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harassment threats twitter

Twitter “progressives” bombard Jen Kirkman with death threats after missing the point of a joke

Jen Kirkman on Drunk History
Jen Kirkman on Drunk History

So yesterday comedian Jen Kirkman posted a little joke on Twitter, as comedians are wont to do.

Jen Kirkman ✔ @JenKirkman I LIKE that Hillary has murdered a lot of people.

Before we look at what happened after she posted this Tweet (which has now been deleted), let me just say a couple of things about the Tweet itself.

Jen Kirkman does not actually “LIKE that Hillary has murdered a lot of people,” in part because she (Kirkman) does not LIKE murder and in part because she does not believe that Hillary has, in fact, murdered a lot of people.

The joke is a clear reference to the right-wing Clinton-haters who have been trying their best, for the last quarter century, to convince the world that Bill and Hillary have been secretly knocking off their political enemies, mob style, racking up a CLINTON BODY COUNT that is now said to number 48.

In other words, the joke is not actually a joke about murder. It s a joke about the right-wing idiots who think that Hillary goes around offing people like some pastel-pantsuited Tony Soprano.

[UPDATE 8/5 Kirkman herself made clear that’s what she meant in a Tweet today.]

Unfortunately, many of those who encountered Kirkman’s Tweet on Twitter — a large number of whom seem to be former Bernie Sanders supporters who’ve gone over the Green Party’s Jill Stein — have kind of missed the point just a little, misreading it as some sort of creepy celebration of drones murdering children in Afghanistan, or something.

And instead of stopping for a second to ask themselves, “wait, is this comedian lady who does those hilarious yet disarmingly earnest segments on Drunk History really mocking or even advocating the murder of children, why would she do that, that can’t be right” many of these people decided to advocate the murder of her.

Here are a small fraction of the Tweets sent to her.

Bacchus @thebacch Ain't no one buying your shit -- we're just hoping you meet the same fate as those dead children you're mocking. https://twitter.com/jenkirkman/status/761225738863292417 … 10:45 AM - 4 Aug 2016 Retweets 4 4 likes Follow Nick @jinkiescoob I LIKE that people have threatened to murder Jen Kirkman https://twitter.com/JenKirkman/status/760911124300570624 … 1:03 PM - 4 Aug 2016 Retweets 2 2 likes 3 Aug Jen Kirkman ✔ @JenKirkman I LIKE that Hillary has murdered a lot of people. Follow #ITSINOURHANDS @moonpyramid @JenKirkman Jen Kirkman thinks this is a funny fucking joke. Smug bitch, like most moron HRC elitists & paid trolls. 11:10 PM - 3 Aug 2016 Retweets likes Follow Victoria Chase @Victoriam_chase @PoliticsPeach @JenKirkman who is this ignorant bitch who need his/her ass kicked!! 7:45 PM - 3 Aug 2016 Retweets likes 3 Aug Jen Kirkman ✔ @JenKirkman I LIKE that Hillary has murdered a lot of people. Follow José Sáez-Peñalver @JSaezpenalver @JenKirkman Louis C.K. should have facefucked you that day, you whore. 6:32 AM - 4 Aug 2016 Retweets likes Follow the good posts guy @Lowenaffchen @JenKirkman you don't get to complain about your mentions after tweeting "murder is good". sorry 12:27 PM - 4 Aug 2016 8 8 Retweets 67 67 likes 3 Aug Jen Kirkman ✔ @JenKirkman I LIKE that Hillary has murdered a lot of people. Follow Juan C. Rodriguez @MrRodriguez89 @JenKirkman you're a massive idiot and deserve whatever harassment you get. Fuck you ya piece of shit!

