Men’s Rights Activists and their MGTOW fellow travelers would probably be a lot more effective in fighting male suicide if there weren’t so many of them who think suicide is kind of cool.
In the Men Going Their Own Way subreddit today, a fellow called Zombocom1911 posted a link to a story about a man who slashed his own throat with a straight razor while sitting at the kitchen table in front of his wife and kids.
To Zombocom1911, the obvious question raised by this deeply unsettling story was this: “Can suicide be considered MGTOW?”
Chillingly, some of Zombocom1911’s compadres on the MGTOW subreddit seem to think the answer is “yes.”
aanarchist, while acknowledging that the man’s actions were “really f*cked up,” couldn’t quite contain his admiration.
“what a badass to do that sh*t in front of his own family,” he wrote in a comment that actually got upvotes from his peers. “it’s like looking them in the eye and going all f*ck you, death is preferable to slavery.”
Yes, I’m sure his wife and children benefitted enormously from this lovely message.
aanarchist went on to suggest that large numbers of men killing themselves could strike a powerful blow against women and feminists.
i’d say that suicide is letting feminism win but in reality the worst possible thing for women and feminism is a reduction in the male population. women’s comforts are built upon an abundance of manpower. if you cut down the population of men enough they go through some pretty strifey periods cuz no one’s there to provide for them.
You may recall a gentleman at Return of Kings making a strikingly similar argument not long ago — although his preferred method of man-elimination was to send as many men as possible to die horribly in wars.
You may also recall how, several years ago, Men’s Rights activists turned a fellow MRA who burned himself alive outside of a family courthouse in Maine into a sort of Men’s Rights martyr, celebrating him in song and doing their best to disseminate the frankly terroristic manifesto he left behind, in which he urged other men to take up his cause by firebombing courthouses and police stations.
There are, to be sure, some MRAs and MGTOWs who are genuinely concerned about male suicide, though very few of them have actually done anything at all about it. They might start by trying to convince their ideological compatriots that suicide is not actually cool.
@Dawn Incognito and NiOg,
You two are absolutely correct. Suicide is the easy way out, and takes zero bravery. It’s easy precisely because you don’t have to deal with the consequences. Everyone else does.
Thanks for your comments.
Thanks for the explanations, Orion and PI !
@PI
Except, with me, it was ‘I could kill a few specific people in this room, and I wouldn’t much care if others though it was accidental’. I didn’t get the ‘WTF, brain!’ either. I didn’t act on it, and I didn’t even really wanna. But maybe I could tho
Eventually, I accepted I actually couldn’t. Don’t have the stomach for it. The idea of causing someone physical pain fills me with existential dread. That said, thinking it all thru did, oddly, give me something to focus on. Something fantastical, to distract from those people’s very real shittiness
Alright, that just kinda wrote itself. It probably doesn’t even have anything to do with what y’all were talking about…
@Axecalibur : not sure. The main difference seem to be that my reaction isn’t “I don’t have the stomach” but “it’s beneath me” or “they aren’t worth the effort anyway”. Might be due to difference in self-esteem.
@Virtuous Parasol:
I’m really glad you survived. You’re an awesome person and the world is better off for having you in it.
For the record, I am glad I didn’t succeed. But I wasn’t glad immediately, I was angry, because nothing changed. The world was still awful, I was still sick, and now I was locked up. It took several years for me to be glad I didn’t succeed, so it may be possible to know recent suicide attempters who wish they had succeeded. But the fact that serial suicide attempts are rare (I did try more than once, so it’s difficult for me to accept that, but I also understand that statistics are more relevant than my one personal experience) says a lot about the desire most people have to go on living.
Thank you, everyone who has shared their story how suicide (threats, attempts, thoughts, etc) has affected you. That’s truly brave. Hugs to everyone who wants them.
Can you imagine wanting to punish your children with life long trauma? For what? For being children who need to be cared for?
And what did the poor mother do aside from make the mistake of marrying an abusive misogynist?
MGTOW don’t want women to work or remain single, but they hate stay at home mothers so much they get off on imagining them seeing their children watch their father take his own life in a messy way and then dealing with the aftermath forever.
I bet these MGTOW think they are “nice guys”.
Women are the worst for not fucking them and if they do, women are still the worst. They’re only happy when they have an excuse to abuse women and they see child abuse as a great way to abuse women.
…and they wonder why we keep choosing partners who aren’t them.
The “suicide takes courage” line of reasoning gets it exactly wrong, but I think it’s an over-correction to call it cowardly. Suicide isn’t an act of courage OR cowardice; it’s one of desperation, and yes, usually short-term desperation at that.
