t to excuse them, it’s to figure out where their perspective differs from ours, in what direction, by how much.

They’re such a weird, violent, shitty puzzle, aren’t they?

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
4 years ago

@Alan : in french, using the plural pronoun instead of the singular one is overall a way to distanciate and show respect over people with a better social status. So I am with you in that “they” feel distancing, even if for me it’s by association.

(side note : in french, there is a plural masculine form and a plural feminine form, who is used *only* if all the element in the set are female. I have seen some discussions of people who want to change that rule to “use the gender most common in the set”, which cause trouble when you don’t actually know the gender of everyone ; and some other who tried to create an hybrid term, which have the problem of feeling unnatural, and usually – there is some variation – being unpronunceable or an homonym of something else entirely. I don’t know any solution that I truly like for that problem in french, so you english speakers are officially authorized to feel relieved to have such an easy solution)

In a vacuum, I kind of prefer to change the structure of a sentence to use “neutral” pronoun if it can remove pronouns, but that bring its own set of problem, mostly not alway being very natural. But I guess “they” is good enough.

Since I am not a linguist, I can’t say if plural for distanciation is a common trend across language.

More close to the topic : I feel that the economic grievance of the republican conservative base (*not* the alt right, but the empoverished working white class) are legitimate. But they campaign for things that rather obviously won’t improve things for them !

And, of course, them having real economic grievance don’t give them carte blanche to be racist assholes. The white working class is throwing a tantrum, and I feel annoyed at the thought that this tantrum may very well work. For them and only them, that is.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
4 years ago

There’s another option to gender-neutral pronouns: use nouns and names instead. Yes, it feels a little stilted and weird at first, but you get used to it pretty quickly. People who don’t want to refer to God as a gendered being just replace all instances of “He” with “God” and somehow get along fine, so I don’t know any reason why anyone else can’t do that as a general rule.

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
4 years ago

More close to the topic : I feel that the economic grievance of the republican conservative base (*not* the alt right, but the empoverished working white class) are legitimate. But they campaign for things that rather obviously won’t improve things for them !

@Ohlmann, exactly! They’re legitimate, and the thing is, they aren’t stupid! It’s easy to say “Oh, they’re just being misled”, but who’s to say that they’re being more misled than I am? If they are especially vulnerable to being misled, why? What’s that vulnerability? There are so many good questions to ask about why they seem to act against their own best interests. It’s really fertile ground.

MissEB47 (Resident Rainbow Lorikeet and Beak Typist)
MissEB47 (Resident Rainbow Lorikeet and Beak Typist)
4 years ago

Anne Lewis, Jib Creatr

“Adidas: All Day I Dream About Skyrim”

Yay! I love Skyrim! 😊

“ETA: Yes there are mods that add sneakers to the game.”

That doesn’t surprise me at all. There is a mod of everything.

OoglyBoggles
OoglyBoggles
4 years ago

@Scildfreja Unnýðnes
They’ll never go back to Something Awful, the moderation is too strict and the mods don’t take well to casual bigotry.

Now on the subject of whether or not for 4chan to change hands, eh cut the rotting mold from the batch. Let the con man who profits off people’s medical ailments pair up with the fascists, I see no problem with that.

Weird (not wired) Eddie
Weird (not wired) Eddie
4 years ago

More close to the topic : I feel that the economic grievance of the republican conservative base (*not* the alt right, but the empoverished working white class) are legitimate. But they campaign for things that rather obviously won’t improve things for them

I’m in Kansas where the impoverished white working class grieves for the state of the state budget and for the finances of the schools and repeatedly reelects the people who torpedoed both… what can I say?

Weatherwax
Weatherwax
4 years ago

On the subject of fe/male pronouns, as I may have mentioned before, I went to an Oxford college which was women-only, but went mixed after I left (all the Gaudy Night fans in the house say “chessmen!”).

Up until my year, a graduate was an alumna (collectively, alumnae). I thought the college missed a major trick in not sticking to that nomenclature. But no. Apparently I’m now a member (alumnus) of the alumni, because one alumnus was added to the group. It’s even more annoying that the wider society ALMOST gets it right by accident. People who haven’t studied Latin tend to pronounce alumni “alum – n – eye”, which is actually how alumnae is correctly pronounced. Alumni should be “alum-n-ee”. Oh well…

We also had a lovely banner saying “Liberty, Equality, Sorority”. I wonder where it’s gone.

