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Clinton-Trump Debate Open Thread

The Donald, no doubt saying something truly awful
The Donald, no doubt saying something truly awful

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It’s Debate Night here in the USA. The debate proper starts at 9 PM Eastern, but you can start talking, yelling, whatever right now and for as long as you want. Should this be a no-trolls thread? Yeah, let’s make it a no-trolls thread. And no Trump supporters, obviously.

I will be live-screaming the debate here in my apartment. If you’re outside my window, enjoy!

Here is another pledge week capybara for you all. Two of them, actually, with some hot capybara-on-capybara action:

Sleepy Capybara says: Donate!
Sleepy Capybara says: Donate!

 

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PeeVee the Sarcastic
PeeVee the Sarcastic
4 years ago

Bloviating is thirsty work, Kat.

Tessa
Tessa
4 years ago

Things I noticed… he compained about hurtful ads, but the ads I’ve seen have been playing things he said and making you imagine children watching him… or asking others to say stuff he said out loud.

Also… was he bragging about exploiting laws to stiff workers??

Kereea
Kereea
4 years ago

Over on Jezebel’s Slot someone posted a screencap from 4chan in the coments. They’re already calling Trump a cuck and pining for Ron Paul. WOW was that a fast fall from grace.

David, that might be a fun thing to cover: the alt right’s reaction to him not being able to crush Hillary (sure some will say he did anyway but others aren’t)

Lea
Lea
4 years ago

He bragged that he doesn’t pay his taxes.

In a presidential debate.

Then the man calling women pigs and Mexicas rapists said his feelings were hurt by a commercial that literally just plays his actual voice saying things he actually said
It hurt his feelings.
That happened.

2016 is a fever dream come to life.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
4 years ago

Re: Trump drug use talk
Is that OK? I’m thinking that’s not OK. Am I being oversensitive about this? I mean, I get it. Rich, white, financier type, and there’s a lot of powder in those circles. And he’s a shit, so fuck him. I dunno, it seems wrong anyway. Makes me squirm

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
4 years ago

@Axecalibur

Yeah, it’s not cool.

EDIT: I mean, I definitely think it’s funny that Howard Dean would say something like that. But funny does not equal right.

Leftwingfox
Leftwingfox
4 years ago

Axecalibur: I want a drug test. Have him pee into a cup.

I think it’s fair that both candidates pee into a cup. That should clear it up once and for all.

Ooglyboggles
4 years ago

I’m not sure my brain can handle 3 more “debates” like these.

weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo

I think it’s more like when people make a “go home, you’re drunk” joke. It’s not as much speculating on whether or not he’s drug user as much as it’s highlighting that is behavior was uncontrolled.

Snowberry
Snowberry
4 years ago

Sooo… damn. I’m not sure what to say, really. [Edit: I meant I had no idea what I was going to say as I started to write this.] It turned into a bunch of personal attacks. I was kind of hoping that Hillary would stay above that and find a way to turn things back on him less directly. But at least her composure only slightly cracked a few times, while his broke several times. Often badly.

It was funny how he kept interrupting with “wrong!” though. Funny in the “OMG, what a dumbass clown” way.

Trump had a point about trade deals often damaging every country involved. Though I’m not sure if his way of making that point was factually correct (I’d have to do research first). And almost sort of had a point about personal attacks – while hypocritically engaging in them. I think he’s mad because some of the Clinton campaign’s ads hit him where it hurts (personally, not necessarily electorally). Everything else he said was just wrongheaded and inaccurate as hell.

Well, except maybe one thing that I’m not sure about. Wasn’t paying much attention during the 2008 primaries, was Clinton being racist towards Obama back then? But even if that was a point, there’s no evidence of her being openly racist now, while Trump currently has a racism problem. So he’s not in a good place to be pointing fingers, even if it were true.

Holt was not prepared for Trump’s ego. He really should have been, it’s not like that’s an unknown quantity. (Subtle pun intended.)

One of the CBS commenters said that the general debate is better at showing how the candidate would actually govern than the primary debates do. That is not always true.

