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harassment threats twitter

Twitter “progressives” bombard Jen Kirkman with death threats after missing the point of a joke

Jen Kirkman on Drunk History
Jen Kirkman on Drunk History

So yesterday comedian Jen Kirkman posted a little joke on Twitter, as comedians are wont to do.

Jen Kirkman ✔ @JenKirkman I LIKE that Hillary has murdered a lot of people.

Before we look at what happened after she posted this Tweet (which has now been deleted), let me just say a couple of things about the Tweet itself.

Jen Kirkman does not actually “LIKE that Hillary has murdered a lot of people,” in part because she (Kirkman) does not LIKE murder and in part because she does not believe that Hillary has, in fact, murdered a lot of people.

The joke is a clear reference to the right-wing Clinton-haters who have been trying their best, for the last quarter century, to convince the world that Bill and Hillary have been secretly knocking off their political enemies, mob style, racking up a CLINTON BODY COUNT that is now said to number 48.

In other words, the joke is not actually a joke about murder. It s a joke about the right-wing idiots who think that Hillary goes around offing people like some pastel-pantsuited Tony Soprano.

[UPDATE 8/5 Kirkman herself made clear that’s what she meant in a Tweet today.]

Unfortunately, many of those who encountered Kirkman’s Tweet on Twitter — a large number of whom seem to be former Bernie Sanders supporters who’ve gone over the Green Party’s Jill Stein — have kind of missed the point just a little, misreading it as some sort of creepy celebration of drones murdering children in Afghanistan, or something.

And instead of stopping for a second to ask themselves, “wait, is this comedian lady who does those hilarious yet disarmingly earnest segments on Drunk History really mocking or even advocating the murder of children, why would she do that, that can’t be right” many of these people decided to advocate the murder of her.

Here are a small fraction of the Tweets sent to her.

Bacchus @thebacch Ain't no one buying your shit -- we're just hoping you meet the same fate as those dead children you're mocking. https://twitter.com/jenkirkman/status/761225738863292417 … 10:45 AM - 4 Aug 2016 Retweets 4 4 likes Follow Nick @jinkiescoob I LIKE that people have threatened to murder Jen Kirkman https://twitter.com/JenKirkman/status/760911124300570624 … 1:03 PM - 4 Aug 2016 Retweets 2 2 likes 3 Aug Jen Kirkman ✔ @JenKirkman I LIKE that Hillary has murdered a lot of people. Follow #ITSINOURHANDS @moonpyramid @JenKirkman Jen Kirkman thinks this is a funny fucking joke. Smug bitch, like most moron HRC elitists & paid trolls. 11:10 PM - 3 Aug 2016 Retweets likes Follow Victoria Chase @Victoriam_chase @PoliticsPeach @JenKirkman who is this ignorant bitch who need his/her ass kicked!! 7:45 PM - 3 Aug 2016 Retweets likes 3 Aug Jen Kirkman ✔ @JenKirkman I LIKE that Hillary has murdered a lot of people. Follow José Sáez-Peñalver @JSaezpenalver @JenKirkman Louis C.K. should have facefucked you that day, you whore. 6:32 AM - 4 Aug 2016 Retweets likes Follow the good posts guy @Lowenaffchen @JenKirkman you don't get to complain about your mentions after tweeting "murder is good". sorry 12:27 PM - 4 Aug 2016 8 8 Retweets 67 67 likes 3 Aug Jen Kirkman ✔ @JenKirkman I LIKE that Hillary has murdered a lot of people. Follow Juan C. Rodriguez @MrRodriguez89 @JenKirkman you're a massive idiot and deserve whatever harassment you get. Fuck you ya piece of shit!

After Kirkman noted that she would be handing the operation of her Twitter account to someone else because she was tired of reading all the death threats, some of her Twitter, er, critics, did little victory dances of sorts.

midnight velvet @JoshJDee ? @JenKirkman pic.twitter.com/KSfId3448D 1:54 PM - 4 Aug 2016 View image on Twitter Retweets likes Follow haram bae @lastlivingrose aw damn, just missed ya! anyway i wholeheartedly agree with everyone who said you deserved to be murdered next https://twitter.com/JenKirkman/status/761261881042481152 … 1:11 PM - 4 Aug 2016 3 3 Retweets 13 13 likes 3h Jen Kirkman ✔ @JenKirkman pic.twitter.com/DRV3PT7Sli Follow Professor Pikachu @crystalproteins @JenKirkman see ya cunt 1:04 PM - 4 Aug 2016 Retweets 10 10 likes 3h Jen Kirkman ✔ @JenKirkman pic.twitter.com/DRV3PT7Sli Follow soft money @LazyVodkaVideo @JenKirkman this is funnier than any joke you've ever written. 1:44 PM - 4 Aug 2016

And yes, that last dude is using a photo of a young Josef Stalin as his avatar. You know, the Russian dictator whose actual non-fictional not-a-joke STALIN BODY COUNT added up to something close to 20 million.

