I’ve gotten a number of extremely thoughtful responses from assorted alt-right twitterists to my post yesterday in which I offered an improved version of the new alt-right logo, with a Ku Klux Klanner head replacing the stylized “a.”
And by “thoughtful,” I mean “don’t read the following tweets if you’re not in the mood for jokes about murder, suicide, and the Holocaust and/or a defense of the KKK’s lynching of black people.”
I think I hear your oven timer going off, it's at 616 degrees right now.
— GrauTiger? (@PZKW117) September 12, 2016
https://twitter.com/soObviousTurtle/status/775460982239989760
https://twitter.com/AmericanReset88/status/775488975544856576
https://twitter.com/NationalistHero/status/775468355109007360
https://twitter.com/RedskinRey624/status/775469805046337536
https://twitter.com/RedskinRey624/status/775477705978421248
Oh look, a death wish:
@mc_morn Another leftist loser living with his mother. Delete your acct. David, then yourself. pic.twitter.com/tEyZAWiXCc
— Concierge Monthly (@ConciergeMthly) September 12, 2016
Followed by a death threat:
@mc_morn Save us the trouble of hunting you down…..:)
— Concierge Monthly (@ConciergeMthly) September 12, 2016
This one, posted by someone using a picture of racist mass murderer Anders Breivik as an avatar and featuring a photo of actual dead people, is a little too NSFW to post here.
Given the, er, high racist content of these responses, I’m not quite sure why exactly any of these people are mad about being compared to the KKK.
To be fair, though, they weren’t all mad. There was one Pepe-avatared alt-right Twitterer who liked my fixed logo:
https://twitter.com/freed_humanity/status/775459668562849792
Oh, and FYI, Twitter Nazis, I’m not actually Jewish. Like a lot of the people sporting “echoes” around their names on Twitter, I added the marks as a tiny little “I’m Spartacus”-style act of solidarity. That said, I did go to a Jewish day camp for several summers as a kid. One time we got to meet Sandy Koufax! That makes me practically a Jew.
@ Dalillama
It’s certainly expensive, yes. But in order to assess cost, you first need to conceive of the practice itself as a possibility. If individual liberty is not a concept that resonates or even exists, then deprivation of individual liberty can’t be understood as a serious punishment. Foucault’s work – which is the research I find most convincing – claims that incarceration was more about redefining the ways that power could be exercised, rather than concerns about the inhumanity of torture and execution. Hence the emergence of prisons in roughly the same time period as the other great institutions of discipline – schools, hospitals, the military, etc. not to mention the birth of psychiatry. But I’ll stop there because I could happily babble about this topic for days 🙂
@ Axe, Croquembouche, John, Alan
You guys are incredible and I will take ALL THE HUGS and give lots back in return. I was up half the night worrying that I should never have posted that comment but now I’m all humbled and happy <3 <3
@ John
I’m envisioning that scenario now and it’s making me laugh. It’s a perfect Monty Python sketch.
@ Alan
Did someone say Foucault? Now you’ve gone and done it. I’ve had a massive crush on him for years (yes, I know he was gay, and that he’s also somewhat dead, but I can dream, right? I’m so pathetic that I wore a black armband when Deleuze died…).
Foucault’s work has informed almost everything that I’ve written/taught about. Discipline & Punish is an excellent book, as is the History of Sexuality series. Even The Order of Things despite the fact that I can only understand a quarter of it.
Now that I’ve hogged the thread for ages, I’ll shut up, and get on with the day’s work 🙂
@Mish the Ascendant Lady of Cats
You’re one of us now ! *cartoon villain laughter*
We shall take over the world in one fell nocturnal swoop ! (Well really, more like 4 or 5, unless the Flat-Earth folks are right.)
What is it you were worrying about though ? Don’t lose sleep over it 🙁
I mean it had to be pretty bad to keep you up if you can otherwise sleep soundly in the country that has those terrifying brown spiders and other murdercritters.
Also, what if there is indeed an eternal afterlife but it is only achievable through death penalty ? Why does this still somehow make more sense than my other proposition ?