I’ll be frank – I still don’t like some of Hillary’s economic and military policies. But since the alternative appears to be 10 times worse and held together by fairy dust, well…

The final question, about whether they would accept losing gracefully… Hillary didn’t answer it directly, but it sounded like a reluctant “yes”. Donald didn’t answer the question at all, but the tone of his response seemed like a “hell no!”

weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo

We’ll see what happens, but there’s indications that some of Trump’s troll supporters are turning on him.

https://twitter.com/oneunderscore__/status/780585273453346816

LO fucking L

Ooglyboggles
4 years ago

@Snowberry
Same sentiments here, maybe we’ll find Trump Revolution in the papers and then finally we can say “well, I guess we’ve seen everything.”

Honestly at this point a call for revolution doesn’t seem too far fetched with Trump at this point.
@WWTH
MEME MAGIIIIIIIIIIIIIC, where is your god now /pol/? Where? Where is your train? “Your time is now?”

You’re time is nao

ur tiem is nao

It’s so damn hilarous, I’d almost unblock my racist friend just to rub it in his face.

Tessa
Tessa
4 years ago

Snowberry:re:clinton vs obama,
on cnn, they played the clip with wolf blitzer trump mentioned, and the person he was talking about said a staffer in iowa forwarded an email about obama being muslim, and they fired the person and apologized to obama’s campaign.

So a far cry from her saying she sent someone overseas as trump said.

chesselwitt
chesselwitt
4 years ago

@Lea

Then the man calling women pigs and Mexicas rapists said his feelings were hurt by a commercial that literally just plays his actual voice saying things he actually said
It hurt his feelings.
That happened.

2016 is a fever dream come to life.

Who is he, Bobby Newport? (I’m sorry, that’s unfair to fictional characters to compare them to Drumpf.)

Holt did a terrible job moderating. He had absolutely no control over the debate.

My favorite part was when Trump said he had a great temperament and the audience broke out in disbelieving laughter.

Ooglyboggles
4 years ago

I can’t believe that five pages in and not a single drive by troll desperately trying to defend Trump’s pathetic excuse of a speech.

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
4 years ago

Oh Jebus. I went to /pol/ and browsed some. They’re basically giving up on Trump. Seems like the majority of /pol/ trolls are tired of the whole thing now, and bored with The Donald. He fucked up bad tonight, as expected.

weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo

Ooglyboggles,

It’s a no troll thread. I’m sure there’s one or two who tried to post and weren’t allowed through moderation. I’m sure there’ll be some reaction posts tomorrow and we’ll get a light troll snack there.

The trolls are sad tonight though. From the little bit of the comment sections at Jezebel that I checked, they seemed lackluster. One just went on a tangent on how the employees at Jezebel didn’t deserve to join a union because they had biased coverage. Yeah, I don’t know either.

Ooglyboggles
4 years ago

@IP
Oh it’s a riot to see them go round and round in pathetic circles, I don’t care if it makes me sound like a bad person, I love vindication, especially when it’s with fools like them.

Okay, I promised to post pics, and now I shall. I am in a really, really good mood tonight, and I just could dance and sing, but that would be disruptive to my roommates, so I’ll just dance and sing later.
@WWTH
I sure hope so, I am so looking forward to the minute where Trump goes completely desperate and then just explodes into red hot fury when he feels like there is no chance of ever becoming president. Hey it’s not like I’m crushing anyone beneath my heels, just me enjoying the schadenfreude.

http://i.imgur.com/DQUERbo.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/gKsCYlh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/foaCQdg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Hc2BCOx.gif
http://67.media.tumblr.com/73610ef3fd4adfdccd9a5a872f5c1d68/tumblr_o87jshBH3A1tdi5cko1_500.gifcomment imagecomment image
http://i.imgur.com/3zQJ3yC.mp4

LindsayIrene
4 years ago

“Woo!”

comment image

Dalillama
4 years ago

@PoM

Doofus, the Fraternal Order of Police didn’t endorse you today, it was like 2 weeks ago.

eta: It’s the union that endorsed him. Not ICE. What a fucking dumbass.

