Today is the LAST DAY of the quarterly WHTM Pledge Drive! WHTM depends on donations to survive! If you appreciate the blog and haven’t donated yet, please click the button below. Thanks!
Is Return of Kings seriously suggesting that the best way to improve the lives of men today is to send a big chunk of them to die violent deaths in unnecessary wars?
It sure looks like it. In a post with the typically Return-of-Kingsy clickbait title “8 Factors That Are Destroying Healthy Relationships Between Men And Women,” regular RoK contributor Corey Savage seems to argue that the only way to restore the proper, er, balance between men and their naturally subordinate female companions is to kill off a lot of men.
Because we have “too few wars [and] too many men,” Savage declares, men have to work harder to impress women than they would if women dramatically outnumbered men. This “[e]xcess of men,” he complains. “means that the collective value of average men has dropped to a historical low.”
So, crank up that war machine, I guess!
How, you may wonder, did Savage manage to arrive at this, let call it provocative, conclusion?
As Savage sees it, the “continuing transformation of our society” has led “something [to go] awry with the relationship between men and women.”
In the good old days, Savage argues, men and women had a wonderfully symbiotic relationship — much like we humans have with horses.
No, really. Horses.
All relationships work best when two parties have something different to share for their mutual benefit. For example, humans and horses have enjoyed a close relationship together throughout history (unlike, say, humans and bears). The relationship works because in exchange for food, protection, and care that humans provide, the horses offer themselves as transportation.
Men and women used to have a similarly healthy partnership. Men provided women with food and shelter and the women, er, let the men ride them, as it were.
The relationship between men and women was also mutually beneficial for the entirety of human existence with men offering their services in exchange for having the women bear their children.
But no longer! Gone are the days when men hunted the mammoth and did all those other nice things for their once-grateful womenfolk.
Men have always provided for women. Men hunted for food, labored to build everything, and fought battles to defend their tribe. To say that men oppressed women throughout history is an insult to all those who sacrificed themselves in the factories, the coal mines, and the trenches. If women didn’t have certain rights that feminists like to cherry-pick, it’s because women weren’t drafted to fight wars. In exchange for their toil, the only thing men asked of women was to be supportive in their roles as wives and mothers.
Then “equality” came around and ruined things by allowing women a choice in the matter.
[F]ast-forward to today, now that women have “achieved” social and political “equality” and even various advantages just for being born a female, many women today no longer feel that it’s necessary to exchange values with men for mutuality. It’s like when humans developed automobiles and didn’t need horses anymore.
Well, no, If we go back to Savage’s original horse metaphor, it’s as though the horses got jobs and could pay their own bills without having to give people any rides.
And this is deeply unfair to all the men who would really like to keep riding the women. “[M]en’s sexual desire—which is greater than that of females—is still alive and kicking,” Savage complains.
So what we have today is a situation where women have gotten their social equality while sexual inequality persists for men … .
Yep. Men and their long-suffering boners are oppressed by the fact that women can say no to sex without starving to death.
Western women, in particular, have been so thoroughly sold on the idea of status and consumerist orgy that they are no longer interested in relationships. More and more women today are delaying marriage (if not outright rejecting it). And when they do get married, they are using it as a means to trap men into donating their sperm and cash, only to bail out when they want to.
Meanwhile, Savage complains, these evil ladies have all become sluts, despite not being interested in sex with men, thus “diminishing the availability of quality women that men want to start a family with.”
And did we mention Big Daddy government? In the happier days of yore, Savage reminds us,
men form[ed] relationships with women by exchanging values, with his strength to provide and protect being his greatest asset.
But now women can just suckle from the teat of, er, Big Daddy government.
[T]he government (along with corporations and education system) fulfills those roles that men previously occupied.
And even when the men of today manage to cajole one of these modern females into marriage, these ungrateful ladies will falsely accuse them of domestic violence to get them out of the way, leading Big Daddy government to send along teams of “professional white-knights” — otherwise known as police officers — “to extort and arrest men who’ve been used up and thrown away by women.”
It’s just terrible, Savage complains, that “the government is increasingly monopolizing violence, one of the most important value that a man possesses.”
Is he actually complaining that men don’t get to beat up their wives and girlfriends any more? Savage is such a bad writer that it’s impossible to tell.
But let’s set aside this question for a moment, because it’s at this point that Savage gets to the whole kill-dudes-to-make-life-better-for-dudes argument.
Back in the days when men were men and women were horses, Savage tells us, the world was a much more violent place. And that was apparently a very good thing: “[T]he more violent the environment is, the more masculine men become,” Savage writes.
And the more conflicts and wars there are, the more the women depend on men—thus keeping the collective value of [the] male population high.
Alas, those happily violent days are gone now.
