Categories
"ethics" a near for men a voice for men antifeminism antifeminist women cassie jaye dan perrins Dean Esmay drama kings men who should not ever be with women ever MGTOW milo misogynoir misogyny MRA pandering paul elam post contains jokes post contains sarcasm red pill reddit

The Red Pill “Documentary” will be showing at a place, and another place, pretty soon

Pursuing solo careers
Pursuing solo careers

Good news everyone! “The Red Pill,” Cassie Jaye‘s long-promised documentary about A Voice for Men that was partly funded by people involved with AVFM and also to a much greater degree by Milo Yiannopoulos fans who want to stick it to feminism, will soon be hitting theaters!

Well, two theaters, in October.

CHECKMATE, FEMINISM!!!1!

The feeling of excitement is palpable at the We Hunted the Mammoth headquarters, though admittedly all of it involves one small cat who for some reason likes to RUN AROUND THE APARTMENT AT BREAKNECK SPEEDS after she poops, and none of it (the excitement, not the poop) involves the A Voice for Men Promo Reel Red Pill documentary at all.

But I can only imagine how excited the general public will be about the film. I mean who wouldn’t be THRILLED by the prospect of seeing a film centered around footage of a three-year-old total failure of a men’s rights rally that seems to have involved a little more than thirty people, with maybe half of them being rally organizers and other AVFM “staffers.”

FUN FACT: In the three years since that “historic” RALLY OF THE CENTURY most of the better-known AVFMers at the rally have ceased to be AVFMers. They quit the band, in other words, and are now pursuing highly unsuccessful solo careers.

In case you can’t read my SUPER LEGIBLE pic above with all the red text on it, here are the highlights, going from left to right, with some helpful links to posts of mine on them.

Nick Reading of Men’s Rights Edmonton … seems to have nothing to do with AVFM any more. I don’t know the details.

Dean Esmay quit AVFM, for reasons that are still unclear, and since then has kept quite busy on Twitter and on YouTube, calling women the c-word; calling feminist women of color “Aunt Jemimahs” [sic]; threatening to literally spit in the faces of some of his MGTOW enemies, and offering helpful gardening tips.

Paul Elam, seen in the pic modeling a very fashionable “I Heart FTSU [F*cking Their Sh*t Up]” t-shirt, just up and quit the men’s rights movement, stepping down as AVFM’s publisher (sort of ) and declaring himself a “former MRA” (kind of). He moved on to his next moneymaking venture, A Near For Men — sorry, An Ear for Men — which involves charging dudes $90 an hour to talk to him on Skype. No, really. His Ear for Men videos and posts, which all seem to end up on AVFM, are pretty much the same sort of crap he used to post there.

And then there’s Attila Vinczer. Hoo boy. Vinczer, formerly AVFM’s “Activism Director,” quit the site in a huff, sending fellow MRAs what I described at the time as “a bitter 8-page ‘Dear Paul’ letter full of accusations and invective and enough self-pity to fill a conference hall.” Then, logging back into his old “editor” account on AVFM, he posted a 4600-word screed attacking Elam, on Elam’s own site. It was deleted, but not before someone — who might have been me, I don’t remember — archived it!

Good times.

Actually, if the Red Pill film gets into this stuff, it might end up being worth watching.

If not, well, it should be a very exciting documentary about people who don’t actually do anything about the problems they claim are all-important, and then give up because activism is hard even if you don’t actually engage in anything that could really be called activism.

Over on AVFM, though, the locals are feeling pretty chuffed.

MGTOW-man has high hopes for the film and some thoughts about my underpants.

For most of my life I have wondered why can’t just one person, or one group, or one voice in mainstream television/communications with the real truth to tell make it into the big mainstream discussion to blurt out the lies being told? Why is it that every single time those speaking never are one of “us” who have nothing but truth to tell?

I hope this movie changes this. No wonder Futrell nearly soiled his undies. He knows the feminist bullies may have just shyt and fell in it …with it finally being in plain sight for the larger population to see.

Ray24, leaning heavily on the Milo Yiannopoulos catchphrase “Feminism is Cancer,” has more measured expecations.

[C]ancer has proven difficult to cure and I have my doubts that the societal cancer of radical feminism will be any easier to get rid of. Still, we have to keep working to find cures for killer diseases like cancer and feminism. I wonder which has caused the most pain & suffering & death, cancer or feminism? :-/

Shrek6 is a bit more confident about the feminism-slaying capabilities of the as-yet-unseen documentary:

I bet the bitches or was that ‘witches?’ Nevertheless, the bitches of East-wick, will do all they can to disrupt the public viewing of this movie.

Seriously though. If this movie is 100% balanced, level, fair and dinky die honest smack down the middle, it will still be a mortal blow to feminism.

On the Men’s Rights subreddit, the reaction has been a bit more mixed, but some of the regulars have given themselves permission to dream big.

Imnotmrabut thinks the film could have a big impact on the presidential election — and beyond!

I’m sure that it’s release prior to November will Stir up quite a set of questions for All Presidential candidates, in the media and leave many voters wondering about new questions.

It will also act as a Thorn in the next US president’s side for their first term, and I’m sure it will be delightfully painful for all in politics. Why worry abut just an election when you can have 4 years of the best show in town and some real ass kicking all for free!

EricAllonde, meanwhile, is looking forward to what he sees as the inevitable FEMINIST RIOTS.

If you remember the feminist riots on campus that we saw for people like Warren Farrell, Milo or even Christina Hoff Sommers – the level of violence by feminists trying to block a screening of this film would be multiple times greater. That would provide fantastic publicity for the film.

Note to anyone thinking about maybe blocking a screening of the film, please don’t. It would provide fantastic publicity for the film.

I, in turn, will do my best to ignore the film. After all, there are more important things to focus on between now and November. We have a Trump to beat.

H/T — r/againstmensrights

Subscribe
Notify of
guest

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

214 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
(((Hambeast))) Now With Extra Parentheses
(((Hambeast))) Now With Extra Parentheses
4 years ago

Ohlmann, was that an autocorrect? Arnica is very different to arsenic! Arnica has a long history as a topical anti inflammatory remedy; best thing I’ve found for bruising.

History Nerd
History Nerd
4 years ago

You need to have the MMR vaccine to attend any public school in California, including the public universities, and there’s no religious or philosophical belief exemption.

