If you haven’t already read Laurie Penny’s brilliant and unnerving account of her surreal evening as Milo Yiannopoulos’ guest at the Gays for Trump shindig he held in Cleveland earlier this week, stop whatever you’re doing and read it now. Then come back and discuss.
If you need more persuasion: It’s a sharp and scary analysis of “how trolls took the wheel of the clown car of modern politics,” as Penny puts it, and it’s full of weird details about the event and Penny’s strange non-relationship with Milo, whom she describes as “a charming devil and one of the worst people I know” and someone she simply can’t convince she’s not actually friends with.
Perhaps the oddest part of Penny’s piece, though, is her description of her encounter with a fellow we all know too well: Roosh Valizadeh, whom she describes all too accurately as a “headline-hunting nano-celebrity in the world of ritualised internet misogyny.”
“He asks me what I’m doing here,” Penny writes. “I ask him the same question.”
It’s a good question, given that Roosh is a raging homophobe who bans gays from commenting on his sites.
The interaction that follows is the most surreal episode in a deeply surreal evening. Roosh is tall and well-built and actually rather good-looking for, you know, a monster. I have opportunity to observe this because he puts himself right up in my personal space, blocking my view of the room with his T-shirt, and proceeds, messily and at length, to tell me what my problem is.
Number one: my haircut, and he’s telling me this as a man, makes my face look round. This is absolutely true. Number two: I seek to destroy the nuclear family, and disturb traditional relationships between men and women. This is also true, although I remind him that the nuclear family as it is currently conceived is actually a fairly recent social format. He insists that it’s thousands of years old, and asks me if I truly believe that it’s right for gay men to be able to adopt children. I tell him that I do. He appears as flummoxed by this as I do by his presence at what is supposed to be a party to celebrate Gay republicans. He’s here for the same reason I am: Milo invited him.
So, yeah.
For what it’s worth, I think Penny overstates Milo’s “weaponised insincerity.” He’s certainly a cynical enough opportunist, who jumped aboard GamerGate and then on the alt-right car of the Trump Train not because he gave a shit about any of the alleged issues involved but in order to promote himself. But he’s hardly the boy with the “fewest f*cks to give.” He actually gives a lot of f*cks, at least about himself. Like most narcissists, he’s acutely sensitive to slights and lashes out at anyone who pierces his vanity — much like his adopted “daddy” Trump.
But if you want to know how we got to this weird place we’re in now, Penny’s piece offers some invaluable insights.
The same shit is happening in Australia too. It’s truly worrying/sad/scary
@Luzbelitx
I’m so sorry. It’s hard to even contemplate the crimes you describe. What nightmares Argentina has been through.
Stay strong. We can’t let the people who hate everyone, especially themselves,* defeat us.
*Boo hoo. Start treating other people better and you’ll hate yourself less.
Laurie Penny is always a great read.
@dustwolves:
I’m not sure whether to be comforted and amused by this, or even more nauseated with him than I am already. At least it’s not a real Pride parade; that would be scary. The fact that this other “parade”, microscopic though it is, EXISTS, is certainly cause for…intense disgust. (I’m well past alarm, as I’ve been Cassandra-ing the dangers of right-wing terrorists since the 1990s. It takes wayyyyyy more than 20 gay Nazis to scare me.)
On the other hand, there is a very good chance that the crowd of hecklers will be much larger than the crowd of paraders. And that means that the lutefisk-pelting I envisioned the other day just might happen. Let us pray…
On to Laurie P.:
I admire her restraint. If that were me, I’d be shoving him arse-first into the punchbowl. But then again, I guess she had to get some words from the horse’s ass…
Having seen photos of her haircut (it’s very cute!), yeah, she does have a roundish face. But then, she would no matter what her hair looked like. It’s not a flaw. It’s just a trait, Roosh — get over it! (And really: “as a man”? I wouldn’t care if he said it as a sheep or as a sack of flaming dog excrement. If a woman wants a man’s opinion of her ‘do, she’ll ask. Basic good manners dictate that you don’t offer it unsolicited, Roosh, you fucking boor.)
