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Mr. Bigot Goes to the Beach

Remember your sunscreen!
Remember your sunscreen!

Return of Kings, that burning internet dumpster fire of pickup artistry and Trumpian bigotry, has decided to go all grade-school on us this week, posting an essay that is basically an adult, alt-right version of the classic “what I did on my summer vacation” essay assignment.

Like a lot of Americans, whether they’re in 6th grade or in their sixties, RoK contributor Michael Sebastian went to the beach.

And there he saw … a lot of people who weren’t white. In a post with the somber title, “A Summer Beach Trip Shows How Badly America Has Declined” Sebastian reports his dire findings:

The most obvious change is that there has been a dramatic change in the level of diversity. When I was a teenager, the beach was nearly 100% white. The diversity, such as it was, consisted of a handful of blacks. Whites still comprised about two-thirds of the beach goers, but now there were also lots of Hispanics along with smaller numbers of Muslims, Asians, and Indians. Of course, there continued to be a small number of black families.

I can only assume that Sebastian, the author of a self-published book titled Staying Married in a Degenerate Age, showed up at the beach with a little notebook  in which to record the presumed ethnicity of all the other beachgoers.

The Hispanics were notable because it was very apparent that they were poor. Many of the families did not have bathing suits—they were in the ocean in their street clothes. It was especially awkward for the women as a blouse and long skirt are less than ideal beachwear. While I am certain there were poor families in the beach in my youth, I don’t recall anyone so poor that they could not purchase a bathing suit.

Maybe Trump will build you a wall around the beach.

The Muslims were also an interesting addition. I noticed several women walking along the beach covered head to ankle in dark clothing walking on the beach in 95-degree heat. 

At this point I’m pretty sure that Sebastian is just making things up. How many beaches in America boast such a perfect cross-section of All the People the Readers of Return of Kings Hate?

Sebastian never tells us what beach he allegedly went to, only that he lives in a “large city.” I also live in a large city, one in which white people are a minority. But even in the relatively less-segregated neighborhood that I live in, where most of the people you see out and around are likely to be people of color, I don’t normally see a crowd quite this rainbow-hued.

Sebastian goes on to complain about tattooed women, another Return of Kings bugbear, before informing us that some of the people on this Beach of Terror were on the drugs. Because Sebastian can totally tell.

Extreme diversity and abundant tattoos are one thing, but there is nothing that indicates spiritual bankruptcy like drug abuse. The most disturbing thing that I witnessed was the high number of people who were strung out on something. Everyone that I saw looked like they were intoxicated by something other than alcohol or pot. All of them were young. All of them were white.

Oh, no, not the white people!

I saw one young woman slowly rotating in circles with her hands on her temples in the middle of the day. There were small groups of people who seemed to have no awareness of their surroundings.

To be fair, I sometimes rotate in circles in the middle of the day. It’s fun. You should try it!

Adding insult to imaginary injury, Sebastian reports that while driving his family back home from the beach one night,

a car in the right lane suddenly swerved into my lane almost crashing into our car. My wife glanced over to find out what was happening with the driver. It turned out that it was a middle aged woman who was snapping a selfie as she was going through the tunnel—no doubt to post on Facebook. 

This was followed, I imagine, by monkeys flying out of Sebastian’s butt.

Sebastian ends his little screed by comparing present-day America to — yes, you guessed it — the Roman empire in its final days.

With the exception of diversity, which is a weapon used by the elite to divide, conquer, and rule the population, each of the things I saw on my beach vacation indicated that the foundation of America is rotting. Ancient Rome became great because of the vigor and austerity of its people. Once Romans lost their founding virtue, the Empire collapsed. … 

Barring some sort of great upheaval, it is likely that the US is headed for the same fate that befell Rome.

WORST. VACATION. EVER.

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Anarchonist
Anarchonist
4 years ago

@Alan Robertshaw

Especially as everyone knows the Roman Empire collapsed because they started squeezing the end credits of movies and letting the continuity announcers talk over them.

Wait, it wasn’t because of Millennials? And here I was so sure Pokemon Go had something to do with it.

(((Chiomara)))
(((Chiomara)))
4 years ago

It’s schadenfreude. Made up of Schaden + Freude = harm/misfortune + joy i.e. joy in other ppl’s misfortune.