I don’t blame women who aborted Down syndrome fetuses because they felt like they weren’t in a position to raise a child with Down syndrome. But that’s all in the context of societal attitudes, a culture of financial wealth = success, and anger at tax money going to pay benefits.

authorialAlchemy
authorialAlchemy
4 years ago

So many people I know who are fans of homeopathy don’t even know what it is. They conflate it with herbal remedies (it doesn’t help that so do some of the companies selling products labeled homeopathic), and refuse to believe the actual claims that homeopathy makes are at all related to homeopathy. Add to that the lack of regulation around herbal remedies and it’s likely the thing you’re paying for is not what it claims to be or what you think it is.

I looked up the difference last night and I feel silly for conflating the two.

Maybe it’s not homeopathy, but the idea that natural is always better is also harmful. I prefer to use herbal stuff alongside typical medication.

I was going to forage for hemp and blackberry leaves to make an anti inflammatory tea for my dad today, but I went swimming instead, lol. Not sure if it works, but it can’t hurt.

mrex
mrex
4 years ago

@SFHC

Ok, thanks. I didn’t see much in my quick google, but I’ll look again. I’m pretty interested in the discussion of how antivax people impact people’s perceptions of autistic people.

The euthanasia discussion is just deeply upsetting for personal reasons. I’ve been involved with other people’s hospice care. I’ve seen their last years. These were capable people, who were rendered disabled, dependent, and vulnerable to caretaker abuse by their illness. This isn’t just some theoretical question to play with and talk about as if it can’t happen to us. This could be our own future we’re debating. Downs folks just get there faster.

@Kupo

So, my kids are vaccinated, and I was happy to give my kids the full shot treatments, because it was safer to do so than not. With that being said, you really are overstating your case;

A. To state the obvious; skipping the MMR vaccine doesn’t cause measles, exposure to the measles virus causes measles. Yes, I know this is common sense. My point is that its not an everyday thing to be exposed to the measles virus, herd immunity and all.

B. Even if every unvaccinated child was actually exposed to the measles virus, only a portion of those exposed would actually develop measles.

C. Even if every unvaccinated child who was exposed to the measles virus developed full blown measles, the death rate from measles is only 1 in every 5,000. Really. I was shocked that the number was that low myself.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
4 years ago

@Hambeast : precisely not an autocorrect, but a quip on the fact that an arsenic-based homeopathic remedy does not actually contain arsenic, as do a non-homeopathic non-arsenic remedy like arnica, so in a sens it can be considered an homeopathic remedy.

I guess a good sign the joke was bad is when one need to explain it.

@mrex : eh, the death rate is still like one hundred time the vaccination problem rate. And any people who rely on herd immunity is someone actually trying to break herd immunity. Leave it to people who actually desesperatly need it, like severely immunodepressed people. Your assertions are terribly dangerous, because anything that lead people to vaccinate less put the one who can’t vaccinate in danger.

Also, saying 1/5000 die is good, but it forget that measle can also induce hepatis, meningitis, and other non fatal heart and brain problems. The page you link do not say the frequency, but all put together something say me it’s more than 1/5000 bad outcome.

(the secondary punch is that all thoses problems happen more frequently on weakened individual. They can be weakened by other conditions, like the other two diseases covered by MMR, or simply by congenital conditions, or the flu, or something like that. But at the moment where you decide to vaccine or not, one have no idea if measle will strike at a convenient time or not. One of the advantage of vaccination is that you do it when the subject is actually in pretty good physical condition overall)

kupo
kupo
4 years ago

@mrex

you really are overstating your case

How so? There is proven risk of death from measels if you do not vaccinate. That is fact. Even if your number were true, and according to WHO and CDC they are not, there’s still a risk. There is no proven risk of getting autism from vaccines. To refuse to vaccinate because of a belief that it might cause autism is to say that risk of death is preferable to autism.

Now for the actual numbers. According to WHO,

Measles is one of the leading causes of death among young children even though a safe and cost-effective vaccine is available.
In 2014, there were 114 900 measles deaths globally – about 314 deaths every day or 13 deaths every hour.
During 2000-2014, measles vaccination prevented an estimated 17.1 million deaths making measles vaccine one of the best buys in public health.

And according to the CDC:

As many as one out of every 20 children with measles gets pneumonia, the most common cause of death from measles in young children.
About one child out of every 1,000 who get measles will develop encephalitis (swelling of the brain) that can lead to convulsions and can leave the child deaf or with intellectual disability.
For every 1,000 children who get measles, one or two will die from it.

(((Hambeast))) Now With Extra Parentheses
(((Hambeast))) Now With Extra Parentheses
4 years ago

Ohlmann – Oops! I re-read and yeah. I’m gonna chalk it up to having Kidbeast here for the summer. Husbeast and I are childless by choice and I’m not used to having a 13-yr. old around. My brain is in meltdown after 6 weeks of Kid playing Minecraft* with friends for 5 hrs. a day. That’s my story and I’m stickin’ with it! FWIW, I usually do get your humor!

*buy why, oh WHY does it sound for all the world like they’re playing Call of Duty?? I thought Minecraft was a nice, calm game where you build things?

kupo
kupo
4 years ago

@Hambeast

buy why, oh WHY does it sound for all the world like they’re playing Call of Duty?? I thought Minecraft was a nice, calm game where you build things?

It also has monsters you can kill. If you’re out at night or in a cave you have to either run away or fight monsters pretty regularly.

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
4 years ago

To expand on some of what kupo mentioned above, measles will weaken your immune system to anything else. People who get measles often end up less able to fight off other diseases for months afterwards, and this can include things otherwise successfully immunized for.

The people who like to cite low numbers for deaths due to measles won’t, of course, include the pneumonia cases that the person might have been able to recover from if they hadn’t had measles two months before.

mrex
mrex
4 years ago

@kupo

“How so? There is proven risk of death from measels if you do not vaccinate.”

You’re overstating because you make parent’s risking measles out to be the equivalent to pushing your child in front of a bus.

Of course there’s a proven risk of death from not vaccinating; much like there’s a proven risk of death from blood clots and heart disease that come from spending a few hours a day sitting on WHTM after a day of sitting at work. The reason why I’m talking about the low complication/death rate of measles is *not* because I disagree with the science that it’s safer to vaccinate than not. Of course it’s safer. The reason why I talk about the low complication/death rate is because I believe that the government only has a right to force a parent to take a certain action over the parent’s objections if the government can prove that the child is likely to die, or be severly injured, otherwise.

Look, I don’t have time right now to go into all the ststistics. Let’s just point out that many Muslims, Jews, and Christians have religous reservations about vaccines, and as a privileged agnostic it’s not my place to shit on their beliefs. (And it’s not your place either). I’ll get to the statistics later.

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
4 years ago

mrex:
Of course, the government is not forcing parents to vaccinate anywhere that I know of.

All they’re usually doing is saying that if you don’t, you aren’t allowed to bring your children into a public school where they might infect everybody else.