The nuclear family IS a social construct (and as such, can be detonated, to paraphrase the old radical saying). Early humans typically lived in extended family groups, not nuclear ones. They were more akin to villages than to the single-family households of today. Having ties beyond those of immediate blood kinship among your circle made for greater solidarity, more protection against enemies, and thus, a better chance of survival. (It also helped to prevent inbreeding, something a lot of nuke-fam proponents would rather we didn’t even discuss.)
Also: My best friend is a gay man, happily married to another man, and an adoptive father to two sons. They’re a family just as much as any other. Laurie is right. And Roosh can go fall naked into a pineapple patch.
And to think they say WOMEN are the ones with rationalization hamsters. Laurie, you picked the perfect phrase to skewer them with!
POM, alan, Whoever else is concerned about Trump.
This piece on the Australian ABC site shows an encouraging precedent. 1964 … Goldwater. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-22/wolpe-republicans-in-cleveland:-we-have-seen-this-play-before/7652274?section=analysis
@bina
Apparently there was a peaceful counterdemonstration (or rather “hanging out in the park nearby with rainbow flags, dancing and ignoring the nazis”) that vastly outnumbered the parade itself. No lutfisk pelting as far as I know. 🙂 But the fact that they’re making another attempt this year makes me uneasy. Seeing mr Yiannopoulos pop up in my regular newsfeed like that (with the organizers referring to him as “international gay icon”) was a weird The Internet Is Leaking moment.
(Finally got around to actually reading the article. And I was in such a good mood today…)
@ mildlymagnificent
That was an excellent read. The downside to this historical analogy: Nixon won the ’68 and ’72 elections. And Nixon was, arguably, a more palatable version of Goldwater’s ideals. Trump may lose, though maybe not as much as Goldwater to Johnson. But I think people are rightly concerned about the downstream effects of Trumpism and if it’ll stick the way Goldwater’s Southern Strategy has.
Blegh. Please excuse the tense confusion in those sentences.
You know what really worries me though? (And this to the thread, not just you mildly magnificent.) People thinking they should stay home rather than vote. One woman at work was discussing this with some of our peers the other day. Her concern is that, since we live in a red state, there’s no point in voting. Trump will win the state anyway. She was worried that her voice wouldn’t matter.
I get the sentiment. It sucks to feel like you can’t be represented because a single party has a monopoly on your area’s political offices. But, I said, the popular vote for president does still matter. Plus, there are other candidates if you simply cannot vote for Clinton let alone Trump.
I forgot to mention, but should’ve, that there’s more than the presidency at stake. The House for every Congressional district and the Senate for some districts. Then there are state and local elections, as well as policies, to vote on. There are other Democrats besides Clinton running for a political office this year!
But at least she has worries that make sense. It’s hard to believe your vote matters when you know how your state’s electors will inevitably go. The Greens don’t even have people who run for local and state elections in my city and political districts. Just the Federal ones. Sometimes even the Democrats don’t run an opposition candidate in local and state elections here. I get that there might be good reasons for this, but it does leave some voters, like my co-worker, feeling disenfranchised.
What I hate are the people who want to treat the Presidential election as the only one that matters. The ones who say that they can vote neither Clinton nor Trump, so they’ll “stay home”. As if mass movements and political change can only be achieved through the Executive branch. I hate that meme you see shared around social media, which goes, “if voting every 4 years changed anything, they’d outlaw it”. First of all, it’s anti-democracy. Secondly, it assumes that we don’t also have elections every two years. As if our locally and state elected representatives don’t have as much, if not greater, an impact on our daily lives than the Federal ones. And it assumes that the Presidency is the only thing on the ballot every 4 years that matters.
Just as a fyi, Ballotpedia is an excellent resource on all state and national elections.
Apologies for the tangent.