Ok. MGTOWS are officially horrible people. I knew that was already pretty evident, but now it’s confirmed. To celebrate what is a horrible tragedy as a way of getting back at women? I lack the words.
TW: suicide stories
@PI: Agree that staying alive is often the more courageous option. There were several times in medical school and in my first year of residency that I seriously considered jumping off a tall building. In my intern year, I went as far as going over to the edge of the fourth floor of the hospital parking garage and staring down over the edge. Those were times when I was having significant educational issues (ADHD makes med school really, really tough, by the way), and I had trouble seeing a way out.
I told my psychiatrist that I decided not to because I didn’t think my parents should have to bury another child (their first child died of SIDS the day she was born), and that’s part of the truth. But, the main reason I stepped back from that brink was sheer stubbornness: I realized that taking that step would be giving up, and I’m to contrary to do that.
One of the prelims whom I did my intern year with (1) decided otherwise. This guy was actually a friend of mine, and he’d actually encouraged me to try and get together with the woman who is now my wife. Less than six months into his actual residency, he drove into a parking garage and shot himself with a gun his wife didn’t even know he had. I hadn’t spoken to him after he went on from my program to his actual residency, and I’ve felt guilty about that ever since. Part of me thinks that if I’d bothered to reach out to him, I might have been able to pull him back from the brink. I mean, what sort of friend doesn’t know when a friend is suffering that way? What sort of physician can miss those signs in one of the people he works with on a weekly basis? On the other hand, he had everything to live for: he was married to a woman he loved, and training for a profession he was seriously excited about.
(1) for non-medical people, residencies in specialties such as ophthalmology, radiology, anesthesiology, dermatology, and radiation oncology require their residents to do a preliminary year in medicine or surgery prior to their actual residency, where they are basically interns. It’s a throwback to the days when they were sub-specialties of internal medicine.
@everyone who struggles or has struggled with suicidal ideation: I’m thrilled that you’ve kept on. The world is just a little better because you’re in it. Hang in there.
@the troll upthread: What everyone else said.
@Ohlmann Edgar Allen Poe talks about this:
http://www.poestories.com/read/imp
Oh, and ‘psychology isn’t a science’? I lolled. Hard. It’s a soft science and mostly relies on subjective data, but it’s still a science, and it’s becoming harder all the time.
@Freemage:
I agree. It does take bravery to end your life; and I feel like many, if not most, suicidal people feel like they are actually improving the lives of those they are leaving behind. It’s not an “easy way out”, but it is an abdication.
I’ve heard it said that suicide “is a permanent solution to a temporary problem”. I disagree with that aphorism quite vehemently. I was abused for approximately 35 years of my just-shy-of-40-year life. I’ve had chronic pain and fatigue since my early 20s and doctors haven’t been able to help. I’ve had suicidal thoughts since the age of 12. The problem isn’t temporary, and it’s goddamn exhausting. And a lot of times I wish I could just stop.
But! Is the pain unbearable all of the time? No. Am I depressed or despairing all of the time? No. Do I have moments of comfort or happiness? Sure! (Playing Pokemon Go last night, for example. That was fun!) And I know that I have people who truly love me and would miss me if I was gone. And would probably always feel like there was something they could have done, much like joekster above. (It’s not your fault.)
Choosing to take your life does take a form of courage. But I say again that it’s braver to choose to keep living even when living sucks ass most of the time and it’s hard to see how it can get better.
Internet hugs for anyone who wants or needs ’em.
Hugs (if you want them!) to everyone on this thread who’s struggled with the idea of suicide. You’ve survived! That’s a really good thing.
Hugs-if-you-want-them to everyone else because this is a difficult subject.
David Futrelle said this:
I didn’t know that was a thing in adults. Thanks for pointing that out.
It explains an ex of mine who often threatened suicide, although it wasn’t because of what I did or didn’t do. He was abusive, though, and I’m certain he would have worked his way into blaming me for his suicidal thoughts.
My current boyfriend said that my ex was using threats of suicide in an insincere way. It hadn’t occurred to me before he said that because mental health experts say to always take the threats seriously.
This happened once with my ex.
He called me up and threatened suicide because he couldn’t find his work calendar — which actually was a really important thing. He couldn’t do his work without this detailed calendar. I dropped what I was doing and took a cab to his place. I arrived, got the whole story, and found the calendar in 10 minutes flat. (He had taken a nap on his bed while holding the calendar. It slipped out of his hands and fell between the bed and the wall.)
He told me he had written suicide notes to me and his child. They were in his briefcase. I told him to tear them up after I left.
Then he said that he was unhappy that I had found his calendar.
“What! Why?”
“You’ve given me one less reason to kill myself.”
