Men’s Rights Activists and their MGTOW fellow travelers would probably be a lot more effective in fighting male suicide if there weren’t so many of them who think suicide is kind of cool.
In the Men Going Their Own Way subreddit today, a fellow called Zombocom1911 posted a link to a story about a man who slashed his own throat with a straight razor while sitting at the kitchen table in front of his wife and kids.
To Zombocom1911, the obvious question raised by this deeply unsettling story was this: “Can suicide be considered MGTOW?”
Chillingly, some of Zombocom1911’s compadres on the MGTOW subreddit seem to think the answer is “yes.”
aanarchist, while acknowledging that the man’s actions were “really f*cked up,” couldn’t quite contain his admiration.
“what a badass to do that sh*t in front of his own family,” he wrote in a comment that actually got upvotes from his peers. “it’s like looking them in the eye and going all f*ck you, death is preferable to slavery.”
Yes, I’m sure his wife and children benefitted enormously from this lovely message.
aanarchist went on to suggest that large numbers of men killing themselves could strike a powerful blow against women and feminists.
i’d say that suicide is letting feminism win but in reality the worst possible thing for women and feminism is a reduction in the male population. women’s comforts are built upon an abundance of manpower. if you cut down the population of men enough they go through some pretty strifey periods cuz no one’s there to provide for them.
You may recall a gentleman at Return of Kings making a strikingly similar argument not long ago — although his preferred method of man-elimination was to send as many men as possible to die horribly in wars.
You may also recall how, several years ago, Men’s Rights activists turned a fellow MRA who burned himself alive outside of a family courthouse in Maine into a sort of Men’s Rights martyr, celebrating him in song and doing their best to disseminate the frankly terroristic manifesto he left behind, in which he urged other men to take up his cause by firebombing courthouses and police stations.
There are, to be sure, some MRAs and MGTOWs who are genuinely concerned about male suicide, though very few of them have actually done anything at all about it. They might start by trying to convince their ideological compatriots that suicide is not actually cool.
It’s also interesting that they view marriage as slavery (for men). To me, this minimizes the concept of slavery, which indicates unpaid labor. While men do some work around the house, in the garage, and so forth, this isn’t truly unpaid, since they do it for themselves, to gain something in their life. And the idea that they are “slaving” at their job to support the wife and kids – well, they are supporting themselves, too. They would not be free from working if they were single, unless somehow they were living with their mother or something.
They make a million assumptions everyday (OK, maybe only hundreds or thousands – a little hyperbole here) and then present them as facts. Was the man working? Was his wife working also, thereby reducing his slavery? Was the marriage a happy or unhappy one, and if so, why? I had serious depression and made more than one suicide attempt, never in front of anyone, least of all my own child. I do not blame my ex for my depression (he wasn’t terribly helpful, but…). This is a very real disease that threatens many of us, and that many of us struggle with daily. To assume someone kills themselves to “get back” at their wife and kids for putting them in slavery (?) is strange indeed, and overly simplistic.
@Mnemni
Or… be charitable. Every piece of context points in 1 direction. Everyone else got it fine. I dunno, maybe it’s you
@Paige
Sending love and hugs <3
Re: MGTOWs
Nothing is so base as glorifying traumatizing children. One's own, no less. The totality of your very beings ain't worth the bytes your drivel is printed on. And that's as far as I'm willing to go here
All my support, Paige. That’s a horrible situation to be in and I’m really glad you got out.
@Mnemni: from a person who’s struggled with suicidal thoughts most of his life, fuck you very much. You are not helping. It is entirely possible to condemn suicide as tragic and something not to be encouraged, while still having sympathy/empathy for people who end up victims of it. And at the same time, not all suicide is created equal (trivial example: assisted suicide for those suffering painful and incurable illnesses) and I see no reason to believe David’s “suicide is not cool” is reflecting on that. Context, it’s a thing.
@David: thank you very much for covering this.
It’s a bit surreal for me to read this, honestly, because I think in a parallel universe I could’ve been one of these people’s victims. I’ve struggled with suicidal thoughts most of my life (thankfully not so much now, but it’ll never be entirely gone), and as a lonely teenage nerdboy I spent some time being taken in at least partway by MRA/PUA ideology. I never got particularly far down the rabbit hole (and actually, contrasting dating advice given by those people with that given by women was one of the things that helped me find my way out). On some level I do wonder how close I came to further delusion; if I’d gotten a bit further in when I was young and impressionable I wonder if I’d have ever made it out. I don’t think even then the idea of committing suicide as an attack on people would have appealed to me, but I honestly cannot know, and I’m glad nobody mentioned anything like this to me when I was in that phase.
In any case, this is a very clear example of how toxic masculinity and patriarchy are harmful to men as well as women and nonbinary/gender-nonconforming people. Although honestly, I’m almost impressed that they’re not advocating murder-suicide like so many of these men end up resorting to. If you absolutely have to kill yourself, please at least have the courtesy of only killing yourself?
To be clear, I didn’t want my ex – as horrible, violent, rapey and abusive as he was – to actually commit suicide.
I just wanted him to stop using the threat of it as a weapon and method of control.
And thanks to all for the kind words 🙂 I don’t hang out here a lot but you lot are top shelf!
@Mnemni,
are you all right? Why the need to defend suicide? Sure, we all own our own bodies and it’s up to us what we do with them, by do you really see suicide as a mere matter of personal choice?
I recall philosopher David Hume writing at length upon this subject, but his argument was more about removing the social stigma attached to suicide by Christianity, the notion that it was something sinful.
Now I don’t regard suicide as sinful (and neither does David Futrelle I’ll wager), but it’s a tragic thing, the tragedy being that someone has reached a point in their lives where death seems preferable. His criticism were aimed at idiotic Redditors who celebrate it as some kind of rebellious act.
@Axecalibur
It seems a lot like everyone who “got it fine” shares the pro-life views I am ascribing, correctly or not, to David.
@Paige Hamilton,
yeah, I got that. Of course you didn’t want him to die, but the only way to deal with someone who makes those threats is not to give way to them.
I’ve spent years wondering what happened to my ex, but I figured if he actually did it he’d make damn sure I found out about it.
@ Mnemni
I am not pro-life and I “got it fine.” It’s stunningly obvious that David means “not cool” in the sense of “not something to be glorified,” not “not cool” like you’d say to your friend if they laughed at someone who had just tripped and fell. I get that, not only because of general context clues within the article, but because the first use of “cool” is David saying that some MGTOWs think “suicide is kind of cool.” It would be somewhat awkward to replace “cool” with “acceptable” in that sentence, so it sets the precedent for David’s use of “cool” here to mean “badass”… which, incidentally, is in the title to the post, too.
@Mnemni
I’m mostly staying out of discussing suicide because I have no personal experience with it and better people than I can shed some light on this very complex issue from several different angles… but you seem to focus on one angle alone in a very deliberate way: “Suicide can be good and if you don’t like people who commit suicide then you’re a judgmental buffoon.” (You never said buffoon, but it’s a nice word so I’m throwing it in.) Is that a fair assessment of your message? Could you say why your characterization of David and the fine people here seems to lean towards them negatively judging people who commit suicide even after many commenters have said otherwise? Is this really just over a choice of words – “cool” vs stylish? (I mean, you’re free to write your own articles and maybe one of your commenters will be a backseat writer criticizing your choice of bagel vs donut.)
@ mnemni
Are they a bad thing?!
I’m all for bodily autonomy but even when someone chooses euthanasia as a release from an intolerable quality of life surely that’s a last resort rather than a good thing? I’m sure if someone in that position could have the condition that forced that choice on them remedied they’d choose that and to carry on living.
ETA: Clarifying “pro-life” in relation to the topic at hand in case this is some sort of “Ha, you’re hypocritical about abortion” gotcha attempt.
Wait, aren’t these the same guys who constantly bring up the fact that the male suicide rate is 4 times what it is for women?
Mnemni, this post is about people celebrating suicide as a cool/badass thing to do. As pretty much everyone else reading this post seems to understand just fine, I’m saying that it isn’t any of those things, and that celebrating it is shitty.
CMH puts it really well:
And as everyone here knows, these sorts of guys often end up murdering their partners and their children before killing themselves.
I think one of the reasons these guys — the guys I’m writing about in the post — celebrate suicide is because they want women to be afraid they’ll “drive” some man to suicide. It’s the same logic that leads some people to threaten suicide on a regular basis as a way to get what they want from others.
I’ve been suicidal before. So have most of the important people in my life.
And you know what? Comitting or attempting suicide is in most cases, a bad thing to do. I’m enough of a utilitarian to consider things by a case by case basis, but I’m willing to say that 95% of the time, committing suicide is morally wrong. Remembering that has helped me stay alive.
@frances
Yep. But they seem almost proud of this, more or less mocking women for being less “successful” in their suicide attempts, as opposed to men who know how to get it done, dammit!
@Mnemi
I too have experienced suicidal thoughts, and I’m not pro-life, but in this matter I’m on Mr. Futrelle’s side. I’m not going to address your argument directly because it’s apparent to me that you’ve convinced yourself, and that what I’ve got to say would not be heeded. I’m just going to note that if you’re like everyone else (and I bet you are) you’re going to meet with a lot of opposition in life, opposition which is real; that being so, it’s a sucker’s game to dream up opposition where true opposition doesn’t exist. Don’t fence with shadows, Mnemi: you’re all too likely to meet up with genuine opponents. Keep yourself in training for that day, and please let the shadow-quarrels slide; you’re draining yourself of energy you’ll need. Thanks for your time.
@Mnemni
OK. I tried to be nice (or nice enough). I’m about to go off, so I might not think everything thru. I’m not now, nor have I ever been, suicidal. Anyone who is or has, please give me the business if I fuck up
YOU ARE WRONG! It’s been explained to you that you are wrong, and in what ways you are wrong. Suicide is not something to idolize or make light of. It’s a serious issue, perhaps the most serious issue in a person’s life. Holding it up as a tactic in the gender wars is reprehensible, and doing so with an example involving a scared child is… I don’t believe in evil, but if such a thing exists… No matter how much someone throws around the word ‘badass’, neither suicide nor the ideation of it are cool. It’s not a joke or a clever idea. And fuck anyone who thinks that way
That is what’s meant. That’s the “pro life views” we profess. If you don’t share those views, perhaps this ain’t the blog for you to have this conversation. If that’s now been made clear to you, quit digging that hole you’re in. Thanks
@David,
I recognise the distinction between suicide as way to make others suffer and suicide performed for other reasons, but I don’t think you make the distinction sufficiently clear in the article.
If you don’t have an objection to suicide qua suicide then we have no quarrel.
Mnemni, everyone who’s studied suicide has concluded that it’s almost always an impulsive act. As EJ pointed out, the overwheming majority of those who attempt suicide (and fail) don’t attempt it again. People who’ve survived jumping off of bridges have told people that they regretted the act the second they let go of the bridge.
David,
Psychology isn’t a science, and I don’t know how much credence we should lend to those who claim to have studied suicide.
Do you have any idea how hard it is to work up the courage to make an attempt on your life, even once?
@Mnemni:
I won’t speak for David, as I don’t know whether he does or not, but I do. And I am really fucking grateful that I don’t have it, because if I had had that “courage” I wouldn’t be alive right now.
Don’t praise that kind of courage. YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.
Go fuck yourself.
@mnemni
I don’t even know what this means. I don’t think suicide is a sin. I don’t blame those on the upper floors of the world trade center who jumped to their deaths rather than be burned alive.
But in the vast majority of cases I am opposed to suicide. It is almost always the wrong thing to do, even if the person doing it thinks at the time that it makes sense. In the overwhelming majority of cases I would forcibly try to stop someone trying to commit suicide, even against their will, if I were in a position to do so. Because when these people can see the world clearly again, almost all of them want to live.
Obviously I would make exceptions for someone who had, for example, a terminal illness that brought them nothing but intolerable pain. But that’s not the issue for most who try to commit suicide.
Just feeling the need to point out here that psychology isn’t the only study of the mind. There’s also such a thing as psychiatry, and like many other medical specialties, it can be both an art and a science.
I’ll out myself here. I’m a suicide survivor. I’m glad I didn’t succeed.
I’m also a patient’s rights supporter who thinks DNR/DNI orders should be respected.
I’m also the friend of a woman whose (now ex) husband threatened to kill himself on a semi-regular basis as a means of controlling her, because sneaking drugs and poisons into what she ate and drank wasn’t enough for him.
Mnemni, I don’t think it’s fair for you to assume that everybody who has had an experience similar to yours (whatever that may be) is going to have the same reaction as you. Your most recent post seems to imply that anyone who has tried to kill themselves would agree with you. I have, and I don’t.
mnemni, I don’t know if you’re trolling or not but at this point you are banned.
@Mnemni
Okay, time to shut the fuck up now. You’ve single-handedly derailed this thread because of some personal mission which has fuck all to do with the post in question. You deliberately misread the post and spent many comments whining about things that nobody said.
I rule that you will shut the fuck up now, and behave better in the next thread.