FINALLY SOMEONE EXPLAINED THAT WORD IN A WAY I UNDERSTAND!!!!!! seriously, thank you. I always see it but forget to Google it and when I remember, days later, I can’t spell it.
Can someone really sweet explain what’s poe’s law, and what does it mean when you say “this guy has to be a poe”? I never understand if it means ” this guy is so extreme he has to be fake”, or “this guy is an example of how all groups have extreme members” or “as described by poe’s law, the most extreme members of the groups must not represent the whole. This is an example.”, and I don’t understand Google’s explanations. Maybe I met a bunch of people who used it wrong, Idon’t know.

BGHilton
4 years ago

@Chiomara – the term comes from ‘Poe’s Law’, an Internet ‘law’ stating that it is often impossible to tell whether someone I’d expounding a view, from someone who is satirising that view.

A ‘Poe’ by extension is a person who is trolling by pretending to hold an objectionable opinion.

OoglyBoggles
OoglyBoggles
4 years ago

Well it started in 2005 when Nathan Poe on a christian forum were posters were talking about creationists. Poe replied to the poster that remarked that if another poster didn’t have a “;)” emoji he couldn’t tell if that poster was serious or not.

Poe remarked “Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is utterly impossible to parody a Creationist in such a way that someone won’t mistake for the genuine article.”

Poe’s Law then is meant to cover times when you can’t tell a parody of an extremist groups’ opinions from the real thing. Usually the post has to either be so over the top to the point where it’s either a really good parody, or real genuine opinion.

To say that a person is a Poe, means that you think that person is so extreme that it’s probably a parody, or more often used because you can’t believe someone would genuinely hold those thoughts.

Then there’s the rare cases where the extremist speaks his views such an over exaggerated manner you think he’s taking a shot at his own beliefs, or the rarer case acting like too much of a try hard to fit in.

(((Chiomara)))
(((Chiomara)))
4 years ago

I’ll take a minute to second that this comment section is the best. You taught me so much, even me being a shy (tee hee!) silent reader half of the time.

You see, before I was here, the other feminist spaces I was in were pretty harsh (which I comprehend). It was great for me to learn that my opinion is not always precious and worth saying, that I should be quiet and listen when people are speaking about problems that are not mine, that truly recognizing mistakes and apologizing makes you a better human in all senses, that I am not entitled to get to places and demanding to be spoon fed information, that I am not entitled to, when someone else is talking about their oppression, talking about a marginally related problem of mine to shift the focus to me.
TL;DR: I learned to be humble and speak and rationalize differently from the trolls that come here.

But at the same time I was always afraid to search for psychological reassurance, and to say “I know nothing about this and I think that since you research on that for a long time, maybe you could provide me more guidance than just a Google search? Please? If you want to.”, which I feel safe to do here. And you even get to the absurd of saying “pfff, girl, stop saying sorry for just speaking”, which is amazing. Thank you for this all, and if you ever feel I am growing too entitled and stealing people’s spaces or voices, please do tell me.

Off the top of my head I can remember you made me FINALLY comprehend the Valerie Solanas thing, I learned a bunch about ableism, a lot about international feminism, you made me interested in philosophy and basic understanding of fallacies, about how biases work and are inherent to the human brain, which improved my way of thinking and talking endlessly, how not thinking emotionally is impossible and knowing your emotions is important. Not to mention less feministy things such as grammar and general history.
Entertainment wise, you convinced me to get interested to read Atlas Shrugged. I THINK ITS THE FUNNIEST THING I HAVE EVER READ, it gets me crying, seriously. The funniest part is someone wrote that with a serious face and people talk about it as something thoughtful.
You made me get interested in Fallout 4 and Portal, and I LOVED THEM with all my heart, which is rare for video games
You presented me to some pretty cool little RPGs
I can’t remember anymore, but there are more things. You rock, guys, and have excellent taste.

And today you are talking about this EUIV thing? I Googled it and it looks like the game I dream with every since my childhood. The concept and functions seem so freaking awesome. I tried some games of this sort in my cellphone but they… They were mostly crap. What little strategy one of them has doesn’t include logistics such as economic development over time. I hope that game is affordable to me and my poor stone age pc can run it.
Sigh, I love this place. Your tastes are so much like mine.

Ps: Go preparing yourselves because I soon will ask you for reading material on politics and economy, so I can understand everything better. I want to understand political and economic strategies, their history, their pros and cons, which countries apply them. I don’t really know how to begin. I tried to read the communist manifest but I feel I don’t have the background to comprehend and judge it. So if some very smart people would be kind enough to gather me some sources, that would be lovely. Not today, though, take your time.

ETA: Oogly and BG:

Ooooooooooh! Thaaaank you! You’re the best!!!!

