Men’s Rights Activists and their MGTOW fellow travelers would probably be a lot more effective in fighting male suicide if there weren’t so many of them who think suicide is kind of cool.
In the Men Going Their Own Way subreddit today, a fellow called Zombocom1911 posted a link to a story about a man who slashed his own throat with a straight razor while sitting at the kitchen table in front of his wife and kids.
To Zombocom1911, the obvious question raised by this deeply unsettling story was this: “Can suicide be considered MGTOW?”
Chillingly, some of Zombocom1911’s compadres on the MGTOW subreddit seem to think the answer is “yes.”
aanarchist, while acknowledging that the man’s actions were “really f*cked up,” couldn’t quite contain his admiration.
“what a badass to do that sh*t in front of his own family,” he wrote in a comment that actually got upvotes from his peers. “it’s like looking them in the eye and going all f*ck you, death is preferable to slavery.”
Yes, I’m sure his wife and children benefitted enormously from this lovely message.
aanarchist went on to suggest that large numbers of men killing themselves could strike a powerful blow against women and feminists.
i’d say that suicide is letting feminism win but in reality the worst possible thing for women and feminism is a reduction in the male population. women’s comforts are built upon an abundance of manpower. if you cut down the population of men enough they go through some pretty strifey periods cuz no one’s there to provide for them.
You may recall a gentleman at Return of Kings making a strikingly similar argument not long ago — although his preferred method of man-elimination was to send as many men as possible to die horribly in wars.
You may also recall how, several years ago, Men’s Rights activists turned a fellow MRA who burned himself alive outside of a family courthouse in Maine into a sort of Men’s Rights martyr, celebrating him in song and doing their best to disseminate the frankly terroristic manifesto he left behind, in which he urged other men to take up his cause by firebombing courthouses and police stations.
There are, to be sure, some MRAs and MGTOWs who are genuinely concerned about male suicide, though very few of them have actually done anything at all about it. They might start by trying to convince their ideological compatriots that suicide is not actually cool.
@Ohlmann
Would not doubt it 1 bit
@joekster
just wanna clarify for the casual reader, that a manic episode is often NOT immediately followed by a depressive episode, but by a plateau period. It really depends on the person and situation and diagnoses, but thats a common misperception. eta: Its also a common misperception that you couldnt be suicidal due to mania, you can, in fact mania can be an intensely unpleasant, high anxiety, nightmare.
Why is it that when terrible hear about something, they either go “Yay!” or “How can we turn this into a MRA thing?” I don’t understand how you can do that.
“A man killed himself in front of his family? AWESOME! More people should do it!”
@Unlucky Blackjack
Because they don’t care for human lives and hate other people.
@ohlman: my apologies for any presumption on my part. Let that serve as a warning against Internet diagnosis 🙂
@flora: fist bump back. I was never diagnosed with depression, but my psychiatrist during residency started me on Sertraline to help with some underlying anxiety, and it helped almost as much as the Strattera has. Funny thing, eh?
@Kale: thank you for the clarification. We had a saying in medical school: ‘patients don’t read textbooks’. I’ve actually taken care of individuals with bipolar 1 d/o who never have a depressive episode. Agreed that the manic phase can trigger SI as well. It’s a difficult disorder to have, and can be very hard to treat.
@unlucky blackjack: second what Ooglyboggles said. Some people just want to watch the world burn.
The original article is from 2010, and the author, Vincent Zandri, discloses it was his paternal great-grandfather who commited this suicide:
https://archive.is/sk4pd
Yeah, real badass, guys. Right.
I, too, had an ex (boyfriend, not husband) who would threaten suicide whenever I had enough of his drama. Finally it got to the point that I sighed, told him “You do that. Don’t let the door to the afterlife hit you in the ass on the way out,” packed up the stuff I had at his house and exited stage right. As far as I know, he’s still alive to this day.
As for the blog post itself, anymore I’m not surprised at anything any of these miserable excuses for human beings say. It’s probably a sad place to have gotten to, even with MGTOW.
The thing that stood out to me was the belief that, if lots of men killed themselves, women would be totally lost without those men to provide for them.
Contrast that with what ACTUALLY happened in that exact situation, during and following the two World Wars. The absence or death of millions of men left a huge void in the industrial and social machine…that women stepped up to fill with gusto. Women staffed the factories, grew the food, earned the money and generally got shit done.