As though you need to have a perfectly thought out list of reasons for killing yourself. It’s got to be air tight! Then and only then can you kill yourself.
I’m not mocking people who are suicidal.
Like David and many other commenters on this thread, I am saying that it’s not cool to use threats of suicide — or suicide, for Dog’s sake — as a way to control people or show them just how powerful you are.
I can’t help but wonder if the “courage” thing is leftover from the Roman influence on western civilization, where if you’re a stoic you make the rational decision to end your life and everyone’s fine with it and admires you. It seems common in heavily militarized cultures (Rome, Prussia, Japan) that the Manliest of Manly Deeds is the willingness to kill yourself if need be, reaching absurd lengths with Russian roulette and the like. This seems to be what these people are reaching for with their “better than slavery” rhetoric.
Though of course, being asswipes, doubtless they’d use this to claim that African slaves were wimps, because if they were truly manly they’d just have killed themselves, so slavery would never have happened. See? Slavery can’t have been that bad! It was better than killing yourself! That or Africans just aren’t manly. /s
They’d probably also agree with the Roman et al. “raped women should kill themselves to restore their lost honor” thing, though their tiny little minds would probably explode trying to work out what to think of women killing themselves when their cities fell before the conquerors could get there. After all, it would be the right thing to do, but they’d be cheating the Manly Conquerors of their prize.
Vindication and a brief moment of fame to fuel martyrdom of a victim complex. That is what these MGTOW think of. This obsession with death is really a useless thought for them, instead of caring of life, they need to focus on how to tear down others under the guise of being free (to complain about women and how to hurt them). My personal view when it comes down to it in a medical stance, if someone is suffering, terminal and they want to end it peacefully, by all means they have a right to die. Any other time the person needs a sympathetic ear and some help, not a knife or a high balcony.
Hell, if you want me to be really cold about it, I can provide some evidence why even to a so called rational human, suicide would harm them too. But I’d rather not, it’ll sound too dehumanizing to very real incidents that affect real people.
I actually find this to be the one quote I can read without going into a frothing rage. Maybe it’s the poor spelling, maybe it’s the run one sentences. In a sardonic way it’s so fascinating how he manages a paradox of not valuing himself and other men, while also considering himself integral to the “feminist machine.” Notice how he uses the term “male population” and “manpower”. For one who cares of men, he sure likes to make them seem like cattle or workhorses.
How appropriate for a MGTOW to wish that others should die so they can be relieved of a threat, even temporarily. Even he admits that it’ll only be “strifey periods”. So even in a master stroke stance, he’s only doing it for sheer pettiness rather than some lasting impact that could cause real regression in women’s rights and happiness.
This is what MRA’s consider other men, they talk so much of how feminism or x wave is ruining society and them women are all so entitled. Then they demand and fantasize that scores of men should die for them for any and all reasons, that any form of compromise is weakness or any human emotion is weakness. They don’t even care about other men, the courts thing? That’s a damn lie, both parents are considered equals in court of law. Any other thing they say is often just pure lies and exaggerations that may as well be a fabrication.
So any men who actually thinks these people care for you, they don’t. They really just see you like any wannabe plutocrat, a disposable pawn they can martyr for their own petty, selfish gains.
Paradoxy said
I’ve had this happen and I’m pretty neurotypical. I’ve also done the adolescent “If I killed myself, that’d show ’em!” thing when I was mad at my parents, which I think is pretty common, too.
Hugs to all who’ve made it through real suicidal feelings, glad you’re all still here!
@ PI and Ohlmann: the technical term for those are ‘intrusive thoughts’.
They are NOT a symptom of mental illness, 100% of people have them. It’s just that most of the time your brain regulates them fast enough that they don’t consciously register.
What I’ve heard about them is that they’re a vestige of childhood social learning. When you’re a kid you don’t know how to behave appropriately in moments of social stress or interaction, so your brain runs scenarios, then tries to pick the best one as an action. This is why kids do random things, like drop breakables or grab coals out of fireplaces.
“What will happen if I…”
After a while, through feedback from other humans, kid-you needs to do this less and less, but your brain still initiates the run-sequence for wild scenarios and sometimes they still fire. This creates an ‘intrusive thought’, leaving normally well-socialized you going “WTF was that? Did I really just fantasize about [horrible thing]?”
Before the age of 30, four guys I knew took their own life. They ranged in age from early 20s through to their 50s. All were from different backgrounds and had gone through different experiences, and yet suicide is still the biggest killer I’ve known. Friends have had cancer, but they’ve pulled through, and even adding up the number of people I’ve known that have died from other causes, suicide is still in pole position.