Someone even took the anti-Kirkman struggle to Wikipedia.

https://twitter.com/lastlivingrose/status/761283232260362240

The people bombarding Kirkman with threats and abuse aren’t Trump fans. They aren’t Trump fans pretending to be BernieBros. If you don’t believe me, go look at the accounts of the people whose Tweets I quoted above, or go directly to @JenKirkman’s mentions now, where you can find hundreds if not thousands more Tweets like this.

These are people who, in many instances, consider themselves progressives, radicals, anarchists, “revolutionaries.” These are, in more than a few cases, proud supporters of Jill Stein, a woman whose presence in the race makes it all that much harder to defeat the unhinged Muslim-hating racist Donald Trump. That strikes me as something of an irony.

In Milan Kundera’s The Joke, set in Communist Czechoslovakia in the 1950s, a young Czech intellectual and Communist Party member is tossed from the party and sent to work in the mines after he jokingly writes “long live Trotsky” on a postcard.

These days, we’ve got Twitter for that.

NOTE 8/5: Just a reminder for new commenters: defending or excusing harassment is against the comment policy here. I’ve been lax on bans in this thread so far but that’s over now.

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Freemage
Freemage
4 years ago

Deb
August 5, 2016 at 11:04 am

I can’t help but notice that there are no actual death threats shown in this article. Please tell me you haven’t lied or exaggerated the facts of this case to prop up your argument.

One other thing: your entire blog is devoted to calling out bad behavior, but you’ve defended Kirkman because she’s on “your team” – i.e. she’s an affluent white woman who shares your politics. It’s hypocritical to fully embrace callout culture but immediately go to “jeez, lighten up, IT’S JUST A JOKE” as soon as someone calls your team out. Isn’t that what the bigots always say? Isn’t that the kind of thing you don’t take as a valid excuse? By your own rules she has privilege over the people she is joking about, and is “punching down” instead of punching up. If you want anyone to take you seriously you need to be consistent, not just a cheerleader for your own cultural group.

I put “you deserve to be murdered” in the death-threat category, thanks. And I can point to at least two of the quoted posts with that exact wording. There’s also at least one, “I wish you had been raped,” line in there, as well.

In addition, what you and every other drive-by troll has missed is that the original situation is as follows:

She made a joke on Twitter. Some folks misunderstood it, some felt that even if you stuck to the original meaning, extra context made it distasteful. Many of them then gave her negative feedback regarding the joke. This feedback can be broadly lumped into two categories:

1: Legitimate critiques, ranging from simply emotional appeals to avoid such jokes to explanations as to why the attempt at humor failed, in their opinion.

2: Rape and death-threats.

Dave’s column was talking about this second category. Not one of the posts quoted above fall into the first category; thus, we can conclude that Dave was not, in any way, shape or form taking any side in the discussion about whether or not the joke itself was funny, beyond his comment about the likely (and later confirmed) context–that it was a dig at the constant references to Vince Foster, etc.

He further did some research to confirm that the people posting were not right-wingers posing as leftists to attack another leftist using unacceptable tactics, but rather that they were sincere supporters of Green and progressive positions who nevertheless felt it was appropriate to make rape-wishes and death-threats to a woman over a joke made on Twitter. This rebuts a rather constant theme lately wherein Bernie Busters, Stein fans and others insist that they would never, ever engage in such conduct and all such behavior must be false flag operations (they don’t use that term, but the claims fit the definition of the term).

When folks come in here to talk about the first, legitimate category of criticism, then, they are at best, utterly illiterate fuckwits with the reading comprehension of a tuna. At worst, they are disingenuous fuckwits who are deliberately intent on derailing the conversation to focus on anything other than another example of willful and deliberate internet misogyny. At the end, like the defenders of Intelligent Design in Dover, the entire group may be safely dismissed as either fools or liars, without further bothering to figure out which one is which.

The only courtesy you, or any of the other fuckwits, is entitled to is the same courtesy that we here are saying Jen was due–none of you, no matter how much of an liar or fool you may be, deserves anything worse than some scorn for your attempts at derailing; there will be no death threats, no wishes for rape, and indeed, no wishes that you be targets for the sort of harassment Jen is getting. This is because we frown on hypocrisy, and any of those sorts of statements directed at the fuckwits would, indeed, be hypocritical of us. Fortunately, most of us are smart enough to figure out how to express fully our contempt for all of you lot without having to resort to such overreach.

