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Daily Stormer declares bloody Sacramento rally the first big victory in “the dawning race war”

Let’s not do this again

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America’s home-grown fascists are still giddy that some of their own managed to stab a bunch of leftists during the miniature riot that broke out at the Traditionalist Worker Party rally in Sacramento on Sunday.

The Daily Stormer, everybody’s favorite neo-Nazi internet tabloid, has declared “‘The Battle of Sacramento’ … the first major battle of the dawning race war in America” and “a decisive victory for the forces of good.”

Despite being vastly outnumbered by antifa (antifascist) counterprotesters, the Daily Stormer’s Andrew Anglin writes, “the nationalists prevailed.”

And by that he means that even though they retreated in a big hurry when faced with a much larger group of counterprotesters, many of them armed with bats and rocks, they managed to stab a bunch of people in the process.

Claiming that the racist skinheads who joined the rally alongside the TWP “took the weapons that the communists and colored brought to attack them with and used them against them,” Anglin revels in what he sees as an impressive stabbing ratio:

Five of the terrorists ended up stabbed and are now in the hospital.

Only one of our guys was stabbed.

This is a monumental victory, both symbolically and literally. 

Anglin thinks that the bloody skirmish, stabbings and all, brought his side “good publicity,” adding that

the enemy is disheartened, looking weak, and I’m sure more than a few young White kids are hearing this news and beginning the process that will lead them to eventually fighting on the streets alongside us.

Unfortunately, he’s probably right, at least about that last bit.

If the antifas had deliberately set out to boost the morale of their neo-Nazi foes — and recruit new members for them — they could hardly have done a better job of it than they inadvertently did in Sacramento on Sunday.

Antifas, how about leaving the bats at home next time? Don’t give the Nazis the fight they want.

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ikanreed
ikanreed
4 years ago

I think people are legitimately afraid of neo-nazis gaining real political power in the US, in a way that hasn’t been a concern in decades.

“Don’t legitimize them with violence” is kind of a tough sell when there’s someone legitimizing them with a presidential campaign, and an entire subset of the internet legitimizing them with opinions and “facts”.

I think a lot of people, right or wrong, see this moment as a knife edge of history with one possible path bringing absolute disaster and are starting to take a harsher tone as a result.

Ouraboros13
4 years ago

Oh yes, the apocalyptic race war they so eagerly babble about. Umberto Echo wrote about 14 key features of fascism. One of them is especially relevant.

9. For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.

Thus pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. It is bad because life is permanent warfare. This, however, brings about an Armageddon complex. Since enemies have to be defeated, there must be a final battle, after which the movement will have control of the world. But such “final solutions” implies a further era of peace, a Golden Age, which contradicts the principle of permanent war. No fascist leader has ever succeeded in solving this predicament.
http://interglacial.com/pub/text/Umberto_Eco_-_Eternal_Fascism.html

Critical Dragon1177
4 years ago

David Futrelle.

Man these hate mongers are delusional. Thank goodness most people will not participate in their little race war.

Wicked Witch of Whatever
Wicked Witch of Whatever
4 years ago

“Antifas, how about leaving the bats at home next time? Don’t give the Nazis the fight they want.”

While I agree with the general sentiment, I fear that if Nazis want a fight they’ll get a fight. I’ve only got experience with the European ones, but they are perfectly happy to attack unarmed people without provocation, and are in fact are much more likely to attack the vulnerable and defenceless.

This group was clearly armed and out for a fight – the readiness to stab and the stupid home made shields and clubs show that. Obviously going armed to a protest is a stupid idea, but people who are protesting against violent fascists need to be careful about not getting isolated from their group. They should also be aware that Nazis are prone to beating up homeless people or other soft targets who happen to be in the vicinity of antifa demonstrations, so try and mitigate that. Extended and chaotic demonstrations where people want to prove their commitment by staying to the bitter end often end up releasing small groups of bored people roaming around looking for a fight.

Bina
4 years ago

Relevant:

Johanna M Roberts
Johanna M Roberts
4 years ago

…I can’t help but to feel someone took a bat for protection because nazis are scary shit and well, yeah. Sadly if they hadn’t been armed at all it might have been worse since well, these people are all about picking on and hurting those of us without a system to back us up.