Diptych
Diptych
4 years ago

But at the same time I was always afraid to search for psychological reassurance, and to say “I know nothing about this and I think that since you research on that for a long time, maybe you could provide me more guidance than just a Google search? Please? If you want to.”, which I feel safe to do here.

I do love the knowledge-sharing that takes place here – on social issues, plus just on stuff folks happen to know about! (Also, a personal bugbear (unless it’s just a hobby horse) – people saying “just google it” when asked for information… about something that’s obviously subjective, and there’s no saying whether the search results would be ones they’d agree with, if there were any results at all! As we’ve seen here, when someone’s looking for a good up-to-date 101 resource, well, there isn’t always one available.)

Re: Rome: at this point I think it’s safe to say “the Roman Empire fell because it was an incredibly big, incredibly big political institution, and took a lot of ridiculous risks over the centuries it operated, and eventually it just couldn’t stay what passed for stable anymore and other political institutions took over.” I mean, seriously – you’ve got expanding borders, shifting capitals, different leaders and groups assassinating each other every ten minutes, changing state churches, colonialist economics… no-one can keep all those plates in the air indefinitely!

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
4 years ago

@Oogly

Also this was a while ago but I can’t believe you remembered when I said I didn’t get nostalgia, until I mentioned Rosario X Vampire. I didn’t even remember typing about nostalgia until now

I have a long memory. It’s not precise, the details fall thru the cracks rather easily, but it goes way back. Doesn’t hurt that the nostalgia convo was a precursor to having respect (which I still don’t quite feel, but I think I understand) explained to me. And, just to show how basic I am, Pokemon and Yugioh are my childhood anime. Don’t worry, I’ve since expanded my horizons 🙂

Amused
4 years ago

@Ouroboros13:

No. But some people were dumb enough to assume I was. After 9/11 my classmates even thought I was Middle Eastern.

You are from Eastern Europe and you don’t know how this works? Okay, here is the rule. If you look Jewish, you are Jewish. You say you aren’t, but that’s exactly what a Jew WOULD say, isn’t it? And when you go to the beach, it’s all part of your nefarious Hebrew agenda to something something unleash plagues on the world. It’s all there in the Protocols.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ redsilkphoenix

In the books Morse drives a Lancia. It was John Thaw who wanted the Jag in the TV series. I wonder if it’s a throwback to his time on the Sweeney. In that, the villains always drove a MK2 Jag (judging by the number plate, all crooks in London used to share it).

ETA: Heh, I can still remember the number plate for the Sweeney’s car NHK295M. And they say kids aren’t influenced by TV.

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
4 years ago

Aw, @Chiomara <3 Your posts always brighten my day. I'm really glad you're here. I feel exactly the same about this place as you do – it's really helped me understand feminism and compassionate social justice so much better, has taught me a lot about myself, given me language for so many things I've felt and couldn't properly express, and on the way I've learned so much about so many things. Everyone here, keep being awesome!

EUIV, CK2 and the other Paradox games are wonderful and don't require much in the way of graphics – they just basically need to display a map and some icons, after all. They can eat up a lot of computing power in running the simulation, though. I’ll dig up the minimum requirements for you:

Europa Universalis IV & Crusader Kings 2:
OS: Vista/Windows 7/Windows 8
Processor: Intel® Pentium® IV 2.4 GHz eller AMD 3500+
Memory: 2 GB RAM
Graphics: NVIDIA® GeForce 8800 or ATI Radeon® X1900, 512mb video memory required
DirectX®: 9.0c
Hard Drive: 2 GB HD space
Sound: Direct X- compatible soundcard
Other Requirements: Broadband Internet connection

The games can be sort of pricey, but if you watch them on Steam, they typically go on sale for something like 75% to 80% off during sales, so you can pick’em up for super cheap then. The entire Crusader Kings 2 library is around $200 Canadian, but it drops to around $45 during a sale. Very worth it! Even though a lot of the DLC is silly flag and unit packs, they’re very cheap individually and add so much (in my opinion). The music is *especially* worth it. The game even automatically detects if you’re playing around Christmas, and mixes a Christmas version of its theme into the playlist!

I think it’d be a lot of fun to play a dynasty game of some sort. CK2 is good for that – rulers live for a period of time, and then when they die you play their successor, so at that point it can be passed on to another player. EUIV doesn’t really have that, but we could each play a set period of time, maybe 20 to 50 years, before passing the game along.

I have no preference of which nation to play! They’re all neat.