Also, the mainstreams of all three of the religions you listed have no problems with vaccines that I am aware of. Most of the discussion I’ve seen from Jewish sites focuses on the obligation to guard your own health. I’m not saying that there aren’t members of all three that have problems (mostly members of subgroups like Christian Scientists that have problems with any modern medicine) but you are overstating your own case.

In many ways vaccines have been victims of their own success, as people forget just how much damage diseases like measles used to do.

kupo
kupo
4 years ago

@mrex
I didn’t shit on any religious beliefs. I specifically referred to those who choose not to vaccinate because they believe that vaccines cause autism.

Edit: Also I did not make not vaccinating out to be the same as shoving a kid in front of a bus. You inferred that. I simply said there is a risk of getting measles, which can be fatal, and that there is not a risk of getting autism from vaccinating.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
4 years ago

I didn’t see much in my quick google, but I’ll look again.

Y… You’re shitting me, right? Hundreds of anti-vaxxers saying that they’d rather watch their own children die in horrible agony than not-actually-risk them being like me, and it’s “Not much”?!

*reads the rest of the thread*

Oh, nevermind. You’re an anti-vaxxer without the conviction to admit it. Swell.

mrex
mrex
4 years ago

@kupo,

“I din’t sit on any religious beliefs.”

You are if you don’t believe that people should be able to take religious/moral exemptions and still send their kids to school or daycare. You’re putting people with religious/moral beliefs that are different than ours in a position where the mother cannot work, and the kids don’t have access to the government-funded schooling that is their birthright.

“I specifically referred to those who choose not to vaccinate because they believe that vaccines cause autism.”

If you did, then where? This is what you started with;

“They’d rather risk their children dying from preventable diseases than “risk” their child becoming autistic.”

Here, “they”, refers to “the entire antivax movement.” The “entire antivax movement” includes not just those who believe that vaccines cause autism, but also people with religious and moral objections to vaccines. Look, it’s fair if you don’t have a problem with people taking moral/religious exemptions. I’m not telling you otherwise, BUT, since you never said this until I brought it up, don’t be mad if I was confused.

“I simply said there is a risk of getting measles, which can be fatal, and that there is not a risk of getting autism from vaccinating.”

Fair enough. Yes this was my interpretation, and was not literally what you said. I did think that you seemed to be hinting that being anti-vax is a big risk for death. If you actually think that it is a small risk, although a risk that need not be taken because we have vaccines, well we agree. We have nothing to argue. 🙂

You gave me some numbers before with the total cases of death that measles causes worldwide. Those numbers are out of context.

For example, complications from the flu and Upper Respiratory Infections kill millions every year; many times more than measles currently does. BUT, this does not take into account that there are billions of upper respiratory infections every year, while currently 85% of the world population is vaccinated against measles and won’t catch it. So we need to actually compare the number of deaths to the numbers of infections.

Second, there are things such as malnourishment and AIDs that will make measles very dangerous in developing countries, but are very rare in the US. So if we are going to talk about anti-vaxers in the US, we have to use death rates from the US.

So, what is the death rate from Measles —and it’s complications— in the US? It’s .3%. I don’t have time to spend searching, so I’m going to cut corners and go with Wikipedia here;

Between 1987 and 2000, the case fatality rate across the United States was three measles-attributable deaths per 1000 cases, or 0.3%.

Here’s the citation Wiki links to;

Perry RT, Halsey NA (May 1, 2004). “The Clinical Significance of Measles: A Review”. The Journal of Infectious Diseases. 189 (S1): S4–16. doi:10.1086/377712. PMID 15106083.

@Jenora

“In many ways vaccines have been victims of their own success, as people forget just how much damage diseases like measles used to do.

They also are victims of people forgetting just what the diseases were. Measles, Mumps, and Rubella were once ubiquitous in the population, much chickenpox was 30 years ago. Literally everyone got them, and in fact people born before a certain point in the US don’t have to get the MMR vaccine, because they are assumed to have acquired natural immunity when they caught measles, mumps, and rubella as children.

If we could develop a vaccine against the millions of viruses that cause respiratory infections, in 50 years all we would be talking about the millions of lives that the vaccines have saved, and respiratory infections would seem scary and exotic.

“Of course, the government is not forcing parents to vaccinate anywhere that I know of.”

See what I told kupo at the top about forcing the mother to choose between her sincere beliefs and work/school.

“All they’re usually doing is saying that if you don’t, you aren’t allowed to bring your children into a public school where they might infect everybody else.”

Infect whom? The MMR vaccine is highly effective. If you’ve been vaccinated, you should not develop symptomatic measles, even if someone else near you does.

This isn’t just about schoolchildren. A while back I was subjected to a xenophobic rant from an elderly person about how illegal immigrants/refugees/foreigners are bringing measles (this was during an outbreak) and placing my kids at risk. Guess what? No, they’re not at risk. My kids are vaccinated, so suck it.

“Also, the mainstreams of all three of the religions you listed have no problems with vaccines that I am aware of”

Yes, this is correct. And irrelevant. 😉

@SFHC

“Hundreds of anti-vaxxers saying that they’d rather watch their own children die in horrible agony than not-actually-risk them being like me, and it’s “Not much”?!”

“Not much” means that I had 10 minutes to do the google search and literally everything that I read during that short-period of time was from pro-vaxxers, not anti-vaxxers. So yes, I there was “not much” from the mouths of anti-vaxxers. I’m not disbelieving you, I just didn’t spend the time to sort through the results. Yet.

Or, you could point me to some specific examples, and not a google search to lug through. You know, give a girl a hand. 🙂

“Oh, nevermind. You’re an anti-vaxxer without the conviction to admit it. Swell.

Oh boy, this has me laughing. How can an anti-vaxxer be glad to vax her children? Please explain this tortured logic, I really want to hear it.

I explained my reservations before, which incidentally, have absolutely nothing to do with my own personal beliefs towards vaccination. I don’t have to be religious to think that people, including religious people, have ultimate knowledge of their own bodies, and their children’s bodies. Nor do I have to believe that vaccines cause autism, or that autistic people are subhuman, to ban kids from school/camp because of some personal decision that really doesn’t effect me, or put me at any risk.

As I said, unless you can demonstrate clear risk of death or injury to a specific individual, the government has no right to interfere, or discriminate in schooling, either.

Lets face it, there’s a lot of sexism going on here as well. It’s why Jenny McCarthy is some stupid, bimbo ex-stripper for being anti-vax, but Jim Carey, well let’s discuss things rationally. We have a strong current in our society that says that women don’t really know their own bodies, or their children’s, and have no rights to disagree with the “experts”.