OoglyBoggles
OoglyBoggles
4 years ago

The fatalist part of me sees it as inevitable and the logical conclusion of a corporatist media and the Narrativist takeover of the right wing. With more and more civil rights being defended across the board, and the undeniable fact that yes the capitalist powers within our lifetimes will gain the means of production, ultimately removing the human equation, the status and power of the middle class straight white man to them is starting to feel less secure.

This was always part of the us as part of the Right Wing propoganda machine, held in check by the rational actors who cynically uses hatred and bigotry to divide the masses to further their power and wealth. Over time though the people who bought into their propoganda found their way into the political sphere of influence and started taking over. The animals run the house, the corporatist democrats pay lip service while doing the bare minimum as to not offend their donors, and the media is already about by those same corporations.

Some of these extremists already know of these things, which are actual facts we live in a plutocracy where the rich get what they want and everyone else gets zilch. But instead of wanting to say get into the political sphere to help and benefit others or empower themselves to address the real problems of this country, they default back into Right Wing Rhetoric of blaming the flavor of the month minority to blame.

These nazis have made it clear that they’ll target a fan favorite of the fascists, whatever they deem to be communists. As we all know in this society a communist party of any sort even closely related to the EU is an impossibility, especially in a system where third parties are by design not allowed to breath.

It would be within my expectations to target the bankers read jews when they feel either particularly impulsive or when they deem the american people, or at least enough of the american people fall in line with their views.

We can look back at the entire Malheur incident and think to ourselves that was an incredibly frustrating time as right wing leaders wholeheartedly supported the sovcits and their literal acts of treasons, to the point of their utter humiliation at the Wildlife Observation Center, where they were revealed repeatedly to be an utter joke, and those right wingers who stopd for these bigots fled like the cowards they all are. I wonder how many times you can get away with that before everyone loses their peace of mind.

Of course no one other than Trump who regularly retweets inaccurate neonazi propoganda charts and graphs would support them and hesitate to outright be against the KKK. I would hardly believe that the Narrativists would ever allow themselves to bring their inner narrative out to the public in their collective ugliness. But I wouldn’t deny their increasing boldness, with “Make America White Today.”

After all say we do get more Malheur incidents where people can act like literal terrorists and so long as they are white, they get the literal privilege of being treated better by the corporate media. Even Dylan Rooth wasn’t labeled a racist bigot who is a horrid man, even up to the date of his execution.

And all the way back to my point of how this is all just to me is seeing a bunch of people bending the stick and seeing how far it’ll bend before it snaps, the people being those who wish to enact their bigotry like in previous years of US, the stick being the general media and politicians and the people subject to their actions, and the snapping being the general anarchy as people no longer feel safe.

But then again such an apocalyptic scenario wouldn’t happen yet. Sure we live in 1984 with militaristic propoganda, less rights to privacy and the NSA, but to have our leaders embrace naked fascism is something I sincerely believe the general public is not willing to allow.

LG.
LG.
4 years ago

Take a nice heavy walking staff. Looks innocent, doesn’t tend to escalate conflict, powerful for self-defense.

Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko
4 years ago

I tend to agree with the Wicked Witch of Whatever. It’s pretty difficult to protest neo-nazis pacifically. Got the living shit beat out of me several times by groups of four or five, who weren’t rallying, while I was alone and not counter-protesting, for so much as looking at them sideways. Granted, my appearance alone brands me as “the enemy” to them, so they never picked the fight randomly… but I wasn’t exactly looking for trouble. Not built for fighting either, and that’s how they pick their targets. Just a few months ago I almost got stabbed by a drunk asshole with a swastika tattooed on his neck because… because I dunno, really. Guess he didn’t like my t-shirt.

TL;DR if you’re going anywhere near those assholes, you’re faced with a choice : bring something to defend yourself and you’re definitely gonna have to use it, don’t bring anything and you might find yourself in a bad situation. Sure they’re “defending their free speech” but let’s be honest : they usually strike first.

Three choices then : beat them (they go into full victim mode), be beaten (they call it a victory), or stay away (also a victory). What do you do then ?

Oh and by the way. This is like the 404th “first major victory” they’ve had this year. Pretty much everything that’s happened since January was dubbed that. Get your shit straight, nazis.

Dan Kasteray
Dan Kasteray
4 years ago

My advice with these Neo-Nazis, blow them out of their fucking socks.