After Kirkman noted that she would be handing the operation of her Twitter account to someone else because she was tired of reading all the death threats, some of her Twitter, er, critics, did little victory dances of sorts.

midnight velvet @JoshJDee ? @JenKirkman pic.twitter.com/KSfId3448D 1:54 PM - 4 Aug 2016 View image on Twitter Retweets likes Follow haram bae @lastlivingrose aw damn, just missed ya! anyway i wholeheartedly agree with everyone who said you deserved to be murdered next https://twitter.com/JenKirkman/status/761261881042481152 … 1:11 PM - 4 Aug 2016 3 3 Retweets 13 13 likes 3h Jen Kirkman ✔ @JenKirkman pic.twitter.com/DRV3PT7Sli Follow Professor Pikachu @crystalproteins @JenKirkman see ya cunt 1:04 PM - 4 Aug 2016 Retweets 10 10 likes 3h Jen Kirkman ✔ @JenKirkman pic.twitter.com/DRV3PT7Sli Follow soft money @LazyVodkaVideo @JenKirkman this is funnier than any joke you've ever written. 1:44 PM - 4 Aug 2016

And yes, that last dude is using a photo of a young Josef Stalin as his avatar. You know, the Russian dictator whose actual non-fictional not-a-joke STALIN BODY COUNT added up to something close to 20 million.

Someone even took the anti-Kirkman struggle to Wikipedia.

https://twitter.com/lastlivingrose/status/761283232260362240

The people bombarding Kirkman with threats and abuse aren’t Trump fans. They aren’t Trump fans pretending to be BernieBros. If you don’t believe me, go look at the accounts of the people whose Tweets I quoted above, or go directly to @JenKirkman’s mentions now, where you can find hundreds if not thousands more Tweets like this.

These are people who, in many instances, consider themselves progressives, radicals, anarchists, “revolutionaries.” These are, in more than a few cases, proud supporters of Jill Stein, a woman whose presence in the race makes it all that much harder to defeat the unhinged Muslim-hating racist Donald Trump. That strikes me as something of an irony.

In Milan Kundera’s The Joke, set in Communist Czechoslovakia in the 1950s, a young Czech intellectual and Communist Party member is tossed from the party and sent to work in the mines after he jokingly writes “long live Trotsky” on a postcard.

These days, we’ve got Twitter for that.

NOTE 8/5: Just a reminder for new commenters: defending or excusing harassment is against the comment policy here. I’ve been lax on bans in this thread so far but that’s over now.

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Dutch Gypsie
Dutch Gypsie
4 years ago

Actually, it all started with the joke *i think it would be fun to go to war with iran. we always go to iraq. try something new for once* which bares an uncanny resemblance to *Anyone can go to Baghdad. Real men go to Tehran*, the actual policy of the neocons supporting HRC, her preferred candidate. When people called her out on this point as well as HRC’s role in the Iraqi invasion & support for a harder line stance with Iran, she doubled down with the joke *I LIKE that Hillary has murdered a lot of people* & *Afghans who have died can’t see the joke so to justify it would be weird. I’m not gonna talk to a corpse*. So it’s not clear that it was related to Vince Foster, but it was safe to assume it was related to HRC’s foreign policy. Newspapers from the NYT, to the Economist, New Republic, have all pointed out how HRC is more hawkish than Obama and is looking forward to being a war president. It’s not really controversial. A thought experiment would be, what if Don Rickles, for example, had said similar things about Nixon, that it was time to move from bombing Vietnam to bombing Cambodia and that he liked that Nixon killed a a lot of people. Think even in the 60’s, when there wasn’t Twitter & outrage, people would’ve called him on it, especially when comedians like Dick Gregory were fasting against the war. The misogynistic & death threats were beyond the pale and while I don’t feel Jen Kirkman is funny, she didn’t deserve such abuse. But at the same time, I remember when Michael Richards lost his career after a racist tirade so there are some lines comedians can’t cross nowadays. Think the lesson is don’t crack controversial jokes on twitter because the 140 limit prevents context.

magnesium
magnesium
4 years ago

Yeah, the Twitter “Progressives” have been at this for months. They can’t handle women making jokes any more than the alt-right can handle women making jokes. I have lost so much respect for people I used to follow. Turns out gamer gate tactics are good as long as you like the right politician.

magnesium
magnesium
4 years ago

thought experiment time! let’s say it wasn’t Jen Kirkman, let’s say it was Daniel Tosh, and he’d tweeted “I LIKE that Bill Clinton’s raped a bunch of women” and a bunch of people start tweeting back at him saying they hope Bill Clinton rapes him some day etc etc.