It’s no coincidence that Western societies have started to feminize as they endured decades of relative peace since the end of WWII.
Dude, you do realize that the US has been in five wars (and involved in countless other conflicts) since the end of WWII, right? Is the problem that not enough men died in these wars?
The lack of warfare also means that there are now more young men per woman (practically 1 to 1) than there normally would have been under a warring society.
Huh. I guess Savage really does wish more men had died. Of course, one of the reasons the more recent wars that the US has been involved in have been less deadly, at least for Americans, is that we’ve gotten better at treating war injuries. Damn those military doctors for saving so many lives!
Excess of men—who are also emasculated and feminized—means that the collective value of average men has dropped to a historical low, upsetting the balance of sexual marketplace in the process.
Maybe this is why all these manosphere guys are so gung-ho for Trump. He would definitely get us into more wars.
Savage wraps up his portrait of today’s insufficiently violent gyno-dystopia by complaining that women are getting fat.
Many Western women have been corrupted by our toxic materialist society. They are fatter, uglier, more narcissistic, more entitled, hedonistic, superficial, less faithful, and seem to think that having bitch attitude makes them hip.
Not only that but some of these fat ugly ladies aren’t interested in having constant sex with us guys!
Women can afford to stoop low because their sex drive isn’t the same as men’s, while they couldn’t care less for love and companionship when they’re too busy with their travels and careers.
WHY OH WHY DON’T THESE UGLY WOMEN WE HATE WANT TO BE WITH US?
And because of all the thirsty men, women’s collective sexual market value hardly suffers while the value of those who are merely average becomes inflated beyond their real value.
Clearly, we’re long overdue for a truly devastating man-killing war. Apparently. only the death of hundreds of thousands of men will make Corey Savage’s boner happy again.
Quarterly delurk to say I donated again, David. Keep on keeping on. Also, everyone else – you are great as ever.
@Handsome Jack
A macbook, unfortunately the replacement Macbook Air died with way way less stress though it’s been a few months since I’ve tried it.
Shorter ROK: “I could make it with a hot babe, if only I was literally the last man on earth”.
Such alpha. Much market value. wow. Scarcity doesn’t drive up something’s value much if it isn’t any good to begin with.
I don’t know where these fools get the idea that women depend on men in times of crisis. Pretty much any time things start going wrong, it has usually been women banding together to defend themselves against havoc wrought by men.
Especially if all the blokes are fighting wars (hey, don’t these same MRAs want women to be drafted and killed, too?) the women will basically run the country to cover for the immediate skills shortage.
And then there’s this Big Daddy Government figure… some kind of ultimate sugardaddy fetish role model. As if governments work that way. As if women aren’t taxpayers. As if welfare is only paid out to feminist women who would otherwise be lovely Stepford Wives.
The psychology behind the ROK editorial is like a dunghill in the complexity of its layers.
@JoeB
Oh, a Mac? Must have been a fluke then.
@Dalillama: I’ve read Forests of the Night, but not the later books in the series. The twist ending of the first book left me a little cold, so I never actively hunted for any others.
You’ve got a sunny sombrero, what do you even need a light bulb for?
But yeah, sounds minor, and treatment for a minor burn is pain management and don’t rub it — rather like treatment for bug bites.
Speaking of bug bites, a tick latched on this weekend. Yanking it out by its mouthparts while it wriggles was all sorts of not gusting.
ID’d as a dog tick, so I’m not taking a day off to get a helpful doctor to tell me not to worry.
For minor burns, rashes, and other skin irritations, I recommend just getting an aloe plant. They live for many years and are really hearty and low maintenance. It’s more cost effective than buying lotions and ointments with aloe in them. When you need it, just snap off a leaf and split it lengthwise with a scissors or small knife and rub the sap on the affected area. The leaf you took will grow back very quickly so you basically get an endless supply of salve until the plant dies.
@weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo
My parents had bought the gel, so that was totally the most cost effective method. :p
@AltoFronto
Absolutely not. They’d lose their talking point!
We’re not getting fat, Corey, we just have a terrible allergy to assholes. Makes us swell up like my user-namesake. The allergy is so strong that we’re swollen from even sharing the planet with you. As for ugly, of course you think we’re ugly and have bitch attitudes…we all make the same face when we see you and your disgusting ilk. As my grandmother likes to say, “Personality is who I am, attitude is who *you* are”.
On a side note,
That “men and females” bullshit has always ground my gears. I also call bullshit about men’s sex drive being higher than women’s…especially if the woman in question is a redhead. It’s just that women (usually) find it easier to keep it in their pants.
As for the most important part of the article, the point of it…right, Savage wants other men to go off to war and get killed and we feminists are the misandrists?!