Probably nobody here is more pro-union than I am, but both of these organizations need to be abolished immediately. If cops want a union, they can start behaving well enough that the SEIU will let them in with the rest of the unionized government workers.

Kat
Kat
4 years ago

I see Hillary has come dressed in the blood of men who have underestimated her.

Sady Doyle, Twitter

Best Hillary quote ever?!

Best quote ever?!

banned@4chan.org
banned@4chan.org
4 years ago

1am and I’m still not over Trump asking why China can’t do us a solid and go to war with North Korea.

PS: @Scildfreja holy shit, you had a bad day.

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
4 years ago

I had a sorta bad day, yes. Thank you <3 Tomorrow will be better. (because i have sleepy-time drugs!)

Trump is a train wreck, but i dunno how this will affect his numbers. I'm really looking forward to seeing the polls. If this doesn't hurt him, we in trouble folks.

Jaygee
Jaygee
4 years ago

I’m not sure if I can handle listening to Trump for an extended period of time. I’ve been able to avoid hearing him for most of this election cycle.

Anyway, I read the preliminary transcript at NPR’s site. Not perfectly transcribed, but good enough. I’ll post it here for those who want to read it: http://www.npr.org/2016/09/26/495115346/fact-check-first-presidential-debate

Podkayne Lives (Hairless Marsupial Gutter Nun)
Podkayne Lives (Hairless Marsupial Gutter Nun)
4 years ago

@banned

Yeah, that took me aback too. China needs to invade North Korea! declares a US presidential candidate.

Thank you Donald. Good idea.

I thought Hillary brought her A game. She can’t be someone she’s not, but her knowledge is thorough, and her cool can’t be beat. She looked great.

I am deeply curious about what the whole story is about the beauty pageant contestant Hillary brought up. He almost broke there. Something about her bringing that up spooked him.

I hoped he’d melt down completely, so that was disappointing. He didn’t do that badly, once again given who we’re talking about.

Snowberry
Snowberry
4 years ago

Oh yeah, assuming he wasn’t just jumping all over the place with unconnected thoughts, at one point he implied that he knows taxes are too high because US airports aren’t fancy enough. That struck me as particularly weird.

Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
4 years ago

Wow. I watched earlier, and it was really something. For this one, I have to quote Todd after BoJack’s troops debacle:
“Well, that went slightly better than the worst it could’ve possibly gone, so… hooray?”
(last 9 or so seconds of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPwA6hAXVpQ)

Dalillama
4 years ago

@Snowberry

Oh yeah, assuming he wasn’t just jumping all over the place with unconnected thoughts, at one point he implied that he knows taxes are too high because US airports aren’t fancy enough

This is the level of deliberate ignorance we are dealing with. A man who has spent a lifetime in corporate finance, a man who is seeking the most powerful office in the country, apparently does not know that airports are not private enterprises, and are, in fact, built with tax money.

mildlymagnificent
mildlymagnificent
4 years ago

By the way. I missed the debate – granddaughter’s swimming lesson took precedence – but I’ve read all your comments and the NPR transcript.

I’ve also read the Time magazine reports – and I’m linking the “Vote Now” page. You’ll realise why when you vote and see how others have voted.

There are a lot of weird people in the world.

Snowberry
Snowberry
4 years ago

a man who is seeking the most powerful office in the country, apparently does not know that airports are not private enterprises, and are, in fact, built with tax money.

It was under the context of trickle-down economics raising revenues. Something along the lines of China and the UAE having better airports, so that’s evidence the US is becoming a third world country. This is the fault of politicians raising taxes too much. I think. At that point, a lot of what he said was barely coherent. Probably that wasn’t meant to imply that airports are private enterprises, but I’d need to rewatch or read a transcript to be sure.

Leo
Leo
4 years ago

@Ooglyboggles
Really don’t find the last Gifs cute, it looks like the cat (a predator, so this is creating more stress for the chicks) is on top of some of those chicks and they’re tight packed anyway. They may be simply going to be transported but their welfare doesn’t seem paramount, or they may be the male chicks before they’re killed. Reminder why I’m moving from vegetarianism towards veganism, but also really triggering (in the proper sense of being genuinely anxiety provoking), I can’t watch videos showing animal cruelty in the farming industry and know even non-vegetarians can find it upsetting.

mildlymagnificent
mildlymagnificent
4 years ago
Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

One question they usually ask here in debates is “what do you think is the most admirable thing about your opponent?”*

I’d like to have seen that one.