Diptych
Diptych
4 years ago

Chessmen!

Dalillama
4 years ago

@Scildfreja

Forming their reason as “because I want to crush people who aren’t like me” isn’t giving the argument the strongest form.

That’s the thing, it is. Literally their entire position is ‘If those uppity [slurs] would learn their place, everything would be peachy again.’ You’re looking for a stronger argument that simply isn’t there.

Skiriki
Skiriki
4 years ago

From my perspective?

“They” is perfectly fine; I believe the Great Bard Shakespeare used it as well. And “he” and “she” are a tad bizarre at times, why do you have to know a sapient’s gender (and how come there are only two options anyway) in order to talk about them? What’s in that gender which is so important like in 95% of the time?

(“They” and “she” are valid options for me, FYI; agender, but since I do jack and shit to my presentation besides dressing like someone who got stuck to black t-shirt era forrrreeeeeverrrr, I can take ‘she’ since it is not obvious on a glance. Now, handing me a baby “because women deal with babies, hold this for me for a while”, THAT will cause a protest…)

Weatherwax
Weatherwax
4 years ago

@ Diptych

Yay! Breaks my heart whenever I think about them.

What I love most, though (apart from the fact that Sayers clearly used Somerville as the template for her fictional Shrewsbury, as I can see in my mind’s eye every corner she describes), is that it’s a mid-thirties description of how Nazi Germany is being perceived, which robs it of any 20:20 hindsight allegations (for good or ill; the casual anti-semitism is wince-inducing, but all the more authentic for it).

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
4 years ago

Chessmen!

(“I loved them, and you gave them to me.”)

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ ohlmann

Ah yes, the whole ‘tu/vu’ thing. I understand there’s a similar thing in German.

@ POM

Yeah, I can see that. Although then theres that almost verbal tick thing. Ah well, if we can transition from thee thou thy I’m sure we’ll eventually suss this one.

kupo
kupo
4 years ago

Now, handing me a baby “because women deal with babies, hold this for me for a while”, THAT will cause a protest…

Agreed 100%. I get a lot of pushback from my mother on that whenever a new baby is born, even when I’m sick and don’t want to get the germs on the baby, but thankfully the mothers don’t force me and she can’t really do much beyond roll her eyes and/or pout. I don’t like babies.

Diptych
Diptych
4 years ago

@Weatherwax

It’s such a perfect picture of the pre-war intellectual set. Varying positions on feminism – from the Dean’s magnanimity to Miss Hillyard’s crusading anti-femininity; varying stripes of classism, even (perhaps especially) by the protagonists; general agreement as to the benefits of eugenics; little deliberate racism, but certainly a massive tonal discord for modern readers; and, generally, wonderfully written and full of insight.

Re: pronouns: certainly, the singular “they” is linguistically sound and well-supported, and I feel fairly confident using it in everyday conversation… but I feel have that slight sense of impersonality, which leads me to be happy to use “he” or “she” for myself but hesitate over “they”. Funny, innit?

Monzach
Monzach
4 years ago

Re: The pronoun discussion

I think it would be a good thing if more languages were like Finnish (or Estonian) in that the third person singular is non-gendered. We just have the one “hän” that serves all genders equally. There’s also “se” which is nominally used only for non-human creatures or non-living things, although it’s used for people as well in colloquial speech.

This has been your linguistics lesson for today. 😀

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
4 years ago

‘They’ is a little weird but not too hard to say. I already say ‘him’ and ’em’ similarly, so that’s not an issue. Reflexive case is the thing that gets me tho. Everything in my being rejects ‘themselves’ as singular, leaving ‘themself’. That’s not even a word. Rock and a hard place, ya know? Luckily, reflexive case is avoidable in most situations, so I scarcely hafta use it

Re: mad white people (not getting at anyone here. Venting generally)
They can have a seat. I’m so sick and tired of the white middle/working class and people tryna understand them. Fuck em. You’re not special. Any grievance you have, somebody else, white or otherwise, will be able to discuss it just as well as you. Preferably somebody who isn’t supporting a fascist for President. And what even are these grievances? What’re the unique challenges faced by the white middle class? Not rhetorical