(We would also have to decide on which expansions to use, but we can talk about that later :o)

Podkayne Lives
Podkayne Lives
4 years ago

I don’t know if any of the emperors of Rome would have read as black to a modern eye, but the Severans were North African through Septimius’s mother. Now, there’s a dramatic food fight to be had about what that means, which I am not really qualified to enter, but they probably didn’t look like the white English actors who play Romans in movies. Then again, very few of the emperors looked like that, I imagine.

The problem with Googling ‘black Roman emperors’ is that on one hand you get Stormfront and Apricity, and on the other, you get various poorly researched Afrocentric sites, insisting that Augustus was also black, so it’s hard for someone like me, who has limited knowledge of Roman history, to figure out what is real, and what is just modern narrishkeit about race.

Monzach
Monzach
4 years ago

@Scildfreja

If we end up playing EUIV I’d definitely be interested in joining. I would recommend playing with a European power, though, as the rest of the world can be a dangerous place for a new player. Although if we start with more experienced players taking their turns first, well then the sky’s the limit, basically. 😀

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ podkayne

Then again, very few of the emperors looked like that, I imagine.

Emporer Vespaspian famously said that his official state portrait (as used on coins and statues) made it look like he “was taking a dump”.

He then went on to praise its accuracy.

The Real Cie
The Real Cie
4 years ago

What stuns and saddens me is the fact that someone was desperate enough to marry Sebastian.

Megalibrarygirl
Megalibrarygirl
4 years ago

@Chiomara

I agree with you. I’ve learned a ton from the commenters here. There are so many knowledgeable folks from different walks of life sharing here. I have also found myself googling games or blogs suggested in the comments.

@Diptych

I agree about the just google it thing. I am a librarian and one of the hardest things to do is to figure out how to ask the “right” question to get the answer you need. Also, I edit on Wikipedia and my friends there who work in different countries and states have noticed you get different Google results based on location. Very frustrating.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

comment image

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
4 years ago

For every possible opinion you can hold, right or wrong, there’s a google search that will bring back results to reinforce your opinions

<3 librarians

Ginormica
Ginormica
4 years ago

@LGB – That Arabic Orthodox chant is lovely. For further bigot headsploding, might I recommend Sister Marie Keyrouz, who is Lebanese, a nun (Maronite Christian, iirc) and sings Christian music in Arabic? She has an exquisite voice. I have a recording of her singing Easter chants which I listen to during Lent.

I attempted to link to a video of her singing the Magnificat in Arabic, with traditional Arabic instrumentation, but my tablet isn’t cooperating.

video

Megalibrarygirl
Megalibrarygirl
4 years ago

@Alan @Scildfreja

*big grin and happy dance*

Aunt Podger
Aunt Podger
4 years ago

@the Real Cie: not so much “desperate” as “broken,” I imagine.Can you imagine a situation so bad that marriage to someone like that would be preferable to it, once you’ve ruled out the idea that she is a refugee from somewhere absolutely unbearable?

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
4 years ago

“… and we ‘aven’t had any dinner.”

The best things about Life on Mars were how they used-but-not-just-imitated things from The Sweeney and The Professionals 🙂

“…come out with your hands up, you’re surrounded by armed bastards.”

Weatherwax
Weatherwax
4 years ago

@Alan

I’ve got a soft spot for Vespasian, but given that most of what I know about him is through the medium of Lindsey Davis’ Falco novels, I doubt I’m getting the most historically accurate of pictures. That does sound like something Davis’ version would say, though.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
4 years ago

@Megalibrarygirl : “by location” ? More like by person. Google do adapt its search to the information he have on you. It’s not the worse offender, but it’s sometime very noticeable.

Kale
4 years ago

“diversity, which is a weapon used by the elite to divide, conquer, and rule the population”

Im sorry, fucking what?

“diversity, which is a weapon used by the elite to divide, conquer, and rule the population”

seriously?

“diversity, which is a weapon used by the elite to divide, conquer, and rule the population”

like, the actual fucking existance of people who arent all one uniform gray blob like that one episode of Fairly Odd Parents…… is a CONSPIRACY!!?!!

HOW?!

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ opposable thumbs

“… and we ‘aven’t had any dinner.”

I’m having hoops.

Kale
4 years ago

btw, idk what imaginary city this guy is in but iirc in Chicago in 1912, white people drowned via stoning a black teen for swimming too close to the “white beach”, and cops refused to do anything, starting a riot that killed more black folks than white. J/s

rogue angel
rogue angel
4 years ago

Ninja’ed by Chiomara, Megalibrarygirl, and others.

