An open thread to discuss the shootings in Dallas. What’s been reported so far: 5 officers were killed and 6 others wounded when multiple shooters opened fire on police at a BlackLivesMatter protest in Dallas. Three suspects are in custody; a fourth reportedly killed himself during a standoff with police. The police say he was spouting apocalyptic rhetoric and claimed more police deaths were to come.
More details here.
Whoever the shooters are, whatever  justifications they’ve cooked up, this is a massacre, an act of terrorism. Abusive cops need to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. But vigilante “justice” isn’t justice. These officers did not deserve this. Not only that, but the shootings will make it harder to fight the police abuses that have left so many innocent black men (and black boys, and black women) dead.
No trolls, no MRAs allowed in this thread. Anyone who justifies the shootings in any way, whether they’re sincere or a troll, will be banned and their comments will be deleted. Please email me to let me know if you see any inappropriate comments.
@dodom – if you bring a gun to a peaceful protest, it’s no longer a peaceful protest.
You put the lives of EVERYONE around you in danger. It sickens me when I see white guys bringing guns to support causes I find abhorrent and it saddens and angers me when anyone brings a gun to cause I do.
I get the point that’s being made. But I’d have preferred that none of them had guns.
Sandy Hook: “Don’t politicize this!”
Pulse: “Don’t politicize this!”
Dallas: “Obama and Black Lives Matter have blood on their hands!”
So I guess it’s okay now to talk about how badly the Second Amendment has broken your country.
I don’t know what to make of this, but I think Frank Zappa had the situation pegged, even 50 years ago:
https://youtu.be/Dtk2gozGtbg
The film footage the YouTuber set this to is of the Watts “race riots” in LA. Disheartening how little has changed…and conversely, how much still NEEDS to change.
I just can’t.
I’ll be off in the woods without internet or phone access as of tomorrow. Hopefully when I come back cooler heads will prevail. But given that it will be August, I doubt it.
@EJ (TOO):
Not that I want to instigate anything because I know these are sensitive subjects, but regardless of your opinions on the police force in America nobody deserves to get shot just for existing.
The way to fix the problems that the police generally have isn’t by killing them.
EDIT: It’s cool if you want to just ignore this, since I’m sure you’ve seen this sort of conversation play out plenty of times in your time on this website, and it might be better for everyone if it doesn’t derail into arguments.
man, this year :c.
I’m from Chile btw, but I’m kinda obssesed with your culture, I can’t stop, please help me XD.
But this is really sad, you guys if you want to emigrate to my country you are welcome :S.
It’s always darkest before the dawn, they say. Until the sun rises, how will we know?
@dslucia:
You’re absolutely right. Even if I wasn’t a pacifist, I would agree that nobody deserves to be shot for just existing, or for a matter of their identity.
Argh. Moral complexity. I’ll write it up fully when I’ve thought it through and put it somewhere offsite. I don’t want to derail in a time when it’s important to be supportive.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SMnSIADXrNg/VHc8DMaReCI/AAAAAAAABWA/OzO8NcuOpVY/w800-h800/fluffy_confused_kitten_gif_1_by_wonderfuday-d51jtzc.gif
@rugby
“dodom – if you bring a gun to a peaceful protest, it’s no longer a peaceful protest.”
I agree, which is why I absolutely hate open carry laws. (Concealed carry is better). Keeping a gun displayed on your person is an implicit threat.
However, we live in a country where its a-ok for white guys to prance around showing off their guns and you’re an asshole if you find that threatening, or off, or whatever, because white guys are the sheepdog protectors and how dare you assume otherwise.
When black men open carry it blows that whole fantasy out of the water. I’m not underestimating the justification power of racism, but the fear of blacks open carrying still makes the “benovelont sheepdog” myth a tougher sell. If the sight of a black man with a gun on his hip is a “threat”, then what are white men who open carry? Is the sight of a gun a threat, or not?