This isn’t some anti-doctor or anti-science rant. Science is slow to gain new information. Doctors are biased (like everyone). Since science and medicine are not perfect, a person’s health, and their children’s health, are ultimately their own responsibility. And as such, people have every right to make dumb decisions.

@Olhmann

“Your assertions are terribly dangerous, because anything that lead people to vaccinate less put the one who can’t vaccinate in danger.

Nurses and others who are caretakers for the very sick have no excuse and need to go through full vaccinations. Flu, MMRV, the works. If they can’t, or won’t, get vaccinated, they should find another career. This situation is a clear threat to a specific individual, not a vague threat that may or may not happen if and when all the stars align.

Question I’m curious about; when was the last time you had a flu shot? Are you up to date on all your booster shots (such as Tdap)? Tdap is very important, it wears off, hence the whooping cough epidemics that seem to go around. I wonder how many people here are up to date?

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
4 years ago

Shorter mrex:

It’s okay to push your child into the road if there’s only a .3% risk of the child being run over by a bus.

In addition, not allowing religious people to push people in front of buses is bigoted.

weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo

You don’t have a right to make willfully dumb decisions that might harm others. That’s like saying there shouldn’t be laws against drunk driving because people should be free to make dumb decisions.

And so what if everyone used to get measles? Yes they did. And lots of people died. A .3% death rate doesn’t sound like much, but apply it to the global population and by my kind of drunk and possibly erroneous calculations, that’s over 200 million deaths. I don’t see why it’s acceptable for people to die of a preventable disease today just because people did in the past.

Oh, and vaccines are very effective but not 100% effective. There’s still a non zero risk of catching a disease you’ve been vaccinated against if you’re exposed. That’s why herd immunity is necessary.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
4 years ago

Legally speaking, religion falls under strict scrutiny

To satisfy the strict scrutiny, suspect classifications such as race, alienage, or national origin must be necessary to promote a compelling state interest when there is no less restrictive alternative method available to accomplish the government (state’s) interest

I’d think that preventing an outbreak is a “compelling state interest”. The question becomes whether or not mandating vaccination for school is the least restrictive way to go about it. Considering that basically nobody in this country has a religious exemption, I’m not sure what the less restrictive solution would be

Any ideas?

@mrex

Lets face it, there’s a lot of sexism going on here as well…

Is you serious? The fuck did that come from?

Catalpa
Catalpa
4 years ago

I did think that you seemed to be hinting that being anti-vax is a big risk for death. If you actually think that it is a small risk, although a risk that need not be taken because we have vaccines, well we agree.

The more idiots there are who refuse to vaccinate their children, the bigger the risk becomes, because it allows more vectors for the disease to spread and greatly compromises herd immunity. I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t be a linear increase in risk, either, more like an exponential one, but I haven’t run the math on this. So the risk may be small now, but not later, if the antivax sentiment spreads.

“All they’re usually doing is saying that if you don’t, you aren’t allowed to bring your children into a public school where they might infect everybody else.”

Infect whom? The MMR vaccine is highly effective. If you’ve been vaccinated, you should not develop symptomatic measles, even if someone else near you does.

Sure. And if there’s only ONE kid in the school who hasn’t been vaccinated, then there’s no problem, because of herd immunity. But you’re arguing that ALL unvaccinated children should be going to daycare and school, where they could infect each other (and have a non-zero chance of infecting vaccinated children as well, not to mention children who may be too young to be vaccinated yet). But I suppose unvaccinated kids don’t matter, so long as YOUR kids are vaccinated? That seems a bit cold.

I don’t have to be religious to think that people, including religious people, have ultimate knowledge of their own bodies, and their children’s bodies.

Emphasis mine. I’m arguably fine with people deciding to endanger their own health for whatever reasons they have. Don’t want to get chemotherapy for your cancer? Hey, it’s your body. You make the call on that one. There are legitimate reasons that someone might not want to go through that.

But your kid’s body is NOT your body, and denying your children proper medical aid is neglect and it is wrong.

Do you also support people refusing to allow their children to receive blood transfusions, or who take their very sick children to faith healers instead of a hospital? After all, they must know their child’s body best, mustn’t they?

Paradoxical Intention - Resident Cheeseburger Slut

Not to mention herd immunity helps those who can’t be vaccinated.

Newborn babies, pregnant people, people on chemo therapy, the immune deficient. None of these people can get all their vaccines, if any of them.

So, what happens when little Jimmy or Jane or some other kid comes to school without their vaccines? They could be carrying a disease that could infect their pregnant teacher, or other students who have newborn siblings could carry that disease home because they were vaccinated, or what if they have a family member who’s on chemo?

They’re going to get sick. And there’s a good chance they’ll die because of it. So, should they be denied their “birthright” of a government-funded education so they don’t die so little Jimmy and Jane’s parents can be all smug that their religious beliefs are being catered to?

(We could get into the idea of separation of church and state, which is a US mandate that states that we won’t make laws favoring any religion over another, since our country was founded on the idea of religious freedom, but I figure this is enough to chew on for now.)

So, should someone’s religious beliefs (which I assume are that of a loving god/s/goddess/es) should be put above other people’s lives?

Full offense, but that smacks of the kind of logic that rabidly religious anti-LGBT people use. “Our religion is more important than your rights, and your lives! Our god says you’re wrong, so we’ll torture you, force you to kill yourself, or facilitate your death!” The only difference is that the anti-LGBT bigots take actions against people directly.

When I hear this “you’re a bigot against my religion!” argument from anti-vaxx people. I hear “I want to put other people’s lives in danger instead of understand what other people are telling me about their safety and the safety of their loved ones!”

(Of course, I could gently remind them that people like me or people thought to be of my religious persuasion used to be burned at the stake because of religion, but that seems a little petty.)

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
4 years ago

@PI

that people like me used to be burned at the stake

LGBT+ people, Pagans, or opinionated women? Cos you’re a threefer 😛

kupo
kupo
4 years ago

@mrex
You’re putting a shit ton of words in my mouth and I’m not going to bother addressing them individually because you’re making up arguments I never made nor implied.

I only ever commented on autism. That’s it. I addressed a comment that someone made where they were asking about the concept of parents preferring death of autistic children. I gave one example. Someone else gave the example of aborting if gene markers are present. You’ve not paid any attention to what I’ve actually said and you’ve assumed my stance is the same as all other anti-anti-vaxxers (as if there’s some collective consensus on the matter). If you paid any attention to the conversation you would know that “they” doesn’t apply to all anti-vaxxers because the topic only came up as part of a discussion about autism.