My own $0.02, for what it’s worth:

I’m not the best-educated type in the world (a high-school diploma and not much else), so I do a lot of lurking and not a lot of typing. I’ve learned quite a bit from my Internet surfing/lurking–but most of it’s along the lines of “learn from people who aren’t out to con you” or “there’s a whole process involved in figuring out if such-and-such a source is credible”. As for actual details–names, dates, specific concepts–I come up short.
A search engine like Google comes into its own, IMHO, when I already sort-of know what I want to know more about. Most of the time, I don’t have any more of a clue than “oh, I don’t know, sociology stuff”. I have a vague idea and that’s about it. On a site like this, however, I can take in what smarter/better-educated people have to say. Then I can narrow my query down to something like “education levels and classism” (read: the barriers a working-class jerk like me faces when trying for a college education). I can also open my horizons when it comes to things I know absolutely nothing about. (Too many examples to list, sadly.)
TL;DR version: I’m learning while I’m lurking, and it really does help. If I’m quiet, it’s mainly because I think I’m not smart enough to add to the conversation.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
4 years ago

Go preparing yourselves because I soon will ask you for reading material on politics and economy, so I can understand everything better. I want to understand political and economic strategies, their history, their pros and cons, which countries apply them. I don’t really know how to begin. I tried to read the communist manifest but I feel I don’t have the background to comprehend and judge it. So if some very smart people would be kind enough to gather me some sources, that would be lovely. Not today, though, take your time.

That’s pretty broad. I think what you may want is a college textbook on international relations. Unfortunately I don’t have any offhand to recommend. One of the most important revelations in IR, though, is the fact that countries almost always act on internal pressures rather than external ones. We pretend that countries are in some kind of dialogue with one another, but this is true – when it is true – only indirectly. Internal pressure is always the #1 influence. This is even the case for something like war: you defend yourself from an invader because the population wants you to, not because other countries want you to or expect you to. Internal pressure usually originates in “the population” in modern Western society, but it can be restricted to only the national elites, and this was the case for most of history.

The Communist Manifesto is pretty dense, and probably not the first bit of political theory to try out. I would go for Hobbes and Locke first, then maybe Rousseau. They wrote the foundations of Western political theory. Later writers like Marx had read them and referenced them, and when you get to people like Nietzsche and Marx it helps to understand those references when they are made. You can go back farther than Hobbes, all the way to Aristotle, but I don’t think the cost/benefit of understanding contemporary politics is worth it.

A good grounding in history starting ~1500 is a must. If you haven’t studied history, I would recommend that you find a good modern world history textbook.

kupo
kupo
4 years ago

If I’m quiet, it’s mainly because I think I’m not smart enough to add to the conversation.

I understand being reluctant to comment, but as long as you’re respectful and don’t double-down if people point out an issue with something you’ve said, there’s no reason to hold back on commenting because you don’t know a lot about the topic. In fact, we can probably point you in the right direction and you will probably teach us something.

Dalillama
Dalillama
4 years ago
msexceptiontotherule
msexceptiontotherule
4 years ago

Are we absolutely certain Sebastian *is* married to a real live human woman? I mean, he writes for ROK…could be that he just made up the married thing.

Paradoxical Intention - Resident Cheeseburger Slut

Okay, so off-topic, but it’s really wonderful, so I had to share.

I just went to my first ever Pagan Pride festival.

It wasn’t too grand, mostly just some vendor booths in a small wooded glen at the fairgrounds, but it was so fun! I did lots of walking (didn’t hatch any Pokemon Go eggs though! D:< )

I got an MLP tarot reading mat (that has a pocket I can tuck my cards into!), a hand-made tarot bag with an AMAZING Judgement needlepoint done on it, and a pewter pendant of Hephaestus. (That same booth had little plush Basteses [Basti?] and Anubises. They also were selling some AWESOME tarot cards, but the pendant was like 12 bucks, sooooo…)

There was a guy singing on stage, and he sang a song called "No Shame in Being a Hufflepuff", and there were lots of awesome dogs there (ONE HAD A DYED RAINBOW TAIL AND IT WAS SO CUTE), and even though we did ALL THAT WALKING, my legs didn't hurt one bit (my feet, on the other hand, are not happy)! Though, my wallet is now crying. No more fun money for me for quite some time. : P

I also did a Walmart run, and got some poster tac, so I now have things on my walls, and I got some Monster High dolls on clearance, as well as some Monster High vinyl toys (For a dollar each!), and I went to Big Lots for a bookshelf, but they didn’t have the one I wanted, or the one my roommates wanted, so we just bought some snacks, and I bought my calendar for next year and a cheap hanger for it.