Re : prisons
This makes for a very interesting read (I thiiiink I might even have some of Foucault’s books somewhere, need to look for them). I’m curious about this part in particular :
As a side-note : there’s this recurring claim about a “debt to society” being paid in prison, or having been paid already by people who came out. Now, for what it’s worth, my personal belief is that forgiveness (societal or personal) is one of the most important things ever. It doesn’t mean that it can be systematically obtained just by “making amends”, apologizing, etc, of course. But I have a problem with sincere efforts toward it just being dismissed and ignored – the people making those efforts then being dismissed and ignored as well, as if they stopped to exist the moment they did The Bad Thing ™. Now there’s that claim that it’s basically what prison is for, redemption. I wanna call bullshit on that claim. But at the same time I really think that it should be made into a reality. That’d be a good start in improving the whole “punishment” system.
@ John, regicidal submarine of beasts
First off, we’re not immersed in terrifying critters, silly boy. I live in a very urbanised area and we have these things called security screens on the windows – the worst creatures indoors are likely to be mosquitoes or the occasional cockroach. Are they allowed in France? 😛
Re the worrying – I won’t go into details on what’s basically a public forum, but it’s not nice. Plus I don’t like sharing personal stuff, usually. Not even with family. Repression has become a good friend of mine!
But on to more interesting things – ermergerd, your thoughts on prisons and forgiveness and everything. My mum and I did a lot of work with prisoners’ rights groups and this is something that comes up a lot (Foucault also worked with prison reform groups; did I mention that I luff him so much?).
How does one make amends, especially if one has taken a life? I’m not sure you can. What can we reasonably demand, in that case? What could be grounds for forgiveness (or refusal to forgive)? Do people want to forgive criminals, or do they simply want them punished? And punished to what degree? And how?
What are your thoughts on those programs where an ‘offender’ has to meet with the people affected, and hear their stories, and apologise to them?
@Mish (and John)
If I may
I should hope that ‘if the people affected ask for that’ is emblazoned in neon there. Cos I can’t think of a worse thing otherwise…
In the case when it’s requested, absolutely. The ‘offender’ frankly gave up the right to refuse that particular summons when they committed the crime. Personally, I’m not a huge forgiveness guy. Sorry. I wanna believe that I could forgive if someone hurt me, but that forgiveness isn’t the right of the ‘offender’. If I forgive, it’d be cos I want to. And it’s OK if I never do
One’s ‘debt to society’ upon killing someone or anything else is in doing what can be done, for the rest of one’s life, to make up for it. Even and especially knowing that debt may never be fully paid. Apologizing to the people you’ve hurt is the very least you can do
I don’t mean to come off as too judgmental or harsh. The rights of prisoners is important. As is it important to see them as people, instead of just numbers and rap sheets. It’s just… If forgiveness is expected of us, does it still mean anything? Part of a good apology is recognizing that forgiveness is your job and not the injured party
Edit: typos. I need to lie down
@ mish et al
We’ve been having a flirtation with ‘restorative justice’ programmes as an alternative to custody, especially for young offenders (the more cynical may think that’s a cost saving thing).
They usually take the form of either meeting the victims or at least writing to them. It’s completely up to the victim whether they want to take part of course. Then the offender may be required to do something to either ‘pay back’ the victim or the community generally. So they may end up mowing lawns and washing cars, either for the victim or as part of a community litter picking thing. You can get the idea.
It’s a hard to monitor how successfully they are. There are some nice heartwarming stories of people becoming friends with the kids who vandalised their property (great press but how often is that the case?) And sometimes putting a human face to the crime does make kids realise that their idiocy has real world consequences. But as for recidivism rates, who knows?
It’s long been axiomatic in the CJS that the best way to avoid young trouble makers going into a life of crime is not to catch them. If they’re left to their own devices they grow out of it, but if they get embroiled in the criminal justice system they’re usually there for life (for all sorts of factors).
This is especially for Dalillama
It costs more to send a kid to Feltham Young Offenders Institution than it does to Eton.
Mosquitoes and cockroaches are indeed allowed in France, but “anywhere near me” is its own jurisdiction.