Is this still your gut-level response? “Wow, it was obviously a joke, why are all these people so upset?”

Pfff, thought experiment: change literally everything about the situation and pretend that “Don’t violently threaten to kill a woman in large groups” is equivalent to “Why are you so upset”. I’m not sure why your imagined situation would warrant death threats any more than the real one, but okay.

repentantphonebooth
repentantphonebooth
4 years ago

@ treehugger- I wish these folks were 4/8 chan types, but out on twitter they have active accounts with lots of lefty type tweets. These guys just genuinely want to spend their time harassing a female comic whose opinion differs from theirs. And don’t let them fool you- jen had been dealing with trolls for days before her Hillary joke. It kept coming across my feed.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
4 years ago

Important note if some of thoses guys still read the comments : if you send death threat to *anyone*, even Trump, even Milo, even Pol Pot if he was still alive, you’re in the wrong, and no justification will ever make you right.

In other word, discussing whether it was a joke or not is a red herring.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
4 years ago

Well, there’s one part of this that’s really funny, at least: All the douchetools spamming David’s Twitter with “UNFOLLOWED!!!”

They’re unfollowing a guy who made his name by standing up and saying that harassing women is wrong… For standing up and saying that harassing women is wrong.

http://replygif.net/i/166.gif

booburry
booburry
4 years ago

Sam

I am skeptical of tweets like that even being real after what happened to Leslie Jones, but in any case it seems like obvious sarcasm. As in “yes, that’s totally what I said and not a bizarre misinterpretation”.

Lea
Lea
4 years ago

Grogepi,
You’re just making shit up. I dare you to make less sense.

Tragedy of the Commas
Tragedy of the Commas
4 years ago

If bad jokes, unfunny satire, or terrible, in your opinion, tweets are enough “context” to justify sexist reactions, death and rape threats, or otherwise flooding someone with harassment, you were never really all that feminist or progressive to begin with, yeah?

Disagree with Futrelle’s defense of the joke or Kirkman, if you want to. Not everyone needs to agree that Kirkman is funny or clever. But it’s not really the point. Turning to the same violent responses one sees from the red pill right, while using support for Jill Stein as a shield from criticism for said responses and ignoring how others find this very uncomfortable, isn’t defensible because the speaker is also being awful. When Tosh.0, who came up earlier, made his rape jokes, feminists like Jennifer Pozner wrote thoughtful responses, not threats.

(Also, another discussion about why or why not Hilary Clinton is evil, when we just had one? Seriously?)

MissEB47
MissEB47
4 years ago

Rev. Magdalen

I thought the original joke was hilarious, because I’m constantly tweeted at by people like Lilly who take it as an undisputed article of faith that Hillary personally droned people when she was Secretary of State, and is a “war hawk” who will start a war immediately after taking office, because she just can’t get enough of it. I imagine Ms. Kirkman has also met these folks and was responding to that general trend, and it cracked me up.

Me too! She has not been in the position to order, or authorise military action, including drone strikes, in her entire career. She is yet to be president, was never an employee of the Department of Defense, and yet these people act like like she started the War on Iraq (ironically, the person who IS actually responsible is not on the receiving end of any of that shit. Maybe because he is a white man). She is not a perfect person, but she is no war hawk and she would make a fine president. Much better than Trump, at least. It was also obvious to me that was what Ms. Kirkman was referring to, that ridiculous trend of blaming Hillary Clinton for a war she never was involved in, and I never even heard of Kirkman before tonight.

Kootiepatra
4 years ago

For whatever it’s worth, I had zero clue who Jen Kirkman was before this post. Her tweet at the top of the article is the first time I’ve knowingly read a word of hers. And I thought it was blazingly obvious sarcasm, especially with the capitalized “LIKE”. I figured the options were:

A) People accuse her of being fond of murder, but it should be obvious she’s not;

B) People accuse her of being uncritical of Clinton, but it should be obvious she’s not;

Or C) People accuse Clinton of literally murdering people, and it should be obvious she hasn’t.