And that gets to the bigger point. The white middle class is taken seriously while everyone else’s issues are diminished. Black people hafta start a fuckin movement in order to get people talking about how cop killings are maybe a bad thing. Meanwhile, Chet from Iowa and Linda from Nevada are separately, nebulously incensed at ‘the establishment’, and everybody’s lining up to solve their problems

And of course, they’ll go on and on about making the country ‘great again’ and how everything’s worse than it was. Yadda yadda, dogwhistle dogwhistle. They don’t feel like they have a voice, so they’ll elect as their voice a person who’ll take away everyone else’s voice. Like I said. Fuck em. They’re human beings, Murican citizens no less, and a lot are seriously suffering. But as far as I’m concerned, as soon as you throw everyone else under the bus like that, you can take a number and go all they way to the back of the fuckin line. We’ll get to your grievances. Eventually…

Handsome "Punkle Stan" Jack

RE: Pronouns

I think it would be a good thing if more languages were like Finnish (or Estonian) in that the third person singular is non-gendered.

They is singular.

People use the singular they all the time in conversation and don’t notice it.

Podkayne Lives
Podkayne Lives
4 years ago

What does ‘shiv-right’ mean? I’d Google it but I’m scared.

Also, I started to take Heartiste’s hot girl test, but then I was supposed to do shit like measure for a hip to waist ratio, and I decided I didn’t care that much about accurate results. I’m doing laundry and writing a history test instead.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ Axe

We’ll get to your grievances. Eventually…

I think perhaps Trump is exploiting the fundamental selfishness of panicking human beings; and feeding/creating that panic.

To adopt a crude analogy: imaging a rescue team is adopting a triage system and evacuating the people with the most severe cases of hypothermia first. They say “don’t worry we’ll get to everyone eventually”.

Trump is the guy yelling that the ship is sinking and there aren’t enough lifeboats to go around. He’s then saying ‘follow me and I’ll push our way to the front of the queue’ (and fuck those other people who don’t really have hypothermia, shouldn’t have been allowed on the ship in the first place, don’t appreciate you’re a bit chilly yourself etc.)

An unscrupulous tactic; but history shows it can be effective if you can convince enough people that they won’t get a place in a lifeboat before its too late.

The calm sensible person saying there’s room enough for everyone can get drowned out in such circumstances.

contrapangloss
contrapangloss
4 years ago

Funny story about the singular they:

In my brief stint as Writing Center Coordinator* I once got a blistering reply from one of the English faculty for daring to use “they” as a singular pronoun to ensure tutor/student confidentiality.

Two weeks later, that particular English faculty member posted a link to a Washington Post article about how they were officially transitioning to a singular they as a gender neutral pronoun and all the English faculty seemed pretty excited about it.

I felt secretly vindicated.

English is bizarre and confusing, and the singular they is awesome.

*I was a Math Specialist but we lost our Writing Specialists and the new one wasn’t hired yet so they were like “CONTRAPANGLOSS! You wrote papers as an undergrad! Manage the Writing Studio for us!”

You can guess how well that worked. I was extremely happy when a real writing specialist was hired.

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
4 years ago

Handsome Jack is entirely correct, as usual.

Diptych
Diptych
4 years ago

I took Monzach’s remarks to mean, not that English has no non-gendered third person singular, but that English might be better off if it only had non-gendered third-person singulars. Which, I suspect, is true.

Dalillama
4 years ago

@Axe

Re: mad white people (not getting at anyone here. Venting generally)
They can have a seat. I’m so sick and tired of the white middle/working class and people tryna understand them. Fuck em. You’re not special. Any grievance you have, somebody else, white or otherwise, will be able to discuss it just as well as you. Preferably somebody who isn’t supporting a fascist for President.

This, this right here.

And what even are these grievances? What’re the unique challenges faced by the white middle class? Not rhetorical

The only one I can think of is being racist scum. Not joking. If the white middle and working class could get over that one, they’d be sitting pretty.

But as far as I’m concerned, as soon as you throw everyone else under the bus like that, you can take a number and go all they way to the back of the fuckin line. We’ll get to your grievances.