When a bully threatens you, punch him in the nose as hard as you can. Then threaten to cut their nuts off if they so much as look at you the wrong way.

You don’t deal with a coward and a bully peacefully, they’ll interpret that as a sign of weakness. Fight back and they’ll bolt like scared rabbits and later rage wank online to all their fucking coward friends.

Maybe I say this because I had family in Greece who fought actual fascists in WW2 and with Nazi sympathizers in the aftermath. These guys rode around made the fascists dig their own graves.

And I one hundred percent approve of bringing bats and rocks. That these Neo Nazi vermin aren’t languishing in a maximum security prison right now indicates a big bias in the part of the law and order system.

Moggie
Moggie
4 years ago

And these fascists plan to provide “protection” at the Republican National Convention. There’s no possible way that could turn bad.

weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo
weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo
4 years ago

Sinkable John,

Sorry you’ve been targeted by these fascist assholes. That sounds terrifying.

Hugs if you want them.

Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko
4 years ago

@weirwoodtreehugger

I’ll take all the hugs, ALL OF THEM, because life doth suck.

Incidentally, I live near Vichy. Yes, THAT Vichy. Town drove me into a psychiatric hospital last year. For entirely different reasons, sure, but it being a pilgrimage spot for nazis doesn’t help.

George Nixon Shuler
George Nixon Shuler
4 years ago

What about this term, “antifas,” ? A contraction, like Brexit, ScarJo, and Bennifer?

I’m no pacifist but I like the sentiment above about the walking stick. Be prepared for the worst.

On the other hand, knife-fighting went out with the Sharks and the Jets in West Side Story. If this is these mooncalves’ Lexington and Concord, it’s pretty evident we have little to fear in the long run.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
4 years ago

@Moggie – These guys will be really super good at telling the two sides apart, defusing situations, and not reacting with hair trigger anger to imaginary slights and people who don’t “look right”.

Violent self-appointed biker security worked really well at Altamont.

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
4 years ago

I feel sorry for the Secret Service agents who’ll be working the GOP convention.

Moggie
Moggie
4 years ago

Buttercup Q. Skullpants:

Violent self-appointed biker security worked really well at Altamont.

That’s exactly the parallel that struck me when I read the story. I suppose one difference is that, this time, the security is “unsolicited”. The GOP could still say no.

George Nixon Shuler:

On the other hand, knife-fighting went out with the Sharks and the Jets in West Side Story.

comment image

Joekster
Joekster
4 years ago

Jesus wept.

Random thought: we’ve had three tragedies in three weeks, and I think I see a pattern:

Orlando: One guy with a semi-automatic, several others with other guns, 50 dead (including the killer).

Britain: one guy with a homemade pistol and a knife: one dead, a couple wounded.

Sacramento: bunch of guys with knives, rocks, and homemade shields: 6 wounded. NO DEAD.

Sounds like a major victory for California’s gun control laws to me.

bekabot
bekabot
4 years ago

Unfortunately, he’s probably right, at least about that last bit.

Far be it from me to commit the niaiserie of being an optimist, but I’m not certain that’s so. OTOH, I couldn’t swear that you’re wrong, but I’m not sure that white nationalist extremists are all that attractive to young people or that white Millennial kids are going to line up to join their cause.

Anecdotes are not data, so I invite you to take this with a pound or two of salt…but nevertheless, here goes. Okay, so. I live in a part of the country which really is country and which lurks in the far West. Maybe about fifteen years or so ago it was one of the methamphetamine hubs of the world, and at about the same time, the Nazis/white extremists had a certain amount of capital out here, in all the senses of that phrase. Up to a point they had currency and respect, and there were some people who looked up to them. But it didn’t last: what happened is that the cops came in and busted up the meth business (thank God) and after that the White Power stuff went away.

(Nasty as the meth business is, it has to be said that, during the time they were busting it up, the cops didn’t do much killing nor did they even go in, in any major way, for the destruction or confiscation of property, and it’s hard to believe that it wasn’t because the meth business is conducted mostly by white people, with some native-Americans mixed in. Compare that with the demeanor the police assume toward the black community, where people get shot for petty theft or driving infractions or just for being in the way, and the contrast is severe — but that’s another issue.)