(* During our last election Cameron and Milliband were so sweet about each other I almost snuffled)

Skiriki
Skiriki
4 years ago

I find it pretty astonishing that there are media reports (including supposedly reputable media companies) of Clinton being “over-prepared”. What the fucking fuck. One cannot be over-prepared if they plan to be a president!

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
4 years ago

Something along the lines of China and the UAE having better airports, so that’s evidence the US is becoming a third world country. This is the fault of politicians raising taxes too much. I think. At that point, a lot of what he said was barely coherent.

Fun fact: in the 1800s, trickle-down economics were known as horse-and-sparrow economics. The analogy was that if you stuff a horse with enough oats, it will shit some out for the sparrows by the side of the road to eat. This analogy was provided by opponents, obviously, but it’s an apt one: a horse’s digestive system doesn’t work that way, and even if it did, yuckers.

And, of course, there are much more efficient ways to feed sparrows if that is your actual objective, ones that require far reduced expenditure in oats.

The idea that lowering taxes raises revenues is literally something a guy once drew on the back of a napkin, which has become conservative dogma despite zero evidence that it has ever actually worked at any time in the US. It makes some intuitive sense if you think that people will work less hard if they aren’t able to take home enough of their income, but we all know that “makes intuitive sense” doesn’t equate to “works in reality.” The actual evidence is that the US tax structure has never been on the part of the curve that would have this effect, at any time that this effect has been sought. It is hypothetically possible that taxes could at some point be so high that lowering them would increase revenues, but never has there been evidence that this has been the case.

Reagan really liked this idea, because he had some experience with having millions in income subjected to a very high marginal tax rate, and apparently he held a grudge about that for the rest of his life. But evidence: he didn’t actually stop making movies until he enter politics. So the high marginal tax rate didn’t, in reality, reduce his productivity. It just annoyed him.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ POM

The idea that lowering taxes raises revenues is literally something a guy once drew on the back of a napkin

As you’ll know the actually substantive argument wasn’t much better.

“If you had to pay 100% tax would you bother working?”

“Erm, I guess not”

“So the government wouldn’t get anything in tax anyway?”

“I suppose so”

“See, just extrapolate from there”

(Honestly folks, that genuinely was the case used)

EJ (The Orphic Lizard)

I like my job. I’d do it even if we had the system Locke proposed in First Treatise (100% marginal taxation above a subsistence level.) I don’t work hard because I’m getting paid more; I work hard because I enjoy it. I acknowledge my privilege in being able to say this.

I would not have said the same about some of the jobs I’ve had in the past.

Whenever I’ve heard people say that high marginal tax rates decrease productivity, I’ve always reflected on this and thought that it meant that the people who’re saying it hate their jobs.

Mr Trump, why do you hate your job? What would you rather be doing? What is stopping you from doing it?

Skiriki
Skiriki
4 years ago

PoM: I hate to be that person…

…but actually, horse’s digestive system will pass through quite a lot of oat kernels, which were then feasted upon by sparrows. Decline in horse-based locomotion has caused a blow to house sparrow populations, on top of other complications and changes in lifestyle.

This is not unusual; Egyptian vultures feast on lion dung, since the big cats have inefficient digestive system as well (and why dogs find domestic cats’ poop so irresistible, too).

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

I can see why my mates in shitty low paying jobs hate paying tax; especially when they perceive* that they’re subsidising people who aren’t putting in the same effort they do.

That tends to fuel off the books cash in hand work though rather than a reduction in productivity. It probably doesnt make that much difference to the economy as they’re spending that cash rather than saving it so they’ll be paying VAT etc.