Five dead police officers. It’s a very sad situation in Dallas. Not only that, it gives the right wing so much ammunition. That said, the right wing had plenty of ammunition against gay people when the AIDS epidemic came along. Luckily, cooler, more reasonable heads prevailed. I hope that’s also true for the situation in Dallas.
****
@EJ (The Other One)
A kitten is just what this thread needed. Thanks!
Thank you for Very Important Kitten.
So sources say the police bombed the suspect that was holed up in a building by using a robot to deliver an explosive to his location. Can anyone confirm this?
Not to dogpile, but yeah, agree with dslucia.
I understand rage and tribalism and pain, but that’s different than condoning it.
Accountability can’t be achieved through terrorism. Murdering people adjacent to the problem doesn’t solve the problem.
Even beyond morals, tactically this is terrible, because it just gives those who ARE part of the problem justification, and drives people who are already resistant to the message of #BlackLivesMatter into the arms of #BlueLivesMatter.
It doesn’t even matter if the shooters were adjacent to #BlackLivesMatter or not: they’ll be used against them.
@JSun
That is what CNN is reporting. They used a remote bomb detonation robot to blow him up.
“We saw no other option but to use our bomb robot and place a device on its extension for it to detonate where the suspect was,” Brown said. “Other options would have exposed our officers to grave danger. The suspect is deceased as a result of detonating the bomb.” – Chief David Brown
So it seems the police released the identity of the suspect they killed. The man was apparenlty a black man who was upset over police brutality and claimed he would end all white cops before he died.
@ Jsun & pitshade
Just been discussing this with some friends. The bomb disposal robot that Dallas police use can be fitted with an explosive charge. Normally that’s used for controlled explosions when they are dealing with suspect devices.
It seems in this case they sent the robot in and detonated the charge as close as they could to the shooter. It’s still not clear whether this was expected to injure him or whether it was a prelude to the SWAT team moving in (which actions are normally preceded by the use of flashbangs)
Apparently Dallas police used a robot last year in a similar way with someone holed up in an armoured van but without detonating the charge that time (they just used to camera to get a bead on him).
This seems to be the first time the police have ever used a robot this way but there’s at least one example of the military doing this with a sniper.
I will definitely agree with those above who state that open carry laws are stupid. They are. Carrying a gun in public is almost always a threat. It escalates situations AND puts a huge target on your back. I hate that this happened in my home town, and I am terrified of what it will be used to justify.
Interesting, and very apropos…
Originally published 12/2015
Training to reduce ‘cop macho’ and ‘contempt of cop’ could reduce police violence | The Conversation http://j.mp/29o3TYf
The man chose one of the more peaceful protest involving police since BLM started to do this, when everyone was heading home.
I woke up too early in the morning for this shit.
Well, fuck. As leftwingfox points out, this really doesn’t help the public discussion move forward.
@ Kat:
This is my fear as well. Not only is this whole situation an utter tragedy, it’s the right’s worst nightmare come to life, and it might cause undecided voters to flock to Trump because they think he can keep them safe. If he (or anyone like him) ever gets that power, it could be the beginning of fascism in America. I’m less confident about the future than I’ve been for a long time…
@Alan
It’s hard for me to imagine the use of an explosive device as anything other than a lethal attack – since it doesn’t seem to have been used as a breaching method. The chief says it was set off ‘where the suspect was’ which tends to.suggest that the intent was to take out the individual. It seems a bit baroque at best and reckless at worst to use a bomb like that – I haven’t watched the videos but it seems this is an urban area? I can’t help but think of the MOVE debacle in 80s Philadelphia, IIRC.
And now I actually have to deal with racists who ask if a race war started.
I need two freakin’ drink.
I am disheartened. Not a crier, but crying.
Love and hugs to all who need them. Me included.
@ pitshade
Yeah, the fact that (as far as we know) there wasn’t an immediate breach by a SWAT team would seem to indicate they were intending for the explosive to act as a weapon. Someone sent me the spec sheet on the robot used and (assuming they didn’t improvise anything) there are no ‘distraction/disorientation’ device options. It’s all breaching and detonation things.