The White Power stuff didn’t go away all at once: it took a few years to fade. All the same, it’s pretty much gone now. Now, being a Nazi or holding ideas similar to theirs is no longer cool (to the extent that it ever was). It has about it the flavor of being a tweaker; you’re messed-up and twitchy and the cops are after you; and you stand a decent chance of having been to prison or of being headed that way. Not good. Worse, the cops are after you, not only the local police but their Federal counterparts. As a plan for the future, that’s just not attractive. Life threatens to be challenging enough for the kids who are coming up just now and I don’t know if they want to sign on for all of that. (JMO.0

bekabot
bekabot
4 years ago

Unfortunately, he’s probably right, at least about that last bit.

Far be it from me to commit the niaiserie of being an optimist, but I’m not certain that’s so. OTOH, I couldn’t swear that you’re wrong, but I’m not sure that white nationalist extremists are all that attractive to young people or that white Millennial kids are going to line up to join their cause.

Anecdotes are not data, so I invite you to take this with a pound or two of salt…but nevertheless, here goes. Okay, so. I live in a part of the country which really is country and which lurks in the far West. Maybe about fifteen years or so ago it was one of the methamphetamine hubs of the world, and at about the same time, the Nazis/white extremists had a certain amount of capital out here, in all the senses of that phrase. Up to a point they had currency and respect, and there were some people who looked up to them. But it didn’t last: what happened is that the cops came in and busted up the meth business (thank God) and after that the White Power stuff went away.

(Nasty as the meth business is, it has to be said that, during the time they were busting it up, the cops didn’t do much killing nor did they even go in, in any major way, for the destruction or confiscation of property, and it’s hard to believe that it wasn’t because the meth business is conducted mostly by white people, with some native-Americans mixed in. Compare that with the demeanor the police assume toward the black community, where people get shot for petty theft or driving infractions or just for being in the way, and the contrast is severe — but that’s another issue.)

The White Power stuff didn’t go away all at once: it took a few years to fade. All the same, it’s pretty much gone now. Now, being a Nazi or holding ideas similar to theirs is no longer cool (to the extent that it ever was). It has about it the flavor of being a tweaker; you’re messed-up and twitchy and the cops are after you; and you stand a decent chance of having been to prison or of being headed that way. Not good. Worse, the cops are after you, not only the local police but their Federal counterparts. As a plan for the future, that’s just not attractive. Life threatens to be challenging enough for the kids who are coming up just now and I don’t know if they want to sign onto that program. Personally, I doubt it.(JMO.)

Patricia Kayden
Patricia Kayden
4 years ago

Antifas, how about leaving the bats at home next time? Don’t give the Nazis the fight they want.

Hmmmm. Not sure if I agree with this. Take the bats but don’t use them first, would be my advice. I don’t believe that antifas don’t have the right to counter protest. If they attack first, they’re wrong and should face consequences. However, one of those Nazis is already on film pushing and physically assaulting a Black woman at a Trump rally. He suffered zero consequences for that assault. Counter protesters don’t have to tolerate being assaulted for exercising their First Amendment rights. So they are free to take weapons with them to defend themselves against any attacks from Nazis.

Just my 2 cents.

Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko
4 years ago

That’s an interesting correlation there between drug dealing and white supremacists – it’s not the first one I’ve heard of either, and here in France I’ve seen more than correlation.

Dunno what their stance is in the US, but here they’re the same people who call for “death penalty for drug dealers” (never mind that we’ve abolished the death penalty, they want it back). Of course they’ve only ever heard of “colored dealers corrupting the white youth with marijuana”. Now our laws prevent us from making “ethnic statistics” which means I don’t have cold hard numbers to back this up, but I’m pretty sure the american reality is somewhat similar : young colored people are much more often the victims of much nastier drugs which they supposedly “corrupt whites” with. As far as France goes, those are the same nasty drugs which I’ve seen handled and sold by… white supremacists.

The irony is so thick you could scoop it up and heat it in a spoon…

Steampunked
Steampunked
4 years ago

As an old goth and expunk I gradually watched my subculture fade from relevance. Gatherings petered out, we got old. Raging against the machine is hard when the machine lacks a face and we have kids.

This is not how we expected to become relevant again, but…

At least here, the punk movement was always antifascist.

Paradoxical Intention - Resident Cheeseburger Slut

George Nixon Shuler | June 28, 2016 at 3:35 pm
What about this term, “antifas,” ? A contraction, like Brexit, ScarJo, and Bennifer?