Whether or not the joke was tasteful or her responses were acceptable is a side point, and I join with everyone else in firmly and unambiguously condemning the death threats she has received. But I think it’s worth noting that I, with no context to know who she is or how she talks, and no reason to give her the benefit of the doubt, could immediately tell that she wasn’t cheering for actual death.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
4 years ago

I’d never heard of her either, and my first thought was “Oh God, that fucking Vince Foster thing again? I’ll never understand why the brogressives are so happy to accept a right-wing conspiracy theory that literally requires Hillary to be a telepathic wizard. Well, misogyny, of course, but still.”

Matt
Matt
4 years ago

If you really think she was misunderstood, perhaps you should explain her follow-up joke about dead Afghans.

https://twitter.com/SeanMcElwee/status/760990290681487360

Chop My Head Off Please

she followed it up by complaining that she was being attacked by “Social Justice Warriors” and directly mocking someone who said they had had to bury family members, telling them that they would have to do it again soon. Really good business all around

Howard
Howard
4 years ago

Just FYI, GamerGhazi has a thread about this post – and they don’t seem to like it, not one bit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/GamerGhazi/comments/4w7ixr/twitter_progressives_bombard_jen_kirkman_with/

MissEB47
MissEB47
4 years ago

Also, to the victim blaming arseholes-go fuck yourselves. Seriously. Men make rape jokes, celebrate genocide, make sexist and anti-Semitic memes, stalk and harass women for fun (men do all this online on a daily basis and dp not receive rape and death threats). That’s totes ok with you, but god forbid a women makes a statement about the ridiculous and groundless vilification of Hillary Clinton!!! Jen Kirkman deserves all the rape and death threats and harassment she gets!!!/sarcasm. Making a sarcastic, ironic joke is no justification for death and rape threats. I don’t care if you didn’t find it funny, I don’t care if you THINK it could be taken out of context, I don’t care if you think it was in poor taste, no-one, NO-ONE deserves this torrent of rape and death threats for making a fucking tweet, especially one as innocuous as this. You saying that she deserves this is not cool. Also women have frequently been the victims of this type of abuse, often from men. It is not the first time a woman said something innocuous and had a barrage of abuse thrown at her. For example:

https://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2016/06/19/bigots-swarm-an-american-muslim-writer-after-daily-caller-attacks-her-for-innocuous-tweet/

People who abuse women online are looking for anything, no matter how small or innocuous, to take out of context and use it as an excuse to harass, threaten and frighten women into silence. It is obvious that this is what happening to Jen Kirkman. To victim blame those on the receiving end of this behaviour only makes things worse for women. It also makes you complicit in the abuse. Just stop it already.

Kevin Carson
4 years ago

I interpreted it as an in-your-face response to left-wingers who object that Clinton killed a lot of foreign people of color via military attacks — which is, in fact, true.

Viscaria
Viscaria
4 years ago

Quoting the unassailable Kootiepatra:

Disagree with Futrelle’s defense of the joke or Kirkman, if you want to. Not everyone needs to agree that Kirkman is funny or clever. But it’s not really the point. Turning to the same violent responses one sees from the red pill right, while using support for Jill Stein as a shield from criticism for said responses and ignoring how others find this very uncomfortable, isn’t defensible because the speaker is also being awful.

Yes. Exactly. I have no idea if Jen Kirkman is the very worst person in the whole wide world. It’s still not okay that she be the victim of misogynistic abuse. Condoning targeted misogynistic harassment of the “bad” women who “deserve it” hurts all of us. It says that our humanity can be revoked if we don’t follow the rules. It makes not being targeted with misogyny into a privilege, when it should be a goddamn right.

So don’t a) come in here with your harassment apologetics, and b) bring up the shitty things she’s done, and then say that opposition to a) means we obviously agree with her on b). You may have connected the two. I am fervently opposed to connecting the two.

Kate
Kate
4 years ago

What amazes me is how the regulars are excusing what Jen said. Even more surprising is David whitewashing Jen’s actions, when his central point would still stand even with her more awful tweets included.