Falconer
Falconer
4 years ago

@Zatar:

And if you honestly believe that Trump won’t start a bunch of wars than I think your being rather willfully ignorant.

Seriously, the guy can be baited with a single Tweet, and has spent a week trying to ruin the reputations of a Gold Star family.

He will monger all the wars.

Kevin Carson
4 years ago

The “Berniebros” attacking Clinton for her hawkish foreign policy and support of military coups are pretty much coextensive with the “Emoprogs” who attacked Obama for exactly the same thing four years ago. So yeah, I think your claim that Clinton is being singled out while Obama is given a pass because of misogyny is disingenuous. That’s not to say that a lot of personal dislike for her isn’t motivated by misogyny. But I don’t think she’s being singled out on the drone thing.

sarah_kay_gee
sarah_kay_gee
4 years ago

Jen Kirkman is “punching down” to the rightwingers who own and operate huge chunks of media in the US and who have promulgated a ridiculous narrative about the Clintons murdering anyone who gets in their way, all the way back to Vince Foster? Kirkman was never talking about people who have died in drone strikes or potential civilian casualties of wars Clinton might start. That was a stupid, transparent feint employed by Twitter “progessives” as justification for being shitty to someone on social media.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
4 years ago

Seriously, even the people who’ve spent the last few years sniffing that none of the awesome things Obama’s managed despite the Republicans’ obstructionism really count, because DRONES*, are treating Hillary twice as harshly. Despite Obama being Obama and Hillary not being Obama.

And no, it’s not because they’re disappointed in Bernie’s loss – this started long before Bernie even put his hand up. It’s misogyny.

*Don’t get me wrong, I hate the drones too – and the expansion of the Patriot Act – but compared to same-sex marriage, Obamacare, ending the Afghanistan and Iraq Wars, ending the recession, publicly supporting equality of every kind…

Kootiepatra
4 years ago

@Viscaria, thank you for the kind words, but that section you quoted is by Tragedy of the Commas, not me. I agree with it wholeheartedly, so it’s certainly a flattering misattribution, but I wanted to be sure and give credit where credit is due. 🙂

Just in case anyone STILL doesn’t get this: Kirkman’s joke did not have to be funny, obvious, tasteful, or even moral for the main point of this article to stand: she should not be getting death threats for it. We are not defending her because she is a liberal woman. We are not arguing that she should be spared the wrath of a hate mob because her joke was successful, funny, or appropriate. We’re saying that no matter what kind of joke she made, she does not deserve death threats, because no one deserves death threats. We have on this very website condemned the doxxing of Roosh, for pete’s sake; OF COURSE we’re not going to pretend like Kirkman deserves threats to her life over a bad joke.

Pointing out that the response to her is far more violent than it would be if she were a man is *also* not making a statement about the quality or morality of her joke. It’s not saying that she should be given a break because she’s a woman; it’s saying that she should not be dogpiled because of it, and that those death threats–which are the big problem being addressed in the article–are not just violent, they’re sexist, too.

Dear internet: death threats are not the same thing as criticism. Repudiating the former does not shut down the latter. Someone deserving the latter does not mean they deserve the former.

This is really, really not that hard.

Jo
Jo
4 years ago

@Kevin – the idea that there isn’t enough criticism of Hilary tolerated among her supporters is simply bizarre to me. I can’t think of any candidate in my long political experience whose fans are more ready to say ‘she’s not perfect, but….’ Certainly compared to the uncritical adulation many Trump and Sanders fans display(ed).

And what we’re seeing in this thread is not being ‘less than enthusiastic’ or ‘commenting’ on her hawkishness. Just look upthread at the level of vitriol – it’s utterly incompatible with a measured exchange of views and deserves be called out.

Sir Prize
Sir Prize
4 years ago

What gets me is how these critiques of Hillary, like the drone program, aren’t really Hillary critiques but of the Establishment in general. Obama and W are equally responsible, if not more, yet for some reason (j/k misogyny) Hillary gets loads of shit. Hell even Bernie said he wouldn’t stop the drone program. It seems like she’s getting more flack for voting for the war than W got for starting the damn thing. Or you’d think the drone stuff was her personal project she strongarmed and pushed into action.

I wanna know why we can’t just wait until at least Jan 21 to start tearing apart Hillary?

Twitter Left needs to look in the mirror and take stock, making twitter unusable for women (this isn’t the first time) isn’t helping your arguments.

Dave
Dave
4 years ago

Someone responded to Jen saying they buried family members and this joke was offensive to them, and she told them next time she should hire someone else to bury them so it won’t be as hard. Ha ha! Funny joke, get it? Jen deleted it though, so she gets to look like a hero when some monster uses the c-word, which is way worse than publicly mocking someone’s dead family members.