I apologize for the rambling…ADHD for the win
It sounds like what he means is “too many men in the US/Europe”, with the proposed solution being the West increasing its involvement in conflicts fought elsewhere. Something tells me this guy wouldn’t be prepared do ‘do his part’ and risk his life to increase the “sexual marketplace” value of men.
@Leftwingfox
Swann was setting up a future history; there’s two more series set at various times in it, after humanity (et al) has expanded to the stars.
Pshaw, everyone knows that a proper witch would heal themselves instantly and be on their merry way!
I should know, I am a witch. 😉
Though, speaking as a witch, I don’t see how it’s “good news” that someone isn’t a witch. EJ, do you think being a witch is a bad thing? 🙁
@ paradoxy
I hope one day you can get to Cornwall; it’s very witch friendly down here. We even have the UK’s only pagan state* school.
(* what I believe you’d call ‘public school’; over here state schools can be religious)
@Kat, WickedWitchOfWhatever, opposablethumbs, Mish, kupo, Dalillama
Thank you all for the support. If you’re still all around I’ll try to relay what happened. Well first off when we went I noticed that we were going to a hospital instead of a clinic, that threw me in for a loop. After filing the papers, I was shocked to hear that apparently I wasn’t here to get myself mentally diagnosed but a physical. I felt a bit of shock for that. After I changed into patient clothes, my mom and I got confrontational over me asking the doctor if I were to say “I think I might have a mental disorder.”
She got mad because I wanted to be straightforward and didn’t like the idea one bit and wanted to sugarcoat it. I didn’t like her approach because he was a doctor and he’s not going to blab about it. Some words about giving up on me, petty bullshit from her part that no one cares for, and then she left.
Then the doctor came over and immediately allowed me to go talk more in depth of my feelings, and some dark parts that I would rather keep to myself, at least for now. At first he thought ADD, but after the session he was more sure of what I had.
Congratulations me, I have been officially diagnosed with depression and possibly ADHD.
I’m now able to receive medication in a few days and I still have to get a physical checkup to make sure I’m physically well. I also still need to get an appointment from a psychiatrist but now I do have official help.
Unfortunately, the ride back to my parents house wasn’t angry nor cheerful. It was silence. I didn’t know what the doctor disclosed specifically to my parents outside the two specific things I wished left out.
My mom didn’t want to talk, and my stepdad and I went out for lunch and Independence Day. We both thought it was really bad in many places, and believed it would have been better if they just aped the Aliens Aesthetic they were going for.
Now I’m back to my own place-ish for now. I’m kind of at a loss what to think now. Well I got depression, and from what he said I got the textbook symptoms of it. What do I do about it now?
Thank you all for the support, really. One of the things I find hardest is to emphasize to anyone whose face I don’t see in person, so this community really allowed me to do that better.
I’m not a witch, but I wouldn’t mind being mistaken for one. Glinda is actually one of my favorite literary characters. She’s feminist as fuck.
For those who haven’t read the books, she’s very different than movie Glinda.
@ ooglyboggles
I’m really glad for you that at least you’ve been able to get some help/reassurance/clarity? I hope this is the start of things getting better for you.
One of the things things I found most amazing, and educational, about this site was the number of commentators who say that they have problems in communicating and interacting with people; when they’re so witty, interesting and fun. It’s really inspiring and humbling to see how people overcome their difficulties.
FWIW, I’ve always found your contributions really enjoyable and informative. That you achieve all that in spite of what you’re going through is something that’s really admirable and impressive. I truly hope things work out for you; you certainly deserve it.
@paradoxy, Alan Robertshaw: I’m a witch too…somewhat in the broom closet though
@oogyboogles: I’m glad you were able to get support and help too. If it makes you feel better, I too support you.
@Ooglyboggles, wow. Thanks for sharing all of that. I’m kind of the opposite to you – I find face-to-face interaction really hard :). Your relationship with your mum sounds extremely complicated and difficult. I’m super, super happy that you insisted on talking to the doctor on your own terms and about what you wanted to talk about.
The diagnosis of depression is terrifying for some people, while for others it’s actually a relief. If the doctor has prescribed medication, then he obviously thinks it’s (at least partly) a chemical imbalance. This is exacerbated by stress, of which you have rather a lot!
In terms of what you can do, this of course varies enormously depending on the person. I know other commenters here will have great suggestions. The first time I was diagnosed, I gave myself permission to withdraw for a while to think about what was going on, and also wait for the medication to kick in :). It takes a while. Other times, I’ve found it more helpful to get really involved in something (this ranges from anime binge-watching; gaming; yoga & other exercise). Work tends to interfere with this a bit (bad, naughty work).