I enjoyed lurking here and I’ve enjoyed the comments, but I really don’t think this is the place for me.

weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo

I see the “actually it’s about ethics in comedy” brigade kept up while I was sleeping.

I’m guessing that a lot of these harassers would like to make rape and death threats to Hillary Clinton. But they know she’s one of the few women for whom law enforcement would take those threats seriously. So, not wanting to take the chance of facing real world consequences, they go after a lower level target.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
4 years ago

I enjoyed lurking here and I’ve enjoyed the comments, but I really don’t think this is the place for me.

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: We don’t care. If you (general you) think that harassing and threatening women is ever justified, for any reason, then you don’t belong here. Leaving will make us glad to have one less troll, not beg for you to come back and grace us lessers with your glowing presence or whatever it is you want. Okay?

Plus, the whole “We don’t even know who you morons are” thing.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
4 years ago

Or even “harassing and threatening *anyone*”. Privileges make it so that, as usual, it’s women, poc, and the like who get most of it. But there is never, ever a moment where death threats is an appropriate answer.

(it’s just in case some morons believe that SFHC is advocating a special shield for women, when the goal is just that the protection priviliged men get be extended to everyone, most notably women)

Respect isn’t just for people you agree with, and a society is built upon a social agreement that some things aren’t acceptable. Political fight against something is authorized, mean personal accusation that are designed to make people get a depression aren’t.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
4 years ago

@Ohlmann

Oh, absolutely – you’re right, with all these drive-by dumbasses looking for screenshot fodder, I should be more specific. ^^;

@drive-by dumbasses

I said “Women” because this (and almost every other) case is about women, but as Ohlmann said, nobody deserves this bullshit. Ever.

nparker
nparker
4 years ago

The people saying that she deserves harassment because of her jokes should really think about being quiet. Ridiculous.

You can point out that she acted horribly (because she did) and point out that she was harassed horribly (because she was) without saying that one deserves the other. That is disgusting and needs to stop.

I’d also like to point out that the harassment is way, way worse than stupid jokes. Anyone who thinks otherwise also needs to back off from progressive movements.

Let’s also stop with the claims that Hillary is evil, or a war monger, or whatever. It is no better to do this than the BernieBros. She’s left wing and progressive and better than Trump.

Loquora
Loquora
4 years ago

I wish I could dig far enough back in my own posting history elsewhere to find some of the snarky comments I made. Mostly they’ve been about Hillary Clinton personally booting soldiers off planes over Iraq, taking the helmets off their heads so they would be more vulnerable and how she personally overthrew the entire US congress and subsequently appointed herself Queen of the Military in order to personally see to it she would kill as many US soldiers in foreign wars as possible. You know, like people do.

Or maybe, just maybe, she’s a single human being who was in a tough situation and did what she thought was best. And maybe, MAYBE, there are other human beings who had a lot more personal hand in American and foreign deaths than a single senator and secretary of state ever could. But then I remember that she’s a WOMAN who wants to be PRESIDENT and therefore every terrible thing she was in any kind of power anywhere at any time for is her fault.

But you know what the worst part is? Even if every single hyperbolic comment I made up was 100% factual it still wouldn’t justify leveling threats of harm, death or rape at her or her supporters.

nparker
nparker
4 years ago

Actually, I’d like to emphasise if I may, make it shorter:

Nothing Jem does makes it acceptable to harass her. Nothing. No joke could possibly make it acceptable.

I’d also like to add that I’m surprised that there are a few people here and elsewhere who, while claiming to be left wing and liberal, believe the lies, falsehoods and twisting of facts about Hillary Clinton. People saying she’s responsible for tonnes of deaths is disgusting and betrays an utter lack of understanding of actual politics.

I agree that Jen’s jokes should never have been made as they are horrible and link in to societal pressures. Harrassment because of these jokes is still very evil. I liked what kupo said particularly too.

Also, mocking the concept of safe spaces? Cabezoney has to be a 4channer or something, right?