Jo
Jo
4 years ago

On the topic of Greens, my friends in Germany have been mightily unimpressed by the Greens who are in control of their local government. The verdict is that they’re far more interested in gesture politics, headline-grabbing projects and passing resolutions on national issues than they are in actually running things effectively. They’re even neglecting what should be bread and butter green issues, like maintaining and expanding the local cycle network.

Turns out actually getting things done when you have power is hard and nowhere near as much fun as complaining from the sidelines. This is why the older I get, the more I prioritise competence over ideological purity. I’ll happily vote for someone who shares 80% of my values and can get results over someone useless who agrees with me on everything.

Viscaria
Viscaria
4 years ago

@Kootiepatra and Tragedy of the Commas

@Viscaria, thank you for the kind words, but that section you quoted is by Tragedy of the Commas, not me.

Oof, my bad! Sorry.

Deniselle
Deniselle
4 years ago

Death and rape threats are always wrong, and Twitter needs to address this issue a lot more.

However, this case isn’t so clear cut. Many people – actual progressives, not “progressives” in scare quotes – were legitimately criticizing the joke before the misogynists showed up.

This article assumes that everyone knows her entire body of work and judges her by that. Not everyone does, nor should they need to. People are going to judge someone by their behavior, especially when it comes to personal encounters.

The problem is that there were women on both sides of the issue. It was largely women of color who were hurt by the joke. They weren’t threatening Kirkman’s life or wishing her harm, they were simply voicing their feelings, and got nothing but mockery in response.

Kirkman just published a post where she accuses “social justice warriors” of “saying ridiculous things” and piling up on her. She invites people to see this as a case of social justice gone too far, not as a case of misogynists threatening her life.

People are going to read the post and think that “social justice warriors” flooded Kirkman’s mentions with death threats. They won’t realize there’s a difference between critiques and threats, because Kirkman doesn’t make this distinction in her post. This will only serve to make people more wary of online activism.

The mainstream media will not blame men who threaten women on Twitter. It will blame us. We’re the problem, because Kirkman herself said so.

kupo
kupo
4 years ago

@Kevin Carson
Nope. A bunch of people I know personally who have always either liked Obama or didn’t have a lot to say about him have been clogging my Facebook feed with anti-Hillary BS.

Freemage
Freemage
4 years ago

Dave (I’m not really expecting a reply here, because you’re obviously yet another drive-by fuckwit, but hey, here goes anyway):

Did any of Jen’s posts say that the person she was addressing, or their families, deserve to die? Did she call for any of those individuals to be raped, or say they deserved it?

If not, then please fuck off with all the false equivalencies.

If so, then put up some sort of proof (seriously, folks, screen captures, wayback machine, some sort of evidence should be out there) that she did so, and we will condemn her as round as we’re condemning those who made those comments to her.

And then we’ll tell you to fuck off, because even if she DID make those sorts of comments, it doesn’t make retorting on the same level any less reprehensible. Get it, fuckwits?

weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo

To whichever troll implied David is lying, he often does not post the most violent and disgusting examples of harassment women get in social media because they may be triggering or if not triggering, quite upsetting for readers. We don’t need to read graphically violent threats to get the gist.

Freemage
Freemage
4 years ago

Kevin: Except that as you note, that was four years ago. Obama had been in office for four years at that point, and had failed to follow through on promises to de-escalate war (or at least, was seen to have done so by the emoprogs). This time, they’re literally condemning Hillary before she’s ever been in the position of making the key decisions about use of force. Having acknowledged her error in voting for the Iraq AUMF, Hillary has already moved away from the one case where she actually did something objectionable on those grounds.

Kevin Carson
4 years ago
Reply to  Freemage

I hope she surprises me and proves my fears groundless.

Freemage
Freemage
4 years ago

Okay, so: Somehow, my exchange with Kevin there is a bit garbled–my reply comes before both his rejoinder to my reply, AND his original post, which is last in the list. WordPress, have you finally broken the fourth dimension? Is this how we get Skynet?

Edit: And now his original post is after this one, too. I think the time-stamp on that one is FUBAR.

Loquora
Loquora
4 years ago

Thank goodness Kevin is here to tell us what is and isn’t misogyny. It’s not like many of us are and/or present as women and thus would have personal experience with misogyny from which to draw conclusions. I hope he doesn’t waste his talents only telling feminists on the internet where they are and aren’t finding misogyny, I’m sure there are Black Lives Matters protests out there who would be grateful to hear from him what is and isn’t racism.

Don’t waste your gift, Kevin! Run! Run now and spread the word! And don’t worry about coming back when you’re done.