That’s the thing, BLM is addressing their damn grievances. Their platform explicitly addresses economic justice, and all the things they propose would help the white working class too.

Diptych
Diptych
4 years ago

And what even are these grievances? What’re the unique challenges faced by the white middle class? Not rhetorical

The only one I can think of is being racist scum. Not joking. If the white middle and working class could get over that one, they’d be sitting pretty.

Seriously. “An aggrieved sense of entitlement” technically counts as a unique challenge, but, well, there’s one solution and it’s not one any outside person can provide.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
4 years ago

@Ohlmann, exactly! They’re legitimate, and the thing is, they aren’t stupid! It’s easy to say “Oh, they’re just being misled”, but who’s to say that they’re being more misled than I am? If they are especially vulnerable to being misled, why? What’s that vulnerability? There are so many good questions to ask about why they seem to act against their own best interests. It’s really fertile ground.

I’m not Ohlmann, but you’re describing the radical conception of power. For myself, I concede that it could be a useful framework and it probably does happen, but for any given supposed example I tend to be very skeptical of it. I am inclined to always think that any individual is the #1 expert on what is in that person’s best interest, and that that person will operate to achieve that to the best of their ability. If we think that someone is operating against their own best interest, the question we really need to ask ourselves is why we think that we know that person’s best interest better than the person does.

This is not to diminish the power, per se, of power, but I think the Foucaultean framework of structural power is a less problematic one than the radical conception of power. Foucault’s conception of power allows for people to operate in their own best interests to the best of their abilities, while still acknowledging that the ultimate results can wind up turned around backward.

Handsome "Punkle Stan" Jack

I took Monzach’s remarks to mean, not that English has no non-gendered third person singular, but that English might be better off if it only had non-gendered third-person singulars. Which, I suspect, is true.

You is also plural.

Joekster-betas bearded, sheeple shamed, dragons derailed. Reasonable rates.
Joekster-betas bearded, sheeple shamed, dragons derailed. Reasonable rates.
4 years ago

Interesting chat about trump supporters. I do find it odd that many of trump’s supporters are people who feel like they’ve ‘lost out’ in the current economy, and that many of those actually have. Lost their jobs, houses, whatever.

The odd thing is, these are the very people that trump intends to leave high and dry if trump wins.

@PoM: I’m not even a novice to frameworks of structural power. Do you have a good link to the cliffnotes version of foucaultean vs radical structures? If not, that’s cool. I’ll spend some time wading through Google.

Re. pronouns: I honestly try not to use pronouns when speaking of individual people, at least, since I found out this was an issue. It felt a bit clunky at first, but I’m starting to get comfortable with it. In fact, it helps me keep track of who, exactly, I’m referring to at any given moment.

@Eddie: I actually just moved to Kansas, and I was chatting with a psych therapist at one of the nursing homes I cover this morning, and the therapist told me that I should vote to keep the current state supreme court, because this particular court shanghaied the current Governor’s attempts to gut public education. Any truth to that? It sounds like one of many state issues I don’t have time to read up on before the election. Because I have to study for my Geriatrics boards on November 2nd. Grrr…

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
4 years ago

@PoM

I am inclined to always think that any individual is the #1 expert on what is in that person’s best interest, and that that person will operate to achieve that to the best of their ability. If we think that someone is operating against their own best interest, the question we really need to ask ourselves is why we think that we know that person’s best interest better than the person does

*applauds*

@Dali

The only one I can think of is being racist scum. Not joking

I got higher incidence of drug addiction and maybe something something farm stuff. Completely blank beyond that

Their platform explicitly addresses economic justice, and all the things they propose would help the white working class too

Key word. White people (but dudes mostly) aren’t “too”. Everyone else is supposed to be “too”. It’s not about solutions, it’s about their solutions. So long as they or someone like them thought of it for them, it’s OK. Ugh…

@Alan

I think perhaps Trump is exploiting the fundamental selfishness of panicking human beings; and feeding/creating that panic

Yep. And your ‘punishment’ for going along with that panic is the back of the fuckin line

The calm sensible person saying there’s room enough for everyone can get drowned out in such circumstances

I see what you did thar 😀

@Diptych

An aggrieved sense of entitlement

I shall use this phrase henceforth. Thankee kindly 🙂

Diptych
Diptych
4 years ago

You is also plural.