As Axe said, as long as the people affected asked for that, then I’m all for it.
I guess I’m pretty heavily biased on the forgiveness thing (at least on a personal and not legal level) but I think it can at least bring peace of mind if nothing else. Granted it would depend on a lot of different things, but I think that it can sometimes help.
Took me three hours to write this, and the amount of backspacing it took is real.
@John
I have 2 rules for bugs in my house:
1)Better not let me see you
2)If I see you, better not be slow
http://67.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3wm2hS8mC1ruib37o1_500.jpg
*nod of understanding*
@Alan Robertshaw
I am all too aware of that.
re: restorative justice/alternatives to prison
I have been reading a well researched set of mystery novels recently set in Ireland at the turn of the 16th century, when most of the island was still governed by traditional Brehon law. Under this system, virtually all crimes (Killing a member of your immediate (blood) family excepted) is public confession and a fine; the fine for murder, for instance is 21 good milch cows, plus an additional number based on the victim’s social status which is enough to see that the victim’s family can get by at least (the fine is doubled if the perpetrator doesn’t own up themselves within 2 days. Since most killings are spur of the moment things, they usually would own up; see Alan above about 60% of murderers calling the police themselves). If the perpetrator can’t pay the fine, their clan members pay it for them, and will then watch them closely forever, so as to avoid having to pay out again. If someone hasn’t got a clan, well, they’re not from around here and will be sent back where they came from if they can’t pay. If someone won’t pay, then the law says the next step is blood feud between their clan and and the victim’s.
It’s far from perfect, obviously, and it also relies at least partially on the existence of clan groupings, but it’s definitely worth a look.
(For those interested, the series in question is The Burren Mysteries by Cora Harrison.)
@Axe, John,
Restorative justice – thanks, Alan! Couldn’t remember the specific term for it. It’s an interesting concept and I only mentioned it as it’s tangentially related to the whole messy problem of
1) what to do with people who break the law, particularly when it involves injury or worse to other people
2) if there is any possibility of making amends or paying a debt
Which is the problem I thought John was referring to, at least in part. I didn’t suggest anywhere that forgiveness could be demanded or expected simply because someone has apologised.
I asked: if it’s impossible to fully make amends for killing someone (you can’t bring them back), then what might society reasonably demand of the murderer? It was a sincere question, not a sarcastic one. Sure I have a personal stake in this, but it’s also a broader ethical question that I think is very important.
I don’t even know if my brother would want forgiveness; I’ve never asked him. I know that he regrets what he did, every day, with every bit of his mind and body. And I know that this would be no comfort whatsoever to the family of his victim.
For my part, being forgiven for my crimes/misdeeds/ wrongdoings is not something I think I deserve and I’d never dream of asking for it. I know my mum has forgiven me, but that’s my mum for you 🙂
In summary (!!) my apologies if I wasn’t clear enough in my first comment/s. Thanks for your replies; they’re much appreciated and very thought-provoking.
An interesting thought experiment to examine the ‘social balance sheet’ theory of punishment is to consider the case of someone who has been falsely imprisoned for a crime it later becomes clear they didn’t commit.
What happens if after release they actually do commit a crime? Should they be imprisoned; or have they got a ‘freebie’ in the bank as it were?
(the balance sheet model is why things like a history of voluntary work in the community or other public service etc is taken into account as mitigation)
@ Alan
This is tasteless, but I’m imagining someone like Gerry Conlon, on being released from prison:
“All right you fuckers – brace yourselves. My balance sheet needs adjusting!”
@Mish
I don’t think people should stay guilty forever. Of course that excludes some extreme cases, but if someone already spends their life regretting what happened, then I really don’t see the point in society at large making it any worse for them. Of course the people most affected or their families can’t be expected to just forgive (although I think there’s something to be said of those who do) but I still think there’s something deeply wrong with how people are treated even after they come out of prison. That was pretty much my whole point. I don’t really have an answer as to how to make amends, although I think anyone who sincerely seeks forgiveness eventually deserves it. Regarding what to do with people who break the law, I just don’t know. On one hand, I don’t believe anything good comes out of punishment, but on the other there’s the whole idea that it’s also a deterrent, although I don’t know.