Handsome "These Pretzels Suck" Jack (formerly Pandapool)

1st time ever, clicked your name. Is that Matthew Gray Gubler!? I adore him! Criminal minds marathons are the bestest

You guys should click my name more often. I change it every once in awhile, mostly music videos and Handsome Jack clips.

Currently, the link is to the trailer of How To Be A Serial Killer, starring Damien Clark, the voice actor of Handsome Jack (talk about being type casted), and, yeah, Matthew Gray Gubler.

Tegiminis
Tegiminis
4 years ago

So, two things:

1) Jen Kirkman’s tweet was bad. Like, seriously bad. That she doubled -down and joked about dead afghans when called out on it only makes it even worse.

Can we not defend her tweet as being somehow good and just and right? The joke was poorly constructed if it was intended to only reference the conspiracy meme that Clinton has literally directly killed people, or was responsible for the deaths in Benghazi. It’s offensive as well, given that it can very easily refer to Clinton’s policies as Secretary of State, which includes destabilizing Libya and a bunch of other shitty warhawk interventionist policies. It’s straight up an unclear, poorly-worded, offensively-made joke.

Also she literally tweeted a joke about dead afghans during the firestorm that surrounded the tweet, so it’s not like this is just one tweet that went off the rails. She purposefully fanned the flames of antagonism by mocking dead foreigners.

2) Jen Kirkman, even with such a terrible, offensive, disgusting tweet (and follow-up tweets), shouldn’t get death threats. She shouldn’t be harassed, or threatened, or abused. She should be calmly criticized for a joke that could be construed as support for the murder of foreigners. It was a bad joke.

This article conflates defending Kirkman’s tweet and subsequent follow-ups, which are honestly kind of indefensible, with pointing out that she shouldn’t receive death threats for her joke. You don’t need to do that, and by painting most criticism of her as just like death threats you’re doing the same shit you regularly and rightly point out as hypocrisy by the right wing.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that I’m disappointed. I really like your work cataloguing all this alt-right MRA douchebaggery, and it’s troubling to me that you would go to defend a tweet made in very poor taste as “lol u just didn’t get it”. I doubt my approval means anything to you, but I felt the urge to stop lurking and post just to get this off my chest here (I already said all this stuff on Twitter, lol).

Anyway, I’ll still keep reading the site and all, but please do better next time. Don’t condone or excuse tweets that mock the dead. That’s all I ask.

Kootiepatra
4 years ago

@Drive-by-Dave –

If you’ll notice, the title of this piece is not, “Mean People Drop the C Word on a Totally Sweethearted Comedian”. We are not trying to claim she is an angel. We are saying she does not deserve to get swarmed with death threats.

Continuing to argue that she said awful things does not change the fact that she does not deserve death threats.

She does not need to be a hero in order to not deserve death threats. She does not even need to be a good person in order to not deserve death threats.

Parker Cross, Jr.
4 years ago

Please let Jen know I LIKED her joke. That is all.

Chop My Head Off Please

Kevin Carson, these people will be chanting “yass slay queen” when Clinton follows through on her promised war in Iran and bombs civilian targets as part of a total war campaign. They’re also perfectly willing to forget that Clinton painted Obama as as an illegitimate Kenyan drug dealer a few years ago, because hey, that’s just politics (like all the brown people’s corpses Clinton and Kirkman are happy to brush under the carpet). They don’t see anything wrong with it, save your breath.

Loquora
Loquora
4 years ago

@chop my head off please

comment image

weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo

I’m so glad that someone with oh so charming name of “chop my head off please” is here to tell us what we’ll do and say. I’m sure a troll who came here one day ago and doesn’t know any of us is well qualified to pontificate about what our opinions are.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
4 years ago

So, someone named “CHOP MY HEAD OFF PLEASE” (I wonder what that could be a reference to) is complaining that the largely pacifist commentariat here is entirely OK with another Persian Gulf War. They also think that Clinton will seek to undo Obama’s ‘peace deal’ (wouldn’t call it actual peace, but it’s a start) and start war with Iran. Ignoring, course, that the Republicans were the ones who sent a letter to Iran, specifically urging them not to accept the terms. And that Trump has been antagonizing the deal and Iran’s leadership openly since his campaign started. But Clinton is the danger to Amero-Iranian relations…

Sure

weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo

I’m tempted to click on their name but am afraid it will be gore pics.

Viscaria
Viscaria
4 years ago

Kevin Carson, these people will be chanting “yass slay queen” when Clinton follows through on her promised war in Iran and bombs civilian targets as part of a total war campaign.

No. First of all, I don’t say “yass slay queen,” because I’m white, and stealing AAVE is incredibly shitty. Second of all, “war is bad” and “targeted misogynistic harassment is bad” are not incompatible positions.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
4 years ago

@Kevin : and yet, Obama wasn’t attacked with that level of rabid, obsessive, single minded criticism.