All in all, today was awesome, and I wanted to share.

Tomorrow, we’re doing grocery shopping and laundry.

You know, adult stuff. : P

rogue angel
rogue angel
4 years ago

@ msexceptiontotherule: as you said, he writes for RoK. He could have made the whole thing up. Here’s hoping the only “wife” he has is of the inflate-a-date variety, though. I don’t want to contemplate the alternative.

@ PI: glad you had a good time. Welcome back. 🙂

(((Chiomara)))
(((Chiomara)))
4 years ago

@Scildfreja
I just searched on Steam (I didn’t even have na account, haha). It’s not insanely expensive, I can afford it if I really want. But Civilization V is ten little Brazil bucks, and that’s insanely tempting. Do you think it can replace it? Can we play together too? I should warn, I will probably suck.
Obs: YES, I only found out about Civilization series TODAY, because of you. My boyfriend was baffled. It apparently is one of the most popular things of all time. But… what can I say? I love technology, but I am very outdated in it. Until Civ IV came out I didn’t have a PC with broadband connection, so… yeah. Don’t laugh at me xD

@Alan
If Neil Gaiman, AKA God, said it, then it’s true.

@Rogue Angel
I have the same degree of academic education. Don’t let that shame you too much. There are several types of smartness, and not having a PhD doesn’t mean you’re dumber than someone who does. For further evidence, read Dawkins’ twitter :p

@PoM
Thank you! That gives me a direction. I got Aristotle pretty covered. Never really read Hobbes and Locke but I know the basics. I’ll actually read it now, thank you. My general world history is decent too. As far as high school subjects go, I am quite a pro, cause, you see, I am trying to get into medschool for years now. To enter medschool you have to grab all things you brush through in high school and dig, dig, dig in them. So for years of study and work I have no bachelors or anything. My knowledge evolved from “A relatively good high schooler” to “a very very very unnecessarily nerdy highschooler”. I mean how impressive is it that I know logarithms… which everyone knows… but I am diferent cause I can do like… logarithms that are kind of longer than usual and your teacher didn’t teach you cause it’s useless and a waste of time. Yey! Really impressive, it really paid off.

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
4 years ago

@PI
Your posts lately are just brimful o’ happiness. Yay for you 😀

Kat
Kat
4 years ago

As long as we’re already OT — and really, is Donald Trump ever OT on a site that mocks bigotry?

Court docs reveal Donald Trump’s ‘cruel’ treatment of Ivana

Explosive court papers containing embarrassing details about Ivana Trump’s divorce from Donald have been abruptly concealed after a Daily News inquiry — all without a judge’s order.

The dusty documents stored in a box in the clerk’s office of Manhattan Supreme Court contain allegations that Trump “verbally abused and demeaned” his ex-wife. Ivana alleged that he “lied” and that his treatment of her was “cruel and inhuman.”

In the end, it was “unsafe or improper for them to be married,” the papers charge.

That’s the information The News was able to get. But over 100 pages of documents in the case filed in 1990 — including key portions of a sworn deposition from Ivana — are missing. . . .

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/court-docs-reveal-donald-trump-cruel-treatment-ivana-article-1.2796179

Kat
Kat
4 years ago

@Rogue Angel

I’m learning while I’m lurking, and it really does help.

I’m learning a lot too.

Also, welcome!

EJ (The Other One)
4 years ago

@Rogue Angel:
Welcome!

Please feel free to ask things. My fields of knowledge are perhaps less useful than those of PoM and Scildfreja, but I’m always happy to discuss topics when I know something about them.

@Dalilama:
That’s an extremely cool link. Thank you.

@Chiomara:
I’m going to disagree with PoM here, which is something that I very rarely do. I don’t think you need to read Locke and Hobbes and Marx, at least not yet; I’d suggest that you read about the impact of their ideas instead. A broad overview is often more useful, because it lets you put the ideas in context and can see where they belong and are used. Once you understand the broad overview, you can begin delving deeper into specific areas that interest you.

The word for a person who self-educates is an autodidact, and while I have immense respect for autodidacts, they often suffer from not being aware of where the gaps in their knowledge are. This can lead to you (for example) knowing everything about what Hobbes said, but nothing about how people responded to Hobbes and interpreted his work, even though that’s the more important part.