My actual belief is that individuals should be allowed the choice to refuse any medical treatment. However, in the case of children it’s complicated because patents can abuse children by refusing medical treatment and children can’t always understand the risks involved with the choices they make. In the case of necessary medical care I think a third party should be able to advocate for the child, such as CPS. In the case of preventative care, like vaccines, I think that’s too extreme. That said, I think that public schools should be able to have rules about vaccination and that religious exemptions should not be made for that.

Handsome "These Pretzels Suck" Jack (formerly Pandapool)

All I know about vaccinations is that ever since anti-vaxxers started rising, so has the outbreak of measles and thus the rise of easily preventable deaths. Also, the polio vaccine was mandated, pretty sure without religious exception, and look, no polio outbreaks in the US in decades. Pretty sure it’s actually officially eradicated from the United States if not North America.

I mean, people can exempt themselves religiously from a lot of things, but when it involves the possible death of babies, children and minors in general, I think lives trump religion.

I’m also pretty sure it’s super easy for anti-vaxxers who aren’t religious or don’t have a religion that’s against vaccination to lie about that. I mean, some places you just need to fill out a forum, some a card. Easy to forge, easy to pretend. I’ve stumbled across websites that tell you how to get religious exemptions, here’s one right here. In fact, there’s people in the comment sections saying a real neat trick to keep your children from being vaccinated is to not take them for checkups.

Real great parenting there. Religious exemptions FTW!

EJ (The Other One)
4 years ago

a real neat trick to keep your children from being vaccinated is to not take them for checkups.

What.

mrex
mrex
4 years ago

@IP

“Shorter mrex:

It’s okay to push your child into the road if there’s only a .3% risk of the child being run over by a bus.

And why not? I push my kids into the road every day. They are on bikes. After riding our bikes we took our car to the park. (Cars kill millions every year). At the park we watched a bunch of other people’s 4 year olds play full tackle (American) football while we climbed up rocks where we could have fallen and been seriously injured, or even died. Afterwards, we went swimming at the beach, where there was no lifeguard, because there never is one. If anything happened, we could have all drowned.

It was an awesome day. The horror.

@PI

Newborn babies, pregnant people, people on chemo therapy, the immune deficient. None of these people can get all their vaccines, if any of them.

Yeah, pregnant women and young infants can’t be vaccinated with MMR, the rest generally can. (Generally). But that begs the question as to why the pregnant woman didn’t get herself vaccinated well before she got pregnant, since I’m assuming that she’s an adult making her own medical decisions and all.

So, what happens when little Jimmy or Jane or some other kid comes to school without their vaccines? They could be carrying a disease that could infect their pregnant teacher, or other students who have newborn siblings could carry that disease home because they were vaccinated, or what if they have a family member who’s on chemo?”

A. I’m not suggesting that we send sick kids to school. I know that the risk of transmission is not zero even in children that appear to be healthy, but that’s with everything. The risk of transmission from healthy, nonvaccinated children is very, very low.

B. according to the CDC these outbreaks are all originating from outside the US. The one I was referring to occurred in a bunch of Amish that visited disneyworld. Someone who just came from overseas, probably a tourist from another country (no vaccine regulations on who can enter our country, y’know), went to Disneyworld sick with measles and infected only the unvaccinated Amish. No pregnant teachers, no newborn babies at home, no relatives with chemo, and in fact schools were not involved in any way. Funny that.

So if you’re so worried about the unvaccinated, forcing only school children to get the vaccines is not enough. You need to get your own boosters, if you’re out of date. And I’m waiting for that xenophobic rant from you, which I know will never come, because you’re not an asshole.

@Cat

“So the risk may be small now, but not later, if the antivax sentiment spreads.

Even in countries that don’t legally compel vaccinations usually still have very high vaccination rates. Because most people will get their vaccines, on their own, with proper education.

Because when people are forced to vaccinate against their beliefs, then they start keeping their kids home from school (while not wanting to homeschool), start skipping medical checkups, and all that shit.

“Do you also support people refusing to allow their children to receive blood transfusions, or who take their very sick children to faith healers instead of a hospital? After all, they must know their child’s body best, mustn’t they?”

Yes, as long as the child’s life is not in danger. I was pretty explicit before. Unless the child’s life is explicitly on the line, the government/CPS needs to buzz off.

You know, I used to date an ex-Jehovah’s Witness. His family was lovely. (Dunno if he had his shots. I’m assuming so). I’m not in the business of deciding who reads the bible the right way, what religion is a “real” religion with real beliefs, whether beliefs are sincerely held, or any of that.

@Kupo “Youvve not paid any attention to what I’ve actually said and you’ve assumed my stance is the same as all other anti-anti-vaxxers”

I don’t think you were clear about that, (and to be fair, SFHC wasn’t being clear either). Or, maybe the misunderstanding was all me. It’s pointless to argue as long as we’re on the same page now. 🙂

RE; vaccine failure. Yes, no vaccine is perfect, some are better than others. MMR is generally extremely effective, especially if you’re getting it in the developed world. (Better storage/infrastructure, more effective (and expensive) vaccines used).

Catalpa
Catalpa
4 years ago

Yes, as long as the child’s life is not in danger. I was pretty explicit before. Unless the child’s life is explicitly on the line, the government/CPS needs to buzz off.

And of course these people are definitely going to abandon their long-held beliefs when their child’s life is ACTUALLY in danger, instead of assuming what they’ve done all along will work just fine and then letting their kid die.

I suppose CPS should just magically KNOW when the kid is in actual medical danger and only interfere then.

mrex
mrex
4 years ago

@Catalpa

“I suppose CPS should just magically KNOW when the kid is in actual medical danger and only interfere then.”

That would be why it’s so important to get these kids into public school, so they can be monitored by teachers.

What, exactly, is your solution? Should religions with controversial beliefs be barred from having children? Should they behave in ways that they believe endanger their children’s souls? Should doctors be looked to as the experts on the immortal soul?

Or, let’s take religion completely out of this. Should parents be allowed to disagree with their children’s doctors at all? If so, when?

@Axe, I see I missed you. I’ll get to you after/if Catalpa responds, as my answers to both of you will likely be related.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
4 years ago

This is what I get for taking Mrex off my mental block list for five minutes.