So yeah, your claim that Clinton isn’t singled out by virtue of being a woman is disingenuous.

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
4 years ago

But I don’t think she’s being singled out on the drone thing.

I’ll believe my own lying eyes, thanks.

ETA: This is in response to Kevin. There’s definitely something odd going on with the posting order.

Joey Daniewicz
Joey Daniewicz
4 years ago

“In Milan Kundera’s The Joke, set in Communist Czechoslovakia in the 1950s, a young Czech intellectual and Communist Party member is tossed from the party and sent to work in the mines after he jokingly writes “long live Trotsky” on a postcard.

These days, we’ve got Twitter for that.”

I’m not defending any of the harassment, but this seems…like a poor comparison.

booburry
booburry
4 years ago

Kevin
I don’t think anyone cares about your opinions on misogyny or race for that matter. Just a guess.

kale
kale
4 years ago

harassment is not OK. but the “not what she meant!” thing misses the point of an actual legit critique, which is that its easy and common for white Americans and indeed most Americans to forget that our government is committing atrocities and our politicians are complicit in that. i dont think most if any of her harassers truly care about that though. The people I see regularly discussing these issues on twitter dont harass people like that.

Loquora
Loquora
4 years ago

@kale:

Which of the tweets highlighted above is a legitimate critique and not harassment?

hedin
hedin
4 years ago

@Tegiminis you said everything I wanted to say, way better than I was probably going to say it. I also saw another deleted, screen-capped tweet where she said, something similar about African Americans. I’ll try to find it.

@Scented Fucking Hard Chairs

Seriously, even the people who’ve spent the last few years sniffing that none of the awesome things Obama’s managed despite the Republicans’ obstructionism really count, because DRONES*, are treating Hillary twice as harshly. Despite Obama being Obama and Hillary not being Obama.

And no, it’s not because they’re disappointed in Bernie’s loss – this started long before Bernie even put his hand up. It’s misogyny.

*Don’t get me wrong, I hate the drones too – and the expansion of the Patriot Act – but compared to same-sex marriage, Obamacare, ending the Afghanistan and Iraq Wars, ending the recession, publicly supporting equality of every kind…

If he were bombing American civilians with drones, would you make the same argument?

I acknowledge that he’s done some very good things (I don’t know any progressives who don’t believe that). But the argument “well yeah. I mean he’s killed thousands of civillians and deeply traumatized many more, but look at all the good he’s done” is abhorrent.

Either the lives of foreigners are trivial and disposable, or murder is murder wherever it happens.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
4 years ago

OK, imma ramble a bit. Get some drone related thoughts off my chest…

What is it with drones? Everyone goes on and on about drones. Like, I also don’t like drones. But why? Is it cos their scary? They fuckin are, but why do I talk about them as a philosophical thing if it’s just fear? Do I just not like the War on Terror, so I’ve chosen the Bad Thing du jour to be indignant about? Drones, demonstrably haven’t killed that many people, and, speaking relative to ground fighting, haven’t killed that many civilian people. It’s all bad, but why do I feel viscerally bad about drones in a way I don’t about ‘conventional warfare’?

Is it shared cultural trauma from nukes? Death from above with no warning, ya know? Or is it the fact that operators fly the things from halfway around the world? Is the safety of the operators bad? Do I want them hurt, or do I just want them to be in a situation where they can be hurt? Do I think they’ll be better people if they’re under direct attack? Will it make them less likely to kill? Wasn’t a problem for the Abu Ghraib fuckers or that guy who shot up the village in Kandahar. Stopping drones won’t stop wars, so why do I hate drones specifically?

I honestly don’t know why…

Rosie
Rosie
4 years ago

I do not trust some of the ‘tweets’ they keep reposting, if I can’t see it. And given that they are recycling that one tweet, I would’ve imagined they would have archived it, no?

authorialAlchemy
authorialAlchemy
4 years ago

My dad thinks the Clintons are personally ordering the deaths of people, please help.

Omnicrom
Omnicrom
4 years ago

@axecalibur

Well there are two reasons to dislike drones. The first is that Drones have been used to commit arguable war crimes. For instance there’s the charming “double tap” method where a Drone is sent in, bombs the crap out of a cluster of possible terrorists, and then drops a second bomb on the people that scurry out to help. Unsurprisingly this is a good way to kill innocent civilians and make enemies needlessly and hatefully. Additionally Drones, by virtue of the fact you can send them off and operate them remotely can fly around killing people in places we really technically shouldn’t be killing people like Pakistan.