@Tosca: C’mon, when have these guys’ delusions ever been snipped in the bud by reality?
They carry on, despite the facts. It’s, apparently, what ALPHA MAYUNLY MEN WHO ARE EVENTUALLY GOING THEIR OWN WAY FROM NASTY WIMMENS do.
Every list of warning signs on domestic violence I’ve ever read includes threatening suicide as a means of control. It’s definitely a common thing. It’s no surprise that manurespherians would approve of this behavior as they approve of all abuse so long as it’s against a woman.
And here’s some Maru gifs for anyone who needs some cheer
http://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkhldqFopT1qg20muo1_500.gif
http://data.whicdn.com/images/48354643/large.gif
Not suicide-related, but rather…
“in reality the worst possible thing for women and feminism is a reduction in the male population.”
It’s going to be gigantically cultural, but there is already a sort of what happened due to male genocide in Rwanda. If they gave a fuck, they could CHECK. Heck, the genocide was even weighted towards academics, so they can CHECK on what happens when the ‘betas’ are gone.
Quite apart from the fact that vast numbers of male and female survivors have terrible PTSD, and were violently attacked in massive proportions, there have been two outcomes which haven’t had anything to do with manosphere predictions.
One is that more educated women have ended up in greater positions of power, because the vacuum has allowed them to achieve them. Rwanda has better government parity than most other places in the world and there has been fast-forwarded cultural change around this. Women massively fostered orphaned and abandoned children, changing the social landscape hugely. They have created vast and powerful groups which achieve things like policies around AIDs, flooding, and natural disasters. The post-genocide period has also been characterised by women performing non-traditional roles such as decision-making, managing financial resources, building households and roads.
The other outcome is that women who cannot leverage social relationships have ended off with worse domestic violence from some men who correctly feel that they can do anything and still find a partner. The gender imbalance is working in the favour of these men. However, there is a big social movement now against intimate partner violence, and as women become ever more permitted to act outside the home, the power these men have is undermined.
So we do have some data.
@joekster
Absolutely.
But he never said that he’d kill himself if I left him. Not even when I did leave him (due to his abuse). He would threaten suicide over, say, his computer malfunctioning. (That was a frequent complaint.)
That said, it is my belief that he was insincere in his threats of suicide.
I appreciate you pointing out the problem of being with this kind of guy. Other people pointing out the problems with our relationship was a kind of reality therapy for me throughout our relationship. It helped me to finally dump his sorry ass.
Well, that was fucking horrible. First the post itself, in all its jaw-dropping awfulness, and then the de-rail. Thank you so much to everyone who has ‘weighed in’ – I feel a lot better for having persisted through the comments 🙂
Suicide is not selfish or cowardly, as some people claim, but that doesn’t mean that it’s the opposite of these things. And it will always be a tragedy for someone.
On the more specific topic of men’s rights and suicide, there’s a group here in Aust called 21 Fathers; the name is based on their claim that every week in this country, 21 men kill themselves as a direct result of Family Court decisions on divorce and/or custody. Even one per week is too many, obviously – but the figures are incorrect, and the group does little to actually help men in these situations. Instead they direct their anger to feminists/women (surprise, surprise) and campaign to have the Family Court abolished. It’s heart-breaking and infuriating because there are men who desperately need help and I feel they’re being used.
Was reading a post on a feminist site today with a title that read, “Does Misandry Exist?”
I had to really laugh at the comments by feminists. One posted that she wasn’t comfortable with the word misandry because it implied that men suffered as much as women through institutionalized misogyny. Hilarious.
Women didn’t demand equality with men until men made it safe for them to have equality with men (cowardly women exploiting men’s esteem for women). Women were handed their equality on a silver platter by men when women demanded equality. They didn’t fight and die for their rights the way men did. Instead, they simply demanded their rights as a result of men’s deaths. That’s why women demand equality without the expectation of responsibility. It’s institutionalized misandry.
Institutionalized misogyny? Men get far harsher sentences for the same crimes and that’s institutionalized misogyny? The vast majority of alimony, asset division and child support goes from men to women and that’s institutionalized misogyny? The male-only draft is institutionalized misogyny? That men suffer like 98% of war and workplace deaths is institutionalized misogyny? That the bulk of state and federal spending on health, education and welfare goes to women – even though men pay the majority of taxes – is institutionalized misogyny? The list goes on, and on, and on.