It is indeed a contraction, for “anti-fascist”, or in this case, “decent human being”.

And I agree with others here: Take the weapons, but don’t use them first. These cowards are gleeful for a fight, but I say let them start it.

weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo
weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo
4 years ago

Off topic. Negging totally works on female dogs*. I was watching someone about to get rejected from The Bachelorette and said “no rose for you.’ This caused Bailey to come running over and nuzzle me. Frame; held. I suspect that it would not have such an effect on cats. Will file a field report later.

* Not really. It was getting to be dinner time and the slightest little movement or sound was getting her in a tizzy.

OoglyBoggles
OoglyBoggles
4 years ago

I honestly have to agree with everyone here on defending yourself with whatever blunt instrument of your choice. Bullying and cowardice is their lifestyle.

Unlike say STEMlords and the MRA’s and Nice Guys TM, where the self defence is just an excuse to have a moral high hround to enact horrid actions of sadistic violence, this is just to keep yourselfes safe.

polygonlucy
polygonlucy
4 years ago

“Antifas, how about leaving the bats at home next time? Don’t give the Nazis the fight they want.”

David, to be amiable, I just wanted to say I like (is like the right word for something that incites such a broad range of emotions?) your blog.

But the quote above stinks of privilege. While the white kids go home and argue on the internet about what tactics to use to combat the boneheads, the boneheads doing the stabbing are often out looking for people of colour to beat up.

I don’t expect anyone to revel in violence. Violence is horrible. Even violence perpetrated on bonehead nazi scum. But I do think it’s reasonable to expect that white allies of people of colour show solidarity to people of colour even if they choose to use violence when dealing with nazis. You can be a pacifist and not be assaulted. They cannot.

Otherwise, keep up the awesome site 🙂

Axecalibur
Axecalibur
4 years ago

@John

Now our laws prevent us from making “ethnic statistics”

I hate that. You can’t just ignore ethnicity. It doesn’t make you ‘post racial’ (do y’all have this term too?) to pretend nothing’s wrong. I bet they were patting themselves on the backs with how progressive they thought they were being. I mean, Muricans don’t do much to fix the problems, but at least we acknowledge the numbers

Also demographics is just an interest of mine generally. The categories and percents and all that. Fascinating

And there’s been another terrorist attack

Dammit, David

calmdown
calmdown
4 years ago

I can’t stop thinking that Charles Manson must be so thrilled. I am not thrilled however, I am scared because I AM NOT A FUCKING SERIAL KILLER and I don’t want a fucking “race war” or really any kind of war ideally.

Steampunked
Steampunked
4 years ago

The anti-mugger devices that scream really loudly are an excellent deterrent. They can be turned off by the owner, and no one wants to be around the damn things.

bekabot
bekabot
4 years ago

Sorry about the double post. So embarrassing…

Tod Kelly
4 years ago

OOC: Is a vile, horrible, repugnant movement ever so small and insignificant that it isn’t best to not protest, armed or not? To not give a group no one would have ever even know existed to the media spotlight and their 15 minutes of national fame?

Or is it better to give its 15 minutes, so we can all see it?

Not posing this as a challenge… seriously curious.

tesformes
tesformes
4 years ago

Tod, such groups may exist, but I don’t believe the Neo-Nazis are one of them, and the fact is that letting bigotry go unchallenged has dangerous ripple effects.

runsinbackground
runsinbackground
4 years ago

There’s a book that I have in my library, A Time of Gifts by Patrick Leigh Fermor. It’s a travel memoir about a walking tour of Europe that the author took in 1939, as a sort of interbellum gap year. The passage that comes to mind at times like these involves a conversation that the author had with a young German man who was evidently a member of the brownshirts; when questioned about his politics, he says that he used to be a member of the Communist Party, and had taken part in street fights with the rival Nationalists. When he heard Hitler speak and was exposed to fascist propaganda he quickly changed tack, however, and he speaks glowingly of beating Communists in the Strasse. Some people just like gang fights.

Jarnsaxa
Jarnsaxa
4 years ago

Not to be Regina George here, but.

STOP TRYING TO MAKE RACE WAR HAPPEN.