The second more visceral reason is that they feel too easy. Drone warfare is dehumanized, the actual attack is done by a flying robot whose controller hundreds of miles away. Previously you had to actually commit a human life to the mission when you went out to take another human life, but drones allow for you to casually end lives without worrying about losing soldiers of your own. The casual mechanization of war hits a lot of the warning bells ingrained in popular culture because there are a lot of cautionary tales about the rise of the machines and the dangers of sacrificing humanity and human action on the road to convenience. These fears are reinforced by the fact that Drones are being used in other situations. The overall fear of dehumanizing mechanization is furthered by things like surveillance drones and that time Amazon started talking about its desire to have its own fleet of delivery drones.

If you want to know why culture finds Drones scary look at some of our cautionary tales against drones and robotics. Consider movies like the Terminator and Matrix franchises, games like Metal Gear Solid, and shows like Gundam Wing. All of them have warnings that apply in varying degrees to the proliferation of Drones and drone technology.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
4 years ago

@Omnicrom

“double tap”

I’ve heard that, occasionally, they triple tap. Fucked up doesn’t even begin to describe it. Still, heinous shit like that is entirely possible with ‘manned’ aircraft. Nothing we’ve done with drones comes remotely close to actual humans, in planes, lighting Dresden on fire, so what’s going on here?

by virtue of the fact you can send them off and operate them remotely can fly around killing people in places we really technically shouldn’t be killing people like Pakistan

Bin Laden was hiding in Pakistan. Any specific objections I’d have to bombing there are gone. Drone strike in Japan, India, Egypt, something like that, I have a problem. Pakistan, not so much. Killing people is bad, but, on that visceral level I mentioned, killing them in Pakistan ain’t any different than doing so in Iraq

The second more visceral reason is that they feel too easy…

That’s probably true, and it brings me no comfort. It’s not meant to or anything, I just wish the reason were less… I dunno, paranoid? Do people have a problem with the mechanization of labor from an econ standpoint? Or is it mostly being scared of the T800? Likely both, I suppose. And how much of all of that is base, human conservatism? Do I object to drones, at least partly, out of a general fear of change?

Anyway, there’s some more rambling nonsense. Thanks, Omnicrom, for taking the time. That was an incisive post. I have a lot to think about…

Kettle
Kettle
4 years ago

Dr. Jill Stein isn’t an anti-vaxxer. She spoke about corporate involvement in healthcare and her words were taken out of context, and the smear was happily gobbled up and regurgitated by angry Dems. But then she’s ruining the presidential race for Clinton and is practically handing the election to Trump so who cares about her, right?

Rabid Rabbit
Rabid Rabbit
4 years ago

@Axecalibur:

As people have mentioned, drones feel too easy. But I think the real reason they’re scary is that they’re a warning of what’s to come, when we get ground-based robots, and the more militarily advanced countries do their fighting via controllers hundreds of miles away.

The reason that’s scary, of course, is that suddenly gamergaters will have job options. Because at a guess, the sort of skills you acquire playing shooting games are just the sort of skills a military-at-a-distance would need.

So drones are terrifying because they’re the first signs of a world where gamerbros have a purpose. And God knows whether there will be enough safeguards to keep them from aiming a drone at Anita Sarkeesian for lulz.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
4 years ago

@Rabbit
Couldn’t find a gif good enough to fully express how perfect your comment is. I just want you to know that I tried…

@authorialAlchemy
*Solemn sigh of sympathy*
On what authority are they ordering assassinations? Who are they ordering to carry them out? Who are they having killed? Why? If these most ingenious, secret murderers are, in fact, ingenious, secret murderers, how does your dad know about it? I’m guessing he’s not a top CIA operative or anything, so how did he, specifically, come into this information?

Kettle
Kettle
4 years ago

PS David gets all the feminism points for implying that a female presidential candidate should drop out because she’s making things difficult. A+ feminism.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
4 years ago

@Kettle
DOCTOR Jill Stein has said:
That vaccines “in general have made a huge contribution to public health”. Emphasis mine

That people have “real questions” about vaccines, and that, “not all the issues were addressed. I think some of them at least have been addressed. I don’t know if all of them have been addressed”. Right…

That “toxic substances like Mercury” were “rampant in vaccines”. Wrong kinda Mercury, doc

That she is against “mandatory vaccinations”, cos it excludes medical exemptions. Except it doesn’t

That autism is “an epidemic” and a “public health calamity”. Most increase in autism diagnosis is due to a broader definition than before and more docs looking for it

That “people do not trust” the FDA or CDC. This within the same breath as talking about vaccines

Stein’s the vaccine equivalent of ‘I’m not racist, but…’ She can say she supports vaccination all she wants, but so long as she’s discouraging, directly or not, people getting their kids’ shots, she’s antivax

so who cares about her, right?