Paradoxical Intention - Resident Cheeseburger Slut

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger | August 20, 2016 at 1:02 am
LGBT+ people, Pagans, or opinionated women? Cos you’re a threefer 😛

Well, that is a good point, but I was referring specifically to being pagan, in comparison to the idea of religious persecution. Which does smack of Oppression Olympics, but I think this gets a pass for how pants-on-head nonsense the idea of “I can’t put my children in danger of easily preventable diseases! But my religion says it’s okay!”

mrex | August 20, 2016 at 7:31 am
Yeah, pregnant women and young infants can’t be vaccinated with MMR, the rest generally can. (Generally). But that begs the question as to why the pregnant woman didn’t get herself vaccinated well before she got pregnant, since I’m assuming that she’s an adult making her own medical decisions and all.

Who said she didn’t? I was mentioning her because her fetus can’t get vaccinated. A fetus can get sick while still in the womb, and it’s the reason we don’t vaccinate people while pregnant.

A. I’m not suggesting that we send sick kids to school. I know that the risk of transmission is not zero even in children that appear to be healthy, but that’s with everything. The risk of transmission from healthy, nonvaccinated children is very, very low.

I never said “send sick kids to school”, nor suggested that you did. I said that if a child isn’t vaccinated, there’s also a chance that they could be carrying a disease that has a non-zero chance of infecting even the vaccinated kids, or a greater chance of infecting the other non-vaccinated kids.

And even if the chances are very, very low, why should we even allow a very, very low chance? Why take a gamble with people’s lives, even if it’s a very, very low one, and we have a very simple, easy way of preventing it?

B. according to the CDC these outbreaks are all originating from outside the US. The one I was referring to occurred in a bunch of Amish that visited disneyworld. Someone who just came from overseas, probably a tourist from another country (no vaccine regulations on who can enter our country, y’know), went to Disneyworld sick with measles and infected only the unvaccinated Amish. No pregnant teachers, no newborn babies at home, no relatives with chemo, and in fact schools were not involved in any way. Funny that.

Source on the CDC stuff, please.

And that’s just from a one-time contact. In schools, these kids are going to be in contact with other people for about eight hours a day, five days a week, for a majority of the year. Far more chances for spreading a disease than a day or two trip to Disneyland.

So if you’re so worried about the unvaccinated, forcing only school children to get the vaccines is not enough. You need to get your own boosters, if you’re out of date.

Good thing I already did that then, isn’t it? And it’s a good thing I’m encouraging other people to do it as well, and it’s a good thing I never said that we only need to vaccinate school children and was simply discussing that because it was one particular area of concern and related back to a previous comment I made about California’s new vaccination law. And it’s a good thing that happened to be the topic of discussion.

Nice assumptions you have there.

And I’m waiting for that xenophobic rant from you, which I know will never come, because you’re not an asshole.

Then why the fuck are you waiting for one? Or, better yet, what prompted you to even say this? What the fuck made you think that this was appropriate to say, if I’m not an asshole who would make xenophobic rants?

Catalpa
Catalpa
4 years ago

That would be why it’s so important to get these kids into public school, so they can be monitored by teachers.

If the kid isn’t at risk to infect others, sure. People who bring their kid with congenital problems to faith healers shouldn’t be banned from sending their kid to public school, that would be frigging stupid. There’s no risk to anyone else, and it would only be helpful for the child.

(Of course, most of the extreme religions I’ve come across do homeschooling anyway, because it’s a better way to isolate their children from any other influences, so this point is a bit moot.)

Should they behave in ways that they believe endanger their children’s souls?

If “protecting their children’s immortal souls” means abusing or neglecting them? Yes, they should be banned from doing that. There are plenty of religious people who send their LGBT children to conversion camps or subject them to other inhumane treatment in order to “fix them” and “save their souls” and it’s FUCKING WRONG.

If someone demonstrates a belief that makes them likely to deny their children’s basic needs of food, shelter, safety, and medical attention, then they should at the very least be monitored regularily to make sure that they are not doing that, whether or not the belief is religious.

Should parents be allowed to disagree with their children’s doctors at all? If so, when?

When the risk of serious harm from ignoring the doctor is negligible, or when the treatment suggested carries significant risks and other options are available to consider.

Handsome "These Pretzels Suck" Jack (formerly Pandapool)

a real neat trick to keep your children from being vaccinated is to not take them for checkups.

What.

Well, you know, better your child be unhealthy, slowly dying of a disease that could have been caught earlier, and/or than full of chemicals or autistic, like their god(s) intended, I guess.

And about “negotiable risks”:

I brought this up before and I’ll bring it up again: We don’t have polio in the US any more because of vaccines. Literally we eradicated that shit in a few decades.

Now that people aren’t vaccinating as much as they should, we’ve got several preventable diseases increasing in outbreak sizes. Literally the less people vaccinate, the more people get sick.

Now tell me, why should any chance of sickness and/or death be negotiable when we can literally obliterate the chance of getting sick or dying at all with vaccines?

Bina
4 years ago

I’m back here kinda late after the thread blowed up, but…

@Fruitloopsie:

Sending Love and hugs to ya ❤️

And @Kat:

Hugs if you want them. I’m so glad that the lesion proved to be benign.

Thanks! For a few months there, I was definitely on pins and needles. I had the lesion (not even a lump, just a speck of microcalcification) out in July. And thanking the Powers That Be that I live in Ontario, where public health insurance covers the tests and treatments, rather than right across the lake, where Aetna is throwing shitfits at not being allowed to gobble up even MORE money. If MRAsshats want to compare something to cancer, a lack of coherent public healthcare would certainly come close.

Paradoxical Intention - Resident Cheeseburger Slut

From Catalpa’s helpful links:

Back in 1944, the Supreme Court ruled that parental authority cannot interfere with a child’s welfare, even in cases of religious expression. “The right to practice religion freely,” the court concluded, “does not include liberty to expose… [a] child… to ill health or death.”

[…]

But there is one piece of literature that should be taken from the Court’s 1944 decision: “Parents may be free to become martyrs themselves, but…they are not free, in identical circumstances, to make martyrs of their children.”

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
4 years ago

What, exactly, is your solution? Should religions with controversial beliefs be barred from having children? Should they behave in ways that they believe endanger their children’s souls? Should doctors be looked to as the experts on the immortal soul?

When I was a kid, a friend of mine was in an accident. If she’d been given a blood transfusion, she would’ve been up and running the next day, but her parents were Jehova’s Witnesses and refused it. She died an hour later.

Can I request a banhammering for Mrex? I don’t think she’s ever posted anything worthwhile – mostly endless whining about how much she hated parenting her kids – and I have zero tolerance for FUCKING CHILD MURDER APOLOGISTS.

Bina
4 years ago

@AsAboveSoBelow:

I always figured they felt lighter. Based on the deposits one of my cats makes, I’m sure she does.

Very glad you’re going to be all right, Bina. <3

Thanks! Best part is, I had a good-looking surgeon, and a very competent lady anesthetist. MISAAAANDRY!!!