(* Not saying they’re correct in that perception. Things like the benefit cap though are far more popular with my poorer friends than my wealthier ones.)

reggie, the neighbour's cat
reggie, the neighbour's cat
4 years ago

Just in case you thought only the right wing US media and commentators repeat cretinous and ridiculous conspiracies about Hillary’s health: http://www.smh.com.au/world/us-election/2016-us-presidential-debate-ross-cameron-says-hillary-clinton-has-dementia-20160927-grpa91.html

Failed Australian politician Ross Cameron apparently thinks Hillary has dementia and that she wears pantsuits with long jackets to hide a colostomy bag.

Fun fact about this failed politician – he was Mr Christian family values and then got caught out having an affair and living with his mistress in Canberra while his pregnant wife sat at home in Sydney.

Kat
Kat
4 years ago

Hillary looked like she was having fun, right from the start.

Donald? He looked grim and angry, right from the start.

She laughed at him a few times, and he looked like he was having a hard time not laughing along with her.

A Rose for Emily
A Rose for Emily
4 years ago

Alan Robertshaw,

The mathematics is actually sound. It assumes without proof that tax revenue is a continuous function–I.e. loosely speaking, that it HAS a “graph”–and that revenue is a function of tax rate. Those are Laffer’s actual errors, but the assumptions are not bad in a “local” sense: very small shifts in tax rates, all else equal, can be modeled well this way. So you could also say that his error was to falsely extrapolate from local to global.

In any case, if a function is continuous, equals zero at X=0 and at X=100, and is positive somewhere between, then it’s mathematically provable that the maximum value does occur, and is found somewhere between 0 and 100. This statement is not debatable.

Laffer also misleadingly drew the graph as a single hump, though. It’s perfectly possible that there are multiple points at which a maximum is achieved. That sketch informs false conclusions: it leads you to suppose that if lowering taxes raises revenue, then the optimum rate must be less, and if raising taxes raises revenue, then the optimum rate must be more. If the graph has exactly one hump, that’s true. But there could be two humps, or fifty.

This type of analysis is done all the time to find the best price for something, but it only works for small perturbations.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ Skiriki & POM

What’s that posh coffee that’s been through some animal’s digestive systems first?

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ a rose for emily

So you could also say

Heh, you could probably say. I once demonstrated on this very site that I had trouble working out what 10% of a 100 was. 🙂

But thanks for the explanation. I remember when someone demonstrated his graph it seemed intuitively wrong but I wouldn’t be able to say why with mathematical proof. It just reminded me of that thing in The Simpsons

“And what if your family don’t like bread? What if they like, say, cigarettes?”

Skiriki
Skiriki
4 years ago
Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

They say satire died when Kissinger won the Nobel Peace Prize; but it is increasingly difficulty to tell satire from real news these days:

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ skiriki

Thanks; I’ll be adding that to my list of “Foods that were invented as the result of a drunken bet”.

reggie, the neighbour's cat
reggie, the neighbour's cat
4 years ago

@ Alan
It’s Kopi Luwak: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kopi_Luwak
Civets used to sometimes eat coffee cherries but they don’t digest them much. Someone made some coffee out of them, apparently it was good, and now there are cages of civets force fed coffee beans. So from happy accident to exploitation of animals.
So a pretty apt analogy for trickle down economics.

Edit: and I should refresh the page before writing an answer!

Weird (not wired) Eddie
Weird (not wired) Eddie
4 years ago

Any of you watch The WB network’s show “Supernatural”? This whole year is an episode come to life….

numerobis
numerobis
4 years ago

Scildfreja reminds me I have every animal I’ve ever hit or seen hit in my brain, pictured at the moment of impact. Thankfully it’s only a handful yet. But still, the feathers off that pigeon bouncing off the van in front of me on the overpass above CA-85 on El Camino midday in 2000 (seriously, that’s the level of detail I recall), the sickening smack of that small bird in northern NH this spring, the bump of slush right around a bend in the mountain road in PA shortly after the plough let me go first, which turned out to actually be a dead deer…

I guess that memory-forming trick opens up our brains’ ability to learn from serious error — but also to suffer PTSD?

I haven’t identified a mistake any human made in any of those events that I could avoid making, other than the very act of driving. Cars should be banned.