Is the hashtag #FightForWesternCivilization the worst thing on Twitter today?

@Mike
“Feelings” in scare quotes… c’mon, bruh…

@Joekster
The problem isn’t that you’re not wanted (you should watch your passive aggression, BTW. Not a good look). The problem is that PI told you what the problem was, and you side stepped it with ‘but sahyuns’. We don’t assume that homophobes are gay. Period. It’s not true, it’s not helpful, and it hurts people. Don’t. If you plan on stick around, and I’m more than OK with you doing so, try not to rationalize away people’s concerns. And that was a weak ass ‘apology’ at the end.

@Matchstick

Is full-on holocaust denial considered an adequate justification for removal of posting privileges on here?

Fuckin should be

@Mike
Now, I could do a long bit of research for a holocaust denier, but

Brätigam, Otto, Memorandum dated 18 Dec. 1941, “Jewish Question re correspondence of 15 Nov. 1941” translated and reprinted in Office of the United States Chief of Counsel For Prosecution of Axis Criminality, Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, Exhibit 3666-PS, Volume VII, pages 978-995, USGPO, Washington DC 1946 (“Red Series”)
Jeckeln, Friedrich, excerpts from minutes of interrogation, 14 December 1945 (Maj. Zwetajew, interrogator, Sgt. Suur, interpreter), pages 8–13, from the Historical State Archives, as reprinted in Fleming, Hitler and the Final Solution, at pages 95–100 (Portions of the Jeckeln interrogation are also available online at at the Nizkor website).
Stahlecker, Franz W., “Comprehensive Report of Einsatzgruppe A Operations up to 15 October 1941”, Exhibit L-180, translated in part and reprinted in Office of the United States Chief of Counsel For Prosecution of Axis Criminality, Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, Volume VII, pages 978-995, USGPO, Washington DC 1946 (“Red Series”)
“The International Military Tribunal for Germany”. Yale Law School / Lillian Goldman Law Library / The Avalon Project.
Trials of War Criminals before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals under Control Council Law No. 10, Nuernberg, October 1946 – April 1949, Volume IV, (“Green Series) (the “Einsatzgruppen case”) also available at Mazel library (well indexed HTML version)

has done that for me, and since you have preferred to spam walls of text instead of responding to posters, while also not backing up your claims, I have no reason to see your word over the words of the people there.

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007273

I particularly like this quote

In order to hide the killing operation as much as possible from the uninitiated, Hitler ordered that the killings not be spoken of directly in German documentation or in public statements. Instead, the Germans used codenames and neutral-sounding terms for the killing process. In Nazi parlance, for example, “action” (Aktion) referred to a violent operation against Jewish (or other) civilians by German security forces; “resettlement to the East” (Umsiedlung nach dem Osten) referred to the forced deportation of Jewish civilians to killing centers in German-occupied Poland; and “special treatment” (Sonderbehandlung) meant killing.

Both at the time and later, such euphemisms impeded a clear understanding of what the Nazis were doing. This was partly to facilitate the killing process by keeping the victims in the dark about their fate as long as possible. Widespread Jewish resistance was only possible once Jews understood that Nazi policy was to kill all of them. Furthermore, Hitler could not just assume that almost no one would protest the killing of Jews. Even within his own party there were those who agreed with the campaign of persecution against Jews but who occasionally balked at systematic murder. For example, Wilhelm Kube, the German civilian administrator of occupied Belarus, fully supported the murder of the Belarusian Jews, but protested when the SS deported German Jews to Minsk and shot them there.

Now, if you are actually willing to respond to the posters who did pretty much address everything you said and found a load of garbage, maybe you can make things more entertaining.

@Mike:

But all of the good that occured in germany between the wars is conveniently overlooked or rarely gets mentioned. But had they not been pressured into WW2 who knows what they might have achieved considering they were decades ahead of all other western countries for the time on practically every social level there was

STOP. RIGHT. THERE.

I am German. My dad was born the year Hitler came to power. And HIS dad was dragged in front of the Gestapo and threatened with death, even for his four children, and his wife who’d been awarded a Mother’s Cross for having that many…not for being a Jew, or even for fraternizing with them, but for complaining that since “that shitty Austrian” came to power in Germany, you couldn’t get decent shoes there anymore. Just for a tiny thing like that, they’d have killed him if he didn’t shut up and duck his head and let them run the country into the ground…which, of course, they ultimately did. Toward the end of the war, they were forcing boys as young as 12 into the army.

And that’s not even taking into account my OTHER grandfather, who was conscripted into the SS. He was classically apolitical, but as a “foreign German” from Yugoslavia, that meant he was over a barrel once the Russians invaded in ’44. Which they probably would never have done, had it not been for Nazism. My mom lost her baby sister when they had to flee, and as refugees in Germany — never mind that they were ethnic Germans! — they were still treated worse than shit.

You can fuck right off out of here with your “good things” Hitler apologism. I have no use for any of it. Germans generally don’t.

Is it still here?

Back to hot dogs: I once saw a recipe in a surprisingly ordinary magazine like Women’s Day or such like where they suggested topping the dog with peanut butter. Sounds bizarre at best, though perhaps a Thai peanut sauce might be tasty– use a good dog, though, none of that weaksauce Oscar Mayer stuff.