IT’S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
4 years ago

Wow, I don’t think the White Race has had such an awesome win in a knife fight since West Side Story

mildlymagnificent
mildlymagnificent
4 years ago

Rolled up umbrellas are good to have with you. You’re ready for any chance of rain or glaring sunshine. You can lean on a sturdy one like a walking stick if you get tired. No one can object unless you put it up and are careless about other people’s eyes-ears-noses.

As for yet-another-atrocity …

there’s a barrel of hugs in the corner for those that want them and a bucket of sloths for everyone.
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/4580653/bucket-of-sloths-o.gif

Arawhon, Beast of the Matriochalypse
Arawhon, Beast of the Matriochalypse
4 years ago

Some more info about this fight initiated by the Nazis from Antifa protesters that were there.

Fascists exploit the white liberal tendency to live and let live to spread their hate and violence filled ideology, and when PoC fight back, they get called the aggressors and the bad people. Fascist are going to spin the fight in their favor no matter what happened. They don’t fight back? The liberals are all weak so we are winning! Antifa fights back? Oh poor us, we were only doing a peaceful legal protest and you should tolerate our hate. Fuck this shit. I’m a white dude and I can see this shit plainly for what it is.

“White Power!” said the Fascist, who just stabbed another latino citizen. “Fuck you Nazi” says the Antifa PoC as they beat the Nazi senseless. “Violence never solves anything” the white Liberal says to the Antifa from his lofty perch atop the moral high ground.

Bryce
Bryce
4 years ago

Not sure if I agree with this. Take the bats but don’t use them first, would be my advice.

That could still be seen as a form of provocation. If one group approaches the other while shouting and openly wielding bats, it could in theory be used as grounds for self-defence regardless of who initiated.

Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
4 years ago

This is going to sound completely selfish, but I need to know the likeliness of fascists like these targeting Asian Americans like me and my folks and my friends. Part of me already knows as the “model minority”, mostly everyone I know will probably be alright and would probably rank the lowest on their priority list compared to say African Americans, middle eastern American, Latino and such.

On the other hand fascists just want to brawl whoever so hell if I know.

Kat
Kat
4 years ago

According to the Nation, a venerable left-wing magazine, both sides came prepared to do violence. But the left doesn’t need to beat the snot out of Nazis. That’s not how democracy works. We need to keep on educating the public about the evils of the extreme right wing.

That said, yeah, sometimes you have to defend yourself. But the Nation doesn’t seem to think that the Sacramento rally is an example of that:

By mid-morning . . . . each entrance to the capitol was covered by large throngs of anti-Nazis. Roving groups, many of them masked, patrolled the park trying to spot incoming fascists. . . .

The neo-Nazis started making their way into the capitol grounds at about 11:30. Within minutes, the beautiful park surrounding the soaring, domed capitol was a bloodbath.

Every time the crowd spotted a skinhead or other white nationalist trying to move toward the steps, they surged forward, north, south, east, west, chasing down and beating the skinhead. But the Nazis had also come armed and prepared. Wielding knives and sticks, they hurled themselves into the enraged crowd.

https://www.thenation.com/article/neo-nazis-and-leftists-brawl-in-sacramento/

I posted a comment similar to this one under another WHTM article.

Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko
4 years ago

@Axe

France’s approach to racism/antiracism is the color-blind strategy. Needless to say, the law prevents us from making statistics that would point out the ugly realities of our “land of (white) human rights”, but racism itself is far from illegal. Especially since we’re also color-blind when it comes to the victims of hate crimes. Wanna point out that all the victims of police violence were people of color ? That’s illegal. Wanna destroy the far-right “argument” that most crimes are PoC-on-white ? You can’t, because just having the numbers is illegal. And so on.

And you’re right : they do pretend it’s so progressive, pride themselves on laws just like that.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

I think this has been posted before but I think there is a lot of truth in it.

When white people were threatened by fascism we had a world war and handed out medals (and we also expected everyone else to help out; got a picture somewhere about that)

http://www.peacetimes.news/wordpress_e/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Moderates3.jpg

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

The dashing chap in the turban is Mohinder Singh Pujji.

When Britain was under threat from the fascists he volunteered to help; and he was far from the only non-white person to do so. Maybe it’s time to repay the favour?

(For military history buffs he’s well worth reading up on.)

http://i.imgur.com/ZMdT9CO.jpg

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
4 years ago

@Sinkable John : the french way both don’t do what you mean, and have a lot of advantage you don’t speak of.