Why am I sharing this? Because there is a legitimate argument to be made that suicide awareness and prevention among men is something that needs to be urgently addressed and nonsense like this from MGTOW’s frankly boils my piss. At one point I may have felt pity, as to me, many of the men who turn to MGTOW philosophy are vulnerable and isolated i.e. at risk from toxic and harmful ideology, but this is downright dangerous. Suicide, even in circumstances where it is controlled and carefully considered (such as legally assisted suicide) should not ever be glorified or celebrated. This really does feel like MRA’s are pissing all over the issue of male suicide, be it the action itself or the conditions – whatever they may be – that lead up to it, especially if they are preventable. But hey, that dude really stuck it to his missus, right! That’ll show her and the kids! Considering how MRA’s point-blank refuse to accept the reality of a system that enforces harmful codes of behaviour on both women and men, it’s no wonder they don’t have a clue how to start combating male suicide. I mean, just look at this:
I’m not going to pretend that there aren’t issues concerning marriage as an institution, but why get angry at your wife and children if you feel trapped by a system that demanded that of you? Why not get angry at that very system and condense your energy into challenging it? Play the game, not the ball.
And I just want to throw it out there as someone who has suffered with suicidal ideation that from my experience, the times I’ve come closest to acting out my impulses have been exactly that – impulses. Not something that comes out of hours or even days of planning, but spur-of-the-moment, opportunistic windows of time where I’ve thought “Hey, I’m not doing anything else and I’m home alone, may as well do it” and after talking to others who have considered suicide, I’ve come to the conclusion that the stereotypical “are they making plans/distancing themselves” indicators are the exception and not the rule, so even if you feel like you’re not ticking the right boxes to be considered suicidal, if the feeling is there, talk to someone about it and take some time to just sit there and breath. Everyone is vulnerable to suicide. It’s indiscriminate, even if some people are more vulnerable to suffering from it for any number of circumstances. David, if you could, would you mind adding some links to some resources on this post? Even if MGTOW’s are going to treat suicide like a pissing contest, I think this is a good opportunity to do a little good, just in case someone does tune into this blog and could do with the help.
@Kat: I’m pretty sure that if someone you’re in a relationship uses threats of suicide to keep you in it, that’s a warning sign. It’s tough to see that when you’re in it, though. I’m glad you’re in a healthier relationship now.
@Rabbid Rabbit: my understanding is that militaristic cultures generally do not value the life of the individual. If they did, they would not be so willing to risk the lives of their own soldiers in pointless wars (and yes, I’m aware that has nasty implications for my own US of A). Also, I’m pretty sure I’ve run across multiple stories of African slaves attempting to kill themselves, and I think most slaveowners did take measures to prevent that. However, I’m not a historian, just a dabbler in history. Can anyone else confirm that?
@NiOg: thanks for addressing the question about intrusive thoughts. I was going to say ‘obsession’, but intrusive thoughts only become obsessions if they are recurrent, prolonged, and frequent enough to interfere with one’s daily living. You are spot on in that they are universal, and only a sign of disease if they progress to obsessions.
@Ohlman: I don’t mean to pry, and feel free not to answer if you don’t feel comfortable doing so, but do you have a form of bipolar or cyclothymic d/o? (tw) The reason I ask is individuals who suffer from bipolar d/o are most often suicidal at the very end of their manic/hypomanic phases, just before they plunge into depression. It has to do with the combination of depressed mood and still having the energy to make suicidal plans. Again, please don’t answer if you don’t feel comfortable sharing. It’s a very personal question.
@EJ (The Other One)
Thank you. And supportive hugs (or preferred gesture of support) to those like me who had one bad moment that we fortunately survived.
@joekster : when I was young I have been actually in psychotherapy because my parents believed I had some kind of mental illness. The doctor assured I had no actual mental syndrom apart from being a teenager, and I trust him on that.
Also, I never did suicide attempts or started actual self-destructing behavior ; intrusive thoughts (thanks NiOg !) don’t seem to be synonymous with suicidal thoughts at all, or at least did not create them for me, and I remember having some since at least 15 years ago (likely before that, too, but my memory of that time is a lot patchier), so I am reasonably confident they are benign and here to stay.
@joekster
Fist bump for being a fellow ADHD physician who has struggled with mental health as a result. You can’t hold yourself responsible for your friend’s decision – just like with patients, we cannot help those who don’t reach out and ask for it.
Suicide is a tragic end of the line. Sometimes it is the best option, sometimes it seems like it might be. I’m deeply saddened by anyone who feel that is the choice they need to make, but I recognize that sometimes pain (mental, physical, or otherwise) can be intolerable. People who are suicidal deserve empathy. Empathy is not the same as failing to intervene. In fact, I would argue that not intervening to correct any correctable causes of suicidality would be profoundly cruel.