And yeah. There’s bound to be a lot of good evolutionary explanations for the kitty-post-poop wildings. Dating back to when they all were wild things, no doubt.

Although it’s my unhumble opinion that we didn’t domesticate cats, but rather the other way around. At least that’s the impression I get, judging by the way my kitty has me trained. Just the smallest, most pitiful “mwowwww” out of her gets me hopping!

@theseventhguest:

Hasn’t feminism helped the fight against cancer?
By getting people to notice and work on breast, cervical, and ovarian cancer.
By making sure that drugs and therapies are tested on women (almost) as well as men.
By expanding the pool of cancer researchers and doctors.
By having the conversation around sexual health and condom use.
Even by making a wife’s opinion of her husbands health important enough that he will go for a checkup if asked.
All of these things increase survival rates or even prevent some cancers.

All of the above, plus the fact that women feel confident enough to talk with their doctors, instead of cowering in shame and denial over a disease that threatens to “rob them of their femininity”, as they used to do in the Bad Old Days, when “female” cancers (breast, uterine, ovarian, cervical) were barely whispered about, and considered something of a scandal or an aspersion on a woman’s character.

And the fact that more women ARE doctors now, which makes a huge difference too in terms of patient confidence. My primary-care physician is a woman, for instance…as is the one who performed my first manual pelvic exam, when I was 14. All those things have had a huge positive impact on my own ability to confidently navigate my own health care.

All in all, I’d say that feminism (in medicine and in general) has SAVED lives. Women’s lives, in particular. No wonder MRAsshats hate it.

sevenofmine
sevenofmine
4 years ago

@mrex

Should religions with controversial beliefs be barred from having children? Should they behave in ways that they believe endanger their children’s souls? Should doctors be looked to as the experts on the immortal soul?

Or, let’s take religion completely out of this. Should parents be allowed to disagree with their children’s doctors at all? If so, when?

What a bunch of utterly dishonest questions. Denying life saving medical attention to someone under your care is not legal, regardless of one’s excuse for doing it. The addition of religious beliefs to the equation doesn’t make a difference. It’d be like advocating for anti-trans bathroom bills on the grounds that you’re concerned about assault: assault is already illegal. There’s no reason for bathroom bills other than to persecute trans people and there’s no reason for you to frame it this way unless you’re trying to insinuate that people here are motivated by similar desires.

With regard to disagreeing with doctors: as a defense of neglect charges, caretakers should be required to show that they have a scientific basis for their disagreement.

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
4 years ago

If I, hypothetically, believed with absolute, genuine sincerity and conviction that vaccinations were to be condemned and avoided on political grounds I wouldn’t get an exemption from getting my kids vaccinated. If I believed with absolute sincerity and conviction that vaccinations were contributing to the loss of my cultural heritage, I wouldn’t get an exemption from getting my kids vaccinated. So why on earth should I get an exemption on religious grounds? It makes no sense to me.

Politically, culturally and religiously we are,, quite rightly, free to think what we like and to engage in any behaviour we like within the law, including putting ourselves at risk and potentially harming ourselves. We are not necessarily entitled to break the law, or to put others at risk or harm others.

I guess I don’t really get why there are religious exemptions from vaccination :-\ (mind you, I also think that parents should never be allowed to subject their children to body modifications that are not medically required, and therefore that only when people reach whatever is the agreed age of adulthood in their society (such as, when they can vote/drive/etc.) can they then decide for themselves whether or not they want pierced ears, genital modification or tattoos etc.)

Joekster
Joekster
4 years ago

OH wow, this thread seems to have wandered into antivax land, something I care very much about.

I was taking notes on specific things I wanted to reply to specific people about, but I’m late to the thread, and the last time I tried to do that, the result was a massive wall of text that left some people thinking I was ignoring them, and others thinking I held positions I don’t actually support, so I’ll not reply to anyone specifically for now.

Also, you all seem to be doing a wonderful job discussing the specifics. I’m not sure if mrex is a weak antivaxxer or simply over impressed with religious freedom. I really don’t. However, someone mentioned Jehova’s Wittnesses, and we do permit them to refuse transfusions on religious grounds, even if it t is the only way to save their life (I saw a patient just like that on Hospice two weeks ago). The difference is, in that case, it is only the patient at risk. By not vaccinating a child, the entire community is at risk. Even the mmr vaccine requires a 90% vaccination rate to protect those who cannot be vaccinated.

Joekster
Joekster
4 years ago

I do have a few things to add to the overall discussion.

1) the cdc now recommends that adults over the age of 60 receive the TDaP vaccine (tetanus, diphtheria, and acellular pertussis) instead of just the tetanus booster. The reason for that is that pertussis (otherwise known as ‘whooping cough’) has started to crop up again, and the elderly are much more vulnerable for this particular bug. Also, the ‘acellular’ part of ‘acellular pertussis’ means that the pertussis vaccine loses effectiveness after about fifty years or so.

2) in case anyone runs into people arguing, ‘but vaccines don’t work’, I would like to point out that we have had to start giving a new vaccine to the elderly for pneumonia. Why? Because the strains covered by the older vaccine are no longer the most prevalent strains. Most likely, that’s because we’ve been vaccinating against them for the past 20 years. These things work.

3) Measels was eradicated in the US in the 1990’s. Now it’s back. If I believed in Hell, I would believe it holds a special place for Andrew Wakefield.

4) fun historical note: I’ve read that at Valley Forge, General George Washington forced all of his soldiers to get the smallpox innoculation. Although that innoculation killed something like 1/100 people who got it, the fact that the remainder were immune to smallpox gave the continental army a huge advantage when they faced the Hessians. If anyone reading this who is an actual historian would fact-check me, that would be great. But if it’s true, it’s a quite persuasive story.

Finally, the man who developed the MMR vaccine grew up just outside Billings, Montana. He’s still celebrated as a local hero.

My apologies if this ran on a bit.

Joekster
Joekster
4 years ago

One last post so I can click, ‘notify me of follow up comments by email’. Frack ADHD.

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
4 years ago

@mrex

If you push your kids into the road every day, like you say you do, with a 0.3% chance of getting hit by a bus, your kids will be dead within a year. But I guess that’s fine, since your “controversial beliefs” are more important than a child’s life.

Joekster
Joekster
4 years ago

@IP amen, I say again, amen.

The mind boggling thing is, when similar situations show up in healthcare in the states, such as when a child is denied a lifesaving blood transfusion because of the parents beliefs, or when parents refuse to vaccinate, it almost always winds up in the courts.