With this in mind, I’ll recommend a text which my mother got for me when I was young: A History of Western Society. I own the second edition, which is in two volumes, but I see that it’s currently up to the eleventh edition.

Academic books often end up with many editions, and the secret is that every edition normally re-uses at least 95% of the previous edition’s text. The price of new copies of the later editions will be very high, but used copies can be very cheap, especially of older editions, and it doesn’t really make a difference.

@Paradoxy:
That sounds amazing. Did you make contacts who live near your new place? That sounds like it could lead to a really supportive social network.

Monzach
Monzach
4 years ago

@(((Chiomara)))

Oh wow, that’s a pretty interesting dilemma. Civ5 is very good indeed, in a very different way from the various Paradox titles. Basically it all boils down to if you want to have an arcade-y sort of experience or a micromanagement filled realistic experience. Civ5 has a longer timescale for sure, and you can sink a whole lot of time into it, but I personally prefer the Paradox games.

I know you didn’t ask for my contribution so I hope you don’t mind me giving my opinion. 🙂

EJ (The Other One)
4 years ago

On video gaming:

Civilisation games are synchronous – we all have to be online at the same time – so that could lead to scheduling difficulties. Nonetheless, if there’s demand for it then I’d be happy to play, if you’ll have me.

(As a digression, apparently Civilisation V is a very popular game among feminist-atheists. Rebecca Watson has done blog entries and videos about it, and has mentioned that Jen McCreight is apparently a terrifying grandmaster who will wreck the face of anyone foolish enough to challenge her.)

Playing a succession game of a Paradox game is asynchronous, so we wouldn’t have to be online at the same time, but also won’t have the same sense of community.

My vote is for CK2 (possibly with an import into EU4 later) because I love CK2 dearly.

Lone Galtian Bootstrapper
Lone Galtian Bootstrapper
4 years ago

@Ginormica

Ooh, NICE, thank you.

Re the Roman Empire…Didn’t it just ‘fall’ because it was simply its TIME? No empire is meant to last forever, cycles & sine waves of history and all that. Saying an empire should last forever is like saying it’s an OUTRAGE that humans die. I mean, yes, it sucks, but just like death is caused by living, empires falling is also caused by ‘time-n-stuff’. I think once you’ve lasted over a hundred years, as an empire, you’ve done quite well, and the rest is just up to CHANCE.

(((Chiomara)))
(((Chiomara)))
4 years ago

@EJ
Ooooh. Thaaank you. That book sounds very interesting. Kind of out of my financial possibilities at this moment, but one of the nice things about being eager of knowledge is teachers love you. And the good thing about teachers loving you is that teachers get academic books for free all the time. So I will try to see what I can do, maybe I’m lucky ^^

@Monzach
OF COURSE I don’t mind, dear, thank you.
So Paradox’ games are more realistic than CIV, you mean to say?

@EJ, uhm, again
Hahaha, wow, it’s amazing how we fall in stereotypes without noticing. How come feminists often like the same exact things that don’t even have anything to do with feminism? Crowd unconscious (is that a term in English?) is a very interesting thing.

On Civilization V, I have spent the afternoon and night on it yesterday. My computer was gladly able to run it, even though in what looks like a simplified graphics version, I guess. I mean, instead of a fog I see black hexagons, for example. But nothing that interferes with the game play, so I’m loving it. I naturally am terrible at it, and I can’t decide if I should play as if I really was a leader, doing the most for the happiness of my people, or if I should accept they are just AIs and rule with an iron fist.
I hate, hate, HATE when I have to go to war and get a little offended when some other nation no longer wants to be friends. Even in a game like this, I can’t help being emotionally invested, which is hilarious and rather telling about the nature of myself and humans in general, Ithink . Screw Bismarck, I didn’t need your open borders anyway, douche! I should have accepted the pact of secrecy against you when I had the chance. :p It’s been a lot of fun.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ chiomara

I should accept they are just AIs and rule with an iron fist

When video games became popular a common theme in speculative literature was that the government was using ‘shoot em up’ type games to either train up or identify who would make good warriors in real life.

Maybe all these ‘civilisation’ type simulators are grooming the next generation of leaders?

Diptych
Diptych
4 years ago

Paradox games skew pretty hard towards detail and realism, yeah. Lots of long slow strategies, dynastic crises, provincial management, and so forth. The Civ games are a bit more like a board game with historical influences. Personally, I find the Paradox oeuvre a bit daunting – I’ve dabbled a little in them, but Civ is more my style for a relaxing evening’s play. (And, well, I’m most definitely too tender-hearted not to try to make make my civ as peaceful and happy as possible!)