I suppose that comment didn’t turn out to be shorter after all…

sarah_kay_gee
sarah_kay_gee
4 years ago

Welp, if I hadn’t already quit the Green Party and re-joined the DP, this would have been what pushed me out. Jen Kirkman is a national fucking treasure. “My CHEESY BREAD… that I BROUGHT” gets quoted on the reg in my circle.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
4 years ago

@nparker : are you french or have french as a maternal language by any chance ?

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
4 years ago

“Alcoholism is a mental illness, and alcoholics are more violent than average, so mentally ill people are more violent”.

Sometime I have actual hatred to ignorant know-it-all that I know IRL.

Falconer
Falconer
4 years ago

I hear the baying of the hounds. They pass under my window, and their call echoes back to me from over the hill.

In the morning, the news comes, affirming what I know implicitly to be the cause of the midnight baying: A woman opened her mouth on Twitter.

Pol
Pol
4 years ago

Well I’m a Green voter. Although, I must admit that I don’t know much about the American greens. But I can’t help but thinkings that there is a bit of irrational hate against the greens because of rigid old ideas.

Can any US nationals, or even anyone with some knowledge on the subject, tell me why they either object to or perhaps even support the greens?

booburry
booburry
4 years ago

This whole thing reminds me of a woman I followed on twitter who made a kind of shitty comment when that kid got attacked by the alligator at Disney. It was a week with a lot of black death in the news and she basically was saying she didn’t have the spoons to be outraged over the kid when there was all this other shit happening. It was a bit crass, but she was threatened, doxxed, chased off twitter, and fired from her job. I see dudebros saying shit much worse than what she said, what this comedian said in a daily basis…and they are not even joking! Rarely if ever done see them get dragged like women do. So sick of the bullshit.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
4 years ago

@Pol

Wrong thread, and we’ve already answered that in the right thread*.

Short version: I don’t have any problem with the Greens as a whole, but Stein specifically is a ridiculous crackpot. She’s an anti-vaxxer who thinks wifi signals eat brains like a friggin’ zombie.

*I’m generously assuming that you’re not just trying to derail despite your history of trolling.

nparker
nparker
4 years ago

@ Ohlmann

I’m afraid not. I speak a little French from doing French for my GCSEs, but I’m not very good!

@boobury

Uh, that’s horrible. It also goes to show that these harassers don’t really care about the boy in your example at all, they just want an excuse to unleash their bile.

Also it proves once again that it seems to be one rule for women and one rule for men- men are allowed to make mistakes and we’re supposed to fawn over them if they do, but when a woman makes a mistake they get subjected to horrible stuff that no circumstances could justify.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
4 years ago

@Pol : the article is about the antics of some american green supporters.

To give an example of how a “green” party can go wrong, I would tale tjhe french green party. (note that I talk of the FRENCH one, not the american one, so the issues with the american one are likely different)

It’s a party who have very intense, hateful turf wars between its numerous sub factions, and the amount of sheer vitriol that are exchanged is insane. I have personaly seen abuses similar to the one lobbed to the target of this articles in emails destined to one of the party leader. And written by other green militant, I mean.

There’s a bunch of other problems. The party often tend to more be a communist party with a green layer, which muddy its position and make some of its declaration strange in the eye of people not in the known.

It’s also one of the party who is the most infamous about trying to find cozy electoral position for its members. As in, they regulary claim several senators and/or delegate (“député”) in unloseable electoral district to secure their alliances with the Socialist party, and then use them as reward position for their top brass, who aren’t localy implanted but see their positions as they own.

kupo
kupo
4 years ago

@Pol
I used to support the Green party but lately they’ve been spouting a lot of anti-science nonsense. Not sure what that has to do with a woman getting death threats on twitter, though. Care to share your reasoning for asking that in this thread?

Pol
Pol
4 years ago

@sfhc

Thanks for the heads-up. I’ll take a look at that thread.

And I do quite disagree with anti-vaxxers. So if Jill Stein is one of them, then she really needs to get a clue.

She would be bringing a bad name to The Greens if she were anti-science.