Anisky
Anisky
4 years ago

Sorry, this is from a while back now, but everyone covered everything I’d say about anti-vaxxers as well as I could, I think. The most important point being, to me, that the more people refuse to vaccinate their kids, the higher the chance of people getting, say, measles is; even if the rate is 0.3% now, that number goes up with each child who isn’t vaccinated.

Anyway.

Ohlmann:

I have the habit to say that an herbal remedie that was proved to work is called a medicinal drug. That and the chronic reliability problem of the herbal industry make me warier of herbal remedies than homeopathy. At least, homeopathy won’t give me cancer or poison me.

I like to go for the direct quote from Tim Minchin (or maybe he’s quoting someone else, it’s possible):

“Do you know what they call alternative medicine that’s been proved to work?
“Medicine.”

It’s from a short animated movie/comedic beat poem of his, “Storm”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U

It’s also very atheist and anti-supernatural as well as anti-alternative medicine, though, for anyone that bothers.

Catalpa
Catalpa
4 years ago

The most important point being, to me, that the more people refuse to vaccinate their kids, the higher the chance of people getting, say, measles is; even if the rate is 0.3% now, that number goes up with each child who isn’t vaccinated.

Technically the 0.3% was only the chance of dying from measles once it was already contracted. Because apparently death is the only factor that matters when it comes to health. If the child is only suffering, or is going to be permanently affected by a weakened immune system or other consequences of the disease, then it doesn’t matter and people shouldn’t interfere because all parents know their children’s bodies best. /Sarcasm

kupo
kupo
4 years ago

On the topic of herbal remedies vs. medicine, it’s not true that all herbal remedies which have been proven to work are called drugs. Perhaps the active ingredient can be extracted and sold as a drug, but sometimes the plant form is more pleasant although probably more variable. If I eat pineapple for its anti-inflammatory properties it still works even if pineapple isn’t classified as a drug or regulated by the FDA.

Anisky
Anisky
4 years ago
Reply to  kupo

@Kupo: Well, that’s part of why I prefer the “What do you call alternative medicine that’s been proven to work? Medicine” formulation of the idea. Nobody (well, nobody we’d consider to be rational participants in this discussion) would argue that it’s not perfectly valid medical advice for a doctor to suggest I eat more vegetables and fewer fried foods, for example. Whereas “alternative medicine” is literally, even with its very name, setting itself up in opposition to “Westernized”, empiricism-based medicine.

Although since I didn’t use the word “drug”, I guess you may have intended it to be obvious that you weren’t replying to me. 😛

I’d argue that once there are enough rigorous scientific studies that prove the anti-inflammatory effects of pineapple, then it IS included inside “mainstream medicine”. My Melatonin has the “Has not been evaluated by the FDA” notice on the bottle, but both my psychiatrist and my primary care physician recommended it, and neither classed it as “alternative medicine”. Nor has any doctor of mine suggested that ingesting ginger is a medically unsound way of dealing with mild nausea.

Also, does anyone else find their computer crashing constantly when on We Hunted the Mammoth? It’s a huge reason I don’t post very much– it constantly crashes when I’m trying to post (I had to write this in a word processor and copy/paste and even the copy/paste has taken several tries).

@Catalpa: Whoops, missed that bit! But yeah, three in a thousand children dying from something 100% preventable is still deeply horrible.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
4 years ago

@Anisky
It might be the graphic overload (or whatever technical term). Depending on your device, there should be a plug in/add on/I’m no good with computers that lets you stop gifs from cycling unless you want em to. Just an example. Look around and see

joekster
joekster
4 years ago

@Anisky: thank you. You reply was exactly what I was thinking, and phrased appropriately.

People have this image of ‘Western Medicine’ as something that is static and resistant to change, and I’m sure that there are many physicians long out of training who are resistant to new ideas. However, modern medicine is science-based, and we do change our practice habits in response to new data. There was a saying going around when I was in medical school: ‘in ten year, half of what we teach you here will be proven false. Unfortunately, we have no idea which half’. There is significant truth to this, in that medicine is always changing. That is why physician are required to pursue CME (which has its own flaws, which I’m willing to discuss more if anyone is interested).

Some examples:

Cranberry juice for urinary tract infection: now well validated, and I advise it to all of my patients with recurrent UTI’s. However, you have to drink the unsweetened stuff: most of the ‘cranberry juice’ in the supermarket has enough sugar in it to rot your teeth, and the bacteria that cause urine infections love that sugar.

Tai Chi: We’ve had data for several years that Tai Chi is excellent for fall prevention in the elderly, and there was a recent study showing tai chi is ‘non-inferior’ to routine physical therapy for management of degenerative arthritis of the knees.

Antioxidants: Someone mentioned on a prior thread that antioxidants were once considered ‘alternative medicine’. It’s a notion that floored me, as I was taught about these as part of nutritional science and biochemistry in my first year of medical school.

joekster
joekster
4 years ago

@Kupo: I differ from many other physicians regarding ‘herbal’ remedies: I don’t mind if my patients take these things, but I want to know what they’re taking.

There was another saying in medical school: ‘if it works, it has side effects’. Any treatment that has a real effect alters a patient’s physiology, and anything that alters a person’s physiology can do so in unanticipated ways. While pineapple probably won’t hurt you (although it is acidic, so I’d minimize intake if you have issues with stomach ulcers or heartburn), a lot of these ‘herbal’ medications come with their own list of side effects. Because of the overall poor research supporting many of these (people marketing herbal meds generally have far less research funding than the pharmaceutical companies, and the FDA requires far less study of ‘supplements’ than ‘drugs’), many of these side effects are not found out until long after they hit the market.

Also, many herbal meds, such as St. John’s Wort and grapefruit juice, interact with many of the medications we give patients, and can either make them ineffective, or make them more likely to cause side effects of their own.

tl/dr: Herbal medications are, in fact, medications (at least, the ones that work are). They are generally less well studied than the rigorous process pharmaceutical medications are put through, but the ones with real effects are just as likely to have side effects as anything else. They should be treated with caution and respect, and a persons physician needs to know what herbal medications they are taking to minimize the potential for harm.

Catalpa
Catalpa
4 years ago

^ Do vitamin supplements count as medication? /curious

Joekster
Joekster
4 years ago

@catalpa: yes they do, and thank you for asking! You’d be amazed how many people forget to tell their doctor about that vitamin K containing multivitamin they’re taking when the doc tries to start them on Coumadin, and then gets frustrated that the Coumadin is taking forever to reach a therapeutic level.

I got my undergraduate degree in biochemistry, so I could say a great deal more on the subject, but I met my wall of text limit for the day in another thread :). Is there anything in particular you wanted to know about?