Well, I plan to stay home on election day, but I live in a vote by mail state. It’s ludicrous that that isn’t the national standard, IMO.
“Nihilists! Fuck me. I mean, say what you want about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it’s an ethos.”
Lol’ing at Roosch negging her. These guys have the same playbook and they use it over and over again. I expect more out of red-pillers trying to change the system. They need to mix it up a bit and surprise every now and then with some new material.
I’ve noticed a fair amount of Rooshlike people have this notion that pointing out a trait in a person is somehow an insult. ”Your boobs are small!”’. Yes, I’ve noticed. And?
@frenchfriedtaters
“Why fix what ain’t broke?”
Wait, no. Let me rephrase that:
“Why fix something that never worked in the first place?”
Still not right. I’m going to give it one more go:
“Why fix something that never worked in the first place? After all, if I admit that I made one mistake, it would open up the possible that I am wrong about other things as well. Soon, I might realize that I am wrong about my entire worldview. No, it must work. I can’t be wrong! Think of what I have done with my life up to this point. Who I have hurt… NO! It all works! I’m right! I have to be! I can’t be a monster! I can’t be a monster. I can’t…”
Yep, got it that time.
@Argle Bargle: My favorite thing is when people go “You’re fat!”
I have three responses to this:
1. Ask the person to elaborate.
“Yeah. And?”
Anyone who points something like this out about you hasn’t thought about two things: a Step 2, or attention from you directly.
They expected Step 1 to hurt you and leave you in tears, so Step 2 is a huge blank, and most of these people aren’t creative enough to improvise.
And once you put them on the spot, they have to say something to you. Feel free to stop, stare, and wait for a stuttered response.
If they do manage to respond, default to The Toddler Method of repeatedly asking questions (and doing the adult thing and adding facts) until Captain Obvious gets frustrated and walks away. For example:
“Hey, Fatty!”
[Turn to look at the person making the comment] “Hey. So, why do you feel the need to point that out?”
“Well, because you’re fat!”
“And?”
“Th…that’s not healthy.”
“Not really, everyone’s body carries weight differently. There are Olympians who weigh over three hundred pounds. So, what’s your point?”
“But, you’re not an Olympian!”
“And you’re not a doctor, let alone my personal doctor who knows my medical history. So you can’t tell me, especially at a glance, that I’m ‘unhealthy’. So, why point it out?”
“Because you’re fat!”
“Yes, we’ve been over this, but why? Did you think I didn’t know that already?”
Etc.
2. Feign (dramatic) unawareness.
“What?! How can this be?! I didn’t wake up like this! [grab your fat rolls] Where did this come from?! [If you’re with a friend, grab them by the shoulders and give them a little shake] Why didn’t you tell me?! [Fall to your knees] KHAAAANNNNNNN (Or a more preferred exclamation)!”
This works best in a public place, where you can make a bit of a scene. The person will usually skulk away, embarrassed that they were the cause of such a scene.
2. Own it, point out it’s obvious, and compliment yourself in the process.
“No shit, dude. I own a mirror. I wouldn’t look this amazing if I didn’t.”
“No duh. My makeup wouldn’t be this flawless if I didn’t own a mirror.”
“Wow, thanks Captain Obvious! I do own a mirror, and yes, I do look cute today!”
The part of Penny’s article that really caught my attention was her description of debate within British media:
Speaking as someone from the States, the attitude she describes does actually occur here – although approached a bit differently.
There’s a lot of people (usually white, cis-het males) who treat politics less like it has anything to do with principle or conviction than they do “just an opinion” that’s no different from preferring chocolate to vanilla or the color green over red. Debating over immigration has less to do with treating those immigrants like people and the ramifications that come with it are treated as wholly theoretical and dismissive treatment of that group is simply “rational.” Getting upset and voicing displeasure over such is something of a faux-pas, since these same conversations are supposedly about being “civil” – even though the opinions expressed can be the least civil things ever stated.