Deb
Deb
4 years ago

I can’t help but notice that there are no actual death threats shown in this article. Please tell me you haven’t lied or exaggerated the facts of this case to prop up your argument.

One other thing: your entire blog is devoted to calling out bad behavior, but you’ve defended Kirkman because she’s on “your team” – i.e. she’s an affluent white woman who shares your politics. It’s hypocritical to fully embrace callout culture but immediately go to “jeez, lighten up, IT’S JUST A JOKE” as soon as someone calls your team out. Isn’t that what the bigots always say? Isn’t that the kind of thing you don’t take as a valid excuse? By your own rules she has privilege over the people she is joking about, and is “punching down” instead of punching up. If you want anyone to take you seriously you need to be consistent, not just a cheerleader for your own cultural group.

leftwingfox
leftwingfox
4 years ago

My personal issue with the Greens in the US at the moment is that they’re most active when they’re least effective: during the presidential elections.

The US voting system mathematically does not support third-party candidates, and structurally opposes them. We need to change the voting system before the Green party has a chance in the federal election, and that needs to happen between election cycles, not during them.

Neither Nader nor Stein appear willing to accept this. Were they willing to accept there was zero chance of winning the presidency, they could use their campaign as a way to encourage the kind of electoral system changes that would make them viable, instead of acting as spoiler candidates to their closest ideological allies.

Falconer
Falconer
4 years ago

The drone strike programs date back to W. Obama certainly expanded them, as he drew down boots on the ground. Yet in this thread, plenty of folks have blamed it on Clinton. Well, Bush and Obama aren’t running for election.

The realistic choice is Clinton or Trump. Stein will not get elected, and she may split the vote enough that Trump wins.

There’s no reason to believe that Trump will curtail the drone programs. He couldn’t grasp why he can’t just use nukes on all the security problems, so there’s plenty of reason to believe he will ratchet up the nuclear tensions.

I can’t do anything about the drone programs, but I can do something about Armageddon, by voting for Clinton.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
4 years ago

Well, Bush and Obama aren’t running for election women.

Fixed that for you.

Marinerachel
Marinerachel
4 years ago

Harassment being unacceptable and whether Kirkman is badly behaved appear to be separate issues to me.

Kevin Carson
4 years ago

I’m aware of the danger of splitting the vote and putting Trump in, and I do consider him worse than Clinton. That’s why I plan to hold my nose and vote for her — drones and all — if my state is competitive in November. But for a certain kind of Clinton supporter, voting for her as the lesser evil isn’t good enough. Being less than enthusiastic, or commenting on her horrible record as a hawk and an imperialist, is an affront even from those voting for her.

And considering I voted against Bush both times, and voted for Obama with the same mental reservations I have for Clinton, I think the “a woman — fixed that for you” thing is disingenuous as hell.

Falconer
Falconer
4 years ago

@SFHC: Thank you.

Falconer
Falconer
4 years ago

@Kevin Carson:

Far be it from me to hold out anyone as beyond criticism.

I think the “a woman — fixed that for you” thing is disingenuous as hell.

Without trying to silence SFHC, I would ask — as disingenuous as blaming military and CIA programs on the former Secretary of State?

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
4 years ago

I think the “a woman — fixed that for you” thing is disingenuous as hell.

And I think the “I, a man, am better at spotting misogyny than a feminist woman” thing is go to hell.

Zatar
Zatar
4 years ago

Unlike Hilary Clinton, Donald Trump has yet to launch a war that leaves thousands maimed and dead.

Uh, neither has Clinton, she’d have to be president to do that. And if you honestly believe that Trump won’t start a bunch of wars than I think your being rather willfully ignorant.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ falconer

I don’t want to get involved in the specific debate here (FWIW I think Hillary has been a near excellent SoS and will make a fine President) but the legality of drone operations and who may or may not be liable for their use is a pretty interesting topic. You might find this interesting. It’s from a UK perspective but it does cover a bit about US policy, not least because the UK sort of is/isn’t* part of that.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/jt201516/jtselect/jtrights/574/574.pdf

(*Whether we’re part of it in a legal sense is one of the complex issues)