Isn’t this really institutionalized misandry? Guess what? You’re all died in the wool misandrists, ‘ladies’!
Most women and white knights have a really loose, hypocritical grip on reality. Were it not for man hating feminists, MGTOW wouldn’t exist. MGTOW are the only intelligent men left out there. At the very least – they’re highly realistic and see straight through the lesbian, feminist BS.
MGTOW are what happens when you man-hating lesbians make your hatred of men and desire of male disposability too obvious. Tone it down a bit and you may survive for another few decades without male handouts – those things to which you’ve become so accustomed.
@Unlucky Blackjack
Remember when one of them showed up here to say that they “chose to go their own way” instead of calling the police when they saw a woman get assaulted? “Because of how women treated me” or similar?
It’s about leaving a message for those they think wronged them. They want a way to make other people feel something and they are envious. Because even if for some of them it’s about going their own way for a little while, the endless cycles of hating what they are leaving make it about something else.
@Kale: I’m glad you were able to get out of that relationship. My apologies if I came off as condescending. Re-reading my post, I can see that it could be read as a bit preachy, and that was not my intent.
If you do feel bad about that relationship, you shouldn’t (if you don’t feel bad about it, than that’s cool). I’ve noticed that people find it very difficult, if not impossible, to be objective about the people closest to them.
I don’t care if Mnemni is banned.
Fuck you, Mnemni. Fuck you.
@joekster
I appreciate what you said.
And you’re right — it’s really hard to be objective about the person you love. That’s especially true when the person you love is actively working to trick you into believing that he is a reasonable person. That’s the way batterers usually start out.
This is probably one of the most horrible things I’ve seen coming from MGTOW and that’s saying a lot. I immediately thought of my own dad who has struggled with depression in the past. I love him dearly and to think of these men encouraging vulnerable people to hurt themselves – and in front of their kids, probably scarring them for life – is more than sickening. It’s abominable.
long time lurker, so first of all I have a lot of respect for David, the community of this blog, and the surrounding discussions. I felt compelled to comment because of the hostile responses and ultimate ban of Mnemni.
Possible triggers.
I hope I can offer another perspective & be allowed to participate in the conversation. I hope my outsiderness will not prevent me from doing so or illicit the hostility directed at Mnemni (ex: comments like “go fuck yourself” I realize this blog isn’t a “safe space” but, holy hell, I cannot handle that right now). As a bipolar person who is frequently and currently suicidal and lives with a chronic disease that results in immense pain, I feel like I can relate to what Mnemni said. In fact, I have spoken in such a way often. I frequently feel defensive when I feel that people minimize suicide or demonize those who do it. I did not feel this was David’s aim but can completely understand the defensiveness & drive to stand up for the suicidal so to speak. Though I would certainly try to stop and help a friend who felt suicidal I still feel this way.
A family member who was living with a debilitating disease killed himself. Every family reunion I attend I have to listen to family members discuss the selfishness of said deceased family member. I stopped going & minimize family contact. It isolates and it hurts & I usually want to say something but then would out myself as damaged. Maybe Mnemni’s misreading of David’s post was just a reaction to something they are going through. My bipolar brain often frames being suicidal as being a coward and that I should just do it. I usually don’t share this bc of potential triggers and shame. I’m out of energy, I hurt & im tired so that’s all I got & i hope it was useful somehow.
I’ve gone through periods of suicidal ideation and while in retrospect I was clearly very unhappy, at the time it just felt sort of numb. I’d desensitised myself to it so much that it was almost impossible for me to tell what I was feeling, and so my emotions came through very oddly.
If anyone – anyone – reading this is in the same state of mind and doesn’t have anyone else they can talk to, you can always talk to me. If you feel that nobody else cares, I care, because you are my fellow human and we are not islands. I can direct you to resources, but even if you don’t want to be directed to them, please talk to someone.
On a different note, psychology is so a science. It tests its theories with real-live data, does not regard as true anything which is not experimentally supported, and does not make unfalsifiable assertions. This is the defining mark of a science.
@kale, kat:
I’m really glad you survived and that you got out. You’re awesome people and the community (and the world) is better off for having you be happier in it.
As someone who has attempted suicide in the past, I would like to send the following message to these MGTOW f**k-trumpets:
Thanks, EJ (The Other One)!
I’m glad that you’re in a better space these days too.
My heart is still thawing out. I appreciate your kind words.