Haha yes please erase the сссп and your beloved Putin along with it !-_-

@Axecalibur
It was Joe^3 that made the “homophobes are closet gays” comment, not Joekster. I think there has been an identity mix up somewhere, so Joekster, don’t feel bad.

Nequam skrev:

I once saw a recipe in a surprisingly ordinary magazine like Women’s Day or such like where they suggested topping the dog with peanut butter. Sounds bizarre at best

No more bizarre than a PB&J bacon burger, and those turn out to be quite tasty, at least to my tongue.

Is anyone having trouble with the comment section, software wise I mean. The posts on my side aren’t in chronological order, well they are until the last post of mike’s wall screed, that post is an hour ago from the later posts.

Alt-right logic.

The Holocaust = Maybe some people died. Not a big deal.

Black guy has white girlfriend = WHITE GENOCIDE HALP HALP WE’RE BEING GENOCIDED CLOSE THE BORDERS AND KILL EVERYONE

@Ooglyboggles

It’s acting funky on my end too. Thought it was just me.

I don’t have time to go through and carefully refute, with evidence, all of Mike’s distorted views — but it seems like other folks have done a fine job. I was amused at the suggestion that Mike go get a Ph.D. and start making his claims in the scholarly literature. (Indeed, the historiography in that field is quite complex!)

In any event, I in fact do have a Ph.D., specialize in military history, have taught at the undergraduate and graduate levels in several universities including two well-established military academies (on a service school and one a senior military college; those who know what they’re talking about will know the significance of the second term). Although I am not a World War II specialist, I have taught it.

I think the evidence if fairly clear that the some elements of the Axis *portrayed themselves* as fighting “for Western civilization”, against a supposed enemy that consisted according to them, at its core, of what they believed was combination of Jewish and leftist interests.

And those elements of the Axis who believed that included not just Germans, but various right-wing constituencies in other European countries that the Germans had either conquered or turned into client-states or satellites. I say “right-wing constituencies” because not all were actually fascist; one can point to Vichy, for example, whose lead ideologues included both fascist and other flavors of conservatives (whose anti-semitism united them to some extent with the fascist elements). Moreover, many of the tens of thousands of men from Western European countries who fought with the Axis against the USSR in various SS units or other pro-Axis military units drawn from those countries sometimes claimed they were fighting the Soviets alongside the Nazis on behalf of “western civilization”. One could point to Leon Degrelle and his self-image. There’s a lot of evidence that reveals that self-image to be a fiction that those people made up tough. For one thing, NO pro-Axis government or party in any occupied European country was viewed as legitimate by the majority of its population. The only exception is the Vichy regime, and Vichy lost its legitimacy with the majority of the population as the war progressed and as its leaders became more pro-Axis. It’s hard to call Vichy “pro-Axis” so much as neutral anyway. (If you know the historiography of that field, by the way, I’m relying largely on Robert O. Paxton’s work. I know there’s newer stuff, so jump in and correct me or modify if you’re familiar with the scholarship.)

Fascist wannabes today luuuuuuv to get all in a dither about units like the SS Wiking Division, etc. But, to give another example, the fact remains that many more Norwegians actually FOUGHT THE AXIS than served in the SS Wiking Division or other pro-Axis units drawn from Scandanavian peoples.

At the end of the day, it was the peoples and governments of the national groups that make up “Western Civilization” who, along with their allies (….ahem…) 🙂 like *the peoples of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics* and many, many others, who stopped the Nazis.

(And, hey, a lot of non-western people whose countries were subjected to colonial rule *by western states* ALSO bore arms against the Axis).

Lots of racists love to talk about how diversity weakens blah blah blah. If they love their f***ing fascists so much, they ought to look at the Italian campaign in World War II.

Take a look at the ethnic composition of the Allied forces in Italy (the U.S. Fifth Army and British Eighth Army). In fighting them, the Germans faced armies that included Britons, white New Zealanders, Maori New Zealanders, Catholic Poles, Jewish Poles, Palestinian Jews, Arabs of the Maghreb, Frenchmen, anti-fascist Italians, Greeks, several different West African ethnic groups, African-Americans, Brazilians (who are waaaay diverse in and of themselves) and lots of others I’m forgetting.

Oh, and against them the Fascists LOST.

Its also interesting that one of the most outspoken groups of people claiming the holocaust never happened are in fact muslims.

I didn’t know that was in the Quran.

EDIT: Oh, thank god, Mike’s comment is traveling down and shit. Maybe if we comment enough, it’ll be pushed off the internet forever. /sarcasm

@ pavlov’s house

I have two bits of Spitfire trivia that I like to drop into conversations.

The first one is that most Spitfires were pink.

The second is that a Spitfire pilot was more likely to have a Punjabi accent than an English public school one.

That’s partly because, contrary to how films portray things, most RAF pilots were from working class backgrounds, but also because there were large numbers of Indian pilots. Some of whom flew in England but it’s also worth remembering that the war was fought on many fronts and Indian service personnel played a big part in that.

(Related: the BNP commishioned a poster to show how they ‘defended’ British workers and how they would stop Polish people coming over and stealing our jobs. It was to feature a Spitifire, that being a quintessential icon of British defence. Unfortunately for them, it transpired that the spitfire on the picture was from a squadron of Polish pilots. The graphic designer swore it was an ‘accident’. 😉 )