When you see the psychiatrist, they will have excellent ideas and techniques to try, too. And because you’re right there talking to them, no doubt the psych will be able to offer ideas that are more ‘on point’.
It probably feels right now that nothing will change. While the situation with your parents may stay the same, your mood and your ability to cope with stuff will not – it will get better. And we’ll be cheering you on (quietly, so as not to embarrass you).
@VioletBeauregarde: Actually, there’s some interesting discourse about the phrase “in the broom closet” going on between the pagan and LGBT+ communities, of course with us LGBT+ practitioners stuck in the middle of it all.
A lot of LGBT+ people, some of them practitioners, think that the term’s appropriating the phrase “coming out of the closet” from LGBT+ people, and feel like it’s kind of making light of the scary process that is coming out as LGBT+ and all of the dangers associated with it, and thus they don’t think it’s fair for cishet practitioners to use it.
Some practitioners have even offered a better phrase: “In the forest”, since that’s where many practitioners went to practice in secret in order to protect themselves in ye olden times.
That’s the phrase I like to use now, one, because it’s just easier to learn a new phrase to avoid being offensive to anyone, and two, it’s just a really cool phrase to use, and it sounds so mysterious!
(Not saying you’re a bad person for using the phrase, just wanted to mention the interesting conversation that’s been happening about it, for future reference. 🙂 )
I’m actually quite in the forest right now when it comes to my family, since most of them are (extremely lax) Christians, so I don’t think they’d really understand or appreciate my beliefs.
I also don’t even really have the money, resources, or space to actually practice either. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
(Though I will once I move out in August. My new roommates are very accepting of my craft, and one of them is even very interested in practicing it herself, and we’ve made plans to go to their local pagan festival in September!)
@Mish
Thank you for the support and the advice. I’ll start by clearing out my game backlog.
@Alan
Thank you for the compliments, really I never considered my posts to be of quality. Just acceptable.
@Ooglyboggles
I’m glad you have at least a partial diagnosis. Make sure you communicate very well with any doctors/therapists you see about how you’re reacting to the meds. It might be helpful to keep a symptom tracker and/or journal as we tend to downplay the bad times in hindsight. If the first medication doesn’t work, don’t give up hope. Keep working with medical professionals. There are a lot of possible causes to depression so it can take a while before they get it right.
Good luck, and don’t worry about your mom (I know, easier said than done). Her issues are her own and not your burden to bear.
@Ooglyboggles:
I have always found your posts insightful, amusing, and worth reading. Thank you for making them and I hope this is the beginning of a period of healing for you.
I’m also depressive and had a difficult family life, so please accept my solidarity. What follows is some thoughts which I find useful; I hope you do too.
Remember that a diagnosis is like the discovery of a mountain: it was always there, even before people discovered it and measured its height. You are not a different person today from who you were last week.
You don’t need to worry about whether you’re strong enough to cope with depression and ADHD. You know you are, because you have been coping with it for years now. Take courage from your own fortitude.
The only difference is that now you have more information, and can move forward meaningfully.
@Paradoxy, VioletBeauregarde:
No disrespect is intended to yourselves or to your religion. If sunnysombrera wants to be a witch, I’m sure as hell not the person to tell her she can or can’t be.
@Ooglyboggles
Glad that’s over! It’s kind of amazing that it turned out to be a physical examination, which you then expanded to a consultation on mental health.
Others have had some really good comments.
I think that if it’s possible to visit a therapist to talk things through on a regular basis, you might find that really helpful. If that’s not possible, you might be able to find some peer therapy (nonprofessional therapy) at a local free clinic or some such.
Congratulations on speaking with the doctor frankly.
Best of luck!
Ooglyboggles, good for you for not only telling the doctor what you wanted to tell them, but even having the presence of mind to make it clear to them that there were some specific things you did not want mentioned to your parents. It’s notoriously difficult in a doctor-patient situation – strange place, strange people, pressure of time, hell, you were even in strange clothes – to even remember the things you need to tell them or ask!
A diagnosis and suggested medication are a bit like a sketchy map and maybe a walking-stick; a first step towards getting things that are useful in helping you navigate the terrain.
(Obviously I don’t know if this is relevant in your case: I think there are two main types of medication that are usually tried first for ADHD – atomoxetine is one (which comes in various different brand names, e.g. strattera), and methylphenidate is the other (ritalin is one of the common brand names); some people may find they get on better with one, some with the other – response seems to be a pretty individual thing – so if the first medication you’re offered doesn’t suit (after giving it a fair try, of course, as it may take a while to adjust) you might want to consider talking to your doctor about coming off it and seeing if the other is a better fit for you. Disclaimer: I’ve never taken either of these myself, this is just what I’ve observed)
Wishing you all the best, and wishing you (a) good doctor(s)!