Not me. Should I? Other than the base level connection I have for her as a human, why should I care about her? To what end? Are you saying that, if I cared about her, I wouldn’t call her antivax? Nah, folk, that ain’t how shit works. Besides, Stein’s not really hurting Clinton’s chance at the presidency. So…

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
4 years ago

PS David gets all the feminism points for implying that a female presidential candidate should drop out because she’s making things difficult. A+ feminism.

There are dead possums with better reading comprehension than you.

BVH
BVH
4 years ago

Turns out actually getting things done when you have power is hard and nowhere near as much fun as complaining from the sidelines. This is why the older I get, the more I prioritise competence over ideological purity.

THIS. SO THIS. MUCH THIS.

I’ll happily vote for someone who shares 80% of my values and can get results over someone useless who agrees with me on everything.

A friend of mine, a fellow working class leftist, told me about this great political science teacher she had who explained you want to be careful of any politician who agreed with you about everything. They have identified your demographic and are telling you exactly what you want to hear. OTOH a politician who has a competent record doing things and following through, who you only agree with 90% of the time, or your disagreements are about how to do things, well, that’s as good as it gets.

Besides, citizen participation doesn’t stop at election day. If you don’t think your winner is following through, organize and put pressure on them to do the job they promised.

Viscaria
Viscaria
4 years ago

PS David gets all the feminism points for implying that a female presidential candidate should drop out because she’s making things difficult. A+ feminism.

GIANT SIGH.

Orac’s in-depth analysis of Jill Stein’s antivaccine dog whistles is here and it is worth a read.

Tragedy of the Commas
Tragedy of the Commas
4 years ago

@ Viscaria and Kootiepatra

Thank you! I’ve liked and agreed with your comments here, as well. The last couple of threads have been exhausting to read, so I’m going on another hiatus after this post. Back in the spring, there were the same discussions about drones, Clinton, and so on. The feeling of repeating the same conversations and talking points (e.g. Sanders supports Obama-style drone use, something others and I have pointed out for months here) ad nauseam means I’ve nothing substantial left to add to that discussion. Except to say I co-sign (to use Genius.com’s lingo) Scented Fucking Hard Chairs, nparker, Loquora, MissEB47, and Marinerachel’s statements.

@ booburry

That’s a really excellent point. Getting fired from your job is justified to the manosphere types when the person fired is a woman who said a shitty thing. But it’s a tragedy of “political correctness” if a white man is fired from his job over saying a shitty thing publicly on Twitter. Not supporting people getting fired from work over tweets, necessarily, but there is a double-standard in attitude.

It’s similar to what you see from people who like to wave the Confederate flag: “it’s a part of history we can’t forget, now get the hell over slavery would you please!?”

@ Pol

She would be bringing a bad name to The Greens if she were anti-science.

True, but they already reached a pretty low point when they nominated a 9/11 Truther.

@ leftwingfox

Yeah. In my state, in 2014, you had exactly one person from the Green party running for a State Senate seat. There are zero Green candidates running this year in any State Senate race. For the State House, you had zero Green candidates running in 2014. There are also zero running this year (tbf, there were 4 in 2012).

Federal elections tend to be better though. As in, a non-zero number of candidates; e.g., 2 who ran for US House Rep seats from my state in 2014 and 5 who ran in 2012. There are zero running for US House in my state this year, it appears.

Although, in 2012, they did run someone for the US Senate who beat the Libertarian candidate by about 18,000 votes and by the Constitution Party’s candidate by about 20,000 votes. Yay?

I guess they figure that the presidential election is the time to get the most (or any) publicity? But, as you and others have pointed out in this thread and in the other thread, it doesn’t produce real change. Oh well, because of the anti-science policies and conspiracy theorists, as per the discussions on this site, I’m done with the Greens.

@ Falconer

There’s no reason to believe that Trump will curtail the drone programs.

QFT.

@ Axecalbiur

Ignoring, course, that the Republicans were the ones who sent a letter to Iran, specifically urging them not to accept the terms. And that Trump has been antagonizing the deal and Iran’s leadership openly since his campaign started. But Clinton is the danger to Amero-Iranian relations…

Funny how that works, isn’t it? Better a villain than a problematic fave?

@ Howard

It looks like all of the comments have been deleted. Ah well. GamerGhazi has thousands of users with diverse opinions. In one thread, the Redditors hate the terms SWERF and TERF and dislike the support for sex-workers some feminists have, for example. In another, the Redditors who comment hate SWERFs and TERFs and unashamedly support sex-workers. The comments can frequently be awful or thoughtful. So, I guess my only response is: oh well.