It’s dead wrong to pretend it’s illegal to say that police is racist. It’s exactly as legal as anywhere else for newspapers to do stats on that, and policemen *have* instructions against doing exactly that. It’s not like *doing* thoses stats seem to help the US anyway.

It’s also borderline to not indicate the advantage of that, the main one being to avoid targetting arabs specifically because of the result of orientated stats.

In other words, it’s good and all to try to trash the “no discriminatory statistics” french policy, but it’s also stupid. It’s not an easy decision to do one or the another, there is advantages to both (more advantages to the french position for me, but that’s arguable), and more importantly it’s not something that do a world of difference.

Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko
4 years ago

@Ohlmann

But when has it ever proved useful ? Ménard, maybe. He got away with it though, it ended up just being another one of his numerous stunts. Come to think of it, he’s been awfully quiet of late, must be preparing something big to baffle us with.

On the other hand, it robs us of actual data that could be used to counter extremist rhetoric. Right now most of it heavily relies on them pulling numbers out of their asses to make them fit whatever premise they want. Whereas we do know their data is fabricated, we have strictly nothing to counter it unless we start fabricating our own (which some do) and that’s not exactly an answer. Let’s face it : most of our laws on hate speech have so far done much more harm than good (just take a look at who usually gets sued for “hate speech” and why). If you can’t have cold hard facts, fallacies have a much bigger impact. And right now any debate on hate crimes always ends with “you can’t prove that”. It’s getting us nowhere.

I agree that oriented stats could be used to target minorities. But that strategy doesn’t actually work, because it’s always so blatantly obvious. Just look at what happens in America : whenever the Daily Stormer and other assorted asshats try to pull that off, it takes roughly 30 seconds to point out the flaws in their reasoning.

We have a special “authorizations” thing that’s only ever been used twice, in the context of immigration stats. What I’m advocating for is to use that a bit more often, and for meaningful reasons.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
4 years ago

“But when has it ever proved useful ? Ménard, maybe. He got away with it though, it ended up just being another one of his numerous stunts. Come to think of it, he’s been awfully quiet of late, must be preparing something big to baffle us with. ”

Wrong. The usual case is that it’s useful to actually put help to people when they need it, and not by their color. Like putting priority educational zone where people are poor and not where they are arabs ; and because of the strong correlation between poverty and being arab, thing work actually well, but without any possible bugs due to a city with a lot of rich saudi.

“On the other hand, it robs us of actual data that could be used to counter extremist rhetoric.”

In theory yes, in practice thoses same stats never were all that useful. Or were actually more useful to extremist rhetoric than anything else.

Ask any alt righter. He will gladly provide you with thousands of statistical studies that help his point. You may have a thousand too, but you can’t decently say thoses studies actually help. Each side only look at its own stats.

Also, government doing sleazy stats to make his decisions look motivated happen all the freakin’ time. Preventing them to do racist one at least help a bit.

Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko
4 years ago

The usual case is that it’s useful to actually put help to people when they need it, and not by their color.

I never disagreed with that, I’m only talking about data.

And as far as data goes, I stand by my point that it’s better to actually have it, even if it can be misused, than not have it at all and anyone can pull anything out of their ass to prove their point.

Because misused data is so easy to spot. Agreed, alt-righters are oh so fond of using stats to back their premises… but does it work ? It doesn’t, because it’s so obvious. Doesn’t take much effort to show how they’re misusing the data, and pulling interpretations and results out of their asses. Don’t believe me ? It’s this very blog’s bread and butter. And David Futrelle doesn’t work on french bigots either, meaning the morons he reports on, mocks, and whose ideology he deconstructs do have those stats. Does it make it any harder ? Not really.

On the other hand, french alt-righters are an entirely different basket of eels. Namely, the very slippery kind. My original point was their “arabs corrupt the white youth with drugs” speeches : if we had access to actual numbers, we could show that the reality is completely different. The only data I have on that is my own experience in the streets of various cities, and the personal stories of people from all over the country. Do those really count ? They don’t. Numbers, stats, would help. Doesn’t hurt that we already know the results. But it’s really needed to take down their rhetoric. Right now people rely on the tired clichés of the “arab dealers from the suburbs” (for american readers, suburbs in France are where poverty is typically concentrated, as opposed to America). Said clichés are heavily supported by blatantly racist media spins : actual numbers would help take those down as well.

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