Monzach
Monzach
4 years ago

@(((Chiomara)))

I think it’s fair to say that the Paradox style of doing games is a lot more complex and with many more variables than in the Civ series of games. It’s a bit difficult to put into words, but the world in EUIV (I’ll use it as an example since I have many more hours put into it than into any other Paradox title) seems much more alive and with more realistic interactions between the leaders. Basically, in the world of EUIV there are at least three stats between two countries that influence their interactions between one another. You have your relations, from -200 to +200, which are the easiest to check. Then there’s aggressive expansion which directly influences the relations stat and which is also completely uncapped (I once had a -600 malus to relations with Brandenburg when playing as Russia, for example)! Then there’s trust which is a bit more complicated than either of the two previous ones. Basically, trust is a more long term modifier, since it gets affected much slower than either relations or AE, both positively and negatively. And in the end another nation’s trust in your own will decide if they want to, for example, marry into your dynasty or form an alliance.

I’m sorry for the wall o’ text there, I’m a huge fan of Paradox games and enjoy telling other people about them. 😀

The one thing about EUIV that I feel I should warn you about, though, is the fact that there’s actually very little to do in the game during peacetime. There’s trading, developing your nation’s provinces and colonization if you want to do that, but the game does largely revolve around large empires duking it out in the battlefield. So if that’s not your jam, then maybe try out CKII first?

JoeB
JoeB
4 years ago

I can’t believe I didn’t think of it reading the post but I recently started listening to a new podcast called The Fall of Rome, by an actual PhD in History specializing in Late Antiquity. A good listen for those interested.

https://soundcloud.com/fallofromepodcast

(((Chiomara)))
(((Chiomara)))
4 years ago

When video games became popular a common theme in speculative literature was that the government was using ‘shoot em up’ type games to either train up or identify who would make good warriors in real life.

Pff, not me, for sure. For you to have an idea, I come to the absurd of feeling a bit bad for the killed henchmen of the bad guy in action movies. I’m like “n-no, John McCain, don’t kill him, just make him unconscious! Maybe he just had a debt to pay!”. It’s honestly a bit over the top. I wonder how would I be at a war, or as a cop. I’d be dead in 2 days.

Maybe all these ‘civilisation’ type simulators are grooming the next generation of leaders?

Hehe, again, not me. Unless you want to turn the country into Canada (<3), in which case, call me up. But it's a blessing and a curse, cause MAYBE that model isn't fit for every country, especially ancient Egypt.

@Monzach and Diptych

Damn, those games do sound awesome. I think I will fool around with Civ (which seems to be kind of easier to learn) and once I get familiar with this type of game I'll move to these, probably CK. Thank you ^^

EJ (The Other One)
4 years ago

@Alan:
If it’s relevant, there’s a strong trend of nationalism within the fanbases of strategy games, where people start to strongly identify with the state and feel that its power should be preeminent over the good of its citizens (and especially over citizens of other states.) Perhaps that’s what games like that are training up?

@Chiomara:
I don’t know whether you’re in a city or how good the libraries are in Brazil, but libraries can be a good resource for finding such books.

On the subject of video games, I think Diptych describes it well: the Civilisation series are games first and foremost, which are based on history whenever it doesn’t get in the way of gameplay. The Paradox series try to be as accurate as possible to history, even if this makes the game entirely unfair and unbalanced.

On the subject of stereotypical likes and dislikes, I think it’s because humans are joined-up creatures. If someone enjoys things A, B and C then it’s probably because they have personality traits X and Y; someone else who has those traits will also enjoy A, B and C.

Tovius
Tovius
4 years ago

When video games became popular a common theme in speculative literature was that the government was using ‘shoot em up’ type games to either train up or identify who would make good warriors in real life.

When I was a teenager during the second Iraq war, I had an army recruiter call and try to convince me that war was like playing Call of Duty. I was too confused and offended to respond, and just hung up.

Drive By Linker
Drive By Linker
4 years ago

I’m going to drop in and recommend that anyone interested in a detailed but accessible account of the fall of Rome check out Patrick Wyman’s podcast: The Fall of Rome.

The most recent episode (5) is where Dr. Wyman really starts digging into some changes in Rome’s political order that seem to have had pretty dire consequences. Most of the previous episodes have been devoted to exploring the Goth/barbarian experience and the interconnections between the Roman and barbarian worlds. It’s fascinating stuff, imo.

Edit: Well, JoeB beat me to the punch, so consider this a +1 to his recommendation.