I think you’ll find that the plural of “you” is “youze”.

I shall use this phrase henceforth. Thankee kindly 🙂

Delighted to oblige!

Podkayne Lives
Podkayne Lives
4 years ago

Also, I suspect that the reason that the singular they seems distancing is at least in part that English speakers have long used it to indicate ‘person I don’t have enough information about to determine a gender for’. So saying ‘Someone called from the bank? Did they leave a message?’ sounds natural, and so does ‘If someone slips and falls on that ice they’ll probably sue’. But ‘we worked with Amelia on the last project and they were awesome. They walked us through every step.’ sounds odd, because if you had such a great frickin’ experience with Amelia, how come you don’t know if Amelia is a guy or a gal?

That will change, I imagine. I’m old enough to remember when calling one man another’s husband sounded weird in liberal circles, and now it doesn’t. Language changes pretty fast.

Dalillama
4 years ago

@Axe

I got higher incidence of drug addiction and maybe something something farm stuff.

I think you got something with the drugs, but shit farm policy is definitely not just a white people problem.

Key word. White people (but dudes mostly) aren’t “too”. Everyone else is supposed to be “too”. It’s not about solutions, it’s about their solutions

Like I said; if white people could just get over being such racist shitheads, we’d all be doing a damn sight better.
@Alan

Trump is the guy yelling that the ship is sinking and there aren’t enough lifeboats to go around.

Trump and his friends are the ones who blew a hole in the damn hull in the first place, and I have neither patience nor sympathy for anyone who wants to follow his advice now.

Catalpa
Catalpa
4 years ago

@Alan

Ah yes, the whole ‘tu/vu’ thing.

It’s ‘vous’, not ‘vu’. /nitpick

Having a familiar/formal (and singular/plural) split in second person words is pretty common in a bunch of languages. Du and sie, in German, tú and vos in Spanish, etc. English actually has a familiar(/singular) second person word too. It’s ‘thou’. It’s just been phased out of our language and sounds incredibly archaic now.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
4 years ago

@Podkayne

if you had such a great frickin’ experience with Amelia, how come you don’t know if Amelia is a guy or a gal?

That’s some food for thought…

@Dali
Agreed on both points 🙂

Penny Psmith
Penny Psmith
4 years ago

Re: pronouns

Oh you lucky lucky bastards, who only have to deal with third person prounouns and occasionally an old relic of a gendered word.
Even in a language like French, which is more gendered than English, you still have second person as neutral, and the verb forms tend to be the same for male and female.
Semitic languages, though? Nope nope nopity nope. (Specifically speaking here of Hebrew and Arabic, being the ones I know, although I think the general rules apply to others as well.)
Wanna say “you”? You have to choose if it’s את (“att”, feminine) or אתה (“atta”, masculine). Wanna choose the plural instead? Sure, pick אתם (“attem”, m.pl.) or אתן (“atten”, f.pl.) and so on.
And verbs are gendered, as well; even our “neutral” (the equivalent to “one does”, or the more modern “you do”) is usually based on the masculine plural present participle. You can’t win.
The only places where you can bypass that are first person singular/plural (but only in past or future tenses, because our present tense is the participle so you have to choose again between אני כותב [“ani kotev”, I write / am writing, m.] or אני כותבת [“ani kotevet”, same, f.]) and, in a way, the third person plural forms (past/future/imperative tenses only, again because of the participle), which is technically the masculine form but has been used for both male and female since a very early time – so much so that in past tense, third person plural doesn’t even have a feminine form (other tenses have a feminine form which tends to sound more archaic). The latter is only true for Hebrew; as far as I know, Arabic does still make that distinction, although that might be different in different dialects.
And even then, it’s kind of a crappy solution, because you’re still using the male as default, and erasing the feminine. It isn’t a truly neutral form.

Some activists have taken to using the feminine form as default, in protest, and to try and change what looks “natural”. I still can’t get myself to do that, even though I appreciate what they’re doing.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
4 years ago

@Axe : the extra super duper annoying part with the grievance of the white is that they sure make a good job at looking like a ticking fascist bomb if we don’t take care of their problem. I hope to be wrong on that -_-