Again, I’m biased, so I might just be grasping at straws.
@Alan
Don’t some christian denominations have a concept of penance before even sinning ?
@ John,
Yes, I’m pretty much in agreement with you there. Is it ok to ask about what you call your ‘bias’? The issue of forgiveness clearly resonates with you on a deeply personal level. If not appropriate, then no problems, of course.
@Mish
No need. I should apologize for making you feel as if I didn’t take your questions and feelings seriously. I do *contrite smile*
That said, your questions are kinda beyond the scope of my thinking. I see forgiveness as a personal thing, so societal forgiveness doesn’t really make any sense to me (thus the apostrophes around ‘debt to society). People look back. At its best, society, and the government that represents it, look forward
Speaking of which:
Beyond putting them in prison, I’m not entirely sure. The death penalty is unacceptable, and I personally see a statutory life sentence as basically the same thing. Ideally, the goal is rehabilitation. Easier for some than others. If there is a moral imperative here, it’s not to stop trying. 2nd chances and all. At least that’s the world I wanna live in 🙂
Smarter folks than me can get into the rehabilitation process. After that… back to the world under intense supervision? Again, beyond my scope. And sorry again…
@ mish
We’ve got a film pitch there; and that’s the line for the trailer.
“He paid his debt to society. Now he’s calling in that debt, and society is going to pay”
(Don’t worry about taste, you’ve read some of my stuff)
@ Axe
All good 😀
But then this
Clearly, they’re not beyond the scope of your thinking at all xxx
@Alan
Yes! In the Name of the Father – Redux. If that won’t bring Daniel Day-Lewis in, nothing will! Or has he retired from acting yet again?
@Mish
*shyly looks away*
Trust me, if what I said was in any way worthwhile, nobody’s more surprised than I am… ooo
@Alan
So, sorta Luke Cage:
http://static.srcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/LUKE-CAGE-CLASSIC-570×285.jpg
Got superpowers in prison via an experiment he agreed to in order to reduce his sentence. Broke out, and became a hero. Except he decided he was gonna make the world pay for his help. Any job, no questions asked, cash up front. He lightened up later…
What an apt name! Yes, yes you are!
@Mish
Ehh long story short, I’m pretty much ostracized from where I thought I belonged. Fell in love with the wrong person five years ago, there was an abortion and a shitload of the stigma that comes with that, family now hates me and she does too. Fun part : two months later I went on a 2-week trip hitching rides across the country to clear my mind. That’s how I got kicked out of high school. Less fun : most of my friends met them and became close to them the following year, and apparently decided they had to “pick sides”. Even less fun : it’s been five years and it only seems to be getting worse each year. They also believe the strangest shit about me – and since they won’t believe a word I say, it’s no use telling them, just makes it even worse. Every week or so I get dreams that it’s suddenly fixed, that we finally managed to talk about it, figured out what the hell went wrong and why. That’s why I prefer nightmares : it’s all about the moment when you wake up.
On the plus side, that’s also the whole reason I’ve spent so much time thinking about how we view others based on only one aspect of them, for example The Bad Thing ™. Gets easy to dehumanize them starting from there. Probably also the reason why trolls will cherry-pick the weirdest shit when they don’t know how to react to the core of a message.
Meh. More backspacing. Many overly emotional sentences died to bring this message, and I’m still not satisfied with it, but it’s probably the best I can do right now.
@John
<3
Oh John, I’m so sorry. What horrors you’ve been through, especially for someone only 24.
It’s difficult to hold on to a sense of self, and self-worth, if people are actively challenging that. Granted, I don’t know you very well, but from what I do know, you’re super smart, hilarious, and a sweetheart.
And those dreams, my god – they would make it so much harder to just move on. The feeling you get when you realise that you were only dreaming and it didn’t happen … is there a word for that? When you’re trying desperately to reverse back into the dream but you can’t and then you just lie there – despair in English, I guess, is close.
Thank you for sharing. I’m sorry if it hurt you, though.
This is the first time I’m not told to just get over it and move on and worse stuff happens every day etc
Thank you