I tolerated that crap for a long time and can’t anymore. It’s disgusting to treat a subject that involves policy and how it effects real people as something done for shits and giggles, that you can just forget about over beers and a movie. It’s why I’ve gotten sick of people demanding a “civil” conversation wherein human beings are treated with less importance than making some asshole feel validated in his opinion.
In this day and age, separating one’s politics from their character is simply compartmentalization. Someone can claim that their rejection of gay marriage has nothing to do with homophobia and how sad it makes them feel, but too fucking bad when it’s called that – because it is homophobic and it should be called out. They aren’t asking for empathy as much as trying to escape responsibility and act as if they should be immune to criticism. At the same time, they have no problem casting a ton of disproportionately unfair judgment on others (who are usually disadvantaged) atop their little ivory tower and do not see the hypocrisy in this.
Just like with what Laurie Penny describes, it’s a form of discourse that’s done for the comfort and pleasure of those who are incredibly privileged. They partake in these debates not because they care – but because it’s a game for intellectual posturing.
@frenchfried taters
I used to work in an office in which the person who sat by the door to the hallway and the break room would comment every time she saw me head to the break room with my cup.
“More tea?” she’d say.
I wouldn’t have minded if she didn’t say it every time. She was negging me!
I was stumped. I wanted to keep my (freelance) gig, so I certainly didn’t want to confront her or hurt her feelings. I mulled it over for a while until I had the perfect response. Then I waited for the perfect moment.
It came at an office party. Everyone was having a good time, including me.
She said it again: “More tea?”
With a big smile I said, “You need to get a new line.”
She never spoke to me again.
And really, that was OK.
@NickNameNick
I’ve noticed that some people aren’t so much interested in discourse as they are in just dropping a poisonous comment into a conversation. Judging by the smugness of their expression, I conclude that these individuals think that voicing their “opinion” — no matter how lightly held, idiotic, or nasty — makes them powerful.
It is of course true that words can hurt.
Deflector shields up!
@Kat
http://media.tumblr.com/dc87a31d5b6b2d5d6fe6d653ac5082b0/tumblr_inline_mstscroWuA1qz4rgp.gif
If Roosh showed up where I didn’t expect him to be, I probably would’ve punched him.
Also, I loved the rhinestone hamster wheel metaphor!
I don’t have anything if substance to say except this is just another thing that leaves me bewildered at the state of my country.
@ Dalillama
Oh, that’s fair. My point is directed towards those “staying home” with the explicit motive of refusing to vote whatsoever, even by mail or during early voting.
@ NickNameNick
Glad to see you’re still around.
As another Yankee, I agree with your and Penny’s observations too. Debate is largely about winning. Granted, everyone wants to win an argument they’re involved in. But for what you and Penny are talking about, it means getting one over your opposition with any and all possible tools. It’s feeling good for winning the game that matters, not the implications for policy or people. And you’re supposed to never take anything said personally, no matter how personal someone’s comment is. This isn’t just the manosphere. I’ve seen this in college among male intellectuals, too.
I will say that this gets complicated when the relationship between two people is familial.
For example, a friend of mine came out as queer over a year ago. Her father is a good ol’ Southern Baptist. She tells me that they love each other and get along well these days. But while her mother embraced her coming out, her father cried because “she’ll never get to Heaven with him”. She explained that she isn’t religious like he is, so she doesn’t worry about that. It doesn’t reassure him, naturally, but her lack of belief aides her power to accept who she is regardless.
He’s come around since then, after a fashion. They’ve been able to converse regularly without anger. Eventually he told her that he cannot choose to not love his own daughter, even though he believes he has to “pray for her” all the time. She said it was fine, so long as he continues to love, care, and support her like her mother does. And she believes he has. It’s a little bit of a, but definitely not a full, “I love my dead gay son” thing. Although she’s not dead and he hasn’t fully reversed his beliefs so much as reconcile the cognitive dissonance.
It’s about the best compromise one can get with someone who’s conservative and religious, I suppose. Especially given the many horror stories of LGBTQIA people getting kicked out of their families for good. Some end up homeless and jobless.
Doesn’t make the reaction any less homophobic, of course. Among many other things, it does show how homophobic discourse is easy until you have a personal stake in it. Until you realize that it can affect people you actually care about with what you say and think.
It’s also what makes people like Milo so disgusting. They know how it can hurt others. They just don’t care.
@kat oh yeah, the good ole ignore them does work occasionally or just agree with them. They want an emotional reaction or want the banter that follows. Never ever follow it up with a discussion. Don’t give them that satisfaction of banter its exactly what they want to do.
@Kat:
It’s probably due to how degraded the nature of discourse has become overall, more than anything else. A lot of online conversations these days feel less like people talking with one another than at one another. They assume the other person should just listen and shut up, never to comment directly on their statement but become petulant when it does happen. I mean, I’ve had people get mad at me for quoting them and then explaining the problem I had with the statement – as if I said something horrible about their mother.
Part of the problem, I think, is the notion in the U.S. that having an opinion – any opinion – is sacrosanct. That to fault someone’s opinion is somehow indicative of being intolerant of other opinions. Obviously it isn’t, when the statement made is afactual or bigoted or any number of things that should be criticized and discussed.
Another person I dealt with, when it came to the issue of using blackface, acted as if his dismissal of it as an issue as an opinion made it legitimate in of itself. I’d actually explain why it was a problem due to its history and how it effected people of color, several times over, but he’d continue on with how he was “just” speaking his opinion – that blackface shouldn’t be an issue because the film White Chicks exists as well as some Dave Chappelle sketches as they feature black actors wearing make-up to appear white. Nevermind those are two fucking examples of such whereas blackface has been far more prevalent in the past and even present.
I got sick of having to explain it to him, using his “it’s just my opinion” retort again and again, and told him to fuck off. There was no point in discussing it with him because he didn’t want a discussion – he just wanted to express his views and be validated, which I refuse to do.
@Kat:
What a handy response. I’m going to file that in case I ever need it…
@Tragedy of Commas:
Thanks.
It’s been a pretty depressing couple of months, due to financial troubles as well as current events, and I’m only starting to feel a bit better now. I wish it was August already and things started to pick up a bit, because I haven’t been getting called into work enough and am seeking a second job now (which might just become my new job – I need to work more hours, which I’m not getting these days).
They’re particularly intolerable because they erroneously conflate their disconnection with objectivity, even though no one is really capable of such. Of course they’ll keep saying “objectivity” to convince themselves that isn’t the case but, as I’ve learned, verbally proclaiming something over and over again doesn’t make it true.
Very true. I suppose I’m still bitter about what happened to a friend of mine who came out and got a ton of shit for it, from none other than a former mentor and a bunch of his friends.
They’d continually say homophobic shit and, when told that, would act aghast anyone would think of them that way…only to continue talking about how much being gay was a “dangerous lifestyle” without any irony. My friend broke ties with him and I did the same because it was so heinous to do to someone who just came out and was looking for support.
My friend wasn’t expecting it and it came as a shock to him – though, honestly, it should’ve been expected. The guy expressed views before about how he thought being gay was a choice and regularly denied any evidence to the contrary, saying they weren’t “true facts” (i.e. didn’t confirm his bias). It’s also telling that he thinks climate change is all a hoax, right down to all that research done by scientists.
Besides that: God, I absolutely love Heathers.
Heathers is one of my favorite movies!
That gif seems highly appropriate for this election cycle.
This one sums up the GOP pretty well
http://66.media.tumblr.com/0a942a546d57aa677062566c38bea830/tumblr_mykyp7VJ5a1tnz8rlo1_500.gif
This one I just like
http://24.media.tumblr.com/4cf53d208fdbe5fa2362c7f660d75b24/tumblr_mqby78ohAY1s5746vo2_500.gif
I used to think Mean Girls was awesome, until I watched Heathers and realized it was nowhere near as brilliant.