As longtime observers of the manosphere know all too well, it’s not always easy to draw a clear line between “pickup artistry” and “raping drunk women.”
That line seems to have been completely nonexistent when it came to the trio of pickup artists profiled in a long and horrifying Daily Beast piece by Brandy Zadrozny, with the self-explanatory title “Pickup Artists Preyed on Drunk Women, Brought Them Home, and Raped Them.”
The pickup artists in question apparently specialized in the highly Rooshian strategy of “hanging around outside of bars at closing time in hopes of meeting really, really drunk women.”
Here’s how Zadrozny describes the “pickup” that got the trio arrested:
When the bars closed for the night, Claire and Laura [not their real names] shuffled out with the rest of the crowd onto Fifth Avenue. They called an Uber, and as they waited, they were approached by two men, Jonas Dick and Alex Smith.
Jonas and Alex were no strangers to meeting girls on that street at that time: they referred to two in the morning as “pull o’clock” because of how easy it was to bring home the last women leaving the bars. They invited Claire and Laura to their place for drinks. It was only a few blocks away.
Renting an apartment only a couple of blocks from the bars, also a very Rooshian technique.
Claire says she doesn’t remember meeting Alex and Jonas. She remembers stumbling and someone with a receding hairline “pushing her along,” leading her to an apartment building. She remembers being in a semi-furnished bedroom on a mattress without a headboard. Someone giving her a clear drink. The sip she took didn’t taste like water, maybe it was alcohol? Before she could think about it, she was falling backwards, and that’s when she says it all goes black.
What occurred in that bedroom over the next hour runs in and out of Claire’s mind like waves. As she testified in court, she can feel the bed beneath her, coming to for a moment, and vomiting on the floor. She hears one—or is it two?—male voices, mumbling like the adults in “Charlie Brown” before it all fades away again.
It gets worse.
If you’re not up for reading a really long story full of graphic details of rape at the moment, Robyn Pennacchia at Wonkette provides a condensed, if also pretty graphic, version of the story here.
Fuck you Lt. Philips and your incompetent police force. The biggest challenge isn’t the victims memory, the biggest challenge is getting shithead cops to treat rape victims seriously. You know what would have helped immensely in your investigation? If the cops who dismissed these two women had instead completed a rape kit and started the investigation asap. Fuck you, and fuck every PUA douchbag who thinks it’s acceptable to pick up drunk women from the bar! You are shitstains upon humanity.
Hm I wonder why people are very distrustful of alot of police officers and don’t come out on sexual assaults, is it because often times these people don’t give a shit about women and anyone who remotely looks like a threat to his authority?
The prison time is too damn short for this trio of rat fucks. Any person who says that PUA’s aren’t rapists in training can go screw themselves with a Machineel.
I don’t know that it would phase these men who are obviously so far gone without conscience, but…
I’d really like for every other person in their families and social circles to know what kind of behavior these guys think is great fun to engage in.
Sick f*cks.
Whelp, no offense to David or the regular commentariat, but I’m going to bow out of this thread now and leave it at that.
This shit is too horrific to contemplate right now. I need happy thoughts.
Shit stains, indeed.
I’m with PI, that’s just too much :s
….As I get older, this seems to happen more and more often–or at least, it comes to my attention more often. At [NOT OUT OF COLLEGE YET], I have a lot more older to obtain.
I’mma just….post a link to a cool mashup as brain bleach.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/08/03/article-1203971-05EEE05F000005DC-611_964x684.jpg
But PUAs keep assuring us that it’s about “self improvement” and not rape and/or rapeyness that is in the gray area between rape and not rape. How could this be?
I think calico kitten brain bleach is needed.
And calico kitten with bonus ginger kitten and yellow lab brain bleach
http://img.pandawhale.com/22027-fYhO.gif
I read this earlier today and I haven’t been this mad in a long time. Just… the uselessness of the police involved. The utter uselessness. The fact that Pick Up Artists clearly aren’t selling dating advice, they’re selling a cult mentality that assuages the consciences of wannabe rapists. The fact that there are countless other victims out there. Jesus. Eight years in prison isn’t a harsh enough sentence for any of these worthless trash dumps. I would love to see more victims come forward. Maybe they can serve eight sentences per victim, instead.
For those who need happy thoughts, Pottermore has a patronus Finder game they just released. My patronus is a mongrel dog, I’m pretty pleased. (See one of my mongrels in the profile photo.)
Expecto patronum for anybody who needs it after reading the post.
Here’s the strongest brain bleach on the planet: MARU!
And as for these guys: May they fall naked on every last cactus.
ETA: Jonas Dick is the perfect name for this piece of shit.
Regular lurker, first time commenter..
I’ve never felt so mad and incredibly sad before in my life 🙁
It’s hard to find the saddest part of all this, but I was struck by the seemingly insignificant line about how many women excused themselves from the jury for knowing people who had been similarly raped.
And there’s no rape culture they say?
It has been 0 days since I felt murderous rage. This along with the Tiahleigh Palmer case makes me want to stay in bed
*Pukes*
I hate parents. Fuck em
8 years. Least it’s something
On to the next thread
I love this part:
Are you sure Jonas? Are you sure that “chicks” are freaking out about sleeping with you? Or could it be that the people you’ve raped are freaking out because you’ve decided to force yourself on them when they were inebriated and couldn’t properly resist?
Seriously buddy, have a good long think about this while you’re in jail.
… seconding Paradoxy and Scildfreja.
If you need me, I’ll be in my room shooting pixel space guns at pixel aliens or something.
it’s only a matter of time before women snap
only a matter of time
GAAAAAAAAAH
What did I just read
These accounts make me want to scream. I suppose it shouldn’t be surprising to see these accounts of rapists (excuse me, “PUA”) describing rape in utterly unrepentant terms and talking about how funny it is, but somehow it never fails to shock me.
I don’t know what to say about this. The worst thing about PUA culture is that in some ways it’s a natural outgrowth of prevailing cultural narratives, taken to an extreme. But when you look at its roots, you see how many prevalent cultural narratives are fundamentally rape culture all the way down.
We need to change the culture somehow. To an extent I think we even might be managing it; I do think there’s a lot more discussion and understanding of things like consent and rape culture than there were ten or fifteen years ago. But we’re not changing it fast enough, and reactionary misogyny is doubling down to reinforce the status quo. Something has to give, and soon.
Fuck everything.
Axecalibur
…I hate to spoil the mood, but I don’t think you meant to say “parents”. (I’ll presume that’s autocorrect.) “Police”? “PUAs”?
Good that at least Alex Smith got charged with rape. Scandalous and unacceptable that the police only got the collar because someone else did their detective work for them.
If cops were less obsessed with persecuting minorities, futilely attempting to clamp down on drug use, brutalizing protesters and shooting innocent people they might actually be able to devote more effort into catching bad people.
Kettle
Oooooh, now I get to play the troll game!
Lemme guess: you’re trying to imitate what you think a “radical feminist” would say, and provide fuel for another’s unintentionally hilarious or disappointingly tedious tirade!
Unfortunately, that sort of rhetoric seems to be exclusive to the strange depths of the manosphere. Oh, projection, the lovely and oddly buoyant mistress their ilk courts so often!
I’m unsure who this is a sock of, but the alias is quite fitting if the idiom is reversed – the kettle calling the pot black for some odd reason.
@Troubelle
Nope, I mean parents. I mean those people who write letter to judges asking for leniency, cos their sons couldn’t help it. Turner’s dad did it, this muffuga’s mom did it. Fuck parents. But I should be more specific. Fuck these parents. Misogynist black holes of shit, who care more about their child being able to eat steak than the people that child assaulted. My mom would beat me within an inch of my fuckin life. And she could pull it off too…
I’m not even mad at the rest. You’re right, i should be. But I only have so much rage to go around
Re: Kettle
Kettle showed up before in the ‘comedienne gets harassed’ thread (can’t remember the exact name). Not nice, but not a sock. I don’t think
@Axecalibur
Ahh. Apologies. Yes, it’s true that parents can be immensely horrible people, same as the rest of the population.
And I completely believe that your mother could beat the shit out of you, me, and everybody else.
Still. Autocorrect is the plague of many, and I thought it seemed a bit odd.
re: Kettle: Well, I do not understand this person very much. But I don’t understand a lot of people. Plus, someone had to get in on the action and this was my first time on vs. troll.
That sounds like a TV show of some kind.
@Kettle
Six thousand years of patriarchy and we haven’t snapped yet.
Most of us aren’t likely to go Clint Eastwood on others. Instead, we march, rally, make phone calls, organize committees, write letters, make banners, write books, talk to our friends, and so on.
Most of us prefer this approach. It means that the changes we make are real changes, involving hearts and minds, not just a shift in power.
My grandma taught me to snap string beans. Does that count?
@Michael Lindsay
Inorite!?
From the article:
Poor little lost Christian lamb from a ‘good,’ ‘hard-working’ family with values. He played varsity sports y’all! Those beautiful girls and beaches are so overwhelming.
It might be a typo, but it works for many of the statements of the parents of these rapists.
*shudder*
Edit: note to self: reload before reply
I know a few people who moved to California. They were not, to my knowledge transformed into rapists.
I’m gonna just comment on this part:
“He was overwhelmed with the pretty girls, beautiful beaches, outstanding weather, and all that is associated with California,”
Okay, no. That’s 10,000% bullshit. If anyone bothers to investigate the background of non-local rapists, then quite often one finds that they had a double life back wherever they originally lived that their family didn’t know about. And they were shitstains back then too. I can’t say if that it’s true in this case, but it was true about Brock Turner, to give a recent example.
Even if they did somehow dramatically change personalities due to a mere change of scenery or exposure to a moderately different culture – which is unlikely in the extreme – then that’s not an excuse for anything except maybe locking them up in a psych ward. I mean, it’s a serious problem if your base personality is capable of being overwritten with an evil one just because the weather’s nicer.
@Snowberry
I, uh….I don’t think that flies with the comments policy. Can I get a read on this? Ladies? Gents? Esteemed individuals of neither title?
Oops, I apologize. I wasn’t thinking that violated the comments policy because I wasn’t actually diagnosing anyone in particular, just implying that someone who wasn’t inherently a rapist could become one with just a change of scenery shouldn’t be allowed to freely walk the streets. Throwing them in jail seems worse, though, if it was a genuine psychological problem.
@Snowberry
I’m the newbie here, so I’m not sure, but it sounded awfully suspect. Plus, “psych ward” is kinda stigmatizing last I checked.
Plus, I really want to type things tonight for some reason.
Okay, I looked it up. Apparently the term I should have used was “psychiatric hospital”. Again, I apologize.
@Snowberry
Not a problem. It’s just kind of an itchy spot to me since several of my close friends have been in them for various periods of time.
They took the plea deals because the San Diego DA’s office agreed that none of them would be charged with any additional sexual assaults. They probably raped multiple people in that apartment, so they’re potentially avoiding really long prison sentences. At least they didn’t get county jail or suspended sentences.
I think the PUA stuff can turn ordinary guys into serial rapists. It encourages people to change their thinking so they don’t take consent seriously. Even the less extreme techniques assume that “yes” and “no” are gray areas. It’s not about teaching someone social skills or how to build rapport with people in a genuine relationship.
…i think i’ve said before that i was very VERY nearly raped at a party some years back, while NOT drunk (yes i’d been drinking, but i’d also gone to bed in a room set aside for me, while wearing full-length PJs, and was cold sober) and to the police saying “oh it’s REGRET”…FUCK THAT NOISE. I wish they could have seen me, on my stomach, fighting like hell to keep some asshole from raping me while I cant move my hands, screaming into a pillow for him to stop…but, you know, i was never penetrated and i had no injuries, so i’m sure it was just…regret sex ::lights the whole situation on fire with her mind like Eleven::
@Troubelle
You! You… Stop making me feel better *not quite smile emoji*
Stairs give her trouble, but she can swing them hands
That’s a tough road to walk. Trust me
@Snowberry
Probably not strictly a comments policy thing, but… It’s still sorta blaming rape on mental illness. That’s not cool. I get the caveats there, but I wouldn’t have said it anyway. Gets pretty close to that line, ya know?
I don’t know that it violates the comments policy per se. However, the comments policy says what it says because of the cultural context of equating assholish/douchey/rapey/racist/misogynist/etc. behavior with mental illness.
Rape is not the result of mental illness. People who are mentally ill are not exempt from being rapists if they have sex or sexual contact with someone who does not consent, but the reason they did that was not their madness. The reason they did that is going to vary somewhat from person to person, and “they’re mad” is never going to be it. The reason is always going to one of the same reasons sane people commit rape.
It’s more than stigmatizing to make this connection where no factual connection exists. It causes physical harm to crazy people. The mentally ill are far, far more likely to be the victims of abuse, including sexual abuse, than to be the perpetrators thereof, but when this kind of behavior is linked to mental illness, the mentally ill are likely to not be recognized as victims. I mean, it also gives sane people cover for their actions, and others them, etc., but the real harm it does to the mentally ill is my point.
So, does it violate the comments policy to say that rapists should be thrown into psychiatric treatment? Dunno. I know that it feeds into a harmful social dynamic without having to bother with trying to split hairs wrt the commenting policy on this blog.
Believe me, I see what you’re trying to say:
But I hope you also believe me when I say that the psyche ward thing could have been worded better, and subbing in “psychiatric hospital” wouldn’t have improved it.
@Alpine, RN
I’m so sorry that happened to you.
What a vile individual.
I hope that you’ve come to some sense of peace about that incident. May it be so.
@Axecalibur
My own grandma’s crazy tough. She loves spicy and healthy food (so she’ll get, say, whole-wheat pizza with jalapenos or add way too many red pepper flakes to the green beans), insists on getting her regular exercise, and was back on her feet after double knee replacement within a month. So I know what it’s like.
Unfortunately, her political views are…well, she’s planning to vote for Trump. Lord save us all.
And this was easy pickings, as compared to some of the trolls I’ve read of in the archives.
@Troubelle
While we’re on the comments policy…
Mom’s not to the point of knee replacements yet *crosses fingers*
Granny Troubelle sounds like a trooper!
Oof! My sympathies
@Axecalibur
oh butts
This is embarassing. -POUNDS HEAD AGAINST WALL SEVERAL TIMES-
Maybe this is a sign that I should be going to bed.
In any case, she does at the very least support me. Trivia: she actually slept in the same dorm hall I currently am.
@Troubelle
That’s not safe! Are you OK? 🙂
http://i.imgur.com/PhijPZB.gif
It’s an exaggeration. I actually did it for dramatic effect when I was younger, though. (Then again, I also ate non-food objects. Still do.)
She was studying to be a nurse (later became a medical lawyer), I’m still weighing my options.
Ahh, The Incredibles. I saw it when I was a kid and thought it was cool. I see it now and think it’s almost too relevant.
It’s disturbing that they’re only in prison because “Laura” intervened and caught them in the act and “Claire” did the independent research. The police didn’t even get a warrant to search the apartment.
@Troubelle
Figured. Didn’t stop me worrying 🙂
I bite things. When my hands are full, I use it as an excuse to put stuff in my teeth. Don’t know why I need an excuse, but whatever 😀
Besides the objectivism, it’s pretty timeless
Just blurting this out: my husband and I have raised our sons (with their assistance) in such a way that they would be horrified by such a situation. The idea that there are such men out there almost makes me wish we had raised daughters*, so we could have raised them as my sisters were raised – as my eldest brother once put it, ‘women who would kick your ass for a quarter.”
My sisters are bad asses.
*I had no confidence